REL GENRL Iran's Supreme Leader Says He Represents Prophet Muhammad on Earth

Well....was wondering who would be the "False Prophet" with the Antichrist.

Rev 16:13 (KJV) "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

Dragon: China (+North Korea/Asian allies)
Beast: Russia (+CIS allies)
False Prophet: Iran (+Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas)

Iran's Supreme Leader Says He Represents Prophet Muhammad on Earth

Edward Yeranian | Cairo 21 July 2010

http://www1.voanews.com/english/new...sents-Prophet-Muhammad-on-Earth-98945624.html

Iran's Supreme Leader has reportedly issued a fatwah, or Islamic edict, demanding that people obey him as the earthly "deputy" of both the Prophet Muhammad and Shi'ism's mysterious 12th Imam. He also accused the U.S. and Britain of sowing division among Muslims and of fomenting the recent mosque bombing in Sistan-Baluchestan.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has created a stir after apparently issuing a religious edict Tuesday claiming ultimate spiritual powers on Earth. Iranian media reported that he told followers that they must "obey him" as the "representative of the Prophet Muhammad and [Shi'ism's] 12th Imam on Earth."

Iranian television also broadcast a communiqué by the Ayatollah claiming the United States and Britain were behind last week's suicide bombings at a Shi'ite mosque in Sistan-Baluchestan province. "All Muslims," he said, "must combat the evil and corrupt [powers] waging war on Earth."

Other top Iranian officials had previously accused Britain, the United States, Israel and al-Qaida of responsibility for the blasts that killed 28 people and wounded hundreds of others. The Sunni Balluch rebel group Jundallah claimed on its website that it was behind the suicide attacks.

The names and photos of the two alleged suicide bombers were posted on its website. Jundallah claimed the attacks were to avenge Iran's hanging of its leader Abdolmalek Rigi on June 20.

His controversial claim to represent the Prophet Muhammad and the 12th Imam on Earth, followed strong, recent criticism by several Iranian religious leaders, questioning his policies. Mohsen Kadivar, an exiled Shi'ite cleric, went so far as to demand his "impeachment," recently.

University of Birmingham Professor Scott Lucas, who writes the popular Iran blog "Enduring America" says Ayatollah Khamenei's controversial fatwah could be a way of lashing out at those adversaries now attacking him.

"It is the first time that Khamenei has specifically gone so far as to claim that kind of authority, and there is a theological debate as to whether this constitutes heresy, in the sense that some interpretations of Shia Islam say that no one can claim to represent the Prophet and the Imams on Earth," he said. "Khamenei, feeling pressure on a number of fronts, regarding his clerical and political authority, feels the need to assert, effectively, 'You must obey me."

But Professor Hilal Khashan of the American University of Beirut says Ayatollah Khamenei rules Iran under the Wilayat al Faqih principle, which does give him broad powers to represent Shi'ism's Hidden or 12th Imam.

"It depends if you believe in Wilayet al Faqih concept," he said. "Now, Shi'ites who subscribe to Wilayat al Faqih concept would accept this, because, actually, this is the designation of the Supreme Leader of Iran. He is the 'deputy of the hidden Imam until his return, to lead humanity', quote unquote, 'into redemption and salvation.' So, for the believers, there is nothing unusual about the statement."

But Khashan notes many Shi'ites, who are not fundamentalists, do not believe in the Ayatollah Khamenei's extraordinary powers on Earth, and that they frown on anyone claiming to represent the Imam. Lucas, says many top Iranian religious leaders are now questioning Supreme Leader Khamenei's authority, amid a growing political and religious ferment.
 
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.........

good grief. What's next? An arm wrestle with the Ayatollah and those on this forum who claim they or their loved ones personally talk to GOD ALMIGHTY?



A. Could get mighty interesting.

B. Contributes to the argument (also of the Founding Father's) that religious nuts should NOT be allowed to head governments.
 

Jubilation T. Cornpone

Veteran Member
good grief. What's next? An arm wrestle with the Ayatollah and those on this forum who claim they or their loved ones personally talk to GOD ALMIGHTY?



A. Could get mighty interesting.

B. Contributes to the argument (also of the Founding Father's) that religious nuts should NOT be allowed to head governments.

Most Americans talk to God all the time.
It's called prayer.
Try it. You'll like it.
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Well something is in the wind.



R E L I G I O N
The Concept of Mahdi in Twelver Shi’ism


http://www.cultureofiran.com/concept_of_mahdi_01.html


One also encounters signs of hesitation and grasping for ideas concerning the nature and modalities of the occultation. Different theories appear to have co-existed in the decades following the death of the eleventh Imam. One discerns a trace of this in reports regarding a character as influential as Abu Sahl Nowbaḵti (d. 923), who would have played a determining role in the establishment of a definitive form of the theology of occultation. Indeed, the sources attribute two different conceptions of the occultation to him. According to the first, cited by Ebn Bābuya, based on Ketāb al-tanbih wa’l-emāma, a work by Abu Sahl now apparently lost, the Hidden Imam “exists in the world by his spiritual substance thanks to a subsisting essence”. According to a second theory reported by Ebn Nadim (d. 990; in AL-FEHREST), Abu Sahl is said to have maintained that the twelfth Imam died, but secretly left behind a son as a successor to him; the lineage of Imams would thus be perpetuated in occultation from father to son until the final Imam manifests himself publicly as the Mahdi.
Eventually, none of the theories were sustained, but here one recognizes tentative efforts (undoubtedly among the oldest) to rationalize the concept of occultation. During the same period, Abu Jafar Ebn Qebba (d. before 931) wrote some texts with the same objective. The rationalizing theorization of the concept of occultation continued in full force with Shaikh Mofid (d. 1022) and his disciples, Šarif Mortażā (d. 1044), Mo-ḥammad b. Ali Karājaki (d. 1057), and Shaikh Abu Jafar Ṭusi, known as Šayḵ al-Ṭāefa (d. 1067), thinkers who explicitly had recourse to dialectical demonstration drawing notably from some older Mutazilite.

During this period the Imami community underwent what one might consider a serious identity crisis. This “time of confusion” is one of groping in the dark, of research, development, and the more or less painful establishment of doctrines related to the authority and legitimacy of the twelfth Imam. These doctrines were faced with, and overcame, much resistance before eventually standing as articles of faith. The transition from Imami Shi’ism to Twelver Shi’ism was certainly not achieved seamlessly. In the introduction of his Ketāb al-Ḡayba, Ebn Abi Zaynab Nomāni laments the fact that a large majority of his co-religionists still did not know the identity of the Hidden Imam, or even go so far as to contest his existence. Ebn Bābuya makes a similar observation when he says that he was inundated by questions from the Shi’ites of Khorasan regarding the identity of the Hidden Imam and this, in fact, was what prompted him to write his Kamāl al-din.
The main preoccupation of Twelver Shi’ite thinkers at this time was to demonstrate the actual existence of the son of Imam Ḥasan al-Askari, and to establish his legitimate authority as the Hidden Imam. This objective was attained thanks to the sustained efforts of a certain number of thinkers and transmitters of traditions, some of whom have already been cited: Nowbaḵti, Abu Jafar Ebn Qebba, Kolayni, Nomāni, and especially Ebn Bābuya and his masterly Kamāl al-din, the principal architect of the canonization of elements relating to the Hidden Imam, his occultation, and status as eschatological Savior.
Consequently, when Shaikh Ṭusi (d. 1067) wrote his Ketāb al-Ḡayba, a substantial monograph on the subject, articles of faith regarding the Mahdi of the Twelver Imamis appeared already well established: that the son of the eleventh Imam is indeed the twelfth and final Imam; that he had two occultations: during the first and much shorter one, he communicated with believers through the intermediary of four delegates. During the second, which is to last until the end of time, he remains providentially living in his physical body in order to return to save the world as Mahdi. We shall now examine these points in greater detail.
Partition

Birth and occultation of the Mahdi

What precisely do traditional accounts of the Mahdi relate? Versions that would eventually be considered “orthodox” began to emerge in the first half of the 10th century and only attained their definitive form in the following century. The eschatological Savior of Imamism is presented as Abu’l-Qāsem Moḥammad b. Ḥasan al-Askari, twelfth and last among the Imams. He therefore bears the same name and konya as the Prophet, thus fulfilling the hadith that probably goes back to Āṣem b. Bahdala (d. 744-45) from Kufa. It undoubtedly owes its origin to Moḵtār’s rebellion in favor of Moḥammad b. al-Ḥanafiya, son of ʿAli, who, once when he was described as Mahdi, declared that his privilege consisted in bearing the same name and konya as the Prophet.

However, according to Kolayni and others it was inadvisable to call the Mahdi by his name, to protect the Savior from the threat posed by the Abbasid court. He was called by any one of his surnames: mahdi (the Guided One), montaẓar (the Awaited One), ṣāḥeb al-zamān (Lord of the Time), al-ḡāeb (the Occulted/Hidden One), ḥojjat Allāh (Proof of God), ṣāḥeb al-amr (Lord of the Cause), baqiyat Allāh (Remainder of God) and, most often, qāem (a complex term meaning among other things: the standing, one who stands up, one who rises, the resurrector). The latter title, which among the Imamis gradually replaced that of Mahdi, was employed in Shi’ite circles to designate the Imam who “stood up” to fight against unjust and illegitimate power.

According to some accounts, his mother, to whom various names are given (Narjis, Rayḥāna, Sawsan, Maryam), was a black slave of Nubian origin (the first three names, being those of flowers and plants, and often given to female slaves, seems to confirm this version); according to other accounts, undoubtedly legendary and hagiographic, she was the grand-daughter of the Byzantine emperor, himself a disciple of the Apostle Simon. According to this version, the Byzantine princess was captured by Muslim troops and sold as a slave in Baghdad to a man belonging to the entourage of the tenth Imam, Ali al-Naqi who then came to Sāmarrā and offered the girl to Ḥakima, the latter’s sister. Even before her captivity, the princess had a dream vision of Mary, mother of Jesus, as well as of Fāṭema, daughter of the Prophet Moḥammad, both of whom had asked her to convert to Islam and let herself be captured by the Muslim armies as she was destined for a glorious life. In Sāmarrā, the tenth Imam, having by clairvoyance recognized in her the future mother of the Mahdi, gave her in marriage to his son Ḥasan, the future eleventh Imam. Signs of the mother’s pregnancy as well as the birth of the child were miraculously concealed, since the Abbasids sought to eliminate an expected child whom persistent rumors described as a Savior. The date most often cited for his birth is 15 Šabān 256/18th July 870 (one of the most important Imami festivals). The father showed the newborn to some forty intimate disciples, and then the child was hidden. According to many accounts, the eleventh imam is said to have adopted a two-fold tactic to guarantee the child’s security. First, apart from his intimate circle, the Imam kept the birth of the child secret, going so far as to designate his mother, Ḥodayṯ, as his sole heir. Now, it is known that according to Imami law, under some conditions the inheritance belongs to the mother of the deceased when the latter does not leave behind a child. Secondly, Imam Ḥasan al-Askari had recourse to a ruse to cloud the issue and distract attention. Some time before his death in 874, he allowed a rumor to spread that his servant Ṣaqil was pregnant with his child. Informants of the caliph al-Motamed (r. 870-92) closely observed the activities of the Imam, who was kept under surveillance in the military camp at Sāmarrā. When, following a serious illness, the Imam’s death seemed inevitable, the caliph dispatched his trusted men to the site. After the eleventh Imam died, his servant was arrested for observation. During the year that followed, she showed no signs of pregnancy and was released and promptly forgotten. The caliph and his entourage were then convinced that the deceased eleventh Imam left behind no descendants. According to Imami authors, divine providence had been accomplished. The twelfth Imam, the awaited Savior, was thus saved and grew up in. This “gilded legend” meets the obvious hagiographic requirements, but at the same time it reflects the uncertainties that continued to be felt in Imami circles regarding the very existence of a child of Imam Ḥasan al-Askari. This led, as we have seen, to a number of schisms. It is certainly no accident that the sources present “the concealed birth” as one of the distinctive signs of the Savior.

Not unlike previous imams, the Mahdi had a birth and childhood bathed in the miraculous. Supernatural signs, divine lights, and celestial messengers accompanied him from his very birth. From his early childhood on, he demonstrated initiatory knowledge and manifested supernormal powers. Our sources regularly relate that even while in hiding, the young twelfth Imam was visited by initiated adepts of his father, and the latter never missed an occasion to reveal to his followers that his son was indeed the qāem. Upon the death of his father in 260/874, the twelfth Imam entered his first occultation while still a child, later termed the Minor Occultation, which lasted 70 lunar years, i.e., until 329/940. During this period, the Hidden Imam is said to have communicated with his believers through four intermediary delegates or representatives: (1) Abu Amr Oṯmān b. Said Amri/Omari; (2) Abu Jafar Moḥammad Amri/ʿOmari, son of the above; (3) Abu’l-Qāsem Ḥosayn b. Ruḥ, from the influential family of the Banu Nowbaḵt; and (4) Abu’l-Ḥasan Ali b. Moḥammad Semmari.

The most important activities of these “representatives” would have included ensuring that canonical precepts were respected by the believers, the collection and distribution of taxes, delivering questions of a religious nature to the Hidden Imam, making his responses known in public and, finally, performing miracles to convince those believers who were prey to perplexity and confusion. Ebn Bābuya dedicates several pages of his Kamāl al-din to enumerating and describing the supernatural powers of the representatives, perceived by the faithful to be the result of direct initiation by the Hidden Imam.

According to official tradition, in 329/940, the fourth and last delegate received a final letter signed by the Hidden Imam in which he declared that henceforth and “until the end of time,” no one will see him or be his representative, and that whosoever declares otherwise is no less than an imposter. This important document, apparently reported for the first time by Ebn Bābuya in his Kamāl al-din, heralds the second, or Major Occultation, which according to Twelver Shiite doctrine still continues and will last until the eschatological return of the Mahdi.

Let us end this section by recalling an interesting phenomenon at the time of the occultation that increases devotion to the Hidden Imam and strengthens faith in his invisible presence: accounts of meetings with the Mahdi. Regarding encounters during the Major Occultation, henceforth a question arises to which some Imami thinkers have responded: how to consider accounts of meetings during the Major Occultation authentic when in his final letter to his last representative the Imam declares any encounter to be impossible until the end of time? It is important to note that Ebn Bābuya, who reports this letter in his Kamāl al-din, does not hesitate to relate in the same work some accounts of meetings with the Hidden Imam after his Major Occultation.

From the very beginning, ocular vision of the imam, to which the letter refers, seems to have been understood not in a general sense, but as a condition of the Hidden Imam’s representative. Thus, what is declared impossible during the major occultation (thus until the end of time) is not an encounter with the Hidden Imam as such, but laying claim to the niāba of the latter by citing a meeting with the Hidden Imam as grounds. A believer may be granted the privilege of meeting the Imam, but if following this he declares himself to be the “representative” of the Imam due to the encounter, he is considered (according to terms of the letter) no less than a liar and impostor.

These encounters may occur anywhere, but certain sites seem to be more propitious: Mecca; beside the Imams’ mausoleums; the Cave (sardāb) in Sāmarrāʾ where the Hidden Imam is said to have begun his occultation; the mosque of Sahla in Najaf, and the sanctuary of Jamkarān, not far from Qom.Typologically, one can distinguish three categories of narratives of encounters, based on the principal dimension promoted: a humanitarian dimension in which the great generosity of the Hidden Imam towards his believers and his concern for their well-being are emphasized; an initiatory dimension in which the Imam teaches his believers prayers, transmits spiritual knowledge, and bears secrets etc.; and finally, an eschatological dimension, presented mainly by late mystical sources, in which the encounter prompts a believer’s individual spiritual resurrection.
Partition

The end of time and rising of the Mahdi

The “end of time” or, in other words, the date of the final advent of the Hidden Imam, is unknown and believers are urged to await deliverance patiently and piously. The future coming of the Savior is the most frequently cited subject in predictions made by the Prophet, Fāṭema, and the Imams: entire lengthy chapters are dedicated to the topic in the sources. This coming is heralded by a number of signs (alāmāt). The universal signs are the widespread invasion of the earth by Evil, the overcoming of knowledge by ignorance, and the loss of a sense of the sacred and all that links man to God and his neighbors. These, in some measure, require the manifestation (ẓohur) and the rising (ḵoruj, qiām) of the Qāem, or else humanity will be overwhelmed by darkness.

Furthermore, there are certain specific signs among which five recur more regularly and are hence justifiably called the “five signs”: (1) the coming of Sofyāni, the enemy of the Qāem, who will command an army in battle against the latter; (2) the advent of Yamāni, who appears in the Yemen to preach support for the Qāem; (3) the Cry/Scream (ṣayḥa, nedā ) of supernatural origin, coming from the sky and calling man to defend the Imam’s cause; (4) the swallowing (ḵasf) of an army composed of the Imam’s enemies in a desert often located between Mecca and Medina, according to a hadith most likely propagated by Abd-Allāh b. Zobayr during his war propaganda against the Umayyad caliph Yazid (r. 680-83), during the latter’s campaign against Mecca and Medina, popularized by the traditionist of Basra, Qatāda; and (5) the assassination by the Meccans of the messenger to the Qāem, often called Nafs or al-Nafs al-Zakiya (echoing the messianic rebellion and death in 762 of the Hasanid Moḥammad b. Abd-Allāh, surnamed al-Nafs al-Zakiya).

The Mahdi thus becomes manifest, all the while having miraculously maintained his youth. He fights and definitively uproots Evil and pervasive ignorance, re-establishing the world to its original pure. For this to occur, he must first avenge the assassination of Imam Ḥosayn in order that the majority of Muslims be purged of the most villainous crime that it ever committed. Moreover, according to the eschatological doctrine of raja (q.v.), a certain number of past saints, victims of their community’s injustice, and their persecutors come back to life in order that the good may take revenge on the evil ones. The Savior will thus not only re-establish Islam, but all religions, to their purity and original integrity, making “submission to God” (eslām) the universal religion. He will also bring wisdom to mankind by revealing the esoteric secrets of sacred.

In this final battle against the forces of Evil, the Qāem is obviously not alone. First, he will be accompanied by certain important characters from the sacred history of humanity; thus, according to different hadiths one finds various prophets of the past such as Jesus and the Prophet Moḥammad, and various Imams, most often Ali and/or Ḥosayn. In this war, the Mahdi commands an army in which, apart from the masses of oppressed who enlist depending on the progress of his victories, three kinds of “warriors” are present: (1) angels, especially the 313 angels that accompanied the 313 fighters from Badr, the site of a battle of the Prophet against the Meccans; (2) a terrifying celestial entity named Fear (rob); who marches at the head of the Mahdi’s army and terrifies his enemies; and (3) most importantly, 313 Companions of the Qāem forming his militia (jayš), a term whose letters also add up to the value of 313. These are specially initiated disciples bearing secret knowledge and possessing miraculous powers. The Savior will no doubt triumph, and the entire world will be brought to submission. Forces of injustice and ignorance will once and for all be exterminated, the earth embellished with justice and wisdom, and humanity revived by knowledge. The Mahdi thus prepares the world for the ultimate trial of the final resurrection of the Last Judgment. According to some traditions, he will reign upon the earth for some time (7, 9, 19 . . . years), after which occurs the death of all humanity just prior to the Judgment. Other traditions report that after the death of the Qāem, the government of the world will remain in the hands of the initiated for a certain period before the Day of Resurrection.
 

twincougars

Deceased
OK don't kill me, but isn't this the same thing the Pope claims. Different God but same claim?

I was thinking the same thing. Both are probably wrong, IMO, but then I'm not Catholic (thank goodness-no offense intended--I just don't like a religion having that amount of carrot/stick control over my life that Catholicism (or several other religions) does).
 
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Cabal

Pissed off Patriot
Rev 16:13 (KJV) "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

I sometimes wonder if we're not misled by all...
Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad...
Maybe God just wants us to be good and kind without having to jump through all of the hoops?
 

jenzie

Membership Revoked
yeah, and what's the POPE then?
a QUEEZANAUT?????

who the hell cares what these crackpots say :boohoo:
 

y2ksurvivor

Veteran Member
I sometimes wonder if we're not misled by all...
Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad...
Maybe God just wants us to be good and kind without having to jump through all of the hoops?



+1000


Most of the world's ills can be traced back to these middle Eastern religions, each claiming with their own "evidence" that theirs is the only way.

:screw:
 

RJC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Spirit Of Truth said:
Dragon: China (+North Korea/Asian allies)
Beast: Russia (+CIS allies)
False Prophet: Iran (+Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas)
:xpnd:
You’re always telling jokes, you’re so funny!
 

CraigWest

Contributing Member
Of course Iran, or one of her proxies, would never bomb a mosque just so that they could blame it on the US/UK. No historical precedent for that sort of operation! IMO, Ahmadinejad is a serious crazy. He is a very polished and glib individual. Sort of reminds me of Obama in that regard. Cult of personality in both cases. :zzz:
 

FarmerJohn

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Same God, (For arab christians, "Allah" is Gods name in arabic),different interpretations, style and prophets.

Both claim to worship the God of Abraham; Islam reveres Jesus as [one of] the prophets.
 

Ender

Inactive
Same God, (For arab christians, "Allah" is Gods name in arabic),different interpretations, style and prophets.

Both claim to worship the God of Abraham; Islam reveres Jesus as [one of] the prophets.

I explain this all the time but it seems to really piss people off.

;)
 

BoatGuy

Inactive
I explain this all the time but it seems to really piss people off.

;)


Ender, it doesn't piss me off. But, I do believe it is incorrect.

I once thought the same thing. But, then I sat down and actually read the texts of both religions. That was when I determined, for myself, that the religions are diametrically opposed.

In point of fact, the muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted by the Jews. So, why should they revere it, at all? Jesus, to the muslims, was not the Son. He was a prophet and a very good "man". to them.

I'm sorry. But, they do not seem to be worshiping the same god that I do..
 

Ender

Inactive
Ender, it doesn't piss me off. But, I do believe it is incorrect.

I once thought the same thing. But, then I sat down and actually read the texts of both religions. That was when I determined, for myself, that the religions are diametrically opposed.

In point of fact, the muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted by the Jews. So, why should they revere it, at all? Jesus, to the muslims, was not the Son. He was a prophet and a very good "man". to them.

I'm sorry. But, they do not seem to be worshiping the same god that I do..

The OT and the NT Gods seem very different. Does this mean Jews and Christians worship a different God?

Most Christian sects don't worship the same God. Some are fire & brimstone- some are love & peace.

The point is that Jews, Muslims and Christians all profess to worship the God of Abraham; in Arabic the word for God is called "Allah".
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
The OT and the NT Gods seem very different. Does this mean Jews and Christians worship a different God?

Most Christian sects don't worship the same God. Some are fire & brimstone- some are love & peace.

The point is that Jews, Muslims and Christians all profess to worship the God of Abraham; in Arabic the word for God is called "Allah".

No they do not that is why there is a schism between the religions, culturally the Islamists are completely anti feminist

There is no God (except me) and for the reason the main religions proclaim a God so can I, it is me
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
I explain this all the time but it seems to really piss people off.

;)

In Islam, the Prophet Jesus (Arabic: عيسى عليه السلام‎ `Īsā Alayhi As Salam) is considered to be a Messenger of God who was sent to guide the People of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel.[1] In sharp contrast to Christianity, Islam emphatically denies that Jesus was the Son of God, or that he was divine in any way. While accepting his Virgin Birth, Islam denies that Jesus was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind; it especially scorns any notions that Jesus is to be worshipped or prayed to.
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
Well....was wondering who would be the "False Prophet" with the Antichrist.



Dragon: China (+North Korea/Asian allies)
Beast: Russia (+CIS allies)
False Prophet: Iran (+Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas)

Iran's Supreme Leader Says He Represents Prophet Muhammad on Earth

Edward Yeranian | Cairo 21 July 2010

http://www1.voanews.com/english/new...sents-Prophet-Muhammad-on-Earth-98945624.html

Iran's Supreme Leader has reportedly issued a fatwah, or Islamic edict, demanding that people obey him as the earthly "deputy" of both the Prophet Muhammad and Shi'ism's mysterious 12th Imam. He also accused the U.S. and Britain of sowing division among Muslims and of fomenting the recent mosque bombing in Sistan-Baluchestan.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has created a stir after apparently issuing a religious edict Tuesday claiming ultimate spiritual powers on Earth. Iranian media reported that he told followers that they must "obey him" as the "representative of the Prophet Muhammad and [Shi'ism's] 12th Imam on Earth."

Iranian television also broadcast a communiqué by the Ayatollah claiming the United States and Britain were behind last week's suicide bombings at a Shi'ite mosque in Sistan-Baluchestan province. "All Muslims," he said, "must combat the evil and corrupt [powers] waging war on Earth."

Other top Iranian officials had previously accused Britain, the United States, Israel and al-Qaida of responsibility for the blasts that killed 28 people and wounded hundreds of others. The Sunni Balluch rebel group Jundallah claimed on its website that it was behind the suicide attacks.

The names and photos of the two alleged suicide bombers were posted on its website. Jundallah claimed the attacks were to avenge Iran's hanging of its leader Abdolmalek Rigi on June 20.

His controversial claim to represent the Prophet Muhammad and the 12th Imam on Earth, followed strong, recent criticism by several Iranian religious leaders, questioning his policies. Mohsen Kadivar, an exiled Shi'ite cleric, went so far as to demand his "impeachment," recently.

University of Birmingham Professor Scott Lucas, who writes the popular Iran blog "Enduring America" says Ayatollah Khamenei's controversial fatwah could be a way of lashing out at those adversaries now attacking him.

"It is the first time that Khamenei has specifically gone so far as to claim that kind of authority, and there is a theological debate as to whether this constitutes heresy, in the sense that some interpretations of Shia Islam say that no one can claim to represent the Prophet and the Imams on Earth," he said. "Khamenei, feeling pressure on a number of fronts, regarding his clerical and political authority, feels the need to assert, effectively, 'You must obey me."

But Professor Hilal Khashan of the American University of Beirut says Ayatollah Khamenei rules Iran under the Wilayat al Faqih principle, which does give him broad powers to represent Shi'ism's Hidden or 12th Imam.

"It depends if you believe in Wilayet al Faqih concept," he said. "Now, Shi'ites who subscribe to Wilayat al Faqih concept would accept this, because, actually, this is the designation of the Supreme Leader of Iran. He is the 'deputy of the hidden Imam until his return, to lead humanity', quote unquote, 'into redemption and salvation.' So, for the believers, there is nothing unusual about the statement."

But Khashan notes many Shi'ites, who are not fundamentalists, do not believe in the Ayatollah Khamenei's extraordinary powers on Earth, and that they frown on anyone claiming to represent the Imam. Lucas, says many top Iranian religious leaders are now questioning Supreme Leader Khamenei's authority, amid a growing political and religious ferment.



where is the proof, let us see the evidence......
 

Ender

Inactive
In Islam, the Prophet Jesus (Arabic: عيسى عليه السلام‎ `Īsā Alayhi As Salam) is considered to be a Messenger of God who was sent to guide the People of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel.[1] In sharp contrast to Christianity, Islam emphatically denies that Jesus was the Son of God, or that he was divine in any way. While accepting his Virgin Birth, Islam denies that Jesus was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind; it especially scorns any notions that Jesus is to be worshipped or prayed to.

I understand all that Richard. We are not speaking Yashua, we are speaking of the God of Abraham that many Christians pray to as Heavenly Father. (Some Christians believe that Yashua was also the God of the Old Testament and some do not. Not all Christians agree anymore than all Muslims agree)

I am simply talking about the Arabic word "Allah" which means God. A Christian Arab will use the same word as a Muslim or Jewish Arab- yes they do exist. And I have stated this on at least 1000 posts.

As for what you call yourself: be my guest.

:)
 

imaginative

keep your eye on the ball
"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone." (Koran Ch.112)

Islam is a Monothestic religon. The distinction between Islam and Christianity is no small or minor difference; either Jesus is divine or he is not.

1 John 2:22-23 (New International Version)

22"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
I understand all that Richard. We are not speaking Yashua, we are speaking of the God of Abraham that many Christians pray to as Heavenly Father. (Some Christians believe that Yashua was also the God of the Old Testament and some do not. Not all Christians agree anymore than all Muslims agree)

I am simply talking about the Arabic word "Allah" which means God. A Christian Arab will use the same word as a Muslim or Jewish Arab- yes they do exist. And I have stated this on at least 1000 posts.

As for what you call yourself: be my guest.

:)


All religions are crap, based on superstition, don't care whether allah means god or not in thier language to anyone makes no difference what word they use, God or god is just a fallacious concept, don't care whether they are Christian arabs Christian Christians jew jews or atheists atheists agnostics agnostics

This is not to exclude that there may be a god or Gods, just to hedge my bets, i am inclined to substantiate a god based on my own thoughts, but i could be wrong, we'll find out for certain when we die, who is right, and the atheists may be surprised or not, i don't decode these things and neither do you
 

Ender

Inactive
"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone." (Koran Ch.112)

Islam is a Monothestic religon. The distinction between Islam and Christianity is no small or minor difference; either Jesus is divine or he is not.

1 John 2:22-23 (New International Version)

22"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

OK- one LAST time.

The point is that the Arabic word "Allah" means God to Arabic Jews, Christians & Muslims.

The point is NOT about everyone's individual beliefs.
 

Ender

Inactive
All religions are crap, based on superstition, don't care whether allah means god or not in thier language to anyone makes no difference what word they use, God or god is just a fallacious concept, don't care whether they are Christian arabs Christian Christians jew jews or atheists atheists agnostics agnostics

You may believe what you want- this is NOT what the OP is about.

Not arguing- I'm outta here.
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
You may believe what you want- this is NOT what the OP is about.

Not arguing- I'm outta here.

I don't believe anything i know something or i don't know, you should know this by now after a 1000 posts, it only requires a modicum of intelligence to understand, not difficult.......
 

BoatGuy

Inactive
The OT and the NT Gods seem very different. Does this mean Jews and Christians worship a different God?

Most Christian sects don't worship the same God. Some are fire & brimstone- some are love & peace.

The point is that Jews, Muslims and Christians all profess to worship the God of Abraham; in Arabic the word for God is called "Allah".

Personally, I don't see any conflict between the OT and NT. Care to cite an example?
 

BoatGuy

Inactive
OK- one LAST time.

The point is that the Arabic word "Allah" means God to Arabic Jews, Christians & Muslims.

The point is NOT about everyone's individual beliefs.

I think you will find that Allah is a PROPER name, and not another word for G-d.
 

BoatGuy

Inactive
All religions are crap, based on superstition, don't care whether allah means god or not in thier language to anyone makes no difference what word they use, God or god is just a fallacious concept, don't care whether they are Christian arabs Christian Christians jew jews or atheists atheists agnostics agnostics

This is not to exclude that there may be a god or Gods, just to hedge my bets, i am inclined to substantiate a god based on my own thoughts, but i could be wrong, we'll find out for certain when we die, who is right, and the atheists may be surprised or not, i don't decode these things and neither do you

Hedging your bets? I laugh at that suggestion. If you were truly hedging, you would be on the other side of the argument. With the hedging that you propose, if you are wrong, then it REALLY sucks to be you.
 

Ender

Inactive
I think you will find that Allah is a PROPER name, and not another word for G-d.

Negative.

This fellow explains it pretty well:

Should Christians Use Allah in Bible Translations?
by Joshua Massey

The question of translating God as Allah is hotly debated in non-Arab lands, where many sincere Christians are convinced Allah is a false god. Ironically, this debate doesn’t exist for Arab Christians, who have continually translated elohim and theos (the primary terms for God in Biblical Hebrew and Greek) as Allah from the earliest known Arabic Bible translations in the eighth century till today. Most scholars agree that Allah is the Arabicised form of the Biblical Aramaic elah, corresponding to the Hebrew eloah, which
is the singular of elohim, a generic word for God used throughout the Old Testament. As in English, the Bible uses elah and elohim for both the Most High God and false gods— English uses an upper or lower case “g” to distinguish between these two. By contrast, Muslims never use Allah to refer to a false god, but only the One True God, the God ofAbraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Muslim writers have been using Allah in their quotations of the Christian Bible since the ninth century. Jewish scholars have also been translating elohim and elah as Allah since the earliest known Arabic translations of the Torah in the ninth century until today. So in spite of the apparent differences in how God is understood according to Biblical and Qur’anic content, Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims together have been addressing God as Allah over the last fourteen centuries.

Nonetheless, many sincere missionaries who strive to be Biblical tend to reject all Muslim terminology, culture, and religious forms which they construe as “Islamic”— even elements rooted in Biblical Jewish and Christian origin. Issues of terminology for God are significantly convoluted when working with Muslims in non-Arabic-speaking lands where Christians use alternate terms for God. Although millions of Arab and non-Arab Christians (e.g. thirty million Javanese and Sundanese Christians in Indonesia)
worship God as “Allah”, other non-Arab Christians are susceptible to strong aversions toward using Allah for God when unaware of its history and broader usage in the body of Christ. It is all too easy to misunderstand any foreign term when we do not know the language or its wider context of usage.

Similarly, it is equally easy to gloss over the sordid history of many non-Arabic terms Christians use for God. The English word “God”, for example, comes from the pagan Germanic “Gott,” which was sued as a proper name for the chief Teutonic deity Odin, who lives on top of the world-tree and created the first humans with his wife Freya, a blonde, blue-eyed goddess of love, fertility and beauty. Should English speakers therefore discontinue addressing the Most High as God? In spite of its pagan origin and its present use for both false deities and the Most High, “God” (when capitalized) is generally understood by English speakers as the God of the Bible, and therefore perfectly acceptable to English-speaking Christians. Allah, by contrast, shares the same Semitic roots as Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, is not presently used for false deities, and clearly understood by all Arab Christians and Muslims as the God of the Bible. Allah is therefore a perfectly acceptable term for Arabic-speaking Christians and Muslims.
 

BoatGuy

Inactive
Negative.

This fellow explains it pretty well:

http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm All text is from this site. I have added nothing (other than this statement, and the bold-faced type)...

The word Allah, according to several Arabic lexicons, means "the Being Who comprises all the attributes of perfection", i.e. the Being Who is perfect in every way (in His knowledge, power etc.), and possesses the best and the noblest qualities imaginable in the highest degree. This meaning is supported by the Holy Quran when it says:

"His are the best (or most beautiful) names." (17:110; 20:8; and 7:180)

Contrary to popular belief, the word Allah is NOT a contraction of al-ilah (al meaning 'the', and ilah meaning 'god').

Had it been so, then the expression ya Allah ('O Allah!') would have been ungrammatical, because according to the Arabic language when you address someone by the vocative form ya followed by a title, the al ('the') must be dropped from the title. For example, you cannot say ya ar-rabb but must say ya rabb (for 'O Lord'). So if the word Allah was al-ilah ('the God'), we would not be able to say: ya Allah, which we do.

Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (which is based on classical Arabic dictionaries), says under the word Allah, while citing many linguistical authorities:

"Allah ... is a proper name applied to the Being Who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection, a proper name denoting the true god ... the al being inseparable from it, not derived..."

Allah is thus a proper name, not derived from anything, and the Al is inseparable from it. The word al-ilah (the god) is a different word.
 
Last edited:

cdwarior

Senior Member
I suppose the 'great thing' appeared on TV to proclaim this. Off with everyone's head who looked upon his likeness.
 

Ender

Inactive
http://www.muslim.org/islam/allah.htm All text is from this site. I have added nothing (other than this statement, and the bold-faced type)...

The word Allah, according to several Arabic lexicons, means "the Being Who comprises all the attributes of perfection", i.e. the Being Who is perfect in every way (in His knowledge, power etc.), and possesses the best and the noblest qualities imaginable in the highest degree. This meaning is supported by the Holy Quran when it says:

"His are the best (or most beautiful) names." (17:110; 20:8; and 7:180)

Contrary to popular belief, the word Allah is NOT a contraction of al-ilah (al meaning 'the', and ilah meaning 'god').

Had it been so, then the expression ya Allah ('O Allah!') would have been ungrammatical, because according to the Arabic language when you address someone by the vocative form ya followed by a title, the al ('the') must be dropped from the title. For example, you cannot say ya ar-rabb but must say ya rabb (for 'O Lord'). So if the word Allah was al-ilah ('the God'), we would not be able to say: ya Allah, which we do.

Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (which is based on classical Arabic dictionaries), says under the word Allah, while citing many linguistical authorities:

"Allah ... is a proper name applied to the Being Who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all the attributes of perfection, a proper name denoting the true god ... the al being inseparable from it, not derived..."

Allah is thus a proper name, not derived from anything, and the Al is inseparable from it. The word al-ilah (the god) is a different word.

Different Muslim site- different take:

http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/Aior.htm

by Dr Zakir Naik

Question:

"Allah" is the most appropriate name for God in the Qur’an. Is this name "Allah" mentioned in other religious scriptures besides the Qur’an?

Answer:

Almost all the major religious scriptures of the world contain the word "Allah" as one of the names of God.

1.

Elohim El, Elah, Alah
In the Bible, God is very often referred to as ‘Elohim’ in the Hebrew language. The ‘im’ in the ending is a plural of honour and God is referred to as ‘El’ or ‘Elah’ in the English Bible with commentary, edited by reverend C. I. Scofield. ‘Elah’ is alternatively spelled as ‘Alah’. The difference in spelling is only of a single ‘L’. Muslims spell Allah as ‘Allah’ while the Reverend has spelled it as Alah and they pronounce it as ‘Elah’. Muslims pronounce it as Allah. Hebrew and Arabic are sister languages therefore we say it should be pronounced as ‘Allah’ and not as ‘Elah’.

When I was in school, I was taught ‘D, O’ is do, ‘T, O’ is to. What is ‘G, O’ It is ‘go’ and not ‘gu’. ‘N, U, T’ is nut, ‘C, U, T’ cut; ‘B, U, T’ is but, what is ‘P, U, T’? Not ‘pat’ but it is ‘put’. If you ask "Why?" The answer is "It is their language". If I have to pass I have to say ‘P, U, T’ is ‘put’ and not ‘pat’. Similarly the right pronunciation for A, L, L, A, H, is Allah.
2.

Jesus (pbuh) cried out Allah Allah when he was put on the cross
It is mentioned in the New Testament in the Gospel of Mathew, chapter 27 verse 46 as well as Gospel of Mark, chapter 15 verse 34 when Jesus (pbuh) was put on the cross.

Jesus cried with a loud voice saying "E’-Li, E’-Li la’-ma sa-bach’-tha-ni?" that is to say, ‘My God, My God why hast Thou Forsaken Me?’ Does this sound like Jehovah! Jehovah! why has thou forsaken me? Does it sound like Abba Abba? The answer is ‘No’. Hebrew and Arabic are sister languages and if you translate "E’-Li, E’-Li la’-ma sa-bach’-tha-ni" into Arabic it is ‘Allah Allah lama tarak tani’ does it sound similar?

This statement of Jesus (pbuh), "E’-Li, E’-Li la’-ma sa-bach’-tha-ni" is preserved in its original Hebrew in each and every of its translation which is available in more than 2000 different languages of the world and in each and every of them, "Allah" is present.

2.

"Allah" in Sikhism
One of the names by which Gurunanak Sahib referred to God is "Allah".
3. "Allah" in Hinduism
1.

"Allah" in Rigveda Book 2 Hymn I verse II
Even in the Rigveda which is the most sacred scripture of the Hindus, one of the attributes given to God Almighty in Book no 2 Hymn no I verse II, is ‘Ila’ which if pronounced properly is the same as Allah.
2.

Allo Upanishad:
Amongst the various Upanishads one of the Upanishad is named as ‘Allo’ Upanishad in which God is referred to as "Allah" several times
 
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