SCI Humans in America 30,000 years ago, far earlier than thought

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I have people who are up-to-date in the field looking at his Yahoo News article but if the story pans out as presented (some do and some don't) then there will be evidence that people were in the Americans 16 to 17 thousand years BEFORE my textbooks insisted were possible in 1975 and for many years after that. Information was lost, careers were destroyed and basically the originators of "Clovis Only" Theory had to die off before this sort of find could be taken seriously. Sad, but a good lesson for science in general...Melodi

Humans in America 30,000 years ago, far earlier than thought

Marlowe HOOD
,
AFPJuly 22, 2020


Ciprian Ardelean irst excavated the Chiquihuite Cave in 2012 but did not discover the oldest artefacts until 2017

Ciprian Ardelean irst excavated the Chiquihuite Cave in 2012 but did not discover the oldest artefacts until 2017. (AFP Photo/ORLANDO SIERRA)
More
Paris (AFP) - Tools excavated from a cave in central Mexico are strong evidence that humans were living in North America at least 30,000 years ago, some 15,000 years earlier than previously thought, scientists said Wednesday.
Artefacts, including 1,900 stone tools, showed human occupation of the high-altitude Chiquihuite Cave over a roughly 20,000 year period, they reported in two studies, published in Nature.
"Our results provide new evidence for the antiquity of humans in the Americas," Ciprian Ardelean, an archeologist at the Universidad Autonoma de Zacatecas and lead author of one of the studies, told AFP.
"There are only a few artefacts and a couple of dates from that range," he said, referring radiocarbon dating results putting the oldest samples at 33,000 to 31,000 years ago.
"However, the presence is there."
No traces of human bones or DNA were found at the site.
"It is likely that humans used this site on a relatively constant basis, perhaps in recurrent seasonal episodes part of larger migratory cycles," the study concluded.
The stone tools -- unique in the Americas -- revealed a "mature technology" which the authors speculate was brought in from elsewhere.
The saga of how and when Homo sapiens arrived in the Americas -- the last major land mass to be populated by our species -- is fiercly debated among experts, and the new findings will likely be contested.
- 'Clovis-first' debunked -
"That happens every time that anybody finds sites older than 16,000 years -- the first reaction is denial or hard acceptance," said Ardelean, who first excavated the cave in 2012 but did not discover the oldest items until 2017.
Until recently, the widely accepted storyline was that the first humans to set foot in the Americas crossed a land bridge from present-day Russia to Alaska some 13,5000 years ago and moved south through a corridor between two massive ice sheets.
Archeological evidence -- including uniquely crafted spear points used to slay mammoths and other prehistoric megafauna -- suggested this founding population, known as Clovis Culture, spread across North America, giving rise to distinct native American populations.
But the so-called Clovis-first model has fallen apart over the last two decades with the discovery of several ancient human settlements dating back two or three thousand years before earlier.
Moreover, the tool and weapon remnants at these sites were not the same, showing distinct origins.
"Clearly, people were in the Americas long before the development of Clovis technology in North America," said Gruhn, an anthropology professor emerita at the University of Alberta, in commenting on the new findings.
In a second study, Lorena Becerra-Valdivia and Thomas Higham, researchers at the University of Oxford's Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, used radiocarbon -- backed up by another technique based on luminescence -- to date samples from 42 sites across North America.
Using a statistical model, they showed widespread human presence "before, during and immediately after the Last Glacial Maximum" (LGM), which lasted from 27,000 to 19,000 years ago.
- Megafauna wiped out -
The timing of this deep chill is crucial because it is widely agreed that humans migrating from Asia could not have penetrated the massive icesheets that covered much of the continent during this period.
"So if humans were here DURING the Last Glacial Maximum, that's because they had already arrived BEFORE it," Ardelean noted in an email.
Human populations scattered across the continent during an earlier period also coincide with the disappearance of once abundant megafauna, including mammoths and extinct species of camels and horses.
"Our analysis suggests that the widespread expansion of humans through North America was a key factor in the extinction of large terrestrial mammals," the second study concluded.
Many key questions remain unanswered, including whether the first of our species to wander across the frozen tundra of Beringia made their way south via an interior route or -- as recent research suggests -- by moving along the coast, either on foot or in boats of some kind.
It is also a mystery as to "why no archaeological site of equivalent age to Chiquihuite Cave has been recognised in the continental United States," said Gruhn.
"With a Bering Straits entry point, the earliest people expanding south must have passed through that area."
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
They're still assuming Bering Straits? I give people of 30,000 years ago more credit for travel other than foot I guess....
In that class all those decades ago, when the book said "they had to come no earlier than 11,000 years ago when the straight was still on dry land," I raised my hand and said, "why, people go back and forth now all the time, couldn't they have used boats?"

That did not go well....

But, even if the land bridge is partly correct (and I'm sure that partly it is) that same book insisted the "only" previous time could have been around 40,000 years ago, which fits really well with the dating on the cave in Mexico!

Personally, my vote is for boats at least as a major factor, and that there have not been any really ancient sites found (yet) in North America because a lot of it was blocked by an ice barrier (even on part of the Coast) so even people who camped on the beaches probably didn't go inland until they got further down the coastline.

Not to mention the entire ice cap would have been much further down (same way on the Atlantic side) along with more exposed islands due to lower sea levels.
 

Chapulin

Veteran Member
Proving age requires materials that can be aged. There aren't any survivors to interview. We are learning about sea travel and we know oceans moderate temperatures. Beaches should have been populated, but most of the materials rotted or were buried. Many of the early cultures should be around the equator. I have no professional training but starting inland where we find wood tools instead of plant fiber on the coast, appears to be later occupations.
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
Human populations scattered across the continent during an earlier period also coincide with the disappearance of once abundant megafauna, including mammoths and extinct species of camels and horses.
"Our analysis suggests that the widespread expansion of humans through North America was a key factor in the extinction of large terrestrial mammals," the second study concluded.
Yup, cause early humans were carnivores, not vegans.
 

ArisenCarcass

Veteran Member
I have people who are up-to-date in the field looking at his Yahoo News article but if the story pans out as presented (some do and some don't) then there will be evidence that people were in the Americans 16 to 17 thousand years BEFORE my textbooks insisted were possible in 1975 and for many years after that. Information was lost, careers were destroyed and basically the originators of "Clovis Only" Theory had to die off before this sort of find could be taken seriously. Sad, but a good lesson for science in general...Melodi

Humans in America 30,000 years ago, far earlier than thought

Marlowe HOOD
,
AFPJuly 22, 2020


Ciprian Ardelean irst excavated the Chiquihuite Cave in 2012 but did not discover the oldest artefacts until 2017

Ciprian Ardelean irst excavated the Chiquihuite Cave in 2012 but did not discover the oldest artefacts until 2017. (AFP Photo/ORLANDO SIERRA)
More
Paris (AFP) - Tools excavated from a cave in central Mexico are strong evidence that humans were living in North America at least 30,000 years ago, some 15,000 years earlier than previously thought, scientists said Wednesday.
Artefacts, including 1,900 stone tools, showed human occupation of the high-altitude Chiquihuite Cave over a roughly 20,000 year period, they reported in two studies, published in Nature.
"Our results provide new evidence for the antiquity of humans in the Americas," Ciprian Ardelean, an archeologist at the Universidad Autonoma de Zacatecas and lead author of one of the studies, told AFP.
"There are only a few artefacts and a couple of dates from that range," he said, referring radiocarbon dating results putting the oldest samples at 33,000 to 31,000 years ago.
"However, the presence is there."
No traces of human bones or DNA were found at the site.
"It is likely that humans used this site on a relatively constant basis, perhaps in recurrent seasonal episodes part of larger migratory cycles," the study concluded.
The stone tools -- unique in the Americas -- revealed a "mature technology" which the authors speculate was brought in from elsewhere.
The saga of how and when Homo sapiens arrived in the Americas -- the last major land mass to be populated by our species -- is fiercly debated among experts, and the new findings will likely be contested.
- 'Clovis-first' debunked -
"That happens every time that anybody finds sites older than 16,000 years -- the first reaction is denial or hard acceptance," said Ardelean, who first excavated the cave in 2012 but did not discover the oldest items until 2017.
Until recently, the widely accepted storyline was that the first humans to set foot in the Americas crossed a land bridge from present-day Russia to Alaska some 13,5000 years ago and moved south through a corridor between two massive ice sheets.
Archeological evidence -- including uniquely crafted spear points used to slay mammoths and other prehistoric megafauna -- suggested this founding population, known as Clovis Culture, spread across North America, giving rise to distinct native American populations.
But the so-called Clovis-first model has fallen apart over the last two decades with the discovery of several ancient human settlements dating back two or three thousand years before earlier.
Moreover, the tool and weapon remnants at these sites were not the same, showing distinct origins.
"Clearly, people were in the Americas long before the development of Clovis technology in North America," said Gruhn, an anthropology professor emerita at the University of Alberta, in commenting on the new findings.
In a second study, Lorena Becerra-Valdivia and Thomas Higham, researchers at the University of Oxford's Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, used radiocarbon -- backed up by another technique based on luminescence -- to date samples from 42 sites across North America.
Using a statistical model, they showed widespread human presence "before, during and immediately after the Last Glacial Maximum" (LGM), which lasted from 27,000 to 19,000 years ago.
- Megafauna wiped out -
The timing of this deep chill is crucial because it is widely agreed that humans migrating from Asia could not have penetrated the massive icesheets that covered much of the continent during this period.
"So if humans were here DURING the Last Glacial Maximum, that's because they had already arrived BEFORE it," Ardelean noted in an email.
Human populations scattered across the continent during an earlier period also coincide with the disappearance of once abundant megafauna, including mammoths and extinct species of camels and horses.
"Our analysis suggests that the widespread expansion of humans through North America was a key factor in the extinction of large terrestrial mammals," the second study concluded.
Many key questions remain unanswered, including whether the first of our species to wander across the frozen tundra of Beringia made their way south via an interior route or -- as recent research suggests -- by moving along the coast, either on foot or in boats of some kind.
It is also a mystery as to "why no archaeological site of equivalent age to Chiquihuite Cave has been recognised in the continental United States," said Gruhn.
"With a Bering Straits entry point, the earliest people expanding south must have passed through that area."

People have been saying this forever based on the different flint-napping techniques displayed in stratified remains in the Eastern US.
The knapping technique used for the oldest arrowheads on the East coast (at least) exhibit Solutrean-tendencies, and are believed to be much older than the Alaska-crossing.

The Solutrean theory goes like this:
European neolithic people inhabited the Americas, probably for a long time, killing off the megafauna and dangerous animals (the areas Europeans inhabit have been painstakingly shaped to be safer, Asia still has tigers.....).
When the Asians migrated to the Americas they killed off the Solutrean Europeans but adopted a facimile of their arrowhead style-the Clovis point (which is not found in the areas where the Asian migrants came from).
Today, Amerind people have maintained that they were "the First People" despite ample evidence to the contrary, going so far as to have US courts "return" "disturbed" pre-Amerind remains (to probably be burned in a barrel somewhere), all to maintain an illusion and Uncle Sam's handouts.
If it were widely known that the Amerinds probably killed off a bunch of European stone age people, no one would feel sorry for the Indian wars and their near-extinction.


Or maybe it's just a Eurocentric POV.
IDK, and a lot of evidence in archeology has been covered up for narratives and to "maintain what we know."
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Genesis... Peleg... a very short, simple sentence. I do believe it refers to when Pangea split. But then again I believe Noah was living in a society that was way more advanced than our current world, ditto for those at the Tower of Babylon.
 

bw

Fringe Ranger
I tend to think in longer terms, and am not particularly interested in human developments more recent than about a hundred thousand years ago. So ten or twenty thousand years this way or that doesn't impress me. It's like current events class in school.
 

Squib

Veteran Member
Since most of us have been around more than a year or two, we’ve seen science change, and I’m mean polar shifts.

Science to most people today is a religion and religions have sacred cows, and you’d better not slaughter someone’s sacred cow!

As Melodi rightly said, people’s careers have “been ruined“, often by people who were supposed to be empirical based, fact seeking, dispassionate professionals who went where the evidence led...I know, it’s a joke...
 
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Squib

Veteran Member
Genesis... Peleg... a very short, simple sentence. I do believe it refers to when Pangea split. But then again I believe Noah was living in a society that was way more advanced than our current world, ditto for those at the Tower of Babylon.

Well, I totally agree with you about Peleg. His name seems to hint at a dividing of land, and not the Tower of Babel either.

Read some interesting papers about Job and the internal evidence in his book that pointed to ice age conditions.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Well, I totally agree with you about Peleg. His name seems to hint at a dividing of land, and not the Tower of Babel either.

Read some interesting papers about Job and the internal evidence in his book that pointed to ice age conditions.

Sorry I didn’t mean Peleg was at the Tower of Babel, my bad. Three separate events. And I agree on Job iirc there a sentence that’s point out that the people who lived in the wholes in ground were mocking Job.
 

meandk0610

Veteran Member
That author in the OP article is maybe a little behind.


New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
Date:November 18, 2004
Source: University Of South Carolina
Summary: Radiocarbon tests of carbonized plant remains where artifacts were unearthed last May along the Savannah River in Allendale County by University of South Carolina archaeologist Dr. Albert Goodyear indicate that the sediments containing these artifacts are at least 50,000 years old, meaning that humans inhabited North American long before the last ice age.

Radiocarbon tests of carbonized plant remains where artifacts were unearthed last May along the Savannah River in Allendale County by University of South Carolina archaeologist Dr. Albert Goodyear indicate that the sediments containing these artifacts are at least 50,000 years old, meaning that humans inhabited North American long before the last ice age.

The findings are significant because they suggest that humans inhabited North America well before the last ice age more than 20,000 years ago, a potentially explosive revelation in American archaeology.
Goodyear, who has garnered international attention for his discoveries of tools that pre-date what is believed to be humans' arrival in North America, announced the test results, which were done by the University of California at Irvine Laboratory, Wednesday (Nov .17).

"The dates could actually be older," Goodyear says. "Fifty-thousand should be a minimum age since there may be little detectable activity left."

The dawn of modern homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. Evidence of modern man's migration out of the African continent has been documented in Australia and Central Asia at 50,000 years and in Europe at 40,000 years. The fact that humans could have been in North America at or near the same time is expected to spark debate among archaeologists worldwide, raising new questions on the origin and migration of the human species.

"Topper is the oldest radiocarbon dated site in North America," Goodyear says. "However, other early sites in Brazil and Chile, as well as a site in Oklahoma also suggest that humans were in the Western Hemisphere as early as 30,000 years ago to perhaps 60,000."

In 1998, Goodyear, nationally known for his research on the ice age PaleoIndian cultures dug below the 13,000-year Clovis level at the Topper site and found unusual stone tools up to a meter deeper. The Topper excavation site is on the bank of the Savannah River on property owned by Clariant Corp., a chemical corporation headquartered near Basel, Switzerland. He recovered numerous stone tool artifacts in soils that were later dated by an outside team of geologists to be 16,000 years old.

For five years, Goodyear continued to add artifacts and evidence that a pre-Clovis people existed, slowly eroding the long-held theory by archaeologists that man arrived in North America around 13,000 years ago.

Last May, Goodyear dug even deeper to see whether man's existence extended further back in time. Using a backhoe and hand excavations, Goodyear's team dug through the Pleistocene terrace soil, some 4 meters below the ground surface. Goodyear found a number of artifacts similar to the pre-Clovis forms he has excavated in recent years.

Then on the last day of the last week of digging, Goodyear's team uncovered a black stain in the soil where artifacts lay, providing him the charcoal needed for radiocarbon dating. Dr. Tom Stafford of Stafford Laboratories in Boulder, Colo., came to Topper and collected charcoal samples for dating.

"Three radiocarbon dates were obtained from deep in the terrace at Topper with two dates of 50,300 and 51,700 on burnt plant remains. One modern date related to an intrusion," Stafford says. "The two 50,000 dates indicate that they are at least 50,300 years. The absolute age is not known."

The revelation of an even older date for Topper is expected to heighten speculation about when man got to the Western Hemisphere and add to the debate over other pre-Clovis sites in the Eastern United States such as Meadowcroft Rockshelter, Pa., and Cactus Hill, Va.

In October 2005, archaeologists will meet in Columbia for a conference on Clovis and the study of earliest Americans. The conference will include a day trip to Topper, which is sure to dominate discussions and presentations at the international gathering.USC's Topper: A Timeline

May, 1998 — Dr. Al Goodyear and his team dig up to a meter below the Clovis level and encounter unusual stone tools up to two meters below surface.

May 1999 — Team of outside geologists led by Mike Waters, a researcher at Texas A&M, visit Topper site and propose a thorough geological study of locality.

May 2000 — Geology study done by consultants; ice age soil confirmed for pre-Clovis artifacts.

May 2001 — Geologists revisit Topper and obtain ancient plant remains deep down in the Pleistocene terrace. OSL (optically stimulated luminescence) dates on soils above ice age strata show pre-Clovis is at least older than 14,000.

May 2002 — Geologists find new profile showing ancient soil lying between Clovis and pre-Clovis, confirming the age of ice age soils between 16,000 - 20,000 years.

May 2003 — Archaeologists continue to excavate pre-Clovis artifacts above the terrace, as well as new, significant Clovis finds.

May 2004 — Using backhoe and hand excavations, Goodyear and his team dig deeper, down into the Pleistocene terrace, some 4 meters below the ground surface. Artifacts, similar to pre-Clovis forms excavated in previous years, recovered deep in the terrace. A black stain in the soil provides charcoal for radio carbon dating.

November 2004 — Radiocarbon dating report indicates that artifacts excavated from Pleistocene terrace in May were recovered from soil that dates some 50,000 years. The dates imply an even earlier arrival for humans in this hemisphere than previously believed, well before the last ice age.DR. ALBERT C. GOODYEAR III

University of South Carolina archaeologist Albert C. Goodyear joined the South Carolina Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology in1974 and has been associated with the Research Division since 1976. He is also the founder and director of the Allendale PaleoIndian Expedition, a program that involves members of the public in helping to excavate PaleoAmerican sites in the central Savannah River Valley of South Carolina.

Goodyear earned his bachelor's degree in anthropology from the University of South Florida (1968), his master's degree in anthropology from the University of Arkansas and his doctorate in anthropology from Arizona State University (1976). He is a member of the Society for American Archaeology, the Southeastern Archaeological Conference, the Archaeological Society of South Carolina, and the Florida Anthropological Society. He has served twice as president of the Archaeological Society of South Carolina and is on the editorial board of The Florida Anthropologist and the North American Archaeologist.

Goodyear developed his interest in archaeology in the 1960s as a member of the F1orida Anthropological Society and through avocational experiences along Florida's central Gulf Coast. He wrote and published articles about sites and artifacts from that region for The Florida Anthropologist in the late 1960s. His master's thesis on the Brand site, a late PaleoIndian Dalton site in northeast Arkansas, was published in 1974 by the Arkansas Archeological Survey. At Arizona State University, he did field research on Desert Hohokam mountain hunting and gathering sites in the Lower Sonoran desert of Southern Arizona.

Goodyear, whose primary research interest has been America's earliest human inhabitants, has focused on the period of the Pleistocene-Holocene transition dating between 12,000 and 9,000 years ago. He has taken a geoarchaeological approach to the search for deeply buried early sites by teaming up with colleagues in geology and soil science. For the past 15 years he has studied early prehistoric sites in Allendale County, S.C., in the central Savannah River Valley. These are stone tool manufacturing sites related to the abundant chert resources that were quarried in this locality.
This work has been supported by the National Park Service, the National Geographic Society, the University of South Carolina, the Archaeological Research Trust (SCIAA), the Allendale Research Fund, the Elizabeth Stringfellow Endowment Fund, Sandoz Chemical Corp. and Clariant Corp., the present owner of the site.

Goodyear is the author of over 100 articles, reports and books and regularly presents public lectures and professional papers on his PaleoIndian discoveries in South Carolina.

Story Source:
Materials provided by University Of South Carolina. Note: Content may be edited for style and length.
 

Squib

Veteran Member
Sorry I didn’t mean Peleg was at the Tower of Babel, my bad. Three separate events. And I agree on Job iirc there a sentence that’s point out that the people who lived in the wholes in ground were mocking Job.

Yes! You’re exactly right...

Also, no, I didn’t think you were referring to the Peleg division being the Tower of Babel incident.

I was agreeing with you...not many people realize the many references in Job to catastrophic geological and climate events.

Jobs 3 friends being descendants of men who lived in caves, giant sea creatures, and people keeping watch on the sea for tidal waves, etc.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Funny, I was just writing to a friend that next might be the 50,000 years barrier because that is about when people go to Australia (or before) and on the Pacific side at least the boat travel should have been achievable (there is no way to get to Australia except by boat even 75,000 years ago which is the earliest day so far suggested).

One of the people I sent the article to is a real fan of the Salutrian people coming over on the other side as well (as am I) supercomputer modeling shows the ice cap at the time making it perfect for transpolar cultures to just keep going along the ice in boats from one side of the Atlantic (or Pacific) to the other (still going on today).

There are also changes in France about the same time showing the cave art morphing from the "megafauna" like mammoths to Polar Ocean foods like seals, walruses and the like - it is subtle and there isn't much there but there is some.

Anyway, as others have pointed out - you can't find what you don't look for!

Just think of all those documentaries that have come out showing the "newly found" wonders of the Neanderthal - something I predicted here on this forum a few years ago, once the science proved that we carry their DNA - suddenly they were human and all these finds gathering dust in drawers were re-examined; they had been put aside because they didn't "fit the narrative" or been told "they must be Cromagnons because "Neanderthals didn't do this or that."

I am glad to see the records are being shaken up and finally starting to sort out a bit.
 

Stanb999

Inactive
The atlantic is dotted with seamounts across the north, during the ice age they were dry ground. It wouldn't have been more than a few days between each with a rudimentary boat. It's funny how Archaeologists don't talk with geologists. Most of the land masses of the world could be reached with a skiff.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
The atlantic is dotted with seamounts across the north, during the ice age they were dry ground. It wouldn't have been more than a few days between each with a rudimentary boat. It's funny how Archaeologists don't talk with geologists. Most of the land masses of the world could be reached with a skiff.

This is true along the equator as well.
 
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