packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
OC stopped taking his around week five, IIRC. Eight weeks before your fully independent and can drive again, ten since you had both knees done at the same time.
…… How Long Can Surgery Patient Safely Take Narcotic Pain Killer? (Update post #68)
- Thread starter Barry Natchitoches
- Start date
colonel holman
Veteran Member
There is an art to bringing patients along their course of recovery exercises… when to push, when to hold back, when to change the plan, how to motivate the individual personality. Very much an art form. And critical for the patient, since it determines their lifestyle for the rest of the lifetime.
colonel holman
Veteran Member
Addressing pain is my career, and you speak truth. Current state of the medical profession totally sux at pain management… contaminated by uninformed laws, unforgivable greed by pharma, and a rapidly-collapsing healthcare system
Reasonable Rascal
Veteran Member
Not sure where you got this from but it is untrue. Have you ever seen a Laudanum addict? I have; he was a patient of mine for a bit. And that was under a doctor's care and consent.
RR
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
My PT was so impressed by how far along I was, and it is clear that he overestimated my overall bone strength. You see, I am a former ultra marathon runner, so my walking muscles were able to pick up quicker than most folks walking muscles could do.
But that would never translate to other leg movements, where my recovery would be more average.
I think he got so impressed with my ability to walk that he forgot I was an ultra marathon runner.
Where this injury took place was when he had me lying on my side, one leg bent and the other leg free to be lifted up in the air. He put the two pound weight on the ankle, then told me to both lift the leg up and also angled backwards some.
And it was just too much, too soon.
I complained about it immediately, but he had me do four of those leg lifts before he realized I really could not handle the 2 pound weights, and switched to the one pound weights.
My right leg never was asked to do that exercise with the two pound weight - only the one poind weight.
And the right leg is doing fine.
But any weight bearing on that left leg causes me pain that was not there before I did that particular exercise Friday.
I am not sure what to do now. I have a PT session scheduled for Tuesday.
Truth is, I am a bit afraid to go.
Knoxville's Joker
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Just remember it is your right to stop if it feels too uncomfortable. When you are pushing yourself to up muscle strength it is important to not overdo things and it can take a week or two to recover if you strain things more than they should be strained...
I appreciate your experience, no I have not seen or known a laudanum addict. I know my family's history, my grandmother was born in 1884, we are a family who bear children into their late ages! And I am not familiar with them becoming addicts back in the day. Some folks may be more susceptible than our family, I still think pain medicine needs to be more readily available to those needing the relief.
tnphil
Don't screw with an engineer
Are you kidding??? Laudanum was highly addictive. And yes, a huge problem in that era with addiction.
This is why you don't follow advice on the internet.
Do your homework. The internet is great for research, but anyone can post anything they want-doesn't make it true.
Yeah, the crazy legs. That’s what gets me too.
tnphil
Don't screw with an engineer
My mom had her bladder removed in 1993 (cancer).
Her one remaining kidney was removed in 2010, so complete dialysis 3 times per week until she passed.
They gave her hydrocodone for "bladder spasms" and other nonsense, as well as Valium, etc. I spoke to her doctors in vain, telling them she was addicted. She had "doctor shopped" prior, but the pain doctor said "we don't allow that" and kept refilling the hydro instead of weaning.
In the end, her heart couldn't keep up when depressed by hydro and Valium.
Thank God I can't take codeine or other derivatives.
They tried to prescribe to me for an apicoectomy, but I never filled the RX. That surgery hurts like a mofo but I ain't takin' that crap.
Her one remaining kidney was removed in 2010, so complete dialysis 3 times per week until she passed.
They gave her hydrocodone for "bladder spasms" and other nonsense, as well as Valium, etc. I spoke to her doctors in vain, telling them she was addicted. She had "doctor shopped" prior, but the pain doctor said "we don't allow that" and kept refilling the hydro instead of weaning.
In the end, her heart couldn't keep up when depressed by hydro and Valium.
Thank God I can't take codeine or other derivatives.
They tried to prescribe to me for an apicoectomy, but I never filled the RX. That surgery hurts like a mofo but I ain't takin' that crap.
bev
Has No Life - Lives on TB
Kathy, I’m sorry you’re still having to deal with the wound vac! It’s been a long time.
Now about your lack of sleep, you’ve definitely been posting more since you got home, so maybe that’s not such a bad thing, for us anyway.
It could work either way though - can’t sleep, so you’re on the computer and posting more. OR, you’re posting more and the content is upsetting, so you can’t sleep.
I hope you find some help soon.
Now about your lack of sleep, you’ve definitely been posting more since you got home, so maybe that’s not such a bad thing, for us anyway.
It could work either way though - can’t sleep, so you’re on the computer and posting more. OR, you’re posting more and the content is upsetting, so you can’t sleep.
I hope you find some help soon.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
You need to go get x-rayed and tomorrow!!! Your joint may have been damaged!
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Anti-Liberal
Veteran Member
YES....Back a 100 years or so you could go into a corner drug store and get what you needed without hassle. I wish I could right now, my mouth is killing me.
night driver
ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Fixed it for ya. Smells like a soft tissue injury, for which MRI is the investigational mode of choice.
Reasonable Rascal
Veteran Member
No argument there. But making narcotics available OTC isn't the answer, just as cracking down and making everyone fit into one narrow therapy window isn't either. We will always have abusers, and responsible users, and some for whom the available meds just won't work, hence the need for spinal surgeries, etc.
RR
No, I'm off the wound vac now. It did what it could quickly. It just hurt, really hurt. I have a high pain tolerance, but it was like having a shop vac attached to my shoulder 24/7 sucking painfully, and when they had to change it, all bets were off of whether I would upchuck or just heave. Some of it at the end was "anticipated pain." I had to learn to play the mind game the same way I do to lower my BP when I start having an episode of "White Coat Syndrome."
Now the pain is from the healing process ... the wound is just sore like anything would be when it is raw. It won't ever "close" from the skin re-knitting. I'm going through what they told me is called Secondary Healing where the wound is healing from the inside up. Eventually the tissue and scar that results will act as skin but it will be scar tissue. One end is trying to turn into a keloid scar and that may have to be addressed at some point. The wound is right in the pathway where a bra strap would lay ... would be the operative word as for now I am only able to wear a bandeau. I used a 6x6 cushioned silicon bandage but it covers the wound that is then covered by - for now - a silver embedded felt material cut to size, then a fold of gauze, then the bandage. My skin is oily so sometimes I have to use tape to get the stupid thing to stay stuck where it belongs. Because it doesn't the movement irritates the wound which is where some of the soreness comes from.
I'm a lucky and blessed person. The staph infection was on its way to being septic shock, I was on the border ... definitely septic but only borderline shock. I'm much better off than I probably should be given the complication of the diabetes. But because of that, the side effects of the diabetic medication ... well I can run on but I don't want to sound like some old lady that does nothing but talk about her health. Needless to say I am very sympathetic to Barry and everyone else that is dealing with constant pain of some type. I've watched my mother go through it for years. They take a cookie cutter approach to something that is very individual and sometimes you simply have to advocate for yourself.
KittyKatChic
Senior Member
This is my personal take. I took their pain pills for about 5 years and never became addicted BUT I dosed by my pain level and not the label. Some days I didn't need it at all except maybe at night. I also made them give me tablets so that if I needed a wee bit of help, I could half them. When that doctor retired, the new doc wanted me on the 24/7 extended release crap. That is a bullet train to junkieville. After about 10 days I took them back and said I need to see the doctor, I can't take these. Well... apparently they want you to be a junkie because he refused to give me back the dose as I needed tablets because... those are junkie meds. That was the last time I had a pain management doctor.
Don't be afraid to take the pill when you need it. Especially at night because that is when your body regenerates. Always take one before PT and when they are going to mess with your areas of surgery. But as long as you are aware and judicious, I never had a problem. Everyone is different but as with the extended release crap, I could "feel" myself becoming aware of time.. NOT pain. So I called a full stop on that.
Also like someone said above, I am one of those people who need super high doses to get any pain relief. My body doesn't process opiates/narcotics like most people. They estimated that my uptake was around 20-25% instead of the normal 80% of most people. Maybe that helped to keep me from becoming addicted but I doubt it because they had me at over max doses because of the failure to uptake the med.
Don't be afraid to take the pill when you need it. Especially at night because that is when your body regenerates. Always take one before PT and when they are going to mess with your areas of surgery. But as long as you are aware and judicious, I never had a problem. Everyone is different but as with the extended release crap, I could "feel" myself becoming aware of time.. NOT pain. So I called a full stop on that.
Also like someone said above, I am one of those people who need super high doses to get any pain relief. My body doesn't process opiates/narcotics like most people. They estimated that my uptake was around 20-25% instead of the normal 80% of most people. Maybe that helped to keep me from becoming addicted but I doubt it because they had me at over max doses because of the failure to uptake the med.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
True dat, insurance will demand x-rays first though.
colonel holman
Veteran Member
They you go; more & better info. He was strengthening your gluteus medius, located on the outside of the hip. It is needed to stabilize the inner ligaments of the knee when you step on the leg, by keeping your pelvis level and your balance upright. I usually start this exercise with an empty leg, no weights, because an empty leg is plenty heavy enough. 2 pounds can be a significant load due to the length of the leg being lifted by a short muscle near the pivot point of the hip. Sounds like a sprain to lateral ligament of knee, painful, heels well. May need to rest that for week. Doesn’t need massive strength, more like endurance needed, so little to no weight exercises will suffice.
Actually, studies seem to show that the addiction rate when *everything * (including morphine) was available OTC, the addiction rate was almost exactly the same as it is now.
IOW, a certain, small percentage of the population *is* going to find something that feeds their personal need for "whatever", and they will become addicted.
*Everyone* who takes an opiate, benzodiazipine, or other addictive substance (alcohol) on a frequent, regular basis (essentially often enough and in sufficient quantities that the brain receptors are never "empty") WILL become physically dependent on the substance.
But only a small subset of those will become actual "addicts".
"Addiction" causes actual changes in brain structure and chemistry. It creates a severely dysfunctional thinking pattern, and for most, once developed, is a lifetime battle. Physical tolerance/dependency lasts until withdrawal is complete. And this is where many abusers end up ODing... they "get clean" during a fairly short jail stint (a few weeks, or even less). When they get out, they decide to party with their drug of choice, and use their "usual" dose. Many don't wake up.
But of course, there were laudanum addicts... incant remember which famous writer or playwright was well known for drinking a PINT of laudanum a day! Given that an ounce will kill most "opiate naive" folks, that's an almost unbelievable tolerance! Of course, you had to be financially well off to support that type of habit!
As free human beings, we either have dominion over our own bodies, or we don't. If we don't... we're not free. Period.
Now... that doesn't mean you're free to drive while impaired, or to neglect your children, or any of the other intrinsically wrong behaviors that drug use can lead to. By all means, hammer those abuses, hard!
But telling an 87 year old grandmother, in a wheelchair, with bone on bone knees and hips (along with severe arthritis in her spine and other joints) that she can only take Tylenol... and only twice a day... is absolutely wrong!
The funny thing is, we'll get access to assisted suicide and euthanasia before they ever let pain relief be between the doctor and patient again.
Summerthyme
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I want to thank each and every one of you, who offered your insights to me on this thread.
Especially Colonel Holman.
I will share your comments, Colonel, with my surgeon’s nurse practitioner in the morning. I plan on calling my surgeon’s office as soon as they open tomorrow, and do what they advise me to do.
Especially Colonel Holman.
I will share your comments, Colonel, with my surgeon’s nurse practitioner in the morning. I plan on calling my surgeon’s office as soon as they open tomorrow, and do what they advise me to do.
I have been taking oxcycocet for about 4 yrs now, for knee pain
cant find strength listed on the btl.?
I take 1 every 4 hrs/ max 4 aday
that dosage seems to do as well as I expect.
the pain below the knee discribed by colonel holman is accurate
but that pain only arrived within the last yr.
bone on bone as per xrays.
however, about 3 months ago I started getting severe pain in my shoulder
I had fallen 20 ft in 1980
just b4 I hit the concrete I grabbed a shelving unit to stop my fall
my shoulder hurt for a few min but i continued working and never took a day off
now.. many yrs later, that shoulder will not allow me to sleep
or wear my suspender on that shoulder.
the new pain is sometimes worse than the knee.
I am very leary of going to dr, thinking he will prescribe more/heavier meds.
surgery is out, cuz nearest real hosp is an hr away
and being somewhat of a recluse< I dont have someone to take me there, and wait for hrs.
even for $$
I always tell folks
"remember that shyt you did when you was younger, and walked it off?"
"well, it will come back to bite you, later"
Back about 20 years ago I was in agonizing pain from my back. I took Percocet for years, of course this was when Dr's handed out opioids like candy. Was on 80mg/day near the end. Had back surgery. Within 2-3 weeks was off of Percocet without any issues. Some people get addicted, some don't.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
Barry how are your knees doing?
Barry Natchitoches
Has No Life - Lives on TB
My knees are doing better. They still hurt some - especially after a hard workout - but I am no longer hurting enough to justify opoids.
I am doing well on ibuprofen, tylenol, magnesium, and ice packs.
Plenty of ice packs.
Thanks for asking.
I am doing well on ibuprofen, tylenol, magnesium, and ice packs.
Plenty of ice packs.
Thanks for asking.
Greywolf036
Contributing Member
As some who has gone through a total hip replacement,
Exercise is your friend.
That person will want to stop, take a couple days off from the exercise, BUT DON'T. I'm saying this from
Experience . I did the exercises I was assigned, ice, cold packs.
Also, with the stiff muscles, I had my wife massage my feet, there were alot of knots, she then had my son, massage, and do accupressure
And got those knots released. THAT
was a huge relief!
I also went and bought a vibrating massager, with interchangeable heads to massage the pressure points in my feet, and massage my legs.
Now, be warned, there's a huge risk here. If there's a blood clot it could break loose. So they must use there own judgement.
I will tell you this, releasing those muscles, and pressure points,
Made a difference, doing the exercises, but NOT going over the weight restriction helped as well,
Also, PROTEIN, eggs, red meat, I found, eating them also sped up healing,
wuffdan
Member
I have been on low dose extended release oxycontin for years for an autoimmune disease. I refused to take pain meds for years because of the stigma surrounding them. I may go a week or more without taking any and then a start up again when I find myself sitting in a recliner all day because the pain creeps up on me and I can’t move. Am I addicted to Oxytocin? I don’t believe so, I have no withdrawal symptoms. But I guess I am addicted to living a normal life with little or no pain. If States like Washington spent as much time and money keeping fentanyl off our streets as they do keeping pain meds out of our medicine cabinet our society would be much better off. IMHO
the floating, is why I never take more than prescribed.
I never liked weed cuz I didnt like floating
I still take oxycoset for my knees
the only time in 3 yrs that I ever took an extra, was when I had to crawl on my knees under the house
that was brutal
I never expect ANY drug to take away all the pain
I only want the edge taken off.
My concern is less about the pain medication, and more about his delaying his exercise. TKR is one of the more painful surgeries to recover from, and there is little room for swelling which makes pain more likely from exercise. That said, the exercises are critical for recovery and obtaining full range of motion once healed. He should take the narcotic pain meds as prescribed, one half hour before his scheduled exercise session. Then, ice the knee after exercise to reduce the resulting swelling. The anti-inflammatory meds should be taken on a regular schedule with food to protect the stomach. He can expect pain to be severe with exercise for several months post surgery. Most people I know who have gone through this stop questioning their decision of having had the surgery by around six months. By a year out, they ask themselves why they didn’t do it sooner. It was worth the struggle, and none of them became addicted. He has the right mindset. Now, he just needs to stick with the recovery program.
Bad Hand
Veteran Member
After 8 hand surgeries plus torn ligaments in both wrists, 2 knee surgeries, 2 shoulder and 2 back surgeries that the Doctor damaged my spinal cord doing it, I am talking 1Tramadol every morning just to get out of bed. I take 2 aspirin at night to handle the pain in my hands so I can sleep.
This right here! Very good points. Laudanum was very addictive, and it was over the counter. However, how often did one actually hear of addicted Cowboys? Not very often. Yes, it happened But frequency is not near what one would think. Hence further proof that prohibition does not work. Ever. Not with Drugs, not with Pot, not with Alcohol.
People are going to do what people are going to do. Some will be just fine with it, others not so much. And the not so much category is far fewer than the general population. But the general population gets to suffer because of the few.
Case in point is Alcohol. HAs the general population become alcoholics?
God gave us every plant for a purpose. Used correctly it benefits us. Weed, Alcohol, Heroin, Laudanum, all of it comes from plants. The Weed, Grains, Poppies.
My wife was scheduled for knee replacement next week, but it was cancelled. She is suffering from joint inflammation, and until they can figure out what the cause is, no surgery.
Orion Commander
Veteran Member
When I had knee replacement I found the pain killer prescribed really didn't kill it. I couldn't tell if it worked or not. Sleep was my friend for pain and exhaustion.
What seemed to work was to take meds a little before I knew the pain was coming so it could take the edge off.
I was on crutches for probably four weeks. Then one crutch, then a cane. I took all 12 weeks before going back to work. A coworker who had gone through it went back to work early. She regretted it and told me flat out take the 12 weeks. The last 10 days or so were pretty good. Naps are your friend.
What seemed to work was to take meds a little before I knew the pain was coming so it could take the edge off.
I was on crutches for probably four weeks. Then one crutch, then a cane. I took all 12 weeks before going back to work. A coworker who had gone through it went back to work early. She regretted it and told me flat out take the 12 weeks. The last 10 days or so were pretty good. Naps are your friend.
Jez
Veteran Member
When I had my first meniscus repair my PT used a VR app tied to an exercise bike. It did wonders for getting me back on my feet. He said that the VR app would help people last twice as long on the bike because of the distraction or vocus on the virtual ride. Just wanted to offer this up. I'm getting the other meniscus repair done next month and plan to incorporate VR in my regimen.
Haha...I felt better the moment they got me out of bed the afternoon of the replacement. I had been in that much pain from the end of bones grinding a new displaced socket in my knee joint. Surgical pain is nothing compared to grinding, nauseating bone-on-bone joint pain that I'd been living with for at least a year..haha...working 60 hours/week on cement floors.
I learned by the next day in the hospital that I couldn't tolerate opiate synths (suspected the whole damned class of drugs after one dose of Tylenol with codeine years before) so told them in no uncertain terms to STOP and never again. It's been in my charts ever since. Sure, through a total knee and two shoulder joint replacements, they send me home with bottles of that oxy stuff (because they don't believe me!) but it gets flushed.
Advil, Tylenol, the prescribed stretches and ICE. Was going to the barn to feed with the walker and driving a 5 speed manual truck around the farm the day I got home from the knee. Probably not recommended by the docs, but like Barry, I had "people" responsibilities at home that just did not allow a non-functioning state.
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Night Owl
Veteran Member
Tell your friend to ask doctor’s office to find a PT with a pool so that joints can be worked without weight.
And asking for a friend,…..Why would any doctor approve doing both knees at the same time. That is plain stupid, especially with any geriatric (over 65) patient. Did your friend personally know anyone that did that before him.
I hope your friend will be completely heal and recover soon.
And asking for a friend,…..Why would any doctor approve doing both knees at the same time. That is plain stupid, especially with any geriatric (over 65) patient. Did your friend personally know anyone that did that before him.
I hope your friend will be completely heal and recover soon.
paul bunyan
Frostbite Falls, Minnesota
A few tips if I may:
Narcotics, ie morphine, codeine, oxycontin work in a special way in the body. They basically tell your brain that there is no pain.
Anti inflammatory meds work directly on the cellular damage that causes the pain, blocking swelling and cooling off the immune cells going crazy.
Tylenol, acetaminophen is NOT an anti inflammatory and the dosing given on the label is so conservative that it make no sense.... 2 500mg tabs every 4 to 6 hours for an adult... May work for tiny person, but is under dosing a large person.
I buy acetaminophen by the case. As for the correct acetaminophen dosing, in my opinion.. YMMV....I now at 220 lbs take 3-4 tablets at a time... Do not mix with alcohol. Do not take if you have any type of liver damage or love of the grape.
The Karen's, the public busybodies, have taken over the Idaho Board of Pharmacy and have browbeaten all the medical providers, MD's, DMD's, into thinking they will lose their controlled substance prescribing license if they prescribe pain meds.
Now if you want reasonable pain meds you must sign up for a pain clinic and wear the bright red " A " on your forehead.
And, you must come to the clinic every 30 days for a new RX and the label on your medication vial will say " must last 30 days!" You are screwed if you have a long holiday weekend at the end of your 30 day Rx.
I find an occasional Norco/ Lortab when i am in severe pain and want to sleep, very comforting and NOT addicting
The No drug remedies I use are: for neck/ back pain: heat, massage and best of all an inversion table. I also love a good Ice pack for all joints, but do not have an good ice crusher.
Lately, after long digging and yard work I found that holding a cold can of Pepsi in each hand gives some pain relief.
Good luck and God Bless you all as our bodies rust and break down with age.
The above information is just my opinion and not to regarded as medical, legal or family planning advice. Consult your local experts if you can find them.
Narcotics, ie morphine, codeine, oxycontin work in a special way in the body. They basically tell your brain that there is no pain.
Anti inflammatory meds work directly on the cellular damage that causes the pain, blocking swelling and cooling off the immune cells going crazy.
Tylenol, acetaminophen is NOT an anti inflammatory and the dosing given on the label is so conservative that it make no sense.... 2 500mg tabs every 4 to 6 hours for an adult... May work for tiny person, but is under dosing a large person.
I buy acetaminophen by the case. As for the correct acetaminophen dosing, in my opinion.. YMMV....I now at 220 lbs take 3-4 tablets at a time... Do not mix with alcohol. Do not take if you have any type of liver damage or love of the grape.
The Karen's, the public busybodies, have taken over the Idaho Board of Pharmacy and have browbeaten all the medical providers, MD's, DMD's, into thinking they will lose their controlled substance prescribing license if they prescribe pain meds.
Now if you want reasonable pain meds you must sign up for a pain clinic and wear the bright red " A " on your forehead.
And, you must come to the clinic every 30 days for a new RX and the label on your medication vial will say " must last 30 days!" You are screwed if you have a long holiday weekend at the end of your 30 day Rx.
I find an occasional Norco/ Lortab when i am in severe pain and want to sleep, very comforting and NOT addicting
The No drug remedies I use are: for neck/ back pain: heat, massage and best of all an inversion table. I also love a good Ice pack for all joints, but do not have an good ice crusher.
Lately, after long digging and yard work I found that holding a cold can of Pepsi in each hand gives some pain relief.
Good luck and God Bless you all as our bodies rust and break down with age.
The above information is just my opinion and not to regarded as medical, legal or family planning advice. Consult your local experts if you can find them.
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