GUNS/RLTD How Far Is a Shotgun Deadly?

[Old Gray Mare]

Illustrates the effectiveness of shotgun for home defense. Target bird shot grouping results with a shot gun; varying chokes, barrels: rifled, smooth boar, varying lengths. Targets placed 10, 20, 30 and 40 feet. - OGM

Fair use:
How Far Is a Shotgun Deadly?
Published on Apr 29, 2017
Link to source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38a7L60SLJs

 

[Snyper]

Group size doesn't tell the whole story.

"Bird shot" is for birds, not for self defense.

Buckshot is the only thing that makes sense of you don't use slugs.

 

[Turret Buster]

Dude has an awesome channel. A great way to kill some time. Thanks.

 

[Doc1]

I have long believed that shotguns are the deadliest personal weapons one can legally carry for ranges inside of fifty yards or so. Certain shotties - and certain operators with specific ammunition - might, rarely, extend these ranges out to 100 yards. Within these range parameters, I believe that shotguns are superior weapons than pistol caliber submachineguns.

As others have noted, use buckshot or slugs for defensive use. Birdshot should strictly be used for training or hunting fowl or other light game. On a survivalist note, I really don't like birdshot or buck for survival hunting. The multiple projectiles often damage too much meat and frequently pierce intestines. These things can affect palatability, meat preservation and (potentially) introduce health complications. At close ranges, slugs are very effective on larger animals such as deer and pigs. A simple, accurate .22 rifle is usually a better bet for hunting small game and traps or snares are usually more effective than any rifle for meat harvesting.

Best regards
Doc

 

[Illini Warrior]

forget the UTube - 2 seconds in and he's sucking on a shotgun shell for some strange reason - that's enough for me ....

unless you're using ballistic gel for testing it's all BS - effectiveness is determined by penetration - tearing holes in paper means absolutely nothing ....

 

[Normallguy]

I believe my answer is... Ask a deer.

Jeff

 

[Hognutz]

I've killed deer at 110 yards with 000 buckshot. I never feel undergunned with one...

 

[Cruiser]

I can get hits at 100 yards with my 590A1 with slugs.

 

[1911user]

My slug groups at 100 yards can be covered by 1 hand.
My 00 buckshot groups at 25 yards are about 6". (Yes, it's Federal flite-wad buckshot, but it's what I load for defense use)

What is this birdshot that is being discussed as if it matters for anything larger than birds?

 

[Garryowen]

One of my friends nailed a coyote at 175 yds with a slug. Pretty amazing IMO.

 

[Turret Buster]

My slug groups at 100 yards can be covered by 1 hand.
My 00 buckshot groups at 25 yards are about 6". (Yes, it's Federal flite-wad buckshot, but it's what I load for defense use)

What is this birdshot that is being discussed as if it matters for anything larger than birds?

I think he was using birdshot for demonstrative purposes - to show how it spreads with different chokes. I think......????????

 

[FaithfulSkeptic]

For home protection, just get one of these and load it full of nails, jacks, small nuts and bolts, etc.

 

[Roscoe's Daddy]

ATK's Federal .00 Tactical Buckshot, using their Flitecontrol wad, will achieve at least 12-inches of ballistic gelatin at 50-yards. It is possible that their #1 buckshot load will offer the same performance.

 

[1911user]

I think he was using birdshot for demonstrative purposes - to show how it spreads with different chokes. I think......????????

It is important to understand spread with distance and using various chokes, but this was presented as a defense, not bird hunting, exercise. I may practice with birdshot due to lower cost per round, but it isn't even a consideration for serious use. For serious use, it's a choice between limited-spread 00 buckshot, slugs, or grab a rifle.

 

[hiwall]

I am always surprised when someone says they prefer a shotgun with slugs for defensive use or for hunting (where they are not required to use a shotgun).
To me if you are shooting a single projectile a rifle is always a better choice. More range, more accurate, lighter-less bulky ammo, often larger magazine capacity.

 

[1911user]

I am always surprised when someone says they prefer a shotgun with slugs for defensive use or for hunting (where they are not required to use a shotgun).
To me if you are shooting a single projectile a rifle is always a better choice. More range, more accurate, lighter-less bulky ammo, often larger magazine capacity.

For hunting, especially deer closer to larger populations in some states, they may not have the option of using a rifle.
If the target range is closer to 25 yards, I can load flite-control 00 buckshot and keep a small pattern. For 100 yards, slugs are the only real option with a shotgun.

 

[Dozdoats]

A telling comment - "Nothing on this channel has real scientific value."

I think his point was that it is for entertainment purposes only, and he IS entertaining. Some of his stuff in that video teaches practical lessons. Some of it ... much less so. Like cutting the crimp off the .410 shell, stuffing it with mud and then shooting it.

And it's a pet peeve of mine - anyone who calls shotgun pellets BBs generically. BBs are STEEL and go in BB guns. And there is/was a specific lead shot size called BB. But that's neither here nor there. Oh, and those were choke TUBES. Interchangeable choke tunes, as opposed to fixed chokes.

He switched back and forth a couple of times in his comments from FEET to YARDS. A yard is THREE FEET. His targets were set ten FEET apart. Not ten YARDS. It do make a difference.

Take a look at this 3 minute teaser for Clint Smith's defensive shotgun video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSLxxDWpOI Lots of good stuff boiled down here, the full video is even better, best of all, take a class from a good defensive shotgun instructor.

OBTW - the 'sucking on a shotgun shell' thing is an accepted (and taught in some circles) way of keeping one extra shell ready for a fast single shot reload. And it is 'spit' directly into the chamber, as he did. For him it was showing off - wonder how many takes he had to do to get it right and look kewl?

As an old (and getting older) redneck, I do love me some shotgun. A shotgun, as Clint Smith puts it, will remove bone and meat. At close range it will remove chunks of bone and meat. Most shotgun gunfights last for one round. Given a chance, within a hundred yards, I'll take a shotgun.

The only way to know what YOUR shotgun will do with YOUR barrel/choke combination and YOUR load at a given distance is to pattern it at that distance. This is Shotgun 101 but far too many people overlook it.

My preferred 870 with an 18.5" police cylinder choke barrel will easily put nine pellets of 00 buckshot in a human sized silhouette at 50 yards. And that buckshot will penetrate to about 14" in ballistic gelatin. Ask me how I know.

 

[biere]

A shotgun is a bit like a revolver. You are going to need to be well practiced with it to do well. Perhaps more so than the common glock with a 17 rd mag or the ar with a 30 rd mag. I am not saying rely on round count, but reloads come quicker with a revolver or a shotgun.

And for a single action revolver or a shotgun or every other thing, there are some folks on youtube that are darn impressive.

I consider myself average on a good day when it comes to a shotgun.

I would hunt deer within 50 yards with slugs, and with some practice with some specific and good slugs I could stretch that out. I don't shoot my shotguns very much. When I do it is often 00 buck for varmints in the yard and I often use a slug to put em down after the 00 buck anchors em. Sometimes the 2nd shot is not needed and really the slug is overkill but what can I say, I like 00 buck and slugs. To a large extent a simple 22lr would also do the job, I like shotguns for some things so I am not about to say everyone should copy what I would do. Heck, if everyone copied me I would change just to be different I guess. Talk about something to make me think.

If I was going to rely on my shotgun I would really get into testing various ammo for how it works in my shotgun, patterns for 00 buck at various distances and I would put better sites on to help me make the most of the slugs.

I would spend more money on shotgun shells than I do not on a per shell basis, I buy decent but just kinda "meh" stuff for my shotguns.

A person with some of the rifled slugs, or a rifled slug barrel, and a lot of practice can do amazing things with shotgun slugs. On a reliable basis. I had a neighbor hit a coyote with a slug at a heck of a distance, he admitted he used a lot of kentucky windage and it was partly luck and partly skill.
Biggest regret he had, after the wife stopped yelling, was he wished he skinned out the coyote.

Remington makes a factory slug barrel with rifle sites, I have an 870 wingmaster that needs one of these barrels. I will spend some money on good slugs and see what works well and then stock those slugs for this shotgun and simply do it cause I can.

I don't hunt with my shotgun but if someone did then yeah they are going to pattern bird shot and turkey loads and everything else that is needed for them to hunt what they want to hunt.

It took me a decade or more to finally actually buy a shotgun with changable chokes, and to buy the chokes for it.

A mossberg 590 does everything I care to do within 50 yards with soso ammo, available at wally world or whatever.

I got the older shotgun with the chokes cause I plan to buy some land, well hope to buy some land, and I want to put the shotgun to use then with the chokes and see what I think.

Anything like spitting the shell into the shotgun after having it in your mouth or other stuff, if that person actually trained for it and learned that way then it is sometimes easier to stick with what you know. I would not learn that way now, but I won't hold anything against him for it.

You will see stuff some folks do who are retired, I mostly see it with revolvers and what not. If they practice what they were taught way back when they often are quicker than the newbs who just read and post and shoot a couple times a year.

I consider a shotgun to be a heck of a thing for certain jobs.

On edit. Sometimes folks use birdshot for practice of drills like reloading or sight practice as you shoot multiple targets or something. It often has less recoil than the 00 buck or slugs, but it is cheaper as well. I own a mess of birdshot from wally world I bought just cause it was cheap. I never really use it, but for practicing shotgun drills it will get used.

 

[Publius]

Of all firearms shotguns are notoriously different from each other I.E. no two alike in performance.

 

[Housecarl]

Try this video on the subject....

How Far Will a 12 Gauge Shotgun Kill?
Iraqveteran8888
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F42Bsc8YtnU

 

[Doc1]

My slug groups at 100 yards can be covered by 1 hand.
My 00 buckshot groups at 25 yards are about 6". (Yes, it's Federal flite-wad buckshot, but it's what I load for defense use)

What is this birdshot that is being discussed as if it matters for anything larger than birds?

1911,

Yes to all of the above and that's why I said "certain" guns in my earlier post. I'm a Mossberg 500 series guy and all of my Mossys are solid, accurate shotties - but - I have a Remington 1100 with modified choke that's just spooky accurate. It will group like yours and I've even shot three-shot cloverleafs (all holes in the paper touching) at 65 yards with (certain brand) slugs. None of my Mossbergs will touch that Remington for weird, absolute, accuracy. Now, this doesn't mean that Remington 1100s are better shotguns than Mossbergs (or anything else). As another poster noted, shotguns really do have individual personalities and I've seen super accurate examples of other brands.

I will say that with shotguns, more than most other firearms, you really do have to invest time and expense in learning what ammunition your shotty likes and what it can do at given ranges. It's a worthwhile exercise and you just might be surprised at the better results you can achieve than just buying whatever shells are on sale at a big box store.

Best regards
Doc

 

[ersatzpanther]

Like one or more posters above, I have a Mossberg 500 12Ga and my GF has a 20Ga. I keep 000 in my 12Ga behind the door chambered with safety on. Hers is not normally loaded. She has her Ruger instead.

A slug out of a 12Ga is a seriously bad ass round. I asked an ex-LEO friend of mine about it one time and he said it was developed to stop vehicles by penetrating the engine block through the fender. Having shot them, I can believe it. I'm not sure what I would use a 12Ga slug for other than trying to stop a light armored vehicle, should the need arise.

 

[Dozdoats]

Not all slugs are created equal.

The typical hunting type Foster "rifled slug" is a little teacup shaped projectile of dead soft lead that will flatten out even on unprotected tissue. The teacup shape puts the slug's weight forward, which helps stabilize it in flight, and the "rifling" is there not to make the slug spin but to allow it to squeeze through a shotgun choke. A flattened out soft lead projectile is NOT what you want if you seek penetration from your shotgun slug.

My favorite for years has been the Brenneke KO, their usual lower priced offering. The Brenneke slug is swaged of hard alloy lead, sharp shouldered so it cuts a cookie-cutter like hole, and hard enough not to deform on soft tissue. Stabilization for the Brenneke is provided by its plastic wad, which snaps into a hollow at the base of the slug and acts like the fletching on an arrow in flight. For me they have always been remarkably accurate.

There are law enforcement slugs made of steel that can in some circumstances break up engine blocks, but as far as I know there's nothing like that available to us mere taxpayers.

There is no substitute for knowing YOUR shotgun and its ammunition...

 

[Thinwater]

If yo only have birdshot and want to turn it into a devastating slug like weapon AND wont use it in a semi auto here is a simple method that I have personally tried.

All modern shotgun shells have a plastic wadding under the birdshot. It is around 1/2" thick. Cut into the outside of the shell with a razor knife all of the way around, right in the middle of the plastic wadding, leaving one or two small 1/16" tabs holding the two halves of the shell's casing together.

It is best used in a break action gun due to ejecting the half left in the gun after it is shot.

I found a couple of youttube videos showing it while I was posting this that show how to do it better than I described it above. Link below.

Try at your own risk.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU

Here is another one where you cut the top of the shell off flush, dump out the birdshot, then pour in hot wax while you refill the shot back into the shell, making a wax and shot slug. It holds 6" groups at 100 yards and holds together until it hits. It is like a gaint Glaser slug.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqosJmUS-0

 

[Old Gray Mare]

Not all slugs are created equal.

In my younger and somewhat wilder days we came into possession of a forgotten stash of shotgun shells. The bottoms were brass but the part of the slug that held the powder and shot in place was a heavy white paper. They were old, no idea how old but old. They made a nice pow sound when shot but were basically worthless. The value was gone from the powder.

 

[NoDandy]

I am always surprised when someone says they prefer a shotgun with slugs for defensive use or for hunting (where they are not required to use a shotgun).
To me if you are shooting a single projectile a rifle is always a better choice. More range, more accurate, lighter-less bulky ammo, often larger magazine capacity.

agree!

 

[NoDandy]

Dozdoats. I had a discussion with some friends, about rifled slugs, vs rifled slug barrels. Some thought that rifled slugs should not be used in a rifled barrel, some thought it did not matter. Curious. You seem to know more about shotguns than I do.

Your advice much appreciated ! What do you think?

Regards, NoDandy

 

[Illini Warrior]

I think he was using birdshot for demonstrative purposes - to show how it spreads with different chokes. I think......????????

yes - but he's talking defense - and that's just plain stupid - wrong info that can get people killed needs to be squashed .... having newbies buying $5 boxes of target loads for holding off the badguys is criminal ....

 

[colonel holman]

h

Dozdoats. I had a discussion with some friends, about rifled slugs, vs rifled slug barrels. Some thought that rifled slugs should not be used in a rifled barrel, some thought it did not matter. Curious. You seem to know more about shotguns than I do.

Your advice much appreciated ! What do you think?
Regards, NoDandy

There is a demo on exactly that. showed that rifled slugs in smoothbore work ok, in rifled barrel not as good. sabot slugs for rifled barrel great. 00buck thru a rifled barrel terrible. smoothbores for buck and for rifled slugs. rifled barrel for sabots.

the rifling on rifled slug does not rwlly impart a spin. it merely alliws slug to deform to match the choke of the smoothbore

google rifled slugs rifled barrel to find several great demos

 

[Dozdoats]

Rifled shotgun barrels are for SABOT slugs - slugs with plastic 'shoes' that fall away when the slug exits the bore. Sabot slugs are more expensive than rifled slugs but tend to be more accurate at longer range as well.

Shooting ordinary rifled slugs in a rifled barrel might make them a bit more accurate at first, but that rifled barrel is going to lead up like you wouldn't believe and it will take forever to clean it out. And you had it demonstrated for you what a rifled barrel does to shot patterns - it does the same to buckshot too. I'd rather maintain the versatility of the shotgun at shorter range with a smoothbore barrel than make it a one-trick-pony sabot slug shooter with a rifled barrel.

But that's just me....

 

[Illini Warrior]

If yo only have birdshot and want to turn it into a devastating slug like weapon AND wont use it in a semi auto here is a simple method that I have personally tried.

All modern shotgun shells have a plastic wadding under the birdshot. It is around 1/2" thick. Cut into the outside of the shell with a razor knife all of the way around, right in the middle of the plastic wadding, leaving one or two small 1/16" tabs holding the two halves of the shell's casing together.

It is best used in a break action gun due to ejecting the half left in the gun after it is shot.

I found a couple of youttube videos showing it while I was posting this that show how to do it better than I described it above. Link below.

Try at your own risk.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU

Here is another one where you cut the top of the shell off flush, dump out the birdshot, then pour in hot wax while you refill the shot back into the shell, making a wax and shot slug. It holds 6" groups at 100 yards and holds together until it hits. It is like a gaint Glaser slug.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqosJmUS-0

those UTubes should be banned and that BS shouldn't even be allowed to be posted ....

see your posting for example - eazy peezy - you talk about using a break open for ejecting the crap - how about looking down the barrel for any other crap that got wadded in there? .... how about posting the pictures of the guns that have blown up from that childish play ....

you prep - you prep factory slugs

 

[colonel holman]

Rifled shotgun barrels are for SABOT slugs - slugs with plastic 'shoes' that fall away when the slug exits the bore. Sabot slugs are more expensive than rifled slugs but tend to be more accurate at longer range as well.

Shooting ordinary rifled slugs in a rifled barrel might make them a bit more accurate at first, but that rifled barrel is going to lead up like you wouldn't believe and it will take forever to clean it out. And you had it demonstrated for you what a rifled barrel does to shot patterns - it does the same to buckshot too. I'd rather maintain the versatility of the shotgun at shorter range with a smoothbore barrel than make it a one-trick-pony sabot slug shooter with a rifled barrel.

But that's just me....

rifled barrels are specialized for only sabot slugs ($$) but does extend range to about 150y if you are adequately skilled. Smoothbores more versatile but at less range. everything a compromise, including shotsize

 

[Dozdoats]

Some of us out in flyover country have been working to get longer effective ranges out of fighting shotguns for a while now....and learning lessons in the process. Keep in mind, this was state of the art in 1999. Things have changed since then. And as Louis Awerbuck used to say - "The state of the art is a moving target."

There's more at http://laissezfirearm.info/index.htm if you want.
==================

http://laissezfirearm.info/870full.htm

The 75-Yard Riot Gun?
by LF (1/22/99)

The Package as of 1/5/99
As y'all know, I'm a big fan of the Beretta 1201FP combat shotgun. But guess what? The factory just hosed it up. I was ready to shell out about four hundred and sixty simoleons for a post-Ban five-round model at the last pre-NICS gun show last month when I decided to give the thing a really thorough going-over before handing in that yellow sheet and a stack of bills.

Actually, it was pissing me off that Beretta changed the gun to only hold five rounds although there are no laws which required them to (apparently they wanted to suck up to the law enforcement market, and the easiest way to do that is to offer Officer Donut something that mere civilians can't buy) so I was actively looking for an excuse to blow the purchase off, and hoo-daddy, did I find it.

Get this, not only did they crimp the front end of the magazine (which is typical for this sort of operation), but they also PERMANENTLY ATTACHED THE ENDCAP ASSEMBLY! I depressed the detent and managed to burr the heck out of the threaded and slotted cap with my multi-tool, but could not get it to budge at all in either direction.

If you are not up to speed on repeating scatterguns, what that means is that if your magazine spring kinks up so that one coil slips through another -- which is the most common non-operator malfunction to plague tube-fed shotguns -- you'd have to ship the bastard in to the factory to have it fixed. That's completely unacceptable, especially in a supposedly serious firearm.

So I handed the FFL guy the box back, and bought a Remington 870 Express Magnum instead. The "Express" series consists of Remington's low-rent models, which can be found at any local WalMart or K-Mart. Mine went for just under $250 out the door. I could have gotten one for even less, but I insisted on a synthetic buttstock and forearm, and a barrel that accepted interchangeable chokes.

Oof! I forgot what a difference steel makes. My Beretta has an aluminum receiver and weighs-in at about 6.3 pounds, which to me feels about perfect. The steel receiver on the 870 makes it tip the scales at over seven pounds.

(Greater weight would usually be considered to be better kick-wise, but here is a strange thing about recoil: Big beefy guys can be punished more by it than smaller gents like myself -- although I weigh-in at about 175 pounds of mostly booze flab -- because they generally lack a shoulder "pocket" into which the butt can comfortably be placed. I finally figured that out during Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class. The only students who did not get bruised-up over three days of shooting hundreds of rounds of buckshot, slugs, and birdshot were myself, a slim teenager, and this tall stringy dude.)

The 870's metal had a Parkerized-looking "crackly" finish, which is fairly aesthetically appealing, although I suspect that the reason that Remington chose it was because it better concealed the fact that they changed the triggerguard over to some sort of miracle plastic. Unfortunately, it is NOT Parkerizing, so don't expect it to provide anywhere near that level of corrosion protection.

I enjoyed shooting the thumper, but a big bonus check convinced me to start noodling with the gun.

Another inspiration was Wiley Clapp's recent article "'Tactical' Buckshot & Chokes" in the June '98 edition of American Rifleman. Wiley and pals ran nine different loads of 00- and 000-buck through six different chokes, ranging from cylinder bore (a straight-open barrel) to Full (relatively tightly-constricted at the muzzle-end) to the semi-exotic Vang-Comp special barrel (don't ask), and then listed the number/percentage of the pellets that hit a 12" circle at 25 yards.

What caught my eye about Clapp's article was first that they found a load/choke combo that would put ALL the pellets from four consecutive rounds into the 12" target. Now I recently did a bit on buckshot using an unchoked gun, and the best load I found would put all the pellets from a single cartridge into patterns ranging from 9.25" to 12.5" at only 15 yards. The overall pattern from a total of five rounds was much larger.

Secondly, Clapp claimed that he witnessed a combination (the Vang-Comp with Fed Tactical 000-Buck) that could place all of its pellets onto a man-sized silhouette target at 65 yards!

Now, is THAT something?

I say "Yes" for at least one big reason: Switching over from shot cartridges to a solid slug to do the job at longer ranges is a snorting pain in the ass when you are under pressure.

On the semi-auto 1201FP, where a round is not advanced from the magazine unless the trigger is pulled, the "proper" sequence for sticking in a slug is:
Work the action handle with your right hand to remove the chambered buckshot round, then hold the bolt carrier in the open position.

Use your left hand to roll a slug into the ejection port.

Release the action handle.

Unfortunately, on most pumps the process is more complicated because working the action will alway advance another round, so the "proper" drill with a gun fully-loaded with shot shells is to:
Press the action release.

Rack the slide to clear the loaded round and advance the next round from the magazine.

Stick a slug into the magazine.

Press the action release.

Rack the slide again to eject the second round and bring the slug into the chamber.

Obviously neither system makes the slug option very attractive. The ideal -- sought after for so long by the manufacturers of steel-dart flechette cartridges -- is to find a single load that can serve both close-up and at a distance.

I set down my beer and decided upon a goal. I wanted to see how far away a shotgun could consistently place three 000-buck pellets into the scoring zone of a B-27 target.

. . .

Last month's Gun List had an ad from Cape Outfitters which mentioned Remington 20-inch #6231 cantilever replacement barrels for the 870. This arrangement consists of a steel mount which projects over the receiver, onto which a rifle scope can be attached.

Just got it in today. Once I got the preservative stuff off the thing looked real nice with the exceptions of the rather purplish magazine support and the finish damage where the mount was brazed (or however) on. The barrel was blued and thus did not match the rest of the firearm, but that was not much of a problem as problems go.

Luckily the actual cantilever component is not required, which is a good thing as it is as stupid-looking a contraption as you can imagine. There is already a solid-humping base on the barrel itself, and the extension doohickey attaches to it via four screws and a sloppy indexing flange. The questionable nature of this tack-on rig is exemplified by the fact that there is a rubber button on the underside to prevent the overhang from contacting the top of the receiver. No thank you.

Just looking at the design makes it obvious that Remington's engineers planned on a true forward-mount from the beginning, but their marketing boys probably convinced them that America's geezers would balk at buying something as new-fangled as a PISTOL optic.

The preferred setup is to mount a long eye-relief handgun scope directly on the Weaver-type base on the barrel via the supplied rings, which of course fit it perfectly.


Closer View of the "Scout-Style" Forward Scope Mount Option

(PLEASE NOTE: Remington has changed the design of this barrel type! The new ones look a lot sturdier because they are attaching a solid one-piece cantilever directly, but this eliminates the pistol-scope option. In addition, a "Monte Carlo"-type stock -- which serves to raise the shooter's eyeline an inch or so -- is now standard on the factory complete guns because this method requires the scope to be placed higher than what is comfortable to use with a traditional buttstock. So if you want to follow my lead, be sure to insist on a #6231 while they are still around!)

. . .

I loved the package. It came with an Improved Cylinder choke tube, rifled choke tube, nice rings, choke wrench, etc., all for $125 delivered. Unfortunately, the rings are much thinner clamp-wise than true Weavers and thus are not interchangeable, but since they were "free" and are made of steel, I can't kick too much.

The rifled choke obviously did not interest me much for this project, and the IC was not going to give me much improvement over a standard riot gun's cylinder bore. My 870 came with a Modified choke tube, so I called a distributor and ordered a Full and Extra- Full, which are popular with turkey hunters, for thirteen bucks each so that I could do some mixing and matching. They were out of the Extra-Fulls, which turned out to be a good thing.

The next toy in the shopping cart was a Burris 2x pistol scope with Posi-Lock. (I actually wanted to try out one of their zero-magnification 1x XER scopes, but could not find anyone that sells them.) I saved about $25 by ordering a "Factory Blemish" sample from Natchez Shooter's Supply. The optics were nice and clear, and the only flaw I noticed on the unit was that the threads on one of the covers were very slightly chewed-up.
Apparently the spring-loaded Posi-Lock screw works as advertised because the scope has been holding true since I tightened down the components the first weekend after it arrived.

I also ordered a TacStar sidesaddle shell holder at the same time. When it showed up I followed the instructions to the letter, but surprise, surprise, the pump would not fully retract because it was being blocked. Then I caught the caveat TacStar snuck in:
REMINGTON 870 EXPRESS AND WINGMASTER
A minor modification is required before installation. The shotgun's forend is slightly too long and will cause interference with the SideSaddle. To remedy, remove forend from shotgun and trim approximately 1-3/4" from rear.

Put plainly, I was being instructed to take a saw to a $250 gun in order to mount a $15 accessory. Bullshit. 1-3/4" is more than a "minor" mod -- I consider that a major bit of slice and dice. Another thing that I consider much more pertinent is that when it's cold and wet and you're stoked on adrenalin, you CAN'T have enough forend to hang on to.

So I decided to sacrifice the TacStar's front two loops instead. I whanged off the recommended 1.75" with my hacksaw, and then gave the new sharp edges a few licks with a rough file. I cut off the remaining half-loop with my pocketknife, then drilled and tapped two 6-32 holes near the front end to keep the leading edge of the plastic part from flapping around. I did not use the factory flush-fitting screws because that would've required radiusing the thin plastic around the screw holes. Rather, I cut down two standard Philips screws. They were far enough forward that their exposed heads did not interfere with extracting the muzzle-end shell.


The Stumpy Sidesaddle
It just so happened that I'd been sitting on an 870 extended magazine tube for four or five years, which came into my possession in exchange for about fifteen bucks worth of ammo. It cranked on tight and holds securely after hard use, thanks perhaps in part to the spring-loaded detent ball positioned on the cantilever's forward attachment point, an amenity Remington no longer bothers to provide on their cheaper barrels these days. Also, they cutely try to discourage the use of high-capacity devices by placing two crimps at the end of the factory tube. It took all of two minutes to drill them out with my Black & Decker cordless. (For more information on what the BATF boys insist that you legally can and cannot do with a shotgun, check out the handy Rec.Guns overview at http://www.recguns.com/IIM.html.)
When I was installing the mag extension I noticed the flimsiness of the thin plastic shell follower, and ordered a Choate non-bind replacement ($5). It's a solid chunk with a "tail" which is supposed to help prevent the spring from kinking-up. It's also bright orange, so you can tell at a glance whether there are rounds in the magazine . . . although that's a questionable safety practice, especially after the advent of all-plastic shotshells years ago.

Next up was a jumbo-head safety ($7). The factory unit was small enough to require a deliberate effort to locate and disengage it. The replacement sticks WAY out, and readily pops off when I crook my finger around the trigger, which is exactly right. I used to be a big fan of tang-mounted safeties on shotguns (ala the Browning BPS and the various Mossbergs), but this system is superior in that it demands even less thought.
Two other quick modifications were required to attach a sling. First, I drilled the back of the buttstock (well ahead of the lower buttplate screw's path) so that it would accept an Uncle Mike's 3/4" wood QD stud. There's a strengthening rib along the bottom edge of the stock, so there's no worry of it pulling free. Next I stuck an extra Beretta 1201FP forward sling swivel around the mag extension. After puzzling over how to keep it in place, I dug a small hose clamp out of the tool kit and used that to hold the swivel up against the knurled cap at the mag extension's rear.

. . .

Patterning Test Results, Full Choke @ 25 Yards

Sellier & Bellot 12-Pellet 00 (48 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 25 (52%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 7 (15%)

Remington Nickle-Plated 12-Pellet 00 Magnum (48 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 33 (69%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 12 (25%)

Federal Standard 9-Pellet 00 (36 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 22 (61%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 3 (8%)

Federal "Tactical" Copper-Plated 00 (36 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 25 (69%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 8 (22%)

Patterning Test Results, Modified Choke @ 25 Yards

Sellier & Bellot 12-Pellet 00 (48 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 22 (46%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 3 (6%)

Estate Cartridge Reduced Recoil 9-Pellet 00 (36 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: ( %)

Pellets in 6" Circle: ( %)

Remington Extended Range Nickle-Plated 12-Pellet 00 Magnum (48 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 35 (73%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 11 (23%)

Federal Standard 9-Pellet 00 (36 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 23 (64%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 9 (25%)

Federal "Tactical" Copper-Plated 00 (36 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 29 (81%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 15 (42%)


Other Loads and Doo-Dads
Since I have a wealth of crap to play with and an insatiable lust for recoil, I played around with mixing and matching the various pieces parts.

#1 Buckshot
Here's a tip that I picked up off the neat Firearms Tactical site (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm):

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

It just so happened that I had a box of Winchester 2-3/4" #1 Buck sitting in my closet, so I gave it the same treatment outlined above with the modified choke in place:
Winchester 20-Pellet #1 Buck Magnum (80 pellets total) @ 25 Yards
Pellets in 12" Circle: 34 (43%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 8 (10%)

Obviously, the key to the FT quote is your definition of "typical shotgun engagement distances". Most folks use them for home defense, where 25 feet would be a long shot, and up-close patterns would obviously be much tighter. So for indoors, the #1 buck makes perfect sense for the reasons given.

greater distances, #1 has problems. The larger groups I experienced increase the chances of missing a target with one or more pellets, which will be much more likely to endanger bystanders than a hit which overpenetrates. Second, each pellet of #1 only weighs 40 grains (the same as a .22 Long Rifle roundnose bullet), whereas a piece of 00 buck is just shy of 54 grains, and 000 weighs 68 grains. The greater heft of the larger sizes means more effective penetrating power at longer ranges.

That Rifled Choke Tube
I snagged four boxes of sabot slugs earlier this year when a local WalMart clearanced out a big chunk of its ammo supply after hunting season ended. With the Remington rifled tube in place, I fired five three-shot groups at fifty yards. The largest was 1.875", and the smallest ran 1.1". That's pretty impressive.
Just for yucks, I put four rounds of the Federal reduced recoil buck through the tube at to see what effect the twist would have on the shot at 25 yards:

Federal "Tactical" 9-Pellet 00 Reduced Recoil (36 pellets total)
Pellets in 12" Circle: 8 (22%)

Pellets in 6" Circle: 1 (3%)

That is not very impressive. As the second set of numbers hint, the group was rather doughnut shaped, with a big ol' patch of nothing in the middle. It's even worse performance than most unchoked guns could deliver.

Finally, rifled tubes are meant to work with sabots. Foster-type slugs won't gain anything from the experience.

Slugs Out of the Mod Tube
I was actually glad that the modified tube proved better for buckshot than the full, because I'd be kind of uncomfortable shooting slugs through the tighter choke.

I practiced loading slugs from the TacStar while in the prone position (which is a mite clumsy), and shot four 4-shot groups with 1-oz. Winchester standard 2-3/4" at fifty yards. The smallest went just under 2", and the largest was 3.6". The scope helped make the results a lot more consistent than what I typically get from rifle-sighted shotguns as there were no fliers, but I did not fully appreciate that fact until moving to a bench.
Using my pistol case as a rest, I fired four 4-round groups at 100 yards. The results ranged in size from 3.1" to 4.7", with all the rounds falling comfortably inside the 6" black scoring area of an NRA SR-21 bullseye. That's the type of performance I'd expect from an old military rifle with iron sights firing surplus ammo -- which may not sound like high praise, but keep in mind that:
At that distance, Foster-type slugs are about at the limit of their performance envelope when fired from a 20" barrel.
They're coming out of a smoothbore.

The soft lead projectiles are getting squished slightly when passing through the RemChoke.

All things considered, that kind of accuracy is pert' near astonishing.

. . .
On to fifty yards!

(More MAY be on the way . . .)

 

[hiwall]

Dozdoats. I had a discussion with some friends, about rifled slugs, vs rifled slug barrels. Some thought that rifled slugs should not be used in a rifled barrel, some thought it did not matter. Curious. You seem to know more about shotguns than I do.

Your advice much appreciated ! What do you think?

Regards, NoDandy

Right on the standard slug box it always used to say "Suitable for any shotgun in sound condition."
So they will work in any shotgun but there might be better choices for your particular gun.

 

[Doc1]

Rifled shotgun barrels are for SABOT slugs - slugs with plastic 'shoes' that fall away when the slug exits the bore. Sabot slugs are more expensive than rifled slugs but tend to be more accurate at longer range as well.

Shooting ordinary rifled slugs in a rifled barrel might make them a bit more accurate at first, but that rifled barrel is going to lead up like you wouldn't believe and it will take forever to clean it out. And you had it demonstrated for you what a rifled barrel does to shot patterns - it does the same to buckshot too. I'd rather maintain the versatility of the shotgun at shorter range with a smoothbore barrel than make it a one-trick-pony sabot slug shooter with a rifled barrel.

But that's just me....

Doz,

"Rifled" slugs for smoothbore shotguns are a marketing trick, nothing more. It's one of those marketing (or hype, if you prefer) phenomenon that have been out there for so long that they've made the transition into accepted conventional wisdom. Here's the real deal: First, the rifling on a rifled slug does absolutely nothing to impart any spin to the projectile. Remember that a rifle bullet, at the moment of firing, is actually swaged into the lands and grooves of a rifled barrel. This action of forcing a slightly oversized projectile into the rifling provides a mechanical key to the bullet, forcing it to spin with the rifling as it travels down the bore.

Unrifled shotgun barrels - most of which have highly polished bores - are actually oversized compared to the diameter of a slug. This is the exact opposite of the relationship of a bullet to a rifle bore. There is nothing for the rifled slug, or its cast rifling, to key into in a shotgun's bore; it effectively rattles down the smooth barrel, literally bouncing from side to side, until it leaves the muzzle. Additionally, manufacturers all know that inevitably some user will shoot a slug through a full choked barrel, so they all intentionally make the slugs considerably smaller in diameter than the bore dimensions. A lot of shooters accept this so far, but then believe that the rifling cast into a rifled slug uses air resistance to begin imparting spin as soon as it leaves the muzzle. Many studies have been done on rifled slug performance which wholly refute this notion. Again, the only effect the "rifling" has on a slug is cosmetic. It's a marketing tool.

Needless to say, rifled shotgun barrels are totally different than smoothbore barrels and their effect on the correct shotgun slugs designed for them is more akin to a bullet travelling down a rifle bore. Personally, I see no practical advantage for a rifled shotgun unless local hunting laws mandate their use.

Best regards
Doc

 

[SmithJ]

Also, I have heard although I haven't experienced it myself, that if you shoot buckshot through a rifled slug barrel the centrifugal force play havoc with your pattern. Causing a large donut hole.

 

[Thinwater]

those UTubes should be banned and that BS shouldn't even be allowed to be posted ....

see your posting for example - eazy peezy - you talk about using a break open for ejecting the crap - how about looking down the barrel for any other crap that got wadded in there? .... how about posting the pictures of the guns that have blown up from that childish play ....

you prep - you prep factory slugs

I dont have any blown up guns from playing with this stuff so I cant post any pictures. If I ever blow one up, I will. There is also never anything left in the barrel either so I cant post pictures of that.

These are merely ideas for someone who gets caught with little or no ammo or persons such as myself, who actually try all kinds of things for entertainment and fun. I have dozens of cases of ammo including several cases of buckshot, slugs, birdshot and so on. It is still fun to make something yourself and blast something with it. People have been shooting cut shells for decades and I have personally played with them for over 30 years with no issues. I have been a licensed firearms and ammo manufacturer for almost ten years and actually make things that go bang because it is fun and I like doing it.

I still make homemade guns, from slam fire pipe guns to break action shotguns from parts I cut on the plasma cutter then weld together. I also make billet AR15 receivers from scratch and at one time was producing over 500 AR15 uppers and lowers from forgings a day (Combined total), and manufactured them for over 100 other name brands with their manufacturers markings on them.

I am sorry you take personal offense to something I posted and want it banned. I just thought others might enjoy playing with some of the same things that I have enjoyed over the years.

 

[Dozdoats]

"Cut" shells as I understand it are an artifact of the Great Depression, when no one could afford slugs for their shotguns. Even long after the Depression, when I was a kid, my dad in his little country store sold shotgun shells individually to people who could not afford a whole box of 25.

It isn't something shotguns were designed to do - the chamber of a shotgun is a good bit bigger than the bore diameter, and the bore was designed to pass what is INSIDE the shell, not the whole forward end of the shell.

Fortunately for a lot of people, most modern shotguns at so overdesigned that shooting 'cut' shells is manageable, if not necessarily a wise thing to do.

But there are a lot of tired old shotguns out there that are basically accidents in waiting. Some of them have Damascus barrels even.

Some people seem to like their eyes, faces and fingers more than others...

 

[hiwall]

I have played making some wax slugs. Just for the heck of it. As a retired gunsmith I could see no way these would be harmful. One of the ones I made turned out to be a squib load. The wax must have been thin enough to work down and foul the powder. Obviously it acted and sounded way different and I made sure the bore was clear before firing again(it was clear).
Cut shells I have never done. When using cut shells you are forcing something down the barrel that is bigger than the bore size. Obviously this will increase pressure in the barrel. But I have never heard of one of these blowing up a gun. Barrels are often proofed to way higher pressures than the normal cartridges produce.
I don't really see much advantage to either of these acts other than for entertainment.

 

[2dollarbill]

I'm with Thinwater on this one. Take a $5.97 box of 25 #8 birdshot and turn them in to a devastating box of self defense rounds
with a couple hours of labor. Those shells were accurate out to 50-75 yards as well. I'd rather have them over 00 buck rounds
just for the accuracy. 1 1/8 oz load released on contact. Pure shooting enjoyment. Single shot or pump actions only. My semi
never did well with them.

2db