ENER Houses w/ solar panels as SOL as everyone else in Calif recent blackouts

[MinnesotaSmith]

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/10/the_california_blackouts_and_solar_power.html

October 14, 2019
The California blackouts and solar power

By J.R. Dunn

"One valuable lesson has been learned from the California blackouts concerning the greens' vaunted solar power.

People with solar panels fitted to their homes have long acted under the impression that these granted them some immunity to blackouts. They now know better. Those who went to the heavy expense of purchasing and installing solar panels are in the same situation as their neighbors: no light, no heat, no power.

How does this make sense? If you've got a system that generates power all by itself, with no outside aid or assistance necessary, then it's a sure thing that it'll continue generating power even after the grid itself is shut down, right?

Ah, but we're dealing here with corporate policy. And when that enters the picture, then sense of any kind quickly departs the stage.

It turns out that solar panels do not supply power to the homes they are attached to. Instead, they transmit power out into the grid itself. A complex system of credits is employed to reimburse the homeowner.

And when the grid goes down, due to storms, sabotage, or left-wing politics, well, the solar panels that you can see right atop your roof, they go down, too.

The downside of being connected to the grid is that if there is a blackout your solar system will not work. All grid-tied solar systems are installed with an automatic shutoff switch which turns off your solar system in a power outage.

Pacific Gas & Electric has not gone out of its way to hide this, but it hasn't gone out of its way to publicize it, either. The information can be found — as above — on almost all solar power sites, if only on the back pages. You need to look for it, and if you don't know it's there, why would you look?

The claim here is that it's done for safety reasons — they don't want "live wires" to threaten the linemen. This is transparent nonsense. The amount of current coming from a solar panel is scarcely enough to pop the hat off a flea as is, and in any case, since the grid has been shut down due to left-wing political finagling as opposed to any kind of damage, repairmen don't enter the equation anyway.

As for the real reasons, they remain murky. As with most bureaucratic mysteries of this type, I suspect they comprise a mixture. Here it would be "rules is rules — solar panels are power generators and all power generators must be shut down on orders of Mother Gaia," along with a desire to stifle any urge toward off-the-grid independence on the part of customers.

It is possible to install solar panels that are not a part of the grid (there's also a third solution involving batteries, but this strikes me as industry trying take advantage of a captive market). So if you want to go the solar route, it's probably best to dismiss subsidies and whatever pennies the power companies are willing to throw you and go fully independent.

What can't be denied here is that we're learning an awful lot from the California shutdown — much of it stuff that the powers-that-be would rather we didn't know."

 

[Bubble Head]

Solar works and you can make it work for you but it is expensive. It will give you independence. That is what you have to weigh against the cost. You have to install what is called a Hybrid System. Not cheap since it uses batteries, generator, and control panel all attached to the grid so excess can be credited back. Either that or you just go off grid entirely but you still need batteries and a generator along with an inverter. There are limitations and you have to accept them if you go straight off grid solar. Solar only works when the sun is out. This rule will not change.

 

[summerthyme]

there's also a third solution involving batteries, but this strikes me as industry trying take advantage of a captive market

Er, no, dumbass! It's the ONLY practical way to use solar for your house, unless you don't really care if you have working refrigerator, freezer or lights during the 12 hours or so of darkness every day! Not to mention during cloudy weather or other times when conditions are less thsn optimum.

Summerthyme

 

[Miradus]

That's a very poorly written and researched article.

I would suspect that a substantial number of the readership of this forum live on solar power. And of that number, I bet a substantial number (like me) put together their own solar rigs.

The 'grid' here on the Big Island is probably ten times as flaky as the California grid, but I don't know it's out until I drive to the 'kine' for something and discover they can't take credit card because their power is out. My own household is completely disconnected and our power supply (and internet) is completely uninterrupted due to grid loss.

The article is speaking specifically of grid-connected homes where they sell the power back. They aren't on a private circuit. They went solar for the tax breaks and 'selling' power ... not for the convenience of having power when everyone else doesn't. When the grid cuts off power to their neighborhood, the grid also controls their home. Their panels are STILL generating power, but because it's on a dead circuit it can't be utilized.

 

[Hfcomms]

Houses w/ solar panels as SOL as everyone else in Calif recent blackouts

Only those dumb enough and uneducated enough on the subject matter to have a grid-tie system. People with stand alone solar systems with perhaps wind and/or a backup generator are doing just fine. If you could only get credits and subsidies with a grid tie system I'd do it but then after it's done and I get my rebates I'd then put in a transfer switch where I could isolate my panels from the commercial mains and put it through a charge controller and into my battery bank.

 

[Miradus]

Solar works and you can make it work for you but it is expensive. It will give you independence. That is what you have to weigh against the cost. You have to install what is called a Hybrid System. Not cheap since it uses batteries, generator, and control panel all attached to the grid so excess can be credited back. Either that or you just go off grid entirely but you still need batteries and a generator along with an inverter. There are limitations and you have to accept them if you go straight off grid solar. Solar only works when the sun is out. This rule will not change.

We have batteries and 2 solar panels that generate (under full sun) 540 watts/hour. Our standard household usage is 360 watts/hour.

The batteries absorb the excess during the day and powers the fridge at night.

This is a top-of-the-line system by Outback and it cost $3200. I can expand it out to 8 panels total at a cost of $260 more per panel or $600 to double my battery capacity.

It's warrantied for 5 years and expected lifespan is 15 years. If you look at just the 5 years, consider that I'm paying $53 a month to power my household. If it lasts the full 15 years, I pay $17 per month.

For heavy loads, such as running power tools or popping popcorn in the microwave, I turn on our Honda generator. If we go more than 2 days without much sun, I need to run the Honda for about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries back up.

Cost per hour on the Honda generator is ~$1.70 ... not including the amortized cost of the generator over its projected lifespan.

 

[Profit of Doom]

“ The amount of current coming from a solar panel is scarcely enough to pop the hat off a flea as is, and in any case, since the grid has been shut down due to left-wing political finagling as opposed to any kind of damage, repairmen don't enter the equation anyway.”

It’s the possible voltage, idiots. If your power is perhaps 20,000 volts coming into your transformer and 240 out of that into your house, your panels would be forcing 240 into that transformer, with 20,000 out of it onto the branch circuit on that pole. When it should be shut down for repair and you are energizing the line, that is when you can kill someone.

 

[WalknTrot]

I read this article someplace else, and thought...are people really that dense and UN-mechanical that they don't know they aren't storing any for themselves?

Scary.

 

[Bubble Head]

“ The amount of current coming from a solar panel is scarcely enough to pop the hat off a flea as is, and in any case, since the grid has been shut down due to left-wing political finagling as opposed to any kind of damage, repairmen don't enter the equation anyway.”

It’s the possible voltage, idiots. If your power is perhaps 20,000 volts coming into your transformer and 240 out of that into your house, your panels would be forcing 240 into that transformer, with 20,000 out of it onto the branch circuit on that pole. When it should be shut down for repair and you are energizing the line, that is when you can kill someone.

Exactly right. That is why you need a Hybrid like the Outback 8048 control system if you want to sell excess back to the grid and primarily use it for yourself.

 

[Bubble Head]

I read this article someplace else, and thought...are people really that dense and UN-mechanical that they don't know they aren't storing any for themselves?

Scary.

Pretty much right on. People really don't understand solar and its limitation. Nor do they understand electric cars. Nor can they write informative articles. You just have to do a lot of research on your own.
I especially want to thank all those on this Board with their vast knowledge of Solar. It gave me the direction and incentives I needed to put a system together and I fully understand its limitations. You are truly a treasure of knowledge. Thank you.

 

[Miradus]

I'm not sure I'm included in that thank you but I'll accept it anyway.

I could talk about solar and its plus and minus qualities all day long. I am a big believer in individuals being off-grid, but also in de-centralizing the grid in general.

Most everything I learned about this came about either through me destroying an expensive piece of equipment or getting help from someone else. And I still got a lot to learn. I'm not a power guy.

 

[Freeholder]

I've never been able to understand the people who do a grid-tied solar system. The sole attraction of solar for me is that you can be completely independent of the grid, if you can get enough sun and you have a big enough battery bank to go for a few days of cloudy weather.

Kathleen

 

[Miradus]

I've never been able to understand the people who do a grid-tied solar system. The sole attraction of solar for me is that you can be completely independent of the grid, if you can get enough sun and you have a big enough battery bank to go for a few days of cloudy weather.

Kathleen

It frees you from several low-level tyrannies as well.

Consider that a lot of regions have building permit systems which exclude 'off grid' homes. Meaning the permit process doesn't come into play unless you hook up to the grid, either water or power.

Off-grid homes in some locations are also charged different rates for property taxes. In our county in Texas, I was able to convince the local assessment office that since we were not connected to power we were not a "finished" structure, and thus was charged 60% lower per square footage.

The electric companies in many areas act also as spies for the state, reporting your usage and such to law enforcement as well as selling your data to outside parties.

There's also at least one unexpected health benefit I got from transitioning to fully off-grid ... no more insomnia. Now by 8-9pm when it's dark out, I'm like a rooster ... I tuck my head under a wing and go straight to sleep. Artificial lighting really screws up your natural rhythms.

 

[hiwall]

I had checked into one of the (free) leased systems several years ago. Yes, it did not work if the grid was down but the company (solar city I think) would install a battery system so we would always have power. They said it would cost us five grand for the batteries and extra hook-ups.

Edited to add: this was in AZ

 

[jed turtle]

Yeah the batteries are the really expensive part. I replaced my original 48 -6 volt deep cycle batteries after 5 years with 24 - 2 volt deeper cycle batteries about 3-4 years ago. Should be good for another 15 years or so. I’ll be nearly 85 by then and maybe lithium ion batteries (or something better) will be affordable by then. And whatever, I lived without any power for 13 years so I guess I will survive come what may.

 

[tech020]

The missing ingredient in this solar power equation is TESLA. Here in Minnesota, the utility does allow a grid tied system with a Tesla "PowerWall" which is a battery pack in a steel cabinet with an inverter/charger and bypass switch controlled by a microprocessor that will not allow power to flow to the grid unless the grid is fully operational. Our solar panels charge the battery pack before selling any power back to the utility. Then when the sun goes down, we run overnight on our stored solar power. In case of cloudy days, we use the grid and then average out on days when we generate. Pretty cool system and it has worked flawlessly since installed in early 2018.

 

[LoupGarou]

DISCLAIMER: The following is for educational use only and should not be done at home unless you know what you are doing.

If you have one of the battery-less grid-tied systems you are not totally screwed if the grid goes down, provided you understand how electricity works and have three things:

1. You have a way to physically disconnect your system FULLY from the grid (no input or output to the grid). This can usually be accomplished by killing the breakers or disconnect that ties your system to the grid, while leaving your system connected to your house.

2. You have a trusty 240 volt Pure Sine Wave inverter and battery pack (not the smaller 120 volt ones).

3. Two 100 watt incandescent bulbs with sockets.

Grid tied systems only start producing power if they can detect the power coming in from the grid to synchronize to. If you can kill the actual link to the grid, turn off the majority of the loads in your house (especially all the big ones), then connect your Pure Sine wave inverter to a 240 volt socket in your house through two 100 watt bulbs as a ballast.

Again, don't try this at home if you don't know what you are doing. But if you do, then you will see the bulbs flicker and then stop and then you should have power at all of your outlets. You should be able to pull about 70% of what the panels are rated for when they are in full sunlight. So if you have 10KW of panels, you should be able to pull around 7KW and use it. If you try to pull too much the system might have a voltage sag enough to make it go back into safety shutdown.

You will also need to keep the battery powered Pure Sine wave inverter running as long as you are pulling from the solar array because the array will often check to see if the "grid" is still there by pulling their output for a tiny part of the cycle and see if the power drops during that point. Unless you have some big loads, it should stay running as it sees the fake "grid" continue. You can always have a small solar panel keeping that battery charged that is feeding the inverter, or if you are crafty, use a 240V AC isolation transformer between the inverter and your house and then use a normal battery charger to keep the battery full.

Never give up, there usually is a way to get things like this working. Sometimes you have to channel your inner MacGuyver, sometime you have to channel your inner Rube Goldberg...

Loup

 

[hiwall]

The missing ingredient in this solar power equation is TESLA. Here in Minnesota, the utility does allow a grid tied system with a Tesla "PowerWall" which is a battery pack in a steel cabinet with an inverter/charger and bypass switch controlled by a microprocessor that will not allow power to flow to the grid unless the grid is fully operational. Our solar panels charge the battery pack before selling any power back to the utility. Then when the sun goes down, we run overnight on our stored solar power. In case of cloudy days, we use the grid and then average out on days when we generate. Pretty cool system and it has worked flawlessly since installed in early 2018.

On the Tesla website they say the Powerwall battery pack needs access to the internet (or cell service) to function. If you have the internet down for 2-3 days the battery pack will shut off.

 

[Double_A]

On the Tesla website they say the Powerwall battery pack needs access to the internet (or cell service) to function. If you have the internet down for 2-3 days the battery pack will shut off.

Well shoot, you're gonna make me go there and read it for myself. If this is true Tesla
has another failure on its hands.


ETA:
Well it does appear that you need an internet connection so it can monitor your homes energy use and configure it to optimal performance.
Which is really none of Tesla's business.

Cross Tesla power wall off my list.

Does every F'n company in the world NEED to monitor our private affairs?

 

[Hi-D]

I'm not grid tied.

But I am pretty sure that anyone that pays out that kind of money knows what they are getting. I have had the state building inspector ask me if I could really do that and yes I can and I am. Run a geothermal heat pump,(heat only 5,300 ft. it is 29 out right now)charge a battery bank and charge a Nissan Leaf. At times, all at the same time. Nissan make a Xstorage system (like Power Wall) but lets the power from the car go both ways. Only made for the European market so far. When I get something like that the backup generator will only run for maint. or really bad weather for several days.

I tried a little wind power but this is not the place for wind, if it was I would move.

 

[end game]

It frees you from several low-level tyrannies as well.

Consider that a lot of regions have building permit systems which exclude 'off grid' homes. Meaning the permit process doesn't come into play unless you hook up to the grid, either water or power.

Off-grid homes in some locations are also charged different rates for property taxes. In our county in Texas, I was able to convince the local assessment office that since we were not connected to power we were not a "finished" structure, and thus was charged 60% lower per square footage.

The electric companies in many areas act also as spies for the state, reporting your usage and such to law enforcement as well as selling your data to outside parties.

There's also at least one unexpected health benefit I got from transitioning to fully off-grid ... no more insomnia. Now by 8-9pm when it's dark out, I'm like a rooster ... I tuck my head under a wing and go straight to sleep. Artificial lighting really screws up your natural rhythms.

How do you deal with the heat? I calculated the amount I would need to power my home and could not make a system work due to the cost. I'm more than a crow flies from the metroplex.

 

[Raffy]

We have batteries and 2 solar panels that generate (under full sun) 540 watts/hour. Our standard household usage is 360 watts/hour.

The batteries absorb the excess during the day and powers the fridge at night.

This is a top-of-the-line system by Outback and it cost $3200. I can expand it out to 8 panels total at a cost of $260 more per panel or $600 to double my battery capacity.

It's warrantied for 5 years and expected lifespan is 15 years. If you look at just the 5 years, consider that I'm paying $53 a month to power my household. If it lasts the full 15 years, I pay $17 per month.

For heavy loads, such as running power tools or popping popcorn in the microwave, I turn on our Honda generator. If we go more than 2 days without much sun, I need to run the Honda for about 3 hours to fully charge the batteries back up.

Cost per hour on the Honda generator is ~$1.70 ... not including the amortized cost of the generator over its projected lifespan.

"Watts/hour" is not a valid unit of power. It's simply "watts". A watt is defined as one joule of energy generated per second of time. The joule is the unit of energy in the metric system, but energy can also be expressed in terms of watt-hours. This is the average power times the number of hours it is generated (or used). Your solar panels probably generate 540 watts of power under full sun, and your average household power use is probably simply 360 watts. How much energy your system generates in a day would then be that 540 watts times the number of hours of sunlight in a day (yes, your system will not generate the full 540 watts all day long because the incident angle of the sunlight changes, but I'm ignoring that for the moment).

To the OP: I think a lot of people in SoCal tied their systems to the grid in order to take advantage of tax breaks and so they could amortize the costs of the system by feeding power back to the grid. This isn't necessarily bad, but they should have a way to switch their system to disconnect from the grid when it goes down and then be able to power their own home completely off the grid. The circuitry to accomplish that is not extremely complicated, and I'm surprised that many of them apparently don't have that capability. But then again, it is southern California, and wisdom is not that locality's strong suit!

 

[20Gauge]

Houses w/ solar panels as SOL as everyone else in Calif recent blackouts

Only those dumb enough and uneducated enough on the subject matter to have a grid-tie system. People with stand alone solar systems with perhaps wind and/or a backup generator are doing just fine. If you could only get credits and subsidies with a grid tie system I'd do it but then after it's done and I get my rebates I'd then put in a transfer switch where I could isolate my panels from the commercial mains and put it through a charge controller and into my battery bank.

This is what would make sense. Then again we are talking about people in California.

 

[Millwright]

Brainwashed drones saving a whale....too stupid to research the subject.

One day they will be eating spotted owl and snail darters.



I had a younger family member call, after he was beat up by a solar company, sales slut. Told him what a good deal it was, money savings...yada-yada.

Long & short of my response...

"Look out your kitchen window, do you see panels on every house?"

"UMMMM, no"

"Well, there you have it."

 

[Dobbin]

Its a matter of economics:

You pay your money up front for a stand-alone system, and get payback continuously over the LIFE OF THE SYSTEM (and most batteries do have a life) and take some personal comfort in being self sufficient as far as electricity goes.

Or you buy "grid connected" and pay your money over time, defer payback to only what you save in initial cost over above AND what you can glean in monthly electric bill - and pay occasionally in "availability cost" when grid is not available. And, when the grid is there, take comfort in your "investment" in solar. And possibly even "virtue signal."

Or - you can do as Owner has done - and NOT buy into either of the two regimes, continue to pay for electricity on an "as needed basis" - and meanwhile try to limit your need by conservation, LED technology, and alternates including hydronic solar. An energy plan which has its own "virtue signal" and one which humans have been following since electricity was invented.

The neighbor has done the "grid tied" option 2. He has a company who installed solar panels on his house, arranged for a "net metering" arrangement for him, maintains his panels (they're insured against fire, damage by hail or trees, or causing deficiencies to his home like roof leaks) and he basically gets free electricity. HOWEVER, he has invested upwards of $40K in his system - which has a "time value of money" cost to him personally. Grid Tie Owner can't invest that money in stocks or bonds and realize a continuous growth AND return on that money - so in effect his electricity is costing him the time value income from that $40K.

You can buy a lot of Grid electricity with the income from that $40K.

AND - to add insult to injury, Grid Tie Owner lost his job and would dearly now like to have that $40K in investment position he could call on if need be. As it is it is invested in those solar panels, and unlike usual capital investments of stocks and bonds, the money is "frozen." Its now equivalent to a Certificate of Deposit (CD) which can NEVER be redeemed.

So its a matter of choice - and preference. Free market being what it is one can be PRETTY ASSURED that each option has a similar cost overall.

Dobbin

 

[subnet]

Having lived there and provided two quotes from different companies on installing solar power on our house;
I can tell you for a fact, that at that time ( around 5 years ago) they did not offer battery backup installation and I was told by both companies, that I would have to hire someone/a different company to set it up ect...
I told them piss off, as the only reason I wanted it, was for loss of power, as they could only promise a 20 a month savings off our regular bill, at the time.
In the end, the main goal is to get the 20k for the install and make money off selling the excess to the power company.

 

[Hi-D]

Life and economics.

Its a matter of economics:

You pay your money up front for a stand-alone system, and get payback continuously over the LIFE OF THE SYSTEM (and most batteries do have a life) and take some personal comfort in being self sufficient as far as electricity goes.

Or you buy "grid connected" and pay your money over time, defer payback to only what you save in initial cost over above AND what you can glean in monthly electric bill - and pay occasionally in "availability cost" when grid is not available. And take comfort in your "investment" in solar, possibly even "virtue signal."

Or - you can do as Owner has done - and NOT buy into either of the two regimes, continue to pay for electricity on an "as needed basis" - and meanwhile try to limit your need by conservation, LED technology, and alternates including hydronic solar. An energy plan which has its own "virtue signal" and one which humans have been following since electricity was invented.

The neighbor has done the "grid tied" option 2. He has a company who installed solar panels on his house, arranged for a "net metering" arrangement for him, maintains his panels (they're insured against fire, damage by hail or trees, or causing deficiencies to his home like roof leaks) and he basically gets free electricity. HOWEVER, he has invested upwards of $40K in his system - which has a "time value of money" cost to him personally. Grid Tie Owner can't invest that money in stocks or bonds and realize a continuous growth AND return on that money - so in effect his electricity is costing him the time value income from that $40K.

You can buy a lot of Grid electricity with the income from that $40K.

AND - to add insult to injury, Grid Tie Owner lost his job and would dearly now like to have that $40K in investment position he could call on if need be. As it is it is invested in those solar panels, and unlike usual capital investments of stocks and bonds, the money is "frozen." Its now equivalent to a Certificate of Deposit (CD) which can NEVER be redeemed.

So its a matter of choice - and preference. Free market being what it is one can be PRETTY ASSURED that each option has a similar cost overall.

Dobbin

I've had people tell me all my life that things are not economically feasible. Like buying a 429 Cobra jet in a Torino during a oil embargo. So I also bought a Saab Sonnet. Drove it across the US twice 73-74 while in the military. I still have the Saab wish I had the Torino.

When I look out my window I see nothing but meadow and Pinus Ponderosas. My system will never be what one would call economically feasible because I can step out of my door, fell a tree and feed my Russian stove which also is not economically feasible(for heat). But all the labor in the system and house was done by US so the cost was not what most would pay by a long shot. It's snowing out right now and I could walk away from this place and come back in a month and it would still be as warm and nice in here as it is right now. I could call up the car or the system if I left my WIFI booster on and check on the house or car if I only carried a cell phone. But then again I have three places, am retired and never worked on so many different things in my life. Like all things in life one needs to do their own due-diligence and like anything in life, economic valve/feasibility is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Old Gray Mare]

I've never been able to understand the people who do a grid-tied solar system. The sole attraction of solar for me is that you can be completely independent of the grid, if you can get enough sun and you have a big enough battery bank to go for a few days of cloudy weather.

Kathleen

I see nothing wrong with having a grid tied solar system to allow excess capacity to be sold via the grid after the batteries are topped off. I also believe it is important to have a kill switch between the home system and the grid so it can be sequestered during black/brown outs.

 

[Millwright]

I've had people tell me all my life that things are not economically feasible. Like buying a 429 Cobra jet in a Torino during a oil embargo. So I also bought a Saab Sonnet. Drove it across the US twice 73-74 while in the military. I still have the Saab wish I had the Torino.

When I look out my window I see nothing but meadow and Pinus Ponderosas. My system will never be what one would call economically feasible because I can step out of my door, fell a tree and feed my Russian stove which also is not economically feasible(for heat). But all the labor in the system and house was done by US so the cost was not what most would pay by a long shot. It's snowing out right now and I could walk away from this place and come back in a month and it would still be as warm and nice in here as it is right now. I could call up the car or the system if I left my WIFI booster on and check on the house or car if I only carried a cell phone. But then again I have three places, am retired and never worked on so many different things in my life. Like all things in life one needs to do their own due-diligence and like anything in life, economic valve/feasibility is in the eye of the beholder.

Most Americans refuse to learn how to do anything themselves.

They would die of starvation in a mountain of food...

without a can opener.

 

[mistaken1]

DISCLAIMER: The following is for educational use only and should not be done at home unless you know what you are doing.

If you have one of the battery-less grid-tied systems you are not totally screwed if the grid goes down, provided you understand how electricity works and have three things:

snip

Loup

Nice! I really appreciate the knowledge you share with the board. Thank you.

 

[Miradus]

How do you deal with the heat? I calculated the amount I would need to power my home and could not make a system work due to the cost. I'm more than a crow flies from the metroplex.

You get used to the heat pretty quickly, but for the worst of it I will sit in front of a battery powered Ryobi fan or go soak my shirt in cold water and put it back on.

We lived without air conditioning in West Texas and here in Hawaii both. You've got the same genetics as the hardy pioneers ... that 70F comfort level is all in your head.

 

[MinnesotaSmith]

You get used to the heat pretty quickly, but for the worst of it I will sit in front of a battery powered Ryobi fan or go soak my shirt in cold water and put it back on.

We lived without air conditioning in West Texas and here in Hawaii both. You've got the same genetics as the hardy pioneers ... that 70F comfort level is all in your head.

Yes, but, we're (whites) not genetically designed for such climates as our optimal environment. Blue eyes IMO = supposed to live somewhere that gets snow every year. Rudyard Kipling is supposed to have said that white men don't belong within 30 degrees of the Equator; I'm inclined to agree.

 

[Miradus]

"Watts/hour" is not a valid unit of power. It's simply "watts". A watt is defined as one joule of energy generated per second of time. The joule is the unit of energy in the metric system, but energy can also be expressed in terms of watt-hours. This is the average power times the number of hours it is generated (or used). Your solar panels probably generate 540 watts of power under full sun, and your average household power use is probably simply 360 watts. How much energy your system generates in a day would then be that 540 watts times the number of hours of sunlight in a day (yes, your system will not generate the full 540 watts all day long because the incident angle of the sunlight changes, but I'm ignoring that for the moment).

Most of the books and literature I see describe it as watts/hour. Watts by itself isn't a very useful statement either since you don't know how long it will run. An instapot draws a lot of watts out of the system but it only runs for 15 minutes.

The panels are rated at 330 watts, which means that if everything was optimal I'd get 660 watts from them. But nothing is ever optimal. I don't have them at the right angle, I don't live at the best latitude, etc. So my peak power input is 540 and it only lasts from about 11am-2pm this time of year. But power starts trickling in as early as 7:30am and continues until around 5pm. It would last longer but I have giant trees in that direction which block the sun.

Even in the pouring rain, there will be a trickle of power coming in at around 140 watts.

To be fair, we don't have a normal home. We have an off-grid cabin. We use Ryobi lanterns and have a battery charger that charges all their batteries up during the day. We use laptops instead of desktops. Most everyone has a small fan that's also battery powered. In the morning it's a ritual to round up all the batteries and put them on the charger before the sun starts coming in.

The batteries were the most difficult thing for me to get a handle on. You don't really have 100% of the battery ... you have 25% of the battery if you want it to last a decent amount of time. A full discharge on the battery destroys its lifespan.

 

[Miradus]

Yes, but, we're (whites) not genetically designed for such climates as our optimal environment. Blue eyes IMO = supposed to live somewhere that gets snow every year. Rudyard Kipling is supposed to have said that white men don't belong within 30 degrees of the Equator; I'm inclined to agree.

Hehehe. Okay, I don't know how to argue that point. My wife is white. My kids are partially-white. Depending upon the perspective of the viewer I'm either "too white" or "too brown".

Here on the Big Island you can buy 3 acres of property up on the mountain for around $14k, but at those elevations it's cool year round. In the 'winter' you can drop as low as 50 degrees and about once every 5 years or so it snows up there. Normal temp ranges up there are from 62-74F.

But we live down in the coastal jungle and it's hotter than hell when the trade winds die off. At night we get a very steady breeze coming in off the ocean that feels great.

 

[Profit of Doom]

I see nothing wrong with having a grid tied solar system to allow excess capacity to be sold via the grid after the batteries are topped off. I also believe it is important to have a kill switch between the home system and the grid so it can be sequestered during black/brown outs.

There must be a prominent and separate disconnect switch to remove the solar system from the grid and all parts of the house. This is for safety, not just grid workers but for fireman at your house. They must be able to remove all power in case of a fire.

 

[Freeholder]

I see nothing wrong with having a grid tied solar system to allow excess capacity to be sold via the grid after the batteries are topped off. I also believe it is important to have a kill switch between the home system and the grid so it can be sequestered during black/brown outs.

The thing is that most of the people who have grid-tied systems don't have batteries for backup. If they did, they wouldn't be in such a fix when the grid goes down.

Kathleen

 

[Miradus]

The thing is that most of the people who have grid-tied systems don't have batteries for backup. If they did, they wouldn't be in such a fix when the grid goes down.

Kathleen

Why would you create such a system? Tax breaks?

So Hawaii offers tax breaks here if your home is at least partially solar. The minimum is 3 panels. Everywhere you look, many of the bigger homes have the requisite 3 panels. But they're not often hooked up to anything. Someone did the math and said, "$1k in cash layout gets me $5k in tax relief forever."

Sort of like how in Texas the minimum 'agricultural unit' to get your property taxed at the cheaper 'ag' rates was 3 cows. So everywhere you'd see 3 cows out in a pasture. No more. No less. Even on properties which didn't even have water for the animals, they'd throw three cows out there in time for the tax man and then let them starve or die of thirst.

 

[swedgemon]

Almost 5 years ago I bought all the components, with an accompanying circuit plan, and installed a fairly large off-grid system myself...27 panels (7.7 KW), 2 Outback 8048 inverters, 6,000 lbs of batteries and a 20 KW diesel genset (I have some 5 & 10 HP loads that the solar system could not handle). The system runs a normal 2,400 sq.ft. home, with A/C, as long as the A/C is used lightly.
The interesting part of the process was dealing with the local (Iowa) power co-op. As mentioned earlier, a grid-tied system would take me down any time the power company had a failure, but the interesting parts were the costs/credits process;
I would have to buy and install the system, the co-op engineer would then inspect/approve the hook-up.
I would get the Federal and State tax credits.
They would credit me any excess power my panels produced, at 3.5 cents/KW-hr.
They would charge me 13.6 cents/KW-hr for any of "their" power that I used.
I would receive NO CASH BACK, only a credit againt next month's bill.
I would continue to pay a $42.00/month "connection fee".
Sooo, I bought the pieces, put it all together (saved $1,500-$2,500 professional installation fee), got a local licensed electrician to review what I had done, disconnected from the grid, called to co-op to come get their smart meter and transformer.
The system works well, altho I do need to run the diesel genset (at 1.2 gal/hr) for an hour or two when we have several days of heavy clouds and I do need to scrape snow off the panels when it snows (I built a walk-way along the bottom of the panels to facilitate snow removal). Dust from the gravel road needs to be rinsed off a few times per summer.
Cost? I could have gotten a really nice diesel pick-up truck...