FARM Horse with cronic hives - help.

[Ansata]

I'm posting this for a friend who has a 5 year old Arabian gelding that has cronic hives. Hoping someone here can give us some advice. She has tried alot of things, but not what I suggested her to try. Maybe she will try some of the advice I get here. She has tried all kinds of different hay. He was on steriods for 10 days and it cleared up, but came back a couple of days after ending it. She gives him Benadril(sp?), it helps some. I told her to get blood tests done for liver, thyroid, etc. And told her to talk to a vet online that uses Chinese herbs, but is expensive. She has the money, but as to today, has not called him.
Anyone ever experience this with a horse?

 

[FarmerJohn]

I've got experience with this in a human (me).

I've done all kinds of food experiments to try to find what might be triggering the condition. At one point I thought it was sulphites in various foods. I set myself up with a challenge test and ate a lot of dried apricots with a glass of sulfite-rich white wine. I found out that doing that will cause other problems but not hives. Now I just take Clarinex of Claritin when I feel an attack coming on. My Dr. gave me an Rx to take up to three in a day. One is normal.

 

[Willow]

The problem with offering advice here is that just about anything has the potential to cause hives. Since the hives appear to be continual unless medicated, I would look to something that is in the horse's environment all the time. Even something that is normally taken for grated in horse management such as a supplement or type of grain. The owner needs to be a detective in order to figure this out. Maybe keep a diary of when they are worse and when they subside without medical intervention.

One thing that isn't always considered. Stress can cause hives and the level of stress that causes this may not be apparent to the caretakers.

Treating the problem certainly makes the horse feel better but solving the problem means identifying the cause and removing it so at this point I wouldn't really add herbs to the environment. That may just complicate the whole thing.

Willow

 

[Dobbin]

Change soap used for bathing?

I'm not fond of Amway soap. VERy drying. And causes chafe on the belly band. Owner now uses Palmolive.

If true hives and an allergic reaction - SOMETHING is setting it off.

The article mentions testing. http://www.ckequinehospital.com/page/165/Equine-Hives

Dobbin

 

[Stardust]

Willow is correct about "stress". This could very well contribute to the condition or even be the cause.

Since the horse is an Arabian I have to ask, is this a show horse? If so does your friend keep him blanketed in the winter? If yes, the blanket or something on/in it could be the problem. Of course many people keep horses blanketed whether show stock or not. But, IF the horse is "show" how about giving baths for shows? Could be in shampoo or conditioner she uses. Or in the "finish spray" they generally get just before going in the arena.

 

[Wise Owl]

Hives are caused by something either the horse is ingesting or something in it's environment like Willow said. I wouldn't do more than the benedryl till she figures out what the cause is or she is just trying to put a bandaide on a serious allergy. Remove the allergin and the hives will go away.

 

[Millwright]

It's an allergy.

Remove every element of the horses environment, one by one to isolate the allergen.

Like everyone said, food, beddings, soaps, blankets, etc.

Allergies can come from nowhere and go away also.

I am allergic to cold....hives, itching, the whole deal.

 

[Ansata]

She has removed everything. The horse is not a show horse, does not get blanketed, does not get bathed this time of year, nor get fly spray on him. He is in an area separate from her other horses. He has shelter. She was refusing to get hay without weeds until I kept saying she should. So she finally got a bale of Timothy w/no weeds, and he just keeps getting worse. I've told her time and again, that she's just treating the syptoms, that she needs to find the reason, probably his own immune system, and what she should get for him.

 

[Willow]

Go back to the beginning. When she got him, did he have issues then? Write down his history. If he didn't have it then, when did they start?

Is there a reason he is separate from the other horses? Horses are herd animals and need each other. Failure to be part of the group could be causing stress.

Like I said...go back to the beginning. Look at everything. Could be the preservatives in some wood in the stall/barn. Could be shavings or bedding.

One thing you could do is try and eliminate stress as the cause by giving him something to calm him. If you try this then do it for a few weeks before eliminating stress as the cause. Can you give him a friend?

Unfortunately, diagnosing this has the potential to be hours of conversation and digging for facts. Even then, missing one little detail could be the key.

Willow

 

[Ansata]

Go back to the beginning. When she got him, did he have issues then? Write down his history. If he didn't have it then, when did they start?

Is there a reason he is separate from the other horses? Horses are herd animals and need each other. Failure to be part of the group could be causing stress.

Like I said...go back to the beginning. Look at everything. Could be the preservatives in some wood in the stall/barn. Could be shavings or bedding.

One thing you could do is try and eliminate stress as the cause by giving him something to calm him. If you try this then do it for a few weeks before eliminating stress as the cause. Can you give him a friend?

Willow

He has always been with the other horses. Since he got a bad cut in September - which the meds for that could have started this, but should be over by now. Anyway he was separated to let the cut heal, and now the hives, separate to limit stress from other horses picking on him. He can still see them, they are just a few feet apart.

Yes, he had hives before this episode. I told her not to vaccinate, but she did, and that could be another starter. She didn't want to call the vet back before these things, when he had other short lived hives. They came and went a couple of times that I have known her.

The vets in this little town have limited knowledge. I asked her to call a much better vet hospital in Vegas, and get blood tests done. She just doesn't like to do what I suggest.

He doesn't have bedding, just dirt and gravel in his area.

Thank you everyone so far. Yes, this will be a long haul to fix.

 

[Loon]

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10505/hives-in-horses-symptoms-and-treatment

 

[bbbuddy]

Willow and Millwright are spot on, the tiniest thing could be the problem, it's going to take meticulous detective work on her part, and she doesn't sound like she has the temperament for it...if changing his food was so difficult!

Papering over the problem by medicating will never solve it, only willingness to change everything in his environment until you have the answer will solve it...
Oh by the way, wash his brushes, halter, saddle blankets, everything. Saddle soap his bridle and saddle.
Could be residue from a fly spray or soap...

Watch out for black walnut, it's deadly to horses. What kind of wood is the shelter made of?

 

[Willow]

Are you saying he had hives before he was separated from the other horses?

Willow

 

[Stardust]

Ok. Let me see if this is right. As Willow asks, did he have hives BEFORE being separated from the other horses?

IF the answer is no....you say he's separated from but can still SEE them? How far apart are they? Maybe he's just nervous over wanting to be closer to them. Nerves.

We could go on and on here but the best bet is the "better" vet and blood tests.

 

[Hansa44]

I got giant hives for about 20 years till I found out refined sugar was causing them. Actually, in my studies about the hives it turned out to be hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). No more crappy diet (refined sugars and flours. no more hives.)

The only medicine that would help me was periactin Don't know if it can be given to horses.

 

[Josie]

Let me preface this by saying that I know nothing about horses. But a thought just occurred to me. Has this hive thing been going on all along or has it started with a change in temp? Can horses get Cold Urticaria (hives from cold temps) like humans?

If it's no to all of the above, then never mind.

 

[Flashyzipp]

What kind of grain is he eating? Is it from a farm coop or bagged grain? Has she tried alfalfa hay? That has always been the best in my opinion. What kind of shavings in his stall? Is his stall regularly cleaned? Is he regularly wormed? What part of the country does he live in?

 

[bbbuddy]

He has always been with the other horses. Since he got a bad cut in September - which the meds for that could have started this, but should be over by now. Anyway he was separated to let the cut heal, and now the hives, separate to limit stress from other horses picking on him. He can still see them, they are just a few feet apart.

Yes, he had hives before this episode. I told her not to vaccinate, but she did, and that could be another starter. She didn't want to call the vet back before these things, when he had other short lived hives. They came and went a couple of times that I have known her.

The vets in this little town have limited knowledge. I asked her to call a much better vet hospital in Vegas, and get blood tests done. She just doesn't like to do what I suggest.

He doesn't have bedding, just dirt and gravel in his area.

Thank you everyone so far. Yes, this will be a long haulp to fix.

Ok, he's sensitive...any cut from September should be well healed by now...he has MORE stress being separated from his herd than he would EVER have from "being picked on" which is normal in herd life...so I would start by putting him back in with his herd, then see if the hives go away.
Your friend has not kept track of changes in his environment, like new fly spray, new weeds in the area brought in by the hay, etc, so it's probable that he will continue to get hives unless she gets a lot more serious about chronicling his daily environment.

 

[bbbuddy]

Another thing, are the other horses owned by other people ? Could be the reason he "occasionally"gets hives is something one of the other riders/owners use on or around their horses...which could be a nightmare to sort out.

But in any case, he's far better off in with his herd if at all possible. If he's used to a herd then separating him is detrimental to his well being.

 

[Ansata]

Yes, he had hives before separting. He has to be fed differently than her other 2 horses, another reason he is separated, so she can try to find out if one of the hays are causing it. He does not get grain, just hay. She has had him on every kind of hay, most with weeds. She just now bought a bale w/o weeds. He can't be with the other two and have access to their hay. We are in S. Nevada. He can see the other horses, is not nervous wanting to get back to them. They're just a few feet away.

She does know about tack/brushes, etc.

He did have hives before it got cold. When I saw him last - a couple of weeks ago - he was in his shelter eating, and then she brought him out for me to look at. The hives were barely noticable when I looked at him in the shelter. While he stood in the sun, I remarked that the hives have come back out. She then looked and said, yes it does look like it, and they preceeded to get more and more, and bigger.

Thank you all. Very good advice here.

She just found someone who had a mare with the same thing, and is now going to do some herbs for liver and kidney - was what this woman used. I don't know their name yet. This person said she had to take her off all hay because of the Round-Up they use. And that she has to keep her on cubes grown right here near our town. Of course the cubes have binder in them

He is regularly wormed.

I read about this med periactin and sent her the article I found. We would have to ask a good vet if it can be used on horses.

 

[duchess47]

I had a mare that I purchased with hives. After several weeks of weekly shampoos with medicated shampoo they disappeared and never returned. My only experience with hives.

 

[WalknTrot]

Life-long horse owner here.

I've never had to deal with hives, but if it was my horse, I'd return him as quickly as possible to the situation he was in before it happened. As natural as possible. Kick him out to pasture with the other horses - clean grass hay. He sounds stressed, and being alone is stressful. I'd probably also hit him with Ivermectin Gold wormer (or generic equivalent) just to eliminate the possibility of parasites.

Give him some consistent, regular work to do, too.

BTW, nobody uses Roundup on hay fields. It KILLS grass/clover/alfalfa.

 

[bbbuddy]

Yes, he had hives before separting. He has to be fed differently than her other 2 horses, another reason he is separated, so she can try to find out if one of the hays are causing it. He does not get grain, just hay. She has had him on every kind of hay, most with weeds. She just now bought a bale w/o weeds. He can't be with the other two and have access to their hay. We are in S. Nevada. He can see the other horses, is not nervous wanting to get back to them. They're just a few feet away.

She does know about tack/brushes, etc.

He did have hives before it got cold. When I saw him last - a couple of weeks ago - he was in his shelter eating, and then she brought him out for me to look at. The hives were barely noticable when I looked at him in the shelter. While he stood in the sun, I remarked that the hives have come back out. She then looked and said, yes it does look like it, and they preceeded to get more and more, and bigger.

Thank you all. Very good advice here.

She just found someone who had a mare with the same thing, and is now going to do some herbs for liver and kidney - was what this woman used. I don't know their name yet. This person said she had to take her off all hay because of the Round-Up they use. And that she has to keep her on cubes grown right here near our town. Of course the cubes have binder in them

He is regularly wormed.

I read about this med periactin and sent her the article I found. We would have to ask a good vet if it can be used on horses.

What you just described is photosensitivity, and can indicate liver problems....

"There are two conditions that cause a horse's skin to be abnormally sensitive to sunlight (photosensitive). Primary photosensitivity occurs when a horse is exposed to a chemical that causes the skin to be more sensitive to UV light. This can occur from contact with chemicals (fly sprays, coat conditioners, etc.) or drugs (certain antibiotics and tranquilizers). Ingestion of certain plants can also cause photosensitivity. Clover, St. John's Wort, Rye, and other weeds and grasses are digested by the horse to produce substances that reach the skin and cause sensitivity to sunlight."

Read up on photosensitivity...

 

[Ansata]

I sent her the photosensitivity and Round Up statements from your posts.

Will report back what I hear from her today.

Thanks again ~

 

[Flashyzipp]

Life-long horse owner here.

I've never had to deal with hives, but if it was my horse, I'd return him as quickly as possible to the situation he was in before it happened. As natural as possible. Kick him out to pasture with the other horses - clean grass hay. He sounds stressed, and being alone is stressful. I'd probably also hit him with Ivermectin Gold wormer (or generic equivalent) just to eliminate the possibility of parasites.

Give him some consistent, regular work to do, too.

BTW, nobody uses Roundup on hay fields. It KILLS grass/clover/alfalfa.

I have also owned horses all of my life and would do this. Parasites can cause weird things to occur. Make sure he is wormed and turn him back out with his friends.

 

[Old Gray Mare]

Did the problem start when he was moved to their facility? Is the barn new? Is there new paint, wood preservative or sealant or other VOCs? Maybe it is not the hay or shampoo. Could it be the barn or the chemicals used in it? Are any insecticides/pesticides used in the barn? Any herbicides used on weeds around the barn? Are there any chemical plants, farms or companies using chemicals up wind? Reaching here. Do not like to hear of a horse suffering.

 

[WalknTrot]

I had a bald-faced super thin-coated Appy saddle mare that was sun-sensitive. Had to be careful to keep her off the clover. (See the link on clover-poisoning). But she never got hives...just burned and peeled like crazy. That's why I mentioned putting him on grass hay.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/14562/alsike-clover-poisoning

Might not be a bad idea to throw a sheet on him to see if it helps. I take it you are in like - Nevada? You mentioned Vegas. The sun bouncing off snow, and the thin air in the wintertime can cause pretty strong "rays" . Worth a shot.

 

[Greenspode]

Usually hives are caused by an allergic reaction to something, but the problem is often compounded by a Lymphatic System failure, which can have a number dermetological ramifications.

The Lymphatic system is crucial to removing cell toxins. The system is dependant on the horses movement, and muscular contraction, to flow properly. Sounds like this horse is getting plenty of movement living in an outdoor situation.

If there is a history of hives, it is possible that the lymphatic system in the cutaneous and subcutaneous tissue is damaged. Regular, intensive grooming can often help the condition, as the grooming process helps greatly to move the lymphatic fluid on through the system. Avoiding extreme temperature changes can also help improve lymphatic system function. Both extreme heat and extreme cold can alter flow of lymphatic fluid.

I have had success dealing with hives where the cause was unknown, just by intensive, regular grooming and trying to maintain horeses environmental temp exposure as consistantly as possible, by avoiding extreme sun heat (time of day turnout, etc.) and extreme cold (blankets or sheets as needed).

Good luck!

p.s. bbuddy...black walnut is not as toxic to horses as people think! The danger is when the inner wood is exposed to the horses hooves, such as when black walnut ends up in the bedding. This can cause a rapid and extreme bout of laminitis that can be difficult to control, often resulting in founder. Other than that exposure, horses can live quite harmoniously with black walnut trees! My horses have shared turnout space with black walnut trees for 40 years! Just an fyi!

 

[Ansata]

Thanks guys, I am forwarding all this info to my friend.
Yes, we are in So. Nevada, close to Vegas. No snow here, only on MT. Charleston, and not much there either.

 

[Ansata]

Just letting those who are interested know - she has put the horse back in with the other two. He has brighter eyes, hives a bit less now. She feeds him separately though. She hasn't done anything else that I know of.