…… Home electrical advice needed - bathroom exhaust fan

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Slydersan

Veteran Member
I have an electrical issue that is driving me nuts. So any advice (hopefully correct advice LOL) would be appreciated. Been living in my house for over 15 years. House was built in the 40's but was heavily renovated in probably the mid-80's. (Important because house originally had no overhead lights, renovation installed some, including this fan/light, but with modern copper wiring, not the weird aluminum stuff). Right before Christmas I go into my bathroom and flip the switch for my exhaust fan/light and nothing happens - no light, no fan. Replaced the bulb just in case that would matter, nothing. Checked the circuit breaker - still good and everything else on the circuit is still fine. OK, fan is over 15 years old maybe it just died. It is just one of those typical Broan 8 1/2" square ones - nothing fancy. If you are familiar with those fans, inside the enclosure are 2 little outlets, one for the fan and one for the light. Mine is wired for both to be controlled by 1 switch.

I bought and replaced the whole fan/light, (looks literally exactly same as the old one) still doesn't work. I check to make sure it is getting power at the light itself - yes. hmmm maybe the wall switch is bad. So I had one on hand, replaced it. Still nothing. So I thought maybe I got a lemon from Home Depot. So I plugged in both the new fan part and the new light part into a different outlet. They both work fine! So on a whim I plugged the OLD fan and light into a different socket - BOTH work.

I find it hard to believe that the short (under 5') wire run from switch to fan could somehow go bad. But that's about the only thing I can think of. No mice/rodent or other problems that I am aware of that would cause a short in the wire. The only possible thing is that the wire runs next to my "chimney" - the cinderblock exhaust avenue for my gas furnace - not an actual fireplace chimney. It gets warm but not hot by any stretch. So what could possibly be wrong? Any ideas would be much appreciated.
 
S

Slydersan

Veteran Member
Yep have a couple different testers. I used the "it senses power on a wire" type and the black/hot wire was hot and the white/neutral wire was not, in both positions of the switch. I did not test for continuity. That was gonna be what I checked next, before I replacing the wire itself.
 
Quiet Man

Quiet Man

Nothing unreal exists
Slydersan said:
So I plugged in both the new fan part and the new light part into a different outlet. They both work fine! So on a whim I plugged the OLD fan and light into a different socket - BOTH work.
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You've ruled-out problems with the individual fan and light parts of the old fixture.

I will guess that the overall fan/light fixture is either not getting power, or that it is getting power and there is a break between where the line comes into it and where it feeds the 2 little outlets.

As others have said, check power at each point starting where you know that it is good. Check power coming into the switch; check power going out of the switch; check power coming into the fixture; check power routing through the fixture; check power at each of the 2 sockets. Somewhere there is break there. Use one of those testers that tests line, neutral and ground.

As you have the same problem with the new fixture, the problem seems to be that the fixture itself is not getting power.
 
Quiet Man

Quiet Man

Nothing unreal exists
Slydersan said:
Yep have a couple different testers. I used the "it senses power on a wire" type and the black/hot wire was hot and the white/neutral wire was not, in both positions of the switch. I did not test for continuity. That was gonna be what I checked next, before I replacing the wire itself.
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It could be that there is a problem with the light switch itself, or that the neutral to the fixture is not properly connected where it meets the switch (broken wire, etc.).
 
Repairman-Jack

Repairman-Jack

Veteran Member
Slydersan said:
I check to make sure it is getting power at the light itself - yes. hmmm maybe the wall switch is bad. So I had one on hand, replaced it. Still nothing. So I thought maybe I got a lemon from Home Depot. So I plugged in both the new fan part and the new light part into a different outlet. They both work fine! So on a whim I plugged the OLD fan and light into a different socket - BOTH work.
Click to expand...

Disclaimer: Not an electrician ;)


What did you use to check power? Multimeter? If so is there 120VAC at the light/fan?

How many and what color wires are in the switchbox? Wondering since you mentioned older home if they used "old school" switch loop vs updated method to get switched power to the light/fan.
 
BassMan

BassMan

Veteran Member
Slydersan said:
Yep have a couple different testers. I used the "it senses power on a wire" type and the black/hot wire was hot and the white/neutral wire was not, in both positions of the switch. I did not test for continuity. That was gonna be what I checked next, before I replacing the wire itself.
Click to expand...
Dumb question: Shouldn't you detect power on neutral as well when the power (switch) is on?
 
Repairman-Jack

Repairman-Jack

Veteran Member
BassMan said:
Dumb question: Shouldn't you detect power on neutral as well when the power (switch) is on?
Click to expand...
Again not an electrician or expert on electrical theory (just a DIYer/Weekend warrior) but if there was voltage on neutral this would create a short condition....hmm wait let me clarify my statement if hot and neutral make a direct connection they short.

When there is a load on a "standard" circuit there isn't significant voltage on the neutral leg
 
S

Slydersan

Veteran Member
Meemur said:
When you get time, please update. Was it a bad wire?
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I'm at work right now. So I won't be able to check anything until this evening. But yes I will update as I go...and rip my hair out. LOL

BassMan said:
Dumb question: Shouldn't you detect power on neutral as well when the power (switch) is on?
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I'm an amateur and wasn't sure. That's why I'm asking for help. ;)

I appreciate the responses. No GFCI circuit.

And it was fine as it was for 15+ yrs, so I don't think a voltage or even wiring issue would all of a sudden appear. But I'll check all of that tonight.
 
Outofmydepth

Outofmydepth

Just don't
I had to replace a very old Broan fan/light this year. I finally found an inexpensive replacement assembly through Menards after sifting through many web search results with no reasonably priced options. Fortunately, I had no underlying electrical problem.
 
Repairman-Jack

Repairman-Jack

Veteran Member
Slydersan said:
I'm at work right now. So I won't be able to check anything until this evening. But yes I will update as I go...and rip my hair out. LOL


I'm an amateur and wasn't sure. That's why I'm asking for help. ;)

I appreciate the responses. No GFCI circuit.

And it was fine as it was for 15+ yrs, so I don't think a voltage or even wiring issue would all of a sudden appear. But I'll check all of that tonight.
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Just thinking out loud, not saying this is the problem......was the 80's reno electrical work done by a licensed electrician? Wondering if they maybe have a non code compliant junction box buried in a wall...or maybe there is one accessible in the attic. If there is a bad pigtail/wire nut job somewhere you have lost a hot due to arcing or as Millwright mentioned you could have lost neutral somewhere.


My three goto electrical testers:
 

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BassMan

BassMan

Veteran Member
Millwright said:
Said many people whose house burned down.
Click to expand...

One thing to watch for is old circuits where you draw a lot of power, such as a space-heater. Oxidation(rust), dirt or a loose wire causes extra heat when you draw a lot of power. Had my mother-in-law "smoke" a faulty outlet years ago, with space-heater on full (loose connection at outlet).
 
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BassMan

BassMan

Veteran Member
BassMan said:
Dumb question: Shouldn't you detect power on neutral as well when the power (switch) is on?
Click to expand...
Didn't fully understand the answer, but did find an electrician forum talking about this. In general, sounds like non-contact ("touch") tester would only see voltage on the hot.

I do know that with a multi-wire circuit with shared neutral (yuck), you can get voltage on the neutral, but that is probably N/A here.
 
Millwright

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
BassMan said:
One thing to watch for is old circuits where you draw a lot of power, such as a space-heater. Oxidation(rust), dirt or a loose wire causes extra heat when you draw a lot of power. Had my mother-in-law "smoke" a faulty outlet years ago, with space-heater on full (loose connection at outlet).
Click to expand...

I put cheep outlets in the shop when I first wired it.

Bulk packs from big box.

They are starting to not grab the blades on plugs...resistance. Resistance makes heat, heat makes oxidation, oxidation makes more resistance. In time you get meltage.

I keep an eye out for the good plugs in big box clearance section. They are normally $5ish instead of 99 cents.

It don't matter if they are Hello Kitty pink.
 
Macgyver

Macgyver

Has No Life - Lives on TB
BassMan said:
Dumb question: Shouldn't you detect power on neutral as well when the power (switch) is on?
Click to expand...
No. Neutral doesn't go through the actual switch at all. You should be able to see continuity between the neutral and ground though.

Edit to add.
If the light/fan was running then you could see voltage if checked Neutral to ground.
You could also measure current on it.
 
WFK

WFK

Senior Something
I offer some terminology:
By National Electric Code secondary circuits of high voltage transformers have to be GROUNDED if their voltage exceeds
150V. That establishes a GROUND. This Ground (to earth) connection will be repeated in your main distribution panel.
That would be one end of the current carrying winding feeding a single phase (120V US).
If the single winding is used to generate 240V, it will be grounded in its center, providing 120V on each end, and 240V between ends. Each of these ends are HOT. The enter is RETURN for single phase also called NEUTRAL.
The NEUTRAL carries the return current from all 120-V loads, but is carries no current with only 240V loads.
120-V loads are connected HOT to NEUTRAL. (and the neutral carries the return currents.)
240-V loads are connected HOT to HOT. (and the neutral is not involved at all.)

The GROUND wire is inherently NOT CURRENT- carrying, unless there is a fault or leak between HOT and GROUND.
In circuits protected by a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) such current is measured and opens the Breaker.

For loads, the HOT wires have switches, the NEUTRAL normally not, and the GROUND MUST must never be switched.)

You can see where you should see "voltage" with a tester that is grounded or uses your body as such.
Slydersan said:
Yep have a couple different testers. I used the "it senses power on a wire" type and the black/hot wire was hot and the white/neutral wire was not, in both positions of the switch. I did not test for continuity. That was gonna be what I checked next, before I replacing the wire itself.So the above makes
Click to expand...
Since the circuit does not work, you have an OPEN (don't ponder shorts.)
The white wire should not be "live", ever, with a working circuit. But it could be, if the return (neutral) is open.
(See Macgyver's note above.)
You could have that condition, BUT "black/hot wire was hot in both positions of the switch" does not make sense.

I think the problem is in the old box that is still in the ceiling, right?
 
K

Kennori

Contributing Member
I had the same problem with an outside outlet for Christmas decorations and hedge trimmers. It blew and nothing I did helped. I hired an electrician and he replaced the outlet with a covered fault protector device. He confided to me that whoever had installed this outlet had tapped a bathroom box and it was protected by the GFIC in the bathroom. All this time I just had to reset the bathroom circuit to restore my outside power.
 
Meemur

Meemur

Voice on the Prairie / FJB!
dawgofwar10 said:
Sometimes it pays to get an electrician, One of the few things I wont do as a homeowner is electricty. One you can kill yourself or burn the house down.
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I will hire a licensed pro if it's something to do with the main box, but I change out existing bathroom fans and ceiling fans, generally with the same model, so I'm just connecting wires. It can cost $80+ to have someone here do that work and $200+ to install a new one!

I don't have that sort of money.

Added: I will consult with a pro about installing a new outside garage light because there isn't a wired one there now. That's the sort of project that could burn down the garage if not done correctly. I've got a battery-powered light there now, which is not going to harm anything.
 
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dawgofwar10

dawgofwar10

Veteran Member
Been there done that with GFI i was a having a problem with, got a new one and installed it exactly as it was installed before. After pulling my hair out I hired an electrician and I had the wires flipped, though I had it wired excatly like the previous GFI. He felt sorry for me and charged $50.00 for 5 minutes of work.
 
BassMan

BassMan

Veteran Member
Meemur said:
I will hire a licensed pro if it's something to do with the main box, but I change out existing bathroom fans and ceiling fans, generally with the same model, so I'm just connecting wires. It can cost $80+ to have someone here do that work and $200+ to install a new one!

I don't have that sort of money.

Added: I will consult with a pro about installing a new outside garage light because there isn't a wired one there now. That's the sort of project that could burn down the garage if not done correctly. I've got a battery-powered light there now, which is not going to harm anything.
Click to expand...

Same here, but I learned to watch for multi-wire branch circuits: Multiwire Branch Circuit - Electrical 101

Replaced outlets, switches and lights for years before discovering that evil beast.
 
mistaken1

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
A multi-meter with leads, check the receptacle in the fan unit. Should see 110 to 120 volts blade to blade (insert leads into the receptacle) when switch is on.
One blade to ground wire should see 110 to 120 volts when switch is on.

When switch is off should see no voltage blade to blade (in the receptacle in the fan) or either blade to ground.

If you have voltage from one blade to ground but not from blade to blade then the grounded conductor (neutral or typically the white wire) is open somewhere.

If you have voltage from blade to blade but not from blade to ground then the grounding conductor (typically bare or green wire) is open somewhere.

There are some good diagrams here. You need to determine if the feed (hot) goes to the fan first or to the switch first.

Light Switch Wiring Diagrams - Do-it-yourself-help.com

Clear, easy-to-read diagrams for household electrical light switches with wiring instructions.
www.do-it-yourself-help.com
 
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M

mattbert

Veteran Member
Kennori said:
I had the same problem with an outside outlet for Christmas decorations and hedge trimmers. It blew and nothing I did helped. I hired an electrician and he replaced the outlet with a covered fault protector device. He confided to me that whoever had installed this outlet had tapped a bathroom box and it was protected by the GFIC in the bathroom. All this time I just had to reset the bathroom circuit to restore my outside power.
Click to expand...
I have something similar-- house build in 1996. I was told by an electrician at one point that this was done because at one time GFCI plugs were very expensive so electricians would tie a number of outlets into one GFCI circuit to avoid problems. At least at that time it was apparently legal but makes for a heck of a troubleshooting situation at times.

mattbert
 
P

Profit of Doom

Dismember
dawgofwar10 said:
Been there done that with GFI i was a having a problem with, got a new one and installed it exactly as it was installed before. After pulling my hair out I hired an electrician and I had the wires flipped, though I had it wired excatly like the previous GFI. He felt sorry for me and charged $50.00 for 5 minutes of work.
Click to expand...
There’s LOAD and LINE sides. Details matter.
 
tech

tech

Veteran Member
Millwright said:
Check all your neutrals, especially in the switch box.

A lot of mystery problems with electricals end up being funky neutrals.... or grounds in DC.
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Also remember to check the neutral to that circuit in the main breaker box. I have seen those work loose over time (still not sure how, but suspect heating) and create unusual problems.
An appropriate torque wrench is your friend!
 
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