FOOD Help-Wierd Chocolate Situation Going On

[davidinthewilderness]

This will be difficult to describe. Over a year we moved to the top of a mountain. I am an old from scratch baker and cook. I have been cooking since I was knee high to a grasshopper and never had this consistent situation. When I make something with chocolate, any kind of chocolate (bar, cocoa, shaved), any recipe, the same thing happens. I set the temperature in the oven for what the directions call for (some of these recipes I have used for years). Then I make the whatever: pie, cake, muffins. Next thing I smell is smoke and look in the oven and the whatever looks like a rolling, boiling, liquid mess, that is definitely burnt and never does act normal or make the product I am trying to make. I ensure that the recipe looks normal when I put it in the oven, like muffin dough looks like muffin dough and cake dough looks like cake dough and so forth.

Here is what I have tried: changing the flour, changing the sugar, changing the type of chocolate, changing to baking soda, changing to baking powder, changing the season I make it, and changing the oven temperature. The strange thing is that this only happens when I use chocolate. I can make anything else and it turns out perfect. The reason I am writing this is that I just made a special cake for my sister's recent visit. I totally forgot about the problem, threw in the chocolate, and I was brought back to a sudden reality check when I smelled the smoke.

The only other thing that I have had difficulty making since we came to the mountain are lotions which separate no matter what recipe (even long time ones) or process.

Does anyone have any ideas? It is just so strange. Altitude shouldn't make a difference as long as one compensates for it, so I am stumped.

Any help or ideas would be appreciated. The old adage is two: many heads are better than one in problem solving.

Thanks ahead of time!
Celeste

 

[FarOut]

Water boils at a lower temperature at higher altitudes, so more will evaporate during cooking. Have you examined the "messes" after they cooled? I'd bet too much of the water boiled off and they were dried out. In that case the fats/oils in chocolate would boil and then burn at a lower temperature than the wheat flour. Possible remedy: use a lot more water in the mixture, though you'd have to experiment to find out how much is needed. It might not work; if chocolate also boils at a lower temperature you may be chocolate-cake deprived as long as you're up there.

No idea why lotions separate.

 

[Hansa44]

I lived at 5200' for 4 yrs. and never had a problem.

Maybe it's being suggested to you to stay away from chocolate. If this is the only thing you're having a problem with it might be an interesting idea to look at it from another direction.

 

[Chocolatier]

You'll need to reduce the temp to compensate for the lower air pressure of altitude. I've found a water bath very helpful with keeping temps within range. These should help.

http://www.highaltitudebaking.com/

http://www.ochef.com/327.htm

 

[Chocolatier]

I lived at 5200' for 4 yrs. and never had a problem.

Maybe it's being suggested to you to stay away from chocolate. If this is the only thing you're having a problem with it might be an interesting idea to look at it from another direction.

It could be the antichrist too...

 

[vessie]

Celeste, I think it's the altitude your at.

I had the same thing going on since I moved up past North Bend, Wa. up near Snoqualmie Pass. Didn't have a clue as to what was going on til this last summer while I was at my friend Jojo's house over at Sunnybank on Lake Chelan. She said that when she uses the oven for anything at the lake, she has to bump the temp up by I think she said, ten degrees because they're higher over there.

She said that being that I'm at 700 ft. above sea level that I should bump my cooking temp by 5 degrees and I've had no problem since then. And I always cook with the oven on convection. V

 

[Wise Owl]

We are at 1558 ft and I have to LOWER the temp in my oven to get good results but I think it's the oven is just hotter than the thermostat says it is.....

But if the recipe calls for 375 I set it at 350. Otherwise it cooks too fast and burns everything. Maybe it is the altitude up here doing it. I know cake mixes and things say to change the temps if you are up higher in alt...

FWIW....

 

[Millwright]

I would start with an oven rated thermometer and cross-check the actual temp against the dial or display.

If it is a big oven, put a couple of firebricks in to increase the thermal mass, sometimes this helps for ovens that cycle strange. Give it a longer warm-up time if you do.

 

[hammerhead]

I'm more or less a mile above sea level, and your cooking/baking needs to change to accommodate that. The URLs higher in the thread are good ones.

 

[D_el]

Here's a simple "forinstance".
On a weekend trip to Leadville, Colorado we stopped to fix lunch. We boiled water for hot chocolate and sampled the drink gingerly, suspecting to have burned lips and mouth so soon after boiling the drink mix.
SURPRISE !
The hot chocolate was just slightly warm even immediately from the boiling container. Lesson of altitude and boiling temps: Water boils at a far lesser temperature at 10,000 plus feet.
You obviously need to adjust your cooking time and use a lid on the pot to control evaporation.

 

[TXKajun]

Celeste, I suspect you got a very bad batch of chocolate. Out of the goodness of my heart, tell ya what I'll do. You box up and send me ALLLL you chocolate and I'll perform both quantitative and qualitative tests on it and let you know which parts were bad. Of course, the tests will take up all of the chocolate, so I won't be able to return any of it.

Seriously tho, I suspect it's altitude related. Have you done any Google-fu on altitude and chocolate?

Good luck.

Kajun

 

[lala]

It could be the antichrist too...

For some reason this really cracked me up

 

[oops]

nc if this could be part of the problem...but if it's newer choc...it may have lil to no cocoa butter in it...nc how that would affect the baking though...as I'm still using my older choc stuffs...

 

[willowlady]

nc if this could be part of the problem...but if it's newer choc...it may have lil to no cocoa butter in it...nc how that would affect the baking though...as I'm still using my older choc stuffs...

You've got to be kidding me! Now they've gone and messed with chocolate? How the heck is any recipe supposed to work right if they do something like that?

 

[davidinthewilderness]

Water boils at a lower temperature at higher altitudes, so more will evaporate during cooking. Have you examined the "messes" after they cooled? I'd bet too much of the water boiled off and they were dried out. In that case the fats/oils in chocolate would boil and then burn at a lower temperature than the wheat flour. Possible remedy: use a lot more water in the mixture, though you'd have to experiment to find out how much is needed. It might not work; if chocolate also boils at a lower temperature you may be chocolate-cake deprived as long as you're up there.

/QUOTE]

Thank you for your idea. I have examined the mess after cooking. It looks like boiled fudge that never was cooked to the proper stage. I just find it strange that ever other baked good turns out perfect...just chocolate is the mess maker disaster. I will try the water and see if it works, could be, though one would think if that was the case all baked goods would react the same.

Thank you so much,
Celeste

 

[davidinthewilderness]

nc if this could be part of the problem...but if it's newer choc...it may have lil to no cocoa butter in it...nc how that would affect the baking though...as I'm still using my older choc stuffs...

Some is pure old chocolate and some new. I have tried the gambit trying to solve the mystery.

Celeste

 

[davidinthewilderness]

Celeste, I suspect you got a very bad batch of chocolate. Out of the goodness of my heart, tell ya what I'll do. You box up and send me ALLLL you chocolate and I'll perform both quantitative and qualitative tests on it and let you know which parts were bad. Of course, the tests will take up all of the chocolate, so I won't be able to return any of it.

Seriously tho, I suspect it's altitude related. Have you done any Google-fu on altitude and chocolate?

Good luck.

Kajun

Thanks for the offer of being our official taste tester but the chocolate stays on the mt. We have to have some treats, especially when one is virtually snowed in (thought spring was in the air and then we got dumped on).

Sigh...I guess I will scratch chocolate recipes and it it raw, cocoa works up here thank heaven!

Celeste

 

[davidinthewilderness]

You've got to be kidding me! Now they've gone and messed with chocolate? How the heck is any recipe supposed to work right if they do something like that?

I am sure they have with the newer stuff but we have old too :-/

Celeste

 

[davidinthewilderness]

I lived at 5200' for 4 yrs. and never had a problem.

Maybe it's being suggested to you to stay away from chocolate. If this is the only thing you're having a problem with it might be an interesting idea to look at it from another direction.

Ya know that is a sad idea. There are so many things scratched off the list due to contamination (GMO etc..) or unavailability. I think of that part in the Jericho series where they are sitting around the table eating mashed potatoes but thinking it is this or that (their favorite foods). We are entering days where you just wont be able to secure some food items. We are there and the scratching off the list continues. The one comfort is that I can make just about anything from scratch.

Life without chocolate....not a chance. After I run through these ideas which I so appreciate and hopefully will work but if they don't I can eat chocolate plain or in cocoa. It is just when I do a dumb thing like forgetting their is chocolate in a recipe and making it and wasting all those supplies...gets my goat.

Celeste

 

[davidinthewilderness]

For some reason this really cracked me up

I definitely do not think it is the antichrist until we can't buy or sell chocolate.

Celeste

 

[coloradohermit]

We're at 8,500' and baking does take some adjustments. The standard adjustments I've seen in things involving chocolate, like brownies, are to take out a heaping TBS of the sugar, add a heaping TBS of flour and add about 5-10 minutes to the baking time. There's also something about using shiny vs dark pans, but I can't remember that one for sure. Try switching to dark baking pans. The last thing I've discovered, but haven't read anywhere is that for some recipes I need to double the salt called for in order for it to taste right.

 

[davidinthewilderness]

I am copying this whole thread and putting it in my recipe file.

Thank you for all the suggestions. I do have one pan dark and one pan shiny and both turned out the same :-/

I will try the flour & sugar.

Thanks!
Celeste

 

[Hansa44]

For some reason this really cracked me up

Me too! We'll use any excuse to not give something up! I have a million of them. LOL

 

[Hansa44]

Ya know that is a sad idea. There are so many things scratched off the list due to contamination (GMO etc..) or unavailability. I think of that part in the Jericho series where they are sitting around the table eating mashed potatoes but thinking it is this or that (their favorite foods). We are entering days where you just wont be able to secure some food items. We are there and the scratching off the list continues. The one comfort is that I can make just about anything from scratch.

Life without chocolate....not a chance. After I run through these ideas which I so appreciate and hopefully will work but if they don't I can eat chocolate plain or in cocoa. It is just when I do a dumb thing like forgetting their is chocolate in a recipe and making it and wasting all those supplies...gets my goat.

Celeste

Celeste.....My grandfather had terrible time with breathing as he got older and the doctors thought it was asthma. But he discovered the only time these attacks would happen is after he ate chocolate.

If he left it alone, he was fine. But he never did give it up completely. He had developed an allergy to it.

 

[LoupGarou]

This will be difficult to describe. Over a year we moved to the top of a mountain.
...

Define "top of a mountain" a bit more, like in a close altitude approximation. Even altitudes of 3000 feet in some states can cause problems.

I would second (third, fourth...) the call for using a calibrated thermometer in the oven to make sure that the thermostat is not lying to you. I would also watch that thermostat over a 10-15 minute period AFTER the oven gets "up to temp" to see if it stays at that temperature, or if it starts to wander around.

...
The only other thing that I have had difficulty making since we came to the mountain are lotions which separate no matter what recipe (even long time ones) or process.
...

Are you using glycerine, and if so, how much are you using in the lotion?

Glycerine, oils and water, all act differently at higher altitudes.

I could tell you all sorts of stories about things going bad when I was down in New Mexico, including 2 liter bottles and bags of potato chips exploding on the way up the mountain from a shopping trip on the valley floor.

Loup

 

[davidinthewilderness]

Celeste.....My grandfather had terrible time with breathing as he got older and the doctors thought it was asthma. But he discovered the only time these attacks would happen is after he ate chocolate.

If he left it alone, he was fine. But he never did give it up completely. He had developed an allergy to it.

Could have been the chocolate or it could be that it was chocolate processed in a plant that also did nuts and he had a nut allergy. (worked for an allergist so we encountered this all the time).


Celeste

 

[davidinthewilderness]

Define "top of a mountain" a bit more, like in a close altitude approximation. Even altitudes of 3000 feet in some states can cause problems.

6000 feet

I would second (third, fourth...) the call for using a calibrated thermometer in the oven to make sure that the thermostat is not lying to you. I would also watch that thermostat over a 10-15 minute period AFTER the oven gets "up to temp" to see if it stays at that temperature, or if it starts to wander around.

I do watch the oven temp because it is propane gas which tends to bounce around in temperatures, preheating with this type of unit is minimum 30 minutes to stabilize the temp.


Are you using glycerine, and if so, how much are you using in the lotion?

No glycerine in any products, it makes it naturally with the oils I use so no extra is needed

No problem with creams, salves, lip balms or soaps... just lotions

I could tell you all sorts of stories about things going bad when I was down in New Mexico, including 2 liter bottles and bags of potato chips exploding on the way up the mountain from a shopping trip on the valley floor.

Oy! We have problems with that also with products, of course they have to be able to make it the snowmobile ride which is the first challenge, then the altitude.
Loup

Celeste

 

[LoupGarou]

6,000 feet, yes, you are going to have to play with the amounts to get things right. Are you using margarine or butter in your recipes? If you are using margarine, try butter, if you are using butter use a little bit less of it.

I would suggest checking the t-stat on the oven, especially if it is a gas oven. They can wander significantly.

And what are you using in your lotions as far as ingredients?

Loup

 

[davidinthewilderness]

I use butter always (margarine-yuck, and never anything like Crisco). I can try using less butter. Our butter is high in butterfat as we usually make our own.

Yes, we got a second thermometer about a year ago to double check the temp. I am not always faithful about using it because everything turns out but the chocolate products.

Lotions: depends on the lotion recipe or order, but examples:

Borax
Water
Almond Oil
Beeswax
wildcrafted herb or essential oils

Almond oil
beeswax
rosewater

Dried yarrow
water
borax
jojoba oil
sesame oil
beeswax
calendula oil

Those are kind of the basics, then I do mint lotions, and others. I had hoped to expand our product line but maybe not. It is to expensive to pitch it out.

Celeste

 

[LoupGarou]

One suggestion on the lotion, try adding in 5-10% (by weight versus the oils) of glycerin into the mix, just as a trial on one batch and see if that helps.

As far as the cooking, have you tried lowering the temp by 50-75 degrees. I seem to remember that I had luck with doing cookies at 275 versus the normal 350 that I was accustomed to back near(er) sea level.

(Yes, I am a domesticated wolf...)

Loup

 

[davidinthewilderness]

The only problem with glycerine is that many people are sensitive to it which is shy I do not use it or lanolin, except as an outcome of the natural process, such as glycerine or lambs wool that has lanolin in it.

I can try. Typically I find my recipes do better if I add to the temp rather than reduce it. But everything is game in solving this mystery. I am not sure if I have reduced the temp on chocolate baked goods.

I am domesticated too and love it!

Celeste

 

[Bubble Head]

We live at 9200 feet and have the same problems. Chocolate takes on a whole different life at altitude. As do the things that blow up on the way home like Ice Cream. Don't use the thermometer but use the force Luke. Look at what you are making and if you need to add something to make it look right do. Need to turn down the heat do. Can't make it without my chocolate so have to figure out fudge.