[FARM] Chickens sick - any ideas?

seeking one

Inactive
We have been free ranging chickens for about 4 years now. All have been purchased from McMurray Hatchery (3 different purchases of 25) and we have had good success with all until just recently. We have even hatched and raised several sets of chicks. The last batch we bought arrived on April 16 and so are about 4 months old now. We have lost 9 from that particular batch in the last 3 weeks. We always buy the mixed bag and we always have them vaccinated for Mareks and use their QuikChik for the first 8 weeks. Again - we are only losing chickens from this april 16 batch. The 3 weeks old babies we hatched are just fine and the older chickens from 1 to 4 years are also fine. This is limited to the group we call "the juniors" who are all 4 months. Their only symptoms are lethargy and runny yellow poop for two or three days and then they die. We even cut one open and could find nothing at all unusual - no lesions on skin or inside, no loss of feathers, no nothing. It is definitely not heat which has been suggested by some locals we spoke to about it. We are having cooler than normal summer here in South Arkansas. We have not changed their food - still giving them lay pellets from the local farmers co-op. We have even kept them inside their house for the last two weeks in case they were finding something outside that was poison although we have scoured the place and found nothing of that kind. We have another mopey, lethargic one now that we have segregated from the rest. She is drinking water but is off her feed.

Any ideas? We are completely baffled by this. We visited the Univ of Mississippi site that lists all kinds of chicken diseases and we read about them all but none of them have exhibited the symptoms of the diseases.

Any ideas or help will be much appreciated.
 

Plowboy

Inactive
Hi there!
We raise chickens also, from the description you gave it sounds like Coxidiosus, this is common with free ranging chickens that can come in contact with wild bird feces. Not necessarily "sick" wild birds, they normally carry it. We have a net over our chicken areas, to keep foreign birds out. We had a bout with what you are describing this spring.... placing the net over the chicken yard, took care of the problem.
 

Nigglety

Contributing Member
no guarantees sounds viral keep your own hands throughly washed with betadine scrub i've given them apple cider vinegar in their water to drink and fresh veges shredded before (carrots, garlic, greens) good luck

i've never turned around a really sick chicken but maybe this will help survivors- quarantine if possible from rest of flock

since you don't know what it is exactly antibiotics in water might help well could be coccidiosis (sp) parasite there is farm supply stuff to put in their water for that
 

duchess47

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Have you contacted McMurray about this? They are generally very helpful and may have a solution.
 

seeking one

Inactive
We're not in Gonzales; we're in Southern Arkansas.

I have emailed McMurray, but no response yet.

We have some antibiotics and did add some to water for a few days about 10 days ago. Maybe we should do it again.

If wild bird poop carries it, I guess free ranging them is out from now on. We have added a large yard within the last few days but have not topped it with anything. I guess that might be next.

I just seems odd that only the 4 month old ones are getting sick and not the babies or the older ones.

Thanks all of you for the advice and the link.
 

potemkin

Inactive
OT.

You know, I went looking for the symptoms of Avian Flu H7N7 in birds and I can't seem to find any.

Plenty of symptoms in humans, most the same Q&A, on all of the pages
 

theoutlands

Official Resister
The fact that yours are free-range and the problem is limited to a specific set of birds grouped by age imo rules out coccidiosis. Don't give up free-ranging them. If you get answers from other places, post them back here for us, please! We've got 40-ish chickens and free-range them - haven't encountered what you are dealing with yet.

BTW - we're neioghbors almost! We're in northern Louisiana.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
No, it doesn't *necessarily* rule out coccidiosis! This is an endemic disease on any farm which has wild birds (and is one of the reasons huge chicken operations are so dead set against free ranging their birds- difficult to control their exposure)

Chickens will develop immunity against coccidiosis as they age. This is one of the main reasons you can get away with using treated feed only on the very young birds. The antibiotics in the treated feed don't kill every single coccidia, but limit the number that the birds are exposed to- which allows them to develop their own immunity.

However, severe stress CAN cause a "break", where the amount of coccidia in the environment are larger than the birds current ability to fight them off. This usually happens if the pens get wet, but severe weather changes, predators (disturbing their sleep night after night) or other diseases stressing them can all cause it.

Ask at your local feed store for a coccidiostat, and feed it at TREATMENT levels. It would probably be wise to treat all your birds, even though it's only the one group getting sick. Adding some vitamins and electrolytes to the water of the sick birds would be good too.

What I suspect you may be seeing is a group of birds which were affected early on by coccidiosis, which then damaged their intestinal tracts... causing chronic problems. Hopefully the damage isn't too severe and treating the disease will allow them to heal and recover.

One other possibility is worms- not as likely, but the mechanism is oddly similar to coccidiosis- almost all birds have a few worms, most develop immunity and don't need de-worming or treatment, except under stressful conditions.

DON'T worm AND treat them for coccidiosis (or anything else) at the same time- too much added stress. I'd try the cocci treatment first, and then try worming them a week or two later, especially if they are still showing some symptoms.

Summerthyme
 

A.T.Hagan

Inactive
I'll have to agree with Summerthyme. From what you've related above it sounds like that particular lot of birds may have coccidiosis. If they're all running together I can't say why just the April 16 birds have it and not the others, but it sounds as if they do. Something is likely stressing them somehow.

I've never had to deal with coccidiosis personally, but several years ago a fellow by the name of Tim Shell put up a good post about coccidiosis in the Pastured Poultry (like your free range birds) group on Yahoo that you may find useful.

================================================
From: "Timothy R. Shell" <tshell@f...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:48 pm
Subject: Coccidia in Pastured Poultry

Hi Folks,

After learning of many who have not understood the potential ravages of coccidia in pastured poultry I have sent the following to the APPPA Grit for publication and will post it here for those who are not members of APPPA.


<b>Dealing With Coccidiosis In Pastured Poultry</b>

Coccidia are a parasitic organism that infects poultry. They can cost the pastured poultry producer much in the course of a year. The degree of loss is proportionate to the degree of uncontrolled infection. Minor infections can cause poor growth and lower dress-out weights. Major infections can cause significant mortality. In discussing pastured poultry with many folks around the country it has become clear that many pastured poultry farmers are suffering major and minor losses in flocks from coccidia. Growers profits are at risk if they are unaware of the symptoms and the management style needed to avoid losses due to coccidia.

Coccidia are ubiquitous, they are everywhere. They are carried in the feces of almost all wild birds. They are on your farm. It is always assumed that farm poultry will be exposed to coccidia. The exposure presents a normal health challenge to the birds. If well cared for, most birds exhibit a positive immune response and overcome the parasite with ease early in life. Exposure is not the problem. Exposure to pathogens is critical to the vitality of an immune system. Over-exposure or extended duration of high stress events are what create the conditions that allow the coccidia to overwhelm the birds system and cause losses. Losses from coccidia are generally the result of a breakdown in the poultry persons management which results in over-exposure of the bird to the organism. If field conditions are highly stressful for extended periods of time the birds immune system may be weakened to the point where it cannot control the organism and set the stage for the development of coccidiosis.

Coccidia problems that are the result of poor management on the part of the poultry person can be overcome by attending to some of the basic principles for growing healthy poultry. We must learn to base our livestock production models on principles, facilities, and equipment that will provide optimum growing conditions for the stock, and minimal labor and maintenance for the keeper, with ease of management. This will maximize profit to the fullest extent (provided we can process and market what we produce). There will always be a percentage of our livestock that never cease to amaze us with to what extremes they can be pushed by our bad management and still survive (shame on us). On the other hand there will always be the few that have a predisposition to get sick in any group of livestock even when the best of management has occurred and optimum conditions are provided (shame on them). Nature normally dispatches these creatures to prevent passing on the tendency to future generations. It is generally unprofitable to keep what nature has discarded. Our job is to provide optimum conditions in a model that is easy for us to manage. The easier a job is to do the more likely it is that it will get done and be well done. Lets review some of the basics of raising poultry.

<u>1. Clean water.</u>

Be sure that the birds have access to water that you would be willing to drink yourself. Go out to your poultry and look at their water and suggest to yourself that you take a drink. The degree of aversion you have to taking a sip of the birds water is proportionate to the degree of risk of excessive infection the birds are faced with. The greater the aversion, the greater the risk. Don't drink it, just use your reaction to judge the state of the water. Most people with coccidia problems would get over them right away by following this rule. You tend to loose contact with exactly how dirty the water is until you shock yourself into reality by suggesting you take a drink. "Yuk! It's dirty!" The birds opinion about it is mutual. Put out clean water and see which one they choose. This degree of watchfulness is not absolutely essential once the birds are older and have a proper immunity developed. However in early life you must not allow for dirty water. And in later life the cleaner the water the better the performance.

The big offenders here are brooder bedding (which contains feces) being scratched into the waterer or fecal/bedding dust collecting in/on the waterer or ground puddles in rainy weather. I would attribute the source of most losses related to coccidia to the last week in the brooder with dirty waterers. (I'm-going-to-put-the-birds-out-on-pasture-tomorrow syndrome). The best poultry persons have the cleanest waterers. Clean your waterers very regularly. Be sure to eliminate any wet or dirty places/puddles that the birds might have access to. They do not understand not to poop in (coccidia out of the bird, into the puddle) and drink out (coccidia out of the puddle, into the bird)of the same puddle. Mud is dangerous if they have access to the outdoors.

<u>2. Clean bedding.</u>

Be sure the birds have bedding to lounge in clean enough that you would be willing to kneel it in nice work clothes and show the peeps to your best friend's children. Wet, dirty bedding causes a hygiene overload for the birds in excess of the pathogen tolerance threshold for their immune system. All livestock have specific tolerance thresholds for specific pathogens. Above that level they get sick. Below that level they do not get sick. Exposure to a disease causing organism below a certain level of colony forming units does not cause disease even though the pathogen is in the birds system and you never know it because they are dealing with it as planned. The fact that many of us have gotten away with allowing some horribly dirty conditions for our poultry is not a tribute to our skills as poultry persons but to the wonder of the birds incredible immune system. It does not mean the birds were never exposed to germs but that their immune system was successful in overcoming the invasion. Poultry exhibit hygiene behavior that includes sliding their beak over their feathers to remove dirt. Their system is designed to handle ingesting a certain amount of dirt each day. If you give them more than they can handle they may get sick. If the dirt is from overly soiled bedding they will be ingesting their feces via preening. You will notice that the coccidia affected birds will look dirty. They "know" somehow to stop preening until their body can handle the crud. Your other birds would look that dirty too, they just clean up every day. The amount of dirt on the unpreened ones lets you know how much the others are cleaning off themselves in a short time. You must add bedding in whatever amount needed to deal with problem spots in the brooder like around the waterers and in the nightly sleeping spot. Also if some of the chicks are at a size disadvantage they may get walked on if they pile up to sleep on cold nights and have more than their fair share of dirt to clean off themselves the next day.

<u>3. The DOUBLE WHAMMY.</u>

The busy person easily falls prey sooner or later to the fault of letting the feed and/or water run out for their poultry. The combined effect of hunger and/or thirst on the birds is to encourage them to sort through the ground/bedding searching for particles of food or moisture. In a dirty environment, hungry and/or thirsty birds will almost certainly exceed the safe threshold of tolerance for pathogens as they ingest soiled material in search of food and water. This exposure level, coupled with the stress caused on their system by the hunger and thirst creates a situation ripe for disease to set in. If you are very busy it is easy to miscalculate the time your stock have been without food and or water and assume they are not too badly affected by it. But the health of the bird is the sum of the care for each of its needs that it has been given in its life.

<u>4. The TRIPLE WHAMMY</u>

Poultry love sunlight. They love to sunbathe. This is a great benefit to them. If the weather turns cloudy and damp/rainy and/or the birds have no access to direct sunlight in the brooder and early stages of life they may be at a disadvantage for proper hygiene. The sunlight is a disinfectant and a therapeutic tonic in the birds world. Doing without can contribute to outbreaks of coccidia as well as other diseases. You should have abundant natural daylight in your brooder. The combined affect of violating all of the above principles can be disastrous.

<i><u>Symptoms:</u></i>

Birds faced with an overwhelming infection of coccidia will look dirty and unkempt. They will be weak and listless, hunkered down in a corner and not moving much. They do not look healthy one day and just drop dead the next.

You can tell several days ahead which ones are on the way out. They can have bloody manure from the bleeding of the intestine caused by the irritation of the coccidia on the papillae. Severe infections will have foamy, yellow, mustard like manure. If you have birds in this condition you have already experienced significant losses in the productivity of the rest of the flock.

Left untreated coccidia can lead to necrotic enteritis (followed by death)which is the sloughing off of the inner lining of the intestine which is where the coccidia take up residence and cause intestinal bleeding. Birds suffering to this degree should be put down as recovery is not likely.

<i><u>Treatment :</u></i>

- Create an environment with abundant natural sunlight.

- Deal with dirty bedding and water. Use a plywood circle under the waterer large enough to keep the birds from scratching feces into it. Elevate the platform 3 to 4 inches above the bedding. Use drink cups or nipple waterers to provide sanitary water.

- Eliminate the wet pack areas around the waterer by removal and rebedding. This wet, soiled area is highly conducive to the exponential proliferation of anaerobic pathogens such as salmonella and e. coli. If you have had a severe infection in the brooder clean it out and disinfect and re-bed with clean product.

- Supplement with water based probiotics in the waterer. Available from the Fertrell Co.

- Jeff Mattocks of Fertrell recommended fresh raw cow/goat milk to me as a supplement in/on the feed or fed free choice as a successful remedy for coccidiosis. The milk is mucus forming and coats the intestinal track. It also has beneficial bacteria and enzymes in the raw form. I used it on the feed about 2.5Gal milk/5Gal Bucket (25 to 30 lb)of feed, well mixed. Putting it in the feed makes sure the birds all get a dose. Usually the birds turn around in 48 hours. An old poultryman told me they used to use milk products to treat coccidia before the medications came out. I had a severe infection in my flock last year due to management failures as described above and the milk worked well as a remedy, but only after I had corrected the management problems. The routine use of coccidiastats in commercial poultry feed is indicative of a model that forces the birds to live in the presence of their own feces to an abnormally high degree. There are models, thankfully, that have solved the problem by reducing the exposure to fecal material to a level that does not cross the birds threshold of tolerance for coccidia. Most of us have opted for those better models. Lets make sure they are operated correctly.

Poorly managed pasture models can lead to exposure levels to feces and other stressors equal to or greater than that of modern confinement poultry facilities.
===========================================

I would definitely check into getting a coccidiostat from your local feed store.

If your birds are ranging freely I'd doubt they'd need worming.

.....Alan.
 
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seeking one

Inactive
Thanks again to you all for finding so much info and providing it for me. After reading that article, I wonder if our very extended wet spring/summer with mostly overcast days has some bearing on this. Normally, we have a wet spring but the wet is finished by late April/early May. This year the wet season extended through mid July and we are even now having unseasonably cool weather. Except for uncontrollable weather, our birds get lots of sunshine since we free range them. They range over about 3 acres (there is more area; that's just how much they generally roam over), and their house has about half again as much area under roof as is recommended. Their water comes from a hanging peck water mechanism fed by a 30 gallon barrel filled with city water that has been treated with chlorine. Barrel is cleaned periodically and treated with additional chlorine. Dirty water is not a problem for them, except that they gleefully drink from every puddle they can find after a rain. Don't know how we would stop that short of leveling the entire area with the tractor. We keep their house filled with leaves/grass/pine needles and refresh it quite often. They have hanging feeders so their food stays dry and clean plus they get "snacks" every afternoon of a grain mixture that they really like. We sprinkle that for them near the chicken house late every afternoon. Our birds are pampered darlings as you can tell, so don't know how they could be stressed unless it is from the unusually wet weather.

We started using a product called Sulmet (sulfamethazine sodium 12.5%) this morning - 1 oz per gallon of water - giving it to them in a large bowl which makes it a "treat". Instructions call for this dosage for 2 days, then 1/2 this dosage for 4 more. Co-op recommended this product. We'll see how it goes. Hopefully, we won't lose any more.

thanks again - I'll let you guys know what happens if anything.
 

theoutlands

Official Resister
Sorry I've been instructed by the ignorant. None of the chicken-raisers we've talked to have *ever* mentioned coccidiosis occurring in a discrete "age-group" of birds - it's always been an "if one's got it, they've all got it" story here. The one time our flock started showing signs of it, I put colloidal silver in their waterers and they cleared up in about 2 days.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Doc- don't worry about it! coccidiosis is one of those oddball diseases where if you've got it... you've got it for good. (and except for "clean houses", with special bio-locks and isolation procedures in place, EVERYONE has it).

However, except for babies (this applies to cows as well, BUT it's a different strain of coccidiosis and cows can't catch it from birds), MOSTLY they develop immunity that works. Unless or until they get stressed. (And S-O, it's NOT something *you* necessarily did... the wet weather definitely can cause it, as can "up and down" weather conditions)

So it's possible (and I've seen this in calves) for only a single animal in the group to "break" with cocci, if that individual had some type of stress the others didn't experience. It's also possible for an individual with immune system issues to never develop the permanent protective immunity that normally applies.

After 25+ years of doctoring animals of all species, I'm still learning.

Summerthyme
 

blue gecko

Inactive
Would providing a dust bath containing diatomaceous earth be of benefit? Since coccidiosis is a parasite it just makes sense to me to try DE. An other vermafuge is sesame seeds (unhulled). They could be added to your feed occaisionally. Still not sure this would work on chickens but I can't see where it would hurt. BG
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
BG- it won't hurt, certainly, but it won't really do much against coccidiosis. It's NOT exactly a parasite, at least not like the ones you're thinking of- worms and exterior bugs like lice. It's microscopic, and DE won't do anything to it.

However, anything that can help reduce the stress on the animal won't hurt, and providing conditions conducive to a "dust bath" will pretty much take care of the wet litter or dampness problem that often causes a coccidiosis "break". Of course, around here this year, that would be pretty near impossible- we've had rain on nearly a daily basis since it stopped snowing :-(

Summerthyme
 

seeking one

Inactive
So far so good. One hen might be a tad mopey, but that's all. Maybe the Sulmet is working. I'll post again in a day or two regardless of results.

Wish we had a crossing fingers icon.
 
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