GUNS/RLTD CENTER OF FACE IS THE NEW CENTER OF MASS

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
I'm not a fan of Gabe or several other trainers I could name, for various reasons. Yet this is for the most part an essay I can pick apart and benefit from. Posted with trust that you can too... see the photos at the source.

The times, they are a'changin' - and we need to keep up. Louis Awerbuck always said that the state of the art is a moving target- it still is.
====================

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/07/center-of-face-center-of-mass.html

CENTER OF FACE NOT CENTER OF MASS

Wednesday, July 20, 2016

Micah-Johnson-dallas-shooter-killed

Look at the image above. See the hard plates worn by the terrorist Johnson in Dallas? If you shoot that with a handgun or rifle, it will have no effect whatsoever.

Its is 2016 and with new developments and observations of the SOP of our enemies the terrorists, new paradigms must be established, and new skills to meet the new requirements must be developed and practiced. I don't want to hear from guys who are still thinking it is 1985 and want to play the odds against the broken bottle armed punk in the alley with their J-Frame and five shots. Times have changed and our methods must adapt or be crushed by the wheels of history.

The New Paradigm

Today we must assume any adversary is wearing body armor...and in some cases a bomb vest. We all recall James Holmes, the movie-theater shooter in Aurora, Colorado. He wore, according to sources, “a ballistic helmet, a tactical ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, a throat protector, and a groin protector.” And we get vague reports from LE about the San Bernardino Terrorists wearing armor. And we know that Mateen, the Orlando Jihadist, attempted to buy armor that would defeat rifle fire. The fortunately astute and profiling salesman refused to sell it to him. And of course, we know that Micah Johnson, the Dallas Terrorist was wearing a full set of rifle plates.

We also know form studying the events of the past two years both at home and overseas in developed nations, that the use of bomb vests has increased. In an FBI study on Active Shooter events (up to 2012) showed that in 5% of events, the terrorists brought crude bomb vests. And I will bet most of you have already forgotten Joel Henry Hinrichs III. Hinrichs was the first guy to my knowledge to have attempted a suicide bombing in the USA post 9/11. On October 1, 2005, after having been refused entry to a football game at Oklahoma State University, Hinrichs detonated three pounds of TATP he was carrying on his body. As the Syrian refugee invasion continues into the west, it is unavoidable that the combat knowledge possessed by the many jihadists among them will spread and the quality and stability of these improvised explosives will become more common.


So today, we see the hapless Turkish police officer running in terror at the realization the man he just brought down with a body shot is still alive and about to set off an explosive device. We see the race terrorist Johnson, wearing a full set of plates that even a rifle could not have defeated. And we know the prevalence of technology means that armor is not only prolific and accessible, but so is the widely published information on building a bomb vest. We also know that just as a body shot to a set of SAPI plates will be a waste of effort, a shot from a handgun to a poorly designed bomb vest will set it off with alacrity.

Response to the New Paradigm

All my pistol practice is to the face/neck area. I target the area we will henceforth call "Center Of Face" or COF for short. I no longer worry about center of mass chest shots unless they are true, completely unexpected, reactive shooting events filled with extreme surprise and close range emergency movement. And even then...my objective is to achieve a face shot as soon as possible. If there is even a tenth of a degree of preparation or proactive process, its a face/neck shot immediately.

The argument for has been established above, but there are still many in the training field that resist my line of thinking, just as they did when I taught the first Terrorist/Active Shooter Interdiction Class back in 2005. Now they are all emulating that class...and soon their position on head shots as I describe will change as well. Just watch.

Their reasons for clinging to the center of mass include but are not limited to the following:

Tango1). It is too difficult for Sally Soccer-mom and Retired Robert to pull this off. Well, yes it may be. As I said in a previous, now viral article, we live in a time of war. Adaptions must be made.

The terrorist will not take it easy nor spare Robert or Sally, or those who are like them. At the end of the day, people will either be up to the task, or they will not. If they are not, they won't survive the day. Harsh perhaps but that is reality.

Better to tell a student the truth, and give them the opportunity to increase their skills than to mislead them about the minimum being sufficient.

Is it difficult to do what we are suggesting? I don't think so. Lets look at the target to the left. I am drawing a target box around the face and upper neck, and as wide as the outer corners of the eyes.

From sternal notch to browline is about 8" vertically, and across the width of the face is about 4" horizontally.

To illustrate this, take a standard 8.5x11 sheet of paper and fold it in half. That is about the size of your target from the front, side and back. So its not as difficult a target as the throwbacks would have you think.

Moreover, the idea that the shot to head will only work if you hit a small credit card sized "cranio-ocular cavity" is false. Again, look at the target on the left.

The throat area has many structures which are easily injured. The jugular veins as well as the easily reached spine and their destruction would insure a "stop". If I take a baseball bat and smash a terrorist in the face with it, I don't have to hit a credit card to get the desired effect.

And lets also get away from the slow deliberate single surgical brain shot for this application. Certainly, if you have the time for that do so, but if you do not, send the same burst you would normally have fired at the chest area into the face area. Once you let go of the notion that these shots must be fired at different speeds, you will realize the damage that you can do. The mind set has to change and get away from the idea of "scoring a target". Its not about the target, or the score...it is about the killing.

A handful of bullets will do much better.

2). Along the complaints of difficulty for the under-achiever class is the incessant and apparently ingrained fear of legal repercussions for going to the head in the first place, and the legality of errant rounds missing and hitting someone/something else.

Going to the head as a primary target and a preferred target can easily be justified by simply reading this article, and perhaps looking at the daily news. It is not 1985 any more kids and the mind set of those days must change. I know those that profit from the ingrained fear of the legal system will never agree, but few of them have ever actually shot anyone so theirs is more a theoretical position than a real one. Pre-selecting the COF is not only justified, but in the world of body armor, IEDs, ISIS and urban terror, it is the only wise choice.

Read - The New Threat Paradigm

Read - The Terrorist VS The Criminal

And on the fear of missing (and thus not shooting) here is an interesting fact. Police Officers hit their targets roughly 34 percent of the time. That means that they miss 66% of the time. Yet we don't hear of nuns and orphans dropping like flies from errant police gunfire do we? Why not? Because another truth of combat is that where ever the bullets are flying, there will always be more air than meat. But even if that were not the case, is it wise and prudent to refrain from shooting out of fear? I submit that such a mind set will indirectly cause your death or the death of others.

What would have happened if Jeanne Assam had not shot Matthew James Murray? Or if Donald J. Moore had not shot the man who entered the AT&T store in New York Mills, New York carrying a .357 magnum revolver in his hand and a list of employees he planned to kill in his pocket. Or if Jonathan Baer had not engaged Hjelmeland. Or if the good guys that find themselves at ground zero every time do not engage out of an unreasonable fear of being unable to meet an unreasonable expectation? Then they die and everyone they could have saved also dies. And in the case of the Bataclan Theater Terrorism, dying by the gunfire of the terrorists would be a merciful thing.

Holding on to old tactics and training methods from a long ago peacetime is foolish. We live in a time of war.
 
I have been practicing that for several years now, ahead of the curve.

I don't want to be injured when surgeons and hospitals might not be available.
 

medic38572

TB Fanatic
Thats what I have been saying 2 to the face and one to blow the vest up! From a safe distance of course! Ever since they killed the muslim fella in the UK. That would be the new standard and thats what should be learned.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Head/neck shots can be funny. I do agree that several shots are preferable to one with that area as the intended point of impact. Recall the Dem delegate from PA who just shot her hubby - where did she shoot him? (In the neck)

I worked one call as an EMT where a would-be robber was shot in the neck by his intended victim - a through and through with no serious damage. And there was one call on a 'tween-the-eyes shooting where the bullet ran between skull and scalp, and exited the back of the head of the victim. Bullet hole in front, bullet hole in back, very much alive and active patient. We waited at the hospital to get feedback from the docs on that one, and we found out it was just superficial.

But then there was the bar shooting where the vic took one from a small caliber pistol up the left nostril. No visible entrance, a trickle of blood from the nose, no exit we could find, and a pt dead as a mackerel. Go figure.

There was another one where an aggrieved woman who caught her man at home in flagrante with another woman, picked up a .22 rifle from behind the door, led the fleeing man like a bunny rabbit and rolled him up in a ball on the lawn with one shot that hit him just behind the ear. When we got there she was screaming she didn't mean to kill him. Go figure...

Head/neck shots can be tricky things. Use them with due caution - and accuracy.
 

K99

Fridge Ranger
I'm not a fan of Gabe or several other trainers I could name, for various reasons. Yet this is for the most part an essay I can pick apart and benefit from. Posted with trust that you can too... see the photos at the source.

The times, they are a'changin' - and we need to keep up. Louis Awerbuck always said that the state of the art is a moving target- it still is.
====================

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/07/center-of-face-center-of-mass.html

CENTER OF FACE NOT CENTER OF MASS

Wednesday, July 20, 2016

Micah-Johnson-dallas-shooter-killed

Look at the image above. See the hard plates worn by the terrorist Johnson in Dallas? If you shoot that with a handgun or rifle, it will have no effect whatsoever.

Its is 2016 and with new developments and observations of the SOP of our enemies the terrorists, new paradigms must be established, and new skills to meet the new requirements must be developed and practiced. I don't want to hear from guys who are still thinking it is 1985 and want to play the odds against the broken bottle armed punk in the alley with their J-Frame and five shots. Times have changed and our methods must adapt or be crushed by the wheels of history.

The New Paradigm

Today we must assume any adversary is wearing body armor...and in some cases a bomb vest. We all recall James Holmes, the movie-theater shooter in Aurora, Colorado. He wore, according to sources, “a ballistic helmet, a tactical ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, a throat protector, and a groin protector.” And we get vague reports from LE about the San Bernardino Terrorists wearing armor. And we know that Mateen, the Orlando Jihadist, attempted to buy armor that would defeat rifle fire. The fortunately astute and profiling salesman refused to sell it to him. And of course, we know that Micah Johnson, the Dallas Terrorist was wearing a full set of rifle plates.

We also know form studying the events of the past two years both at home and overseas in developed nations, that the use of bomb vests has increased. In an FBI study on Active Shooter events (up to 2012) showed that in 5% of events, the terrorists brought crude bomb vests. And I will bet most of you have already forgotten Joel Henry Hinrichs III. Hinrichs was the first guy to my knowledge to have attempted a suicide bombing in the USA post 9/11. On October 1, 2005, after having been refused entry to a football game at Oklahoma State University, Hinrichs detonated three pounds of TATP he was carrying on his body. As the Syrian refugee invasion continues into the west, it is unavoidable that the combat knowledge possessed by the many jihadists among them will spread and the quality and stability of these improvised explosives will become more common.


So today, we see the hapless Turkish police officer running in terror at the realization the man he just brought down with a body shot is still alive and about to set off an explosive device. We see the race terrorist Johnson, wearing a full set of plates that even a rifle could not have defeated. And we know the prevalence of technology means that armor is not only prolific and accessible, but so is the widely published information on building a bomb vest. We also know that just as a body shot to a set of SAPI plates will be a waste of effort, a shot from a handgun to a poorly designed bomb vest will set it off with alacrity.

Response to the New Paradigm

All my pistol practice is to the face/neck area. I target the area we will henceforth call "Center Of Face" or COF for short. I no longer worry about center of mass chest shots unless they are true, completely unexpected, reactive shooting events filled with extreme surprise and close range emergency movement. And even then...my objective is to achieve a face shot as soon as possible. If there is even a tenth of a degree of preparation or proactive process, its a face/neck shot immediately.

The argument for has been established above, but there are still many in the training field that resist my line of thinking, just as they did when I taught the first Terrorist/Active Shooter Interdiction Class back in 2005. Now they are all emulating that class...and soon their position on head shots as I describe will change as well. Just watch.

Their reasons for clinging to the center of mass include but are not limited to the following:

Tango1). It is too difficult for Sally Soccer-mom and Retired Robert to pull this off. Well, yes it may be. As I said in a previous, now viral article, we live in a time of war. Adaptions must be made.

The terrorist will not take it easy nor spare Robert or Sally, or those who are like them. At the end of the day, people will either be up to the task, or they will not. If they are not, they won't survive the day. Harsh perhaps but that is reality.

Better to tell a student the truth, and give them the opportunity to increase their skills than to mislead them about the minimum being sufficient.

Is it difficult to do what we are suggesting? I don't think so. Lets look at the target to the left. I am drawing a target box around the face and upper neck, and as wide as the outer corners of the eyes.

From sternal notch to browline is about 8" vertically, and across the width of the face is about 4" horizontally.

To illustrate this, take a standard 8.5x11 sheet of paper and fold it in half. That is about the size of your target from the front, side and back. So its not as difficult a target as the throwbacks would have you think.

Moreover, the idea that the shot to head will only work if you hit a small credit card sized "cranio-ocular cavity" is false. Again, look at the target on the left.

The throat area has many structures which are easily injured. The jugular veins as well as the easily reached spine and their destruction would insure a "stop". If I take a baseball bat and smash a terrorist in the face with it, I don't have to hit a credit card to get the desired effect.

And lets also get away from the slow deliberate single surgical brain shot for this application. Certainly, if you have the time for that do so, but if you do not, send the same burst you would normally have fired at the chest area into the face area. Once you let go of the notion that these shots must be fired at different speeds, you will realize the damage that you can do. The mind set has to change and get away from the idea of "scoring a target". Its not about the target, or the score...it is about the killing.

A handful of bullets will do much better.

2). Along the complaints of difficulty for the under-achiever class is the incessant and apparently ingrained fear of legal repercussions for going to the head in the first place, and the legality of errant rounds missing and hitting someone/something else.

Going to the head as a primary target and a preferred target can easily be justified by simply reading this article, and perhaps looking at the daily news. It is not 1985 any more kids and the mind set of those days must change. I know those that profit from the ingrained fear of the legal system will never agree, but few of them have ever actually shot anyone so theirs is more a theoretical position than a real one. Pre-selecting the COF is not only justified, but in the world of body armor, IEDs, ISIS and urban terror, it is the only wise choice.

Read - The New Threat Paradigm

Read - The Terrorist VS The Criminal

And on the fear of missing (and thus not shooting) here is an interesting fact. Police Officers hit their targets roughly 34 percent of the time. That means that they miss 66% of the time. Yet we don't hear of nuns and orphans dropping like flies from errant police gunfire do we? Why not? Because another truth of combat is that where ever the bullets are flying, there will always be more air than meat. But even if that were not the case, is it wise and prudent to refrain from shooting out of fear? I submit that such a mind set will indirectly cause your death or the death of others.

What would have happened if Jeanne Assam had not shot Matthew James Murray? Or if Donald J. Moore had not shot the man who entered the AT&T store in New York Mills, New York carrying a .357 magnum revolver in his hand and a list of employees he planned to kill in his pocket. Or if Jonathan Baer had not engaged Hjelmeland. Or if the good guys that find themselves at ground zero every time do not engage out of an unreasonable fear of being unable to meet an unreasonable expectation? Then they die and everyone they could have saved also dies. And in the case of the Bataclan Theater Terrorism, dying by the gunfire of the terrorists would be a merciful thing.

Holding on to old tactics and training methods from a long ago peacetime is foolish. We live in a time of war.

whats your problem with Suarez?
 

willowlady

Veteran Member
But then there was the bar shooting where the vic took one from a small caliber pistol up the left nostril. No visible entrance, a trickle of blood from the nose, no exit we could find, and a pt dead as a mackerel. Go figure.

Not terribly surprising. If done at the correct angle (pretty much in alignment with the slope of the nose), that is one of the direct routes to the cranial cavity -- and the brain. The real question is: Was that on purpose, or a freak accident?
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
I go with the same philosophy that I learned in Shotokan Karate. Hit the center line as hard and as often as you can from the face to the groin and back again and keep marching forward through the opponent until they are down and then kick the hell out of them again and again as necessary until the threat is totally and ultimately removed. There is no second place in this game...only the living and the dead. It's as simple as that.
 

colonel holman

Veteran Member
Not terribly surprising. If done at the correct angle (pretty much in alignment with the slope of the nose), that is one of the direct routes to the cranial cavity -- and the brain. The real question is: Was that on purpose, or a freak accident?

goes directly to the midbrain for the quickest deadliest most certain lights-out... dead before the knees unlock
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
So whats YOUR problem with him?

My problem with him is the same as that of everyone else who has a problem with him. Not everyone has a problem with him of course. This is not a Suarez popularity thread, either look it up or leave it alone. Fair warning was given and that is all.


a freak accident

Definitely a freak accident.
 

K99

Fridge Ranger
So whats YOUR problem with him?

My problem with him is the same as that of everyone else who has a problem with him. Not everyone has a problem with him of course. This is not a Suarez popularity thread, either look it up or leave it alone. Fair warning was given and that is all.


a freak accident

Definitely a freak accident.

copout on your part. you said you dont like him then told me to look it up. what would I look up?
 

Satanta

Stone Cold Crazy
_______________
I've always practiced head/neck shots. I have shot many critters in one of the other including thru the eye socket to end them.

Frankly I will shoot whatever is available. If they have ducked behind something and I see a pinky toe guess what is getting a bullet in it?

Body armor is great, wish I had some but if a round in the boot makes them stumble it open a lot of spots the armor may not cover. Never ben shot in the crotch with a ballsack armor but I am guessing it won't feel good.

Personally I'd prefer HE but whatever I have is getting used as best as I can.

Remember those guys in Kali with the multi-street shootout, them with armor and the cops couldn't stop them? They did not move fast enough that two guys to one side could not attact their attention while third guy ran their armored up asses over with a 4x4.
 

Texican

Live Free & Die Free.... God Freedom Country....
Look at the image above. See the hard plates worn by the terrorist Johnson in Dallas? If you shoot that with a handgun or rifle, it will have no effect whatsoever.

Overstatement....

308 at muzzle 2,800+ ft-lbs at 300 yards 1,500+ ft-lbs
223 at muzzle 1,250+ ft-lbs at 300 yards 450+ ft-lbs

one in the chest even with rifle plates will put the receiver down and hurting, but probably still alive....

LEO's generally have smaller caliber (223) rifles due to down range problems....
Large caliber firearms are provided to the better trained....

Rifle plates are worth the cost and weight to potentially save your life....

Texican....
 

biere

Veteran Member
There is currently a lot of discussion about various armor and what not.

Lots of stuff on youtube.

If you have not, run searches and learn about level III, III+, and IV. The III+ is not really all across the spectrum from what I have heard, but it is something to learn about.

If out and about with just a handgun, body armor won't let you do a whole lot if you hit the armor. Learn about where the plates are and how they sit and start learning what things look like.

Even if you have a rifle, know its limitations. Barrel length and bullet choice will affect what your specific rifle can do. Saying X out of a 20 inch ar15 barrel is great. But if we just go to x out of an ar15 there is a decent difference between a 20 inch barrel and a 14.5 with 1.5 inch flash hider permanently attached. And not all bullets are created equal.

I am not going to get into that part of it, I don't know enough to even suggest where you start and end.

But watching youtube will give you some specific things to consider.

I like seeing so many groups and people trying to help their local police when it comes to being able to have the tools in the toolbox, and if needed help fund the purchase of some of those tools.
 

Mongo

Veteran Member
I do most practice shooting on paper plates.
Typically I affix them to the backstop at head, upper chest, and pelvis area.
I like shots to pelvic girdle...
 

Mongo

Veteran Member
Oh, and FWIW, I have lots of respect and lots of time for Gabe Suarez. I have actually met him, taken a course from him, and discussed "non-gun things" with him. He also totally changed one of my paradigms developed by carrying and offensively using a 1911 for over a decade.
In many ways, Gabe is a "Bruce Lee" of this era (as also is Craig Douglas/Southnarc) - both think way outside of the conventional box, both upset some large and well established apple carts.
...and people get miffed...
 

Jackpine Savage

Veteran Member
Don't expect the pelvic girdle to be an immediate put down. Suarez, Dave Spaulding, and several others have pretty much dismissed that theory.
 

Groucho

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Practice, practice, practice! If you're not out practicing at least twice a month with your carry firearm, in the unbelievable stress of combat, you'll probably miss regardless of chest or head shot.

Sorry, don't mean to get preachy.
 

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have never been impressed with the "Mozambique Drill," or, two shots to the chest, one to the head... I've always been of the minority opinion that one should shoot for the corpus callosum. Hitting it, or the brain stem, instantly, automatically, terminates the target. With the brain dead, the body is dead.

If one is not able to strike with absolute precision, the pelvic area is certainly available, as in destroying the body's center and basis for being erect, and moving. Think of a puppet with its strings cut. Taking out the pelvis removes an enemy from mobility, thusly increasing your chances of survival.

Body armor is prevalent, and available, to criminals and terrorists. Good armor, and the means with which to carry it, is expensive. Terrorists and criminals either steal it from those law abiding citizens, or purchase it, both legally and illegally... Most people I know, cannot afford it. Shucks, at present, I can't afford it, but that's immaterial, as I am no longer as strong and robust as I once was...

If you look at a well trained and equipped SWAT team, you'll see all major organs and appendages protected. That now, to a degree, includes the person's face/ocular region, with ballistic face shields, and equal to, or superior to, military style helmets. Criminals and terrorists, won't have any problem in gearing-up, and doing their mayhem in style not available to even some law enforcement agencies or departments. Money, drenched in blood, can purchase all sorts of advantages today.

Suarez talks of pistols, and yes, many of us do carry, as I do, at all times. As he points out, a pistol, or even a rifle or shotgun, won't affect much, against armor, properly placed and worn by a terrorist or criminal. Last week I watched "44 Minutes, the Hollywood Shoot-out," a very good lesson on armored perpetrators versus unarmored police... Yes, it's Hollywood, but all in all, it's as accurate as Hollywood could, or would do, back in 2004, concerning the event in 1997. That they used the research of LAPD, FBI, and others, doesn't denigrate their final product. Thought provoking, in the extreme. One could only wish that they'd done a movie about the FBI shootout in Miami years before...

Armor? Most don't have, or cannot a afford, it. So, what's the alternative? Escape and evade, or go for instant kill, via the ocular area/corpus callosum. If you don't have the clear shot, take out the pelvis. In the movie "44 Minutes," I kept shouting at the screen, when one of the bank robbers was behind a vehicle, "Shoot him in the legs! Shoot him in the legs!" Well, obviously, neither the actors, nor the men and women involved could hear me... But finally, they did what I considered the obvious- they incapacitated him by shooting his legs, incapacitating him, movement wise. After that, his fate was sealed.

It all boils down to situational awareness, resolve, and precision.

GBY&Y's

Maranatha

OA
 

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB

paul bunyan

Frostbite Falls, Minnesota
New Rules of Engagement... Center of Mass Now Center of Face

Hi, Lots of folks are more highly trained and more lucid of thought than I.

Just a piece for your consideration. Hope Gabe Suarez is not on the precluded list ;).

Center of Mass Shots now replaced by center of face, or back of head or in the auditory canal!


Center of Mass is now frequently protected by body armor or suicide vest. :bhmo:

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2016/07/when-you-cant-shoot-them-in-the-face.html

WHEN YOU CAN'T SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE - GO FOR BACK OF THE HEAD

Wednesday, July 27, 2016


In the movie El Diablo, Thomas Van Leek, played by Louis Gossett, Jr., is a no-nonsense gunslinger who shot a number of antagonists in the back. When asked about it, he replies simply, "Because his back was to me."
That is supposed to be a comedy line of course as we know no western hero worth his salt would ever deny his opponent the opportunity to draw first, much less shoot him in the back...like, well...a coward. You see, much like the Hall Monitor Mentality, the Lone Ranger Mentality has been deeply imbued in the American male psyche. The Lone Ranger never drew first, never threw the first punch, and my God…never shot a man in the back.
And many a good man has shed the fullness of his life on the asphalt and dirt because of that ridiculous programming.
Just last weekend we had a suicide bomber in Bavaria. No, it was not a chemical experiment gone wrong by chemist refugees. It was a Syrian that had pledged allegiance to the Islamic Jihad. I am told the bomb was quite sophisticated. As I suspected, with the increasing push into the west by these people, the war knowledge of how to make better bombs will become more widespread.

I already discussed the COF as the new target for today's threats. Many seem to have not gotten the ethos of the discussion.

1). This is NOT a Failure Drill, or a Drug/Body Armor Drill, or a Mozambique Drill. Here we are specifically and clearly, without euphemisms or verbal deflections, targeting the face/neck area of the bad guy to kill him as quickly as possible. If that takes one shot, great. But if it takes fifteen to the face, that is acceptable as well.

2). America needs to get its head out of the "mugger in the parking lot" paradigm, and it needs to stop reading articles penned by people attempting to sell them legal services. Certainly, there are still muggers in parking lots, but that "crime" paradigm will not work in an active shooter or terrorist event. As we progress into the decade, whether the traditionalist "defense-minded" trainers like it or not, not all shootings will be "self defense" shootings. Some by the very nature of the events in discussion will be proactive pistol ambushes designed to take and kill the terrorist unannounced and by surprise. And not only is that perfectly legal, it is praise worthy.

3). We are discussing PISTOLS, not rifles and not shotguns. Although rifles and shotguns are far preferable to go to a fight with, I severely doubt that many of you will get into a fight with anything but your pistol. Understand the distinction - "Go To", and "Get Into". One is planned and proactive, the other is not. Unless you go about your day with a Daniel Defense M4 slung over your back, I think what you will have when you face the terrorist is a handgun...hopefully a good one.













Now to the target. Often the face will not be, well, facing you. That is a huge blessing as the terrorist will not know specifically that you are there. So lets consider the side shot and the rear shot.

From the back, we have an area roughly delineated by the top of the ears across, down from there on each side, and then bottomed out by the base of the neck. I am stopping at the base of the neck, not because a spine shot will not have a great result, but because a ballistic vest, or a bomb vest may obscure the target. We don't need a degree in anatomy to see what lies just under the surface.

From the side, consider the focal point the ear canal. But a rectangular box with the ear as the center will give you an idea of what is available.

I seem to have taken a great many words to tell you that it is not only acceptable, but encouraged that you shoot the terrorist/active shooter in the back of the head, without saying a single thing to him.
And if the Lone Ranger Association wants their stupid white hat back, and Michael Moore doesn't want to be your friend, fear not...I have plenty of black hats for sale at the store, and real men who will call you brother.


Thank you for you attention.

Now fire away!:dstrs::dstrs::dstrs:
 

paul bunyan

Frostbite Falls, Minnesota
Edited to Add: Doz beat me to this by a mile, posting on 7 21... Jeez, Just started reading Gabe and realize he did a double post to stress importance.
sorry I could not find a recent posting to avoid a dupe. hahahah

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Looks like I was a bit late on posting about this idea. threads merged obviously. no notice given... heh...

Didn't realize this topic was secret?

Funniest thing about it is I am now officially a poster in the Bomb Shelter even though I do not belong!

Will wunders never cease.

Peace and love to all,

PB
 
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Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Good thing you posted the second part. I saw it, but after the furball that erupted from posting the first part I decided to just let it go.
 

Adino

paradigm shaper
Walk your way up.

Center of torso up to center of head.

Don't forget the neck. There is rarely armor there.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Farnam used to teach that - he called it 'the zipper.' Don't know if he still does or not.*

I'd have to say, given an unaware assailant, and as much as it goes against decades of previous training, I'd have to go for the head shot pretty much off the bat if the situation ever arose to require it.

*After lunch, we did the same drill live fire. This was some students’ first exposure to the “zipper” technique John teaches. Rather than aiming exclusively at the upper torso or center of mass, you fire your first shot at the navel area and move up the midline of the body to the upper chest. Starting at belt level prevents the gun from obscuring the target’s hands, and ensures you won’t lose sight of the assailant if he ducks. The area a few inches on either side of the body’s midline is filled with major arteries and organs, making it a good all the way up. This is rather different from the way most students had been taught previously, and many of them tended to fire one shot into the belly and the rest into the upper torso rather than working their way up.

Rather than taping every shot after each string of fire, John has the students tape only the misses (those not within a six inch strip running up the middle of the target). Not only does this save time for most shooters, it also emphasizes that absolute precision is not the goal, just getting rounds within the target area.
-- http://utahpolitesociety.blogspot.com/2009/11/john-farnams-scenario-based-defensive.html
 

paul bunyan

Frostbite Falls, Minnesota
No more Mozambique,, Pour on the Lead!

Good thing you posted the second part. I saw it, but after the furball that erupted from posting the first part I decided to just let it go.

Just finished reading the furball,,,heh

Spent a few minutes trying to find my new Thread.... Now it is merged with yours which is most appropriate.

My last defensive pistol training session, about 2 weeks ago, was very different than in the past.
No more Mozambique?? 2 to torso and 1 to head.

My newest trainer, who does training for operators and personal protection forces, stressed either massive volume of fire to torso, or multiple rounds to the face. That training session was about 2 weeks agl.

Furball warning.. He also uses a Glock 17 to provide simplicity and large volume of fire. Had a great time by the way.

PB
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Glock 17

Also a better sight radius for iron sights, and more room to mount a mini red dot if so desired.

IMG_3086.jpg


== from http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/f...-for-pistols-jeff-gonzales-joins-us-for-a-qa/
 

zeda1

Senior Member
Ok, someone needs to explain what happens to the energy of a 150gr. 308 hitting someone say 50 feet away in one of those "special" level 3 plates. It should be about a little over a ton of energy. Has to knock him down and cause extensive soft tissue trauma and in my mind out of the fight for awhile. Am I wrong thinking that way?
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
If the round would literally knock down the target - it would also knock down the shooter as well.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction ... basic physics.
 

Texican

Live Free & Die Free.... God Freedom Country....
Ok, someone needs to explain what happens to the energy of a 150gr. 308 hitting someone say 50 feet away in one of those "special" level 3 plates. It should be about a little over a ton of energy. Has to knock him down and cause extensive soft tissue trauma and in my mind out of the fight for awhile. Am I wrong thinking that way?

Level 3 plates will not stop a 308 at 50 feet. The perp would die, if not right then, then after a short period of time and the impact shock and wound will put him out of service....

Level 4 plates will stop a 308, but the perp will be hurting and on the ground ready for a shot to the crotch/legs, side or head....

Texican....
 
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