OP-ED Can't Kill Enough to Win? Think Again - Proceedings Magazine December 2017

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Wow, talk about going to the ugly truth....

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017-12/cant-kill-enough-win-think-again

Home » Magazines » Proceedings Magazine - December 2017 Vol. 144/12/1,378

Can't Kill Enough to Win? Think Again

Proceedings Magazine - December 2017 Vol. 144/12/1,378
By Lieutenant Colonel David G. Bolgiano, U.S. Air Force (Retired), and Lieutenant Colonel John Taylor, U.S. Army (Retired)

When is the United States going to do the killing necessary to beat its terrorist enemies or eliminate them entirely?

Those given the awful task of combat must be able to act with the necessary savagery and purposefulness to destroy those acting as, or in direct support of, Islamic terrorists worldwide. In 2008, then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Navy Admiral Michael Mullen said, “We can’t kill our way to victory.” Ever since, many have parroted his words. But what if Admiral Mullen was wrong? The United States has been at war with radical Islamists four times longer than it was with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in World War II. And those previous enemies were far more competent and aggressive than the terrorists. It is time to kill a lot more of them.

Too many commanders and their “operational law” judge advocates have neutered U.S. military forces with far too restrictive rules of engagement and investigations. 1 One Army infantry battalion commander reported that during a 15-month command tour in Iraq, he had to endure 600 AR 15-6 investigations (equivalent to a Navy JAG manual investigation), most of which examined the use of force by his troops. When asked when he had time to command, he answered, “Exactly.”

Human behavior has not changed much in recorded history. Neither have the basic tenets of war. It takes killing with speed and sustained effect to win wars. The notions that the U.S. military can win with “precision strikes” or “winning hearts and minds” are fantasy. Even the great victory in Operation Desert Storm was a bloody killing field. Just ask the remnants of the Tawakalna Division of the Iraqi Army.

During the American Civil War, the Union literally bled the Confederacy dry of fighting-age men. General Ulysses S. Grant’s Army of the Potomac killed its fellow Americans by the tens of thousands until General Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia could not resist. It was that pressure that led Lee—arguably the greatest tactician on either side—to surrender. Grant killed his way to victory. He had the manpower advantage as well as the economic and industrial power to do so.

This country’s “Greatest Generation” killed enormous numbers of the enemy’s military servicemen and civilians in World War II. General Curtis LeMay knew that if he killed enough Japanese they would quit. While brutal by 2017 standards, his approach yielded lasting results—a productive peace with Japan that has lasted since 1945. The legal justification then—the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor—is the same casus belli as the one in the current war against al Qaeda and the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL): the 11 September 2001 sneak attack on the United States.

Had the United States not killed Japanese soldiers, sailors, and airmen in the hundreds of thousands, it is likely they would have fought on and the U.S. military would have been forced to kill millions in close ground combat until they finally quit. The United States and its allies did the same against Nazi Germany. While victory required taking and holding territory, the Germans and Japanese fought until it became clear to them that the Allies would keep killing them until they quit.

George MacDonald Fraser, author of the Flashman fiction series, was a foot soldier in British Field Marshal William Slim’s Army in Burma during World War II. In his memoir about that experience, Quartered Safe Out Here, Fraser wrote intimately as a military leader when justifying the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

I led Nine Section for a time; leading it or not, I was part of it. They were my mates, and I was bound by ties of duty. Now, take Nine Section as representing those Allied soldiers who would certainly have died if the bombs had not been dropped. Could I say, Grandarse or Nick or Foster were expendable, and should have died rather than the victims of Hiroshima? No. Never. And that goes for every Indian, American, Australian, African, Chinese and other soldier whose life was on the line in August 1945. So drop the bomb. 2

Sadly, this generation has pooh-poohed Fraser’s experience and beliefs. His experience, in what he acknowledged was another age, was that war was a job that needed to be done, one accomplished by his generation without relish but with a common sense and resolve since vanished from the public spirit. 3

President Harry S. Truman did not flinch to drop the atomic bombs on Japan, and all the caterwauling of the antiwar academics living off the largesse ensured to them by our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen cannot belie the efficacy and righteousness of his decision. 4 Hopefully, common sense and resolve have not vanished completely.

Even the strategic counterpoints—that the war against Islamic terrorists will not end or that it is not possible to kill enough of them to make a difference—ignore the victory of the Cold War. There, the United States and its allies maneuvered and exploited advantages until they beat the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact collapsed.

While the United States’ current enemies are so-called non-state actors, they have no trouble with their identity and moral agency. Yet U.S. military leadership still has not told its young men and women, “It’s okay to kill the enemy.” Moreover, the military does not celebrate its victories. How many ticker-tape parades have there been for Medal of Honor recipients in this war? When individual warriors are adjudged to have killed the “wrong” target, they face conviction and imprisonment rather than being given the benefit of the doubt, as so many were given during World War II. It is no wonder that post-traumatic stress disorder and suicide levels are so high. Instead of praising its victors, the United States browbeats them about civilian casualty numbers. 5 How does this strengthen the U.S. military’s moral agency?

In August 2004, between the Battles of Fallujah I and II, during a conference at MacDill Air Force Base, a special forces officer from an Arab country said:

If you Americans want to win in Fallujah and Iraq, you need to call Al Jazeera and CNN, have them set up their cameras, then call out the insurgents to surrender from a surrounded Fallujah. If, in 24 hours, the insurgents do not come out, you then must make repetitive low-level bombing runs with your B-52s and flatten Fallujah. Then, and only then, the Iraqis will know they have been beaten. They do not yet know this.

At first, U.S. military officers were aghast at such a recommendation. Now, 13 years later, it seems this man might have been right. Edward N. Luttwak wrote of this in his seminal 1999 Foreign Affairs article:

An unpleasant truth often overlooked is that although war is a great evil, it does have a great virtue: it can resolve political conflicts and lead to peace. This can happen when all belligerents become exhausted or when one wins decisively. Either way the key is that the fighting must continue until a resolution is reached. War brings peace only after passing a culminating phase of violence. Hopes of military success must fade for accommodation to become more attractive than further combat. 6

Despite Luttwak’s article being a staple at U.S. military senior service schools, timidity seems to be the marching order among most flag and general officers today. This can be attributed to a false sense of moral superiority being bred into our senior leaders by repetitive exposure to civilian graduate schools, far too much legal oversight, and the mission creep that has polluted our warfighting capability since Operation Desert Storm.

Frantic to find ways to keep endstrengths at 1991 levels, all services started looking at new missions: nationbuilding; humanitarian assistance; foreign military training and assistance; and even hurricane relief. While U.S. forces can and have performed such missions admirably, they have done so at the expense of the art of killing.

Such squeamishness has many symptoms, not the least of which is putting infantry lieutenants in prison for allowing collateral damage to occur. 7 It would be impossible for Major Dick Winters of Band of Brothers fame to survive, much less thrive, in today’s military. This is sad and foreboding. Absent aggressive, free-thinking leaders at both ends of the spear, the U.S. military is doomed to failure.

Technology also creates a horrible environment for a Winters-like leader in today’s forces. Seemingly, every military action is caught on camera and later subjected to judgment in the clear vision of hindsight—always from the safe confines of a headquarters far removed from the battlefield. This insanity must end before the United States faces a peer competitor on a hot battlefield.

In addition to the overabundance of ill-trained lawyers in the force, leaders are giving too much credence to people and organizations (such as Amnesty International) with distorted views of how wars ought to be fought rather than how they truly are. For instance, the concept of proportionality under international law has nothing to do with making war a “fair fight” or using “minimum force.” Sadly, however, such human rights law language has crept into U.S. military standing rules of engagement (SROE), despite warnings from sage counsel such as international and operational law expert W. Hays Parks. 8

In the mid-1990s, a small cadre of combat-experienced officers began to militate against overly restrictive rules of engagement and tactical directives. They advocated that if U.S. military forces must fight in such environments these warriors should at least have the same protections that U.S. constitutional law provides police officers in the United States. This still has not happened. Sixteen years and thousands of U.S. military lives have been lost, and the military still is plagued with obtuse rules of engagement and soul-crushing investigations into every action.

The U.S. military needs to train its judge advocates to be competent in international law with a view toward bending it in favor of its forces. A great example is W. Hays Parks’ article that explains that farmers who make improvised explosive devices at night are direct participants in warfare and can be targeted at any time, wherever found, regardless of what they are doing or whether they are armed when found. 9 Despite this clear guidance from the doyen of international law (and a former U.S. Marine infantry company commander in Vietnam), most judge advocates choose to exercise their “power of no”—finding ways to hamper the killing of bad guys.

A U.S. Army special forces battalion commander solved this problem by sending his command judge advocate to live, work, and fight with one of the battalion’s operational detachments (ODAs) in downtown Baghdad. Three weeks later the judge advocate wanted to stay with the ODA to kill bad guys. When he returned to the battalion staff, he demonstrated that he learned the power of yes and sought ways to enhance the unit’s lethality and effectiveness.

While the United States may not be following the full-on nation-centric strategy of Alfred Thayer Mahan to fight terrorists today, it ought to use the military primarily to forward its national interests. And that ought not be a strange or unsavory concept to any U.S. warrior or citizen.

The military’s leadership has a responsibility to push back hard when told to do anything that would dilute the fundamental responsibility to win wars. For the past two decades, the U.S. military has put more effort into combating climate change and training to prevent sexual harassment than it has into training warriors to kill the enemy.

It is time for a shift away from the rudderless drift that has plagued the military since the end of the Cold War and Operation Desert Storm. Battle-hardened commanders who excel at killing too often are passed over for promotion in favor of those with multiple degrees from elite universities who self-select each other for advancement. Prayerfully, it will not take another Task Force Smith to set things right. 10

--

1. As an example, one Army Judge Advocate from the Center for Law and Military Operations told a 3rd Infantry Division audience, “Winning the counterinsurgency fight may mean our Soldiers get shot first before responding.” This is not the sole example of such thinking. At one point this same organization was touting a “shoot-to-wound” policy despite being shown the dangers and foolishness of such a tactic by the FBI Hostage Rescue Team and some of the best shooters from 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (Delta Force).

2. Toby Young, “If the Bombing of Hiroshima Was a Moral Obscenity, Blame Emperor Hirohito,” The Spectator, 15 August 2015, quoting Fraser from Quartered Safe Out Here. Fraser, in an argument with another philosopher, also stated, “By what right, then, do you say that the Allies should have been sacrificed to save the victims of Hiroshima? Because what you’re saying is that, while you’re not willing to give your life, Allied soldiers should have given theirs, mine for one, possibly.”
3. George MacDonald Fraser’s Obituary, The Telegraph, 03 January 2008.

4. President Truman, President Roosevelt, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill also did not flinch to firebomb enemy cities. While the bombing might be adjudged cruel or unnecessary in the comfort of hindsight, it is entirely possible that at least one of the authors would not be here had it not occurred, as his father was a Marine preparing for the invasion of Japan in August 1945. The*invasion*plan was assigned the cover*name*“Downfall” and consisted of two main*operations: “Olympic,” the preliminary assault on the southern island of Kyushu, which was slated for 1 December 1945, and “Coronet,” the subsequent landing on Honshu, which was scheduled for 1 March 1946. The estimated number of deaths and injuries to U.S. Soldiers and Marines was more than a million. The projections for Japanese losses were approximately four million.

5. For example, the first and second slides briefed to the Commander, International Security Assistance Force Afghanistan, are often CIVCAS (civilian casualties).

6. Edward Luttwak, “Give War a Chance,” Foreign Affairs, July/August 1999.

7. The hypocrisy of this is underscored by the number of collateral damage “victims” wrought by senior civilian and military leaders’ decisions to hit single high-value targets (HVTs) with Predator-borne Hellfire missiles and Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs).

8. Rather than the Law of Armed Conflict that is derived from International Humanitarian Law. Hays Parks, “Deadly Force Is Authorized,” U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, 127, no. 1 (January 2001), 32-37.

9. See W. Hays Parks, “Part IX of the ICRC ‘Direct Participation In Hostilities’ Study: No Mandate, No Expertise, and Legally Incorrect,” NYU Journal of International Law & Politics,*42, no. 769 (2010).

10. Task Force Smith was the name of the Army 1st Battalion 21st Infantry Regiment’s ill-fated attempt to gain a foothold in Osan, Korea, in July 1950 at the start of the Korean Conflict. Its disastrous ending led to the Army leadership catchphrase “No More Task Force Smiths” to counter the drawdown after Operation Desert Storm. The phrase is ridiculed by many frontline troops who suffer the consequences of slogans over substance.

Lieutenant Colonel Bolgiano is a former paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division. He served in Operation Desert Storm and as Command Judge Advocate for Special Operations Command Central in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Lieutenant Colonel Taylor is a former paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division. He served as Command Judge Advocate for 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment–Delta (Delta Force) and Task Force Bowie in Afghanistan.*
 

Lone_Hawk

Resident Spook
Proceedings has always been an outstanding platform for military thought. This should be sent to the President
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
As I have ranted, technology has enhanced the power of the Weak geometrically, while PC has castrated the power of the Strong. We are in for chaotic times. And the power of PC is so incredible, I see no hope of change.
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
One strong point of the article although I am not sure the author knows it.: If the Jihad has no land area that they can call the caliphate, they are gravely weakened.

Weak point: Killing a bunch there may just energize Jihadists everywhere else for revenge.
 

dogmanan

Inactive
I feel the only way to get rid of the terrorist is to find and kill them all, every man women and child and not stop until we find and kill them all.
 

WFK

Senior Something
One strong point of the article although I am not sure the author knows it.: If the Jihad has no land area that they can call the caliphate, they are gravely weakened.

Weak point: Killing a bunch there may just energize Jihadists everywhere else for revenge.[/QUOTE]

That is what justifies doing nothing!!!
 

MtnGal

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Problem today, who is the enemy?

Bush and O created and armed many enemies. They wouldn't allow our troops an advantage over them. How many of our troops were killed because of inadequate supplies or arms.

We have plenty of those created enemies right here that O happily brought in and we can't get rid of them. They are as protected here as in the combat field.

So what do we do?
 

Sacajawea

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I couldn't find a single thing I objected to in this article. As it happens, my last post before this one (on another board) was stating pretty much the same thing. Think I'll go back and share it.

Where did the idea come from that one could fight a war and not kill people? (The two things are mutually exclusive, aren't they?)
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
I couldn't find a single thing I objected to in this article. As it happens, my last post before this one (on another board) was stating pretty much the same thing. Think I'll go back and share it.

Where did the idea come from that one could fight a war and not kill people? (The two things are mutually exclusive, aren't they?)

I think a huge part of the problem (besides political correctness and the entire liberal mindset that things should be "fair", and reality can be changed) is that the current "enemy" (ie: Muslims) seem to be "off the charts" in their willingness to sacrifice their OWN women and children in order to try to protect their fighters.

Sure, it wasn't uncommon for soldiers to use ENEMY non-combatants as hostages/human shields, under the assumption that those they were fighting wouldn't be willing to kill their own. And there also was the ancient "chivalry" thing, which at least in Western cultures still was still a potent effect in most men's brains. (in fact, this is STILL one of the problems with allowing women in the military, especially in fighting positions... most men *still* have that inborn/ingrained sense that women are to be protected, and in a war situation, that could get a bunch of people killed unnecessarily)

So, we have a military which has lawyers on the payroll who are saying "you can't drop the bomb on that group of fighters planning an attack, because they're meeting in a school room surrounded by kids"... when the REAL problem is that the enemy has fighters who see NOTHING WRONG WITH *meeting in a school room surrounded by kids* in order to try to protect their own sorry asses!

No, we should never WANT to "descend to their level" of barbarity, but in war, that is often a necessity. War SUCKS!

Summerthyme
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
There was a thoughtful article published some time back titled to the effect, "Can We Kill 1.5 Billion People?" - that being the approximate number of Islamics in the world. I posted it here, IIRC.

And BTW, the answer was "yes we can."

But the necessary precursor is WILL.
 

vestige

Deceased
No, we should never WANT to "descend to their level" of barbarity, but in war, that is often a necessity. War SUCKS!

Summerthyme

Anyone recall the children riding up on bicycles (having frames stuffed with high explosives) in Vietnam?
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
One way to win is to arm the Christian sectors with some old outdated military bolt rifles and enough ammo to go 300+ rounds for each rifle given.
Lets say some government was sitting on a million WWII German Mauser's they could give them a go over and make ammo of ordinal design specs, it would turn the table against the muslim heathens.
Now the government in such a country may not like this as it runs counter to political power and they would be forced to accept it and play nice or face the wrath of their own people.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Anyone recall the children riding up on bicycles (having frames stuffed with high explosives) in Vietnam?

Yep. And lot of other horrible things, as well...

IIRC, the US lost too many men to stuff like this before they started understanding that the NC followed different "rules" than Americans/westerners do. Because the Americans simply couldn't fathom sending one of their own kids, or even a neighborhood urchin, to a certain death in order to kill a few of the enemy.

Summerthyme
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
American soldiers are suckers for kids. And dogs.

I have taken advantage of this for intel purposes in various war games using borrowed kids ...
 

Texican

Live Free & Die Free.... God Freedom Country....
Very simple....

Kill enough of the enemy and they will cease to be....

Worked in WW1 & WW2 and drew a stalemate in Korea....

In Vietnam, the military was not allowed to defeat the enemy since congress interfered....

The wars in the ME have too many "Rules of Engagement"....

The only rule of engagement is to kill the enemy....

There may be civilian causalities, but that happens in war.... If these cowards do not want to be a casualty, then they need to fight the enemy....

So to win, wars are won by killing the enemy, destroying his lands, devastating his lines of support and destroying the countries that the enemies support is being supplied from....

Texican....
An American Christian....
Live Free and Die Free....
 

Sacajawea

Has No Life - Lives on TB
It seems to me, this "idea" is why we find ourselves between a rock & hard place about deciding to do something re: Li'l Kim. Seoul is used to counter the idea that military action is feasible; the POTENTIAL number of deaths is unacceptably too high... and the logistics of getting that many people to evacuate - or secure them - seems to difficult. (Difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't try.)

Meanwhile, the media is reinforcing the idea (introduced by the Chinese who claimed neutrality if NK strikes first) that the US MUST take casualties before there will be general approval (from whom, exactly??) in retaliation. Since WHEN?
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
It seems to me, this "idea" is why we find ourselves between a rock & hard place about deciding to do something re: Li'l Kim. Seoul is used to counter the idea that military action is feasible; the POTENTIAL number of deaths is unacceptably too high... and the logistics of getting that many people to evacuate - or secure them - seems to difficult. (Difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't try.)

Meanwhile, the media is reinforcing the idea (introduced by the Chinese who claimed neutrality if NK strikes first) that the US MUST take casualties before there will be general approval (from whom, exactly??) in retaliation. Since WHEN?

Moving 12-plus million people to no specific place isn't smart OR doable. PLUS what it does is tell the world what we're going to do, nd INSURES that the civilian losses will be MAXIMIZED s the NK arty will target the people on the roads etc....


Unfortunately, we actually MUST simply nut-up, accept that we will become either total international pariahs or saviors, expect to cause the response casualties, and plan on the wave of suicides from the non-Warriors we task with doing the job. Because there WILL be a wave as the non-Warriors see what happens and they blame themselves rather than Kim. The Warriors will just get permanent endowed chairs at their local VFW/Legion/PLAV watering holes.
 
I think a huge part of the problem (besides political correctness and the entire liberal mindset that things should be "fair", and reality can be changed) is that the current "enemy" (ie: Muslims) seem to be "off the charts" in their willingness to sacrifice their OWN women and children in order to try to protect their fighters.

Sure, it wasn't uncommon for soldiers to use ENEMY non-combatants as hostages/human shields, under the assumption that those they were fighting wouldn't be willing to kill their own. And there also was the ancient "chivalry" thing, which at least in Western cultures still was still a potent effect in most men's brains. (in fact, this is STILL one of the problems with allowing women in the military, especially in fighting positions... most men *still* have that inborn/ingrained sense that women are to be protected, and in a war situation, that could get a bunch of people killed unnecessarily)

So, we have a military which has lawyers on the payroll who are saying "you can't drop the bomb on that group of fighters planning an attack, because they're meeting in a school room surrounded by kids"... when the REAL problem is that the enemy has fighters who see NOTHING WRONG WITH *meeting in a school room surrounded by kids* in order to try to protect their own sorry asses!

No, we should never WANT to "descend to their level" of barbarity, but in war, that is often a necessity. War SUCKS!

Summerthyme

Good summary, Summerthyme.

But, the CORE of the problem is that the U.S. has not fought a WAR since WWII.

EVERY "war" SINCE WWII has been conducted WITHOUT an official declaration of war BY CONGRESS, as demanded in the U.S. Constitution.

Every.

Last.

One.

If Congress were to declare war, as per the U.S. Constitution, I will PROMISE you that NONE of this nonsense would be going on for long, before the citizenry would be storming the gates of Capitol Hill with pitchforks and torches.

By declaring war as proscribed in the U.S. Constitution, it puts EVERYONE - the ENTIRE political class, the MSM, the entertainment industry, citizens, Wall Street, corporate America, small-business America, farmers, tradesfolks, doctors, lawyers, children, retirees and housewives/husbands ON NOTICE - EACH has multiple "skins" in the declared war "game" - economic, professional, personal, patriotic/cultural. It keeps EVERYONE'S attention focused upon the goal of WINNING the war, ASAP - so they can recline back into their FORMALLY comfortable, convenient, "normal" lifestyles and "pursuits of happiness."

Or, not.

Just that simple.

REALLY.


intothegoodnight
 
Last edited:
Problem today, who is the enemy?

In today's proxy "wars," fought through the front-line efforts of mercs and other "bought-and-sponsored" groups, this is a legitimate question - especially when the enemy is defined in non-sovereign terms - meaning, the combatants are not the official recognized military agents of a recognized sovereign state - some combatant elements may, in fact, consist of opponents who are a MIX of multiple nation-state citizens - NONE of which have the "official" authorization or approval of their home-country sovereign governments to participate in non-sovereign military engagements.

This is a sticky point, legally.

Factually, intel will show what sovereign entities are supplying the vital logistics, funding, training, weaponry, etc. for a non-sovereign fighting force - even though those sovereign entities may deny any knowledge or direct involvement/knowledge - the trail back to them is clear and decisive.

And, this is where things get sticky - does Congress declare war on, for example, Russia, because Congress KNOWS that Russia is the "hidden hand" behind a bunch of yahoo mercs tearing things up in - say - Ukraine, who is one of our "pending" NATO allies?

YMMV.


intothegoodnight
 
Last edited:

Sacajawea

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yeah, Night Driver - I did realize that the scale of evacuation is a logistical nightmare and that it would be an obvious signal. It's the flaw in that simple suggestion, for sure.

Further thought on my part, leads me to think that the best plan is going to involve a combination of efforts - including accepting that not everyone will evacuate and there ARE going to be casualties. With massive SK defenses ready to go, overwhelming US force from the outset - ideally (which never happens) with the element of surprise, and people self-selecting to go away in family groups to a selected location. Bunkers would be handy - but it's likely too late now.

War is the furthest thing from "convenient" for people to accept in their lives.
 
It seems to me, this "idea" is why we find ourselves between a rock & hard place about deciding to do something re: Li'l Kim. Seoul is used to counter the idea that military action is feasible; the POTENTIAL number of deaths is unacceptably too high... and the logistics of getting that many people to evacuate - or secure them - seems to difficult. (Difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't try.)

Meanwhile, the media is reinforcing the idea (introduced by the Chinese who claimed neutrality if NK strikes first) that the US MUST take casualties before there will be general approval (from whom, exactly??) in retaliation. Since WHEN?

Since the latest deep-state allegations are that "they" (deep state elements not specifically identified - yet) have some level of "ownership" in NK, and have for several decades, it may be these same deep state elements that are putting out the MSM messaging regarding WHY we SHOULDN'T attack the NORKS - hard to tell in today's world of skilled purposeful obfuscation.

Think of the deep state as a "fifth (hidden hand) column," when reviewing the history of war for the last century or so, and some of the **official** event narratives and decisions that make one go, "hmmmm . . . suddenly begin, upon further ponderment, to make "sense" when viewed through these different "colored" optics.

YMMV.


intothegoodnight
 
Last edited:

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I couldn't find a single thing I objected to in this article. As it happens, my last post before this one (on another board) was stating pretty much the same thing. Think I'll go back and share it.

Where did the idea come from that one could fight a war and not kill people? (The two things are mutually exclusive, aren't they?)

Such an argument has the same validity as thinking one can pick-up a completely hot, wet, dog turd, from the "clean" end. Ain't possible...

GBY&Y's

OldARcher
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
One strong point of the article although I am not sure the author knows it.: If the Jihad has no land area that they can call the caliphate, they are gravely weakened.

Weak point: Killing a bunch there may just energize Jihadists everywhere else for revenge.[/QUOTE]

That is what justifies doing nothing!!!

Nope. It just means that war is not won when we have obliterated whatever in the ME. The Ayatollah said it; We can never be defeated because we have the martyrs.

And he is right. Obliterate whatever and they will come up like mushrooms. Better figure on a way to handle that.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Nope. It just means that war is not won when we have obliterated whatever in the ME. The Ayatollah said it; We can never be defeated because we have the martyrs.

And he is right. Obliterate whatever and they will come up like mushrooms. Better figure on a way to handle that.

Kitchener's handling of the Mahdi's forces at Omdurman is the model; anvil and hammer. The thing is they aren't as cooperative these days. You have to have the will to go in and dig them out, if necessary one at a time like the Nazis Werewolves.
 

cooter

cantankerous old coot
hmm,

and they will come up like mushrooms. Better figure on a way to handle that.

a pre- emergent chemical like preen comes to mind, wonder what the human equivalent would be, :groucho:
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
And he is right. Obliterate whatever and they will come up like mushrooms. Better figure on a way to handle that.

Didn't seem to work too well for passenger pigeons ... just have to be thorough enough.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
An ideal principle in Fourth-Generation warfare, as mentioned by William Lind...

Is to either kill ALL of an enemy, or NONE of them. Ridicule can be more effective than killing opponents, when either they're not fanatic enemies, or are dependent upon a good reputation with other, more neutral people.

That said, I have long thought that Islamic terrorism toward the U.S. will only become trivial when this has come to be:

When one Muslim tells another Muslim that he is considering an act of violent terrorism against Americans, and the second Muslim kills the first Muslim on the spot, he is so terrified of the certain horrific Hades guaranteed to come down on all their heads from immmediate unlimited U.S. military vengeance.
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
And he is right. Obliterate whatever and they will come up like mushrooms. Better figure on a way to handle that.

Didn't seem to work too well for passenger pigeons ... just have to be thorough enough.

They disappeared because they lost their habitat. Unfortunately, the habitat of Jihad is all around us. I know of only one way, Achmed goes Jihad and everyone of his relatives is promptly deported with just their clothes on, no money, no luggage, nothing. And left on the tarmac of some dead camel country. They will have lost their habitat.

Do that twice and I guarantee no more creative ideas except for the true loner.

As for the loner, we have to show him that what he is doing is useless.

Right now though, just 10 funded Jihadists could paralyze this country to the point where you would afraid to leave your house. Give it some thought and you will understand that tech has increased their power geometrically.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Hummm....

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/11...ponse-to-cant-kill-enough-to-win-think-again/

Best Defense

Moral Repugnance: A Response to ‘Can’t Kill Enough to Win? Think Again’

There are multiple ways to describe retired Lt. Cols. David Bolgiano and John Taylor’s article in the December issue of Proceedings.

By Thomas E. Ricks | December 11, 2017, 10:10 AM

By Lt. Col. Dan Sukman, U.S. Army
Best Defense office of military ethics

There are multiple ways to describe retired Lt. Cols. David Bolgiano and John Taylor’s article in the December issue of Proceedings magazine. Rather than call a spade a spade in an ad hominem-type attack, it is worth the time to deconstruct their argument bit by bit, and then to offer an alternative position.

The first argument put forward is that operational commanders and their respective judge advocate general (JAG) advisors have hampered the fighting force with overly restrictive rules of engagement. Those interested in ROE development should look to the SROE (unclassified and publicly released, reprinted in pages 97-100 of the 2017 Operational Law Handbook.) Rules of engagement are the responsibility of commanders, and the staff leads are the J3 and J5. Staff judge advocates merely assist. If the JAG is tasked to do the operation’s officer’s job, then the onus falls on the commander. Indeed, the authors’ assertion that “many commanders and their ‘operational law’ judge advocates have neutered U.S. military forces with far too restrictive rules of engagement and investigations” is a strange one to make. This is directly at odds with the personal and professional interests of any commander, since he or she presumably desires to accomplish missions, protect subordinates, and yes, to earn a spot on a promotion list.

Generally, when a lawyer does not offer evidence, or details thereof, it is because of a privilege of confidentiality or, much more often, because it is not favorable to his or her argument. In their article, the retired judge advocates make many incendiary claims about the competence and motives of commanders and judge advocates, but offer almost nothing in the way of evidence. The authors take cheap shots at military lawyers, referring to an “overabundance of ill-trained lawyers.” This easily falls into the category of an ad hominem attack and wholesale slander of judge advocates, which naturally the authors provide no evidence for with the exception of a personal anecdote within one footnote.

The logical fallacy the authors fall into is the comparison of apples and oranges. When the authors point to historical examples, they use the U.S. Civil War, World War II, and the 1990 Gulf War as comparisons to fighting terrorists. It’s an awful comparison with the obvious problem of comparing conflicts where we fought organized nations’ militaries against the current conflict against nonstate actors. One would imagine that two retired lieutenant colonels would see this flaw in their thinking.

Further false comparisons continue throughout the article. Although the authors are correct in noting that the United States bombed civilians throughout World War II, they fail to mention the lack of precision-guided munitions available in the 1940s. The impacts of modern technology had changed the conduct (but not the nature) of war. The advent of precision-guided munitions allows the United States to minimize the risk to civilians and other collateral damage. The irony in their argument is that the strategic bombing of civilians in an attempt to destroy morale, whether it was the Germans over London, or allies over Japan and Germany (Tokyo, Dresden, etc.) had little effect, and in fact raised the morale of each respective nation.

The authors then attribute high rates of PTSD and suicide to a lack of victory parades. It is a bizarre claim with zero evidence. Had the authors provided an endnote or reference to a study backing this up, then there may have been some substance to the claim. The authors do not provide any evidence. Moreover, the substance of their endnotes are a series of personal war stories. How they come to attribute PTSD to a lack of victory parades is anyone’s guess; perhaps it was by clicking around on the internet until they found a link, any link that supported their theory. Perhaps an alien gave it them while they were riding in their spaceship. The latter seems to be just as likely as the former.

When the authors mention Edward Luttwak’s 1999 essay “Give War a Chance,” one senses that neither author took a moment to reflect on the implications of the essay. Luttwak offers a Hobbesian world where, taken to its logical conclusion, nations would be part of a never-ending global conflict lasting for centuries until one nation prevailed above all others.

The claims of the authors become more ridiculous as the article progresses. To back up the claim that the United States should kill more people to win the war on terrorism, Bolgiano and Taylor claim that the United States “maneuvered and exploited advantages until they beat the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact collapsed.” There are competing theories as to why the Soviet Union collapsed, from the flawed and unsustainable economic system to the unsupportable war in Afghanistan (where the Soviets killed Afghans by the thousands), to the enlightenment of Gorbachev. While U.S. policies may have expedited the fall of the Soviet empire, to simply credit maneuver and exploiting advantages is a unique position.

Another bizarre claim is the authors’ insistence that following the Cold War, the armed services began to look for new missions to justify force structure. They use examples such as foreign humanitarian assistance and domestic hurricane relief. Naturally, in complete contrast to Bolgiano and Taylor’s claims, these types of missions have been a staple of the U.S. military. One can look to the Berlin Airlift, and yes, Operation Hajji Baba, an airlift of stranded Hajj pilgrims in 1952. A simple look at what operations authorize the wearing of the Humanitarian Service Medal provides a starting point in developing knowledge on the history of U.S. military operations outside major combat.

The authors assert that the military spends more time fighting climate change and sexual harassment than training to fight and win wars. This is another garbage statement that one senses comes from the author’s political views rather than a view from reality. A simple check of any command’s training schedule, from the platoon to a combatant command would checkmate the authors’ position. Naturally, Bolgiano and Taylor provide no evidence, in the form of training schedules, policy letters, or institutional strategies to back up their claim. The contrary evidence lies in actual published guidance such as the Army chief of staff’s 2017 priorities, which places readiness at the top of the list, or the secretary of the Navy’s priorities, which emphasize readiness, lethality, and modernization.

The authors’ insistence that the way to win wars is through attrition lacks an intellectual foundation. It is understood that conflict is about achieving a political aim. The well-known strategic theorist Sun Tzu wrote that the ultimate skill for a general is to win without fighting. Moreover, another well-known theorist named Clausewitz wrote, “As War is no act of blind passion, but is dominated by the political object, therefore the value of that object determines the measure of the sacrifices by which it is to be purchased.” People who are serious about warfare understand that war, although characterized by violence, is about attaining a political objective. Nations can achieve this through ways and means other than attrition.

Killing the enemy is certainly a means to an end. However, America has seen the results of Bolgiano and Taylor’s worldview played out on the battlefields of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Names such as Calley, Green, and Bales represent the worst of what our nation stands for. Wanton killing of a perceived enemy only serves to weaken the strategic and operational position of the United States. It erodes the support of domestic and foreign populations and the governments that represent them.

Wars are not lost because a nation does not kill enough people, or kill enough of the enemy. Wars are lost when nations find themselves in strategic drift. Wars are lost when nations send men and women into combat without any clue to why they are sending them there. Without any clear strategic objectives or end state, nations will fight endless wars with nothing to show for it. Finally, we lose wars when we lose our moral compass. The instant we become a monster to slay a monster, war is lost.

Lt. Col. Daniel Sukman is a strategist in the U.S. Army, and a member of the Military Writers Guild. Over the course of his career, he has served with the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), U.S. European Command, and the Army Capabilities Integration Center (ARCIC). He currently works for the Joint Enabling Capabilities Command in Norfolk, Virginia. His combat experience includes multiple combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. Follow him on Twitter: @dansukman. This article represents the author’s views, and not necessarily the views of the U.S. Army or Department of Defense.

Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military from 1991 to 2008 for the Wall Street Journal and then the Washington Post. He can be reached at ricksblogcomment@gmail.com.
 

Vtshooter

Veteran Member
The authors of the "Rebuttal" spend much time pissing on the authors of the op, but without offering much in the way of alternatives. Maybe they're members of the Give-The-Terrorists-A-Job-And-They'll-Stop-Killing crowd. Would you like fries with that?

Personally, I'm all for killing every damn one of them, and anyone likely to retaliate for the killing. I also like that idea about deporting their families if they're in the states. Send them someplace nice, like Somalia. Or Zimbabwe.

I think total annihilation, or the fear of a death that doesn't count as a ticket to paradise, is the only answer.
 

Luddite

Veteran Member
Personally, I'm all for killing every damn one of them, and anyone likely to retaliate for the killing. I also like that idea about deporting their families if they're in the states. Send them someplace nice, like Somalia. Or Zimbabwe.

I wouldn't lose one second sleep over dead terrorists. The problem for me is resolving the DOMESTIC ASPECT. The arguments this morning on teevee whether to charge the bangladeshi that blew his junk off as an enemy combatant. Even talk of deporting whole worthless family.

I can't help ask what would have happened if Hitlery was stinkin up the White House now. What real or imagined offences could have got some Constitutional Patriots whole clan a one way ticket to somewhere-else-istan? Whenever and wherever we look for solutions, we need to look long-term. I do know this: What we've done since 2001 ain't working. IMO, the blame is in the 5 sided building in DC.
 

Nowski

Let's Go Brandon!
Excellent article, and great comments on this thread.

As a very pessimistic doomer, I see things from a different
perspective than many on this board. I look for doom
in everything, nothing but bad.

Three very important IMHO reasons, why we will never be
rid of the Islamic jihadis.

1. The FUSA is extremely divided. It has never been this divided
during its 241 year history. Not even during The Civil War,
was it this divided. This division, was the primary reason that
the bluegum POTUS was placed into power, to divide the FUSA,
and he was very successful.

2. The Crusaders failed to defeat the jihadis.
Sure they were defeated in Europe, but they continued
to control vast areas of the Middle East.
Now the jihadis are back in Europe, and this time they
will not be defeated, and they know that the victory
is theirs.

3. Christianity as a religion, is fading in most areas,
and Islam is growing.

Jihadis and Islam - 3
FUSA and Christianity - 0

It is going just as it was foretold, 2000 years ago,
and we just happen to be living during the
time as it was foretold.

Please be safe everyone, and please arm up.

Regards to all deplorables.
Nowski
 
From Housecarl's above posted article:

Moral Repugnance: A Response to ‘Can’t Kill Enough to Win? Think Again’

JAGs just "doing their patriotic best out on the battlefield."

You KNOW that you cannot win a war without the JAG corps telling you HOW . . . and WHEN it is won . . . (hint: they listen for the opponent to cry, "UNCLE.")

Likely the same bunch that complained when the woodland-dressed Colonial Army hid behind various barriers while picking off their brightly dressed British opponents arrayed in an open field.

NO MISS.

British opponents complained that the Colonial Army was "cheating" and not fighting the way men assembled for battle were supposed to fight.

What part of the word "WAR" do the JAG corps, et al, fail to understand?

Is this sort of thinking the result of too many years of UN directed "police actions/engagements" by the U.S. military, versus wars that are constitutionally declared by the U.S. Congress?

Enough said.


intothegoodnight
 
Last edited:

Luddite

Veteran Member
What part of the word "WAR" do the JAG corps, et al, fail to understand?

Is this sort of thinking the result of too many years of UN directed "police actions/engagements" by the U.S. military, versus wars that are constitutionally declared by the U.S. Congress?

Enough said.


intothegoodnight


IMO, war has become a business, with cost benefit analyses, marketing ploys, and long-range plans. Quick, dirty and OVER would be much better for everyone but the MIC.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
If the Nazi's have no land area that they can call the Leibenstraum, they are gravely weakened.

Weak point: Killing a bunch there may just energize Nazi's everywhere else for revenge.
Re-written in a 1940's timeframe... Yes, it's a risk. It always has been. It always is. It always will be.
 

Flippper

Time Traveler
As I have ranted, technology has enhanced the power of the Weak geometrically, while PC has castrated the power of the Strong. We are in for chaotic times. And the power of PC is so incredible, I see no hope of change.

Change starts with you. I refuse to be PC and have for a very long time, I don't use words that I know will hurt someone, but facts are facts, and words don't change that; folks need to quit playing by the left's rule book.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Originally Posted by Troke
As I have ranted, technology has enhanced the power of the Weak geometrically, while PC has castrated the power of the Strong. We are in for chaotic times. And the power of PC is so incredible, I see no hope of change.

Change starts with you. I refuse to be PC and have for a very long time, I don't use words that I know will hurt someone, but facts are facts, and words don't change that; folks need to quit playing by the left's rule book.

"PC" goes out the window when it opens the door to Darwin, currently the door is barely cracked but a light breeze can change that in a blink of an eye....
 
Top