SCI Can lab-grown human brains think?

Melodi

Disaster Cat
https://theweek.com/articles/800709/labgrown-human-brains-think

Can lab-grown human brains think?

Jennifer Johnson
A brain. wigglestick/iStock
November 27, 2018


It has been 200 years since Mary Shelley's Frankenstein was published, and while scientists still haven't figured out how to create a walking, talking complex life in a lab, they may be getting closer.

A growing number of researchers are mastering the creation of organoids: simplified, miniature versions of real human organs. These structures aren't being harvested to make Frankenstein's monster. Instead, they're helping develop new drugs, and they are forcing the medical establishment to seriously consider the ethics of lab-grown life.

Developing pharmaceuticals is typically an expensive and risky process. Roughly 90 percent of drugs that make it to human trials are never submitted to the FDA for approval because they're found to be unsafe or ineffective. Most estimates place the cost of developing a new drug at somewhere around $3 billion. Organoids, which are grown from human stem cells, may be able to remove some of the guesswork in patient trials.

"Researchers have gotten really good at curing diseases in mice, but unfortunately animal studies don't really translate to human bodies," says Kevin Costa, chief scientific officer at Novoheart, a stem cell biotechnology firm known for creating heart organoids. "There are differences in how cardiac muscle cells behave in rodents versus primates and humans. Consequently, one of the main reasons that drugs fail in clinical trials is because of cardiotoxicity, problems related to heart function."

Novoheart's miniature beating hearts can be designed to reflect healthy heart function, or they can reproduce the genetic abnormalities of a patient who originally donated their cells. These heart models can then be used by pharmaceutical companies in preclinical testing to determine the safety and efficacy of a potential treatment. While the organoids aren't nearly as complex as a full-sized heart, the idea is to utilize human-specific models when forecasting drug effects.



Understanding potential side effects is also key when developing a new drug. Side effects are rarely confined to a single organ system, which is why Costa believes connecting organoids is the logical next step. Late last year, Novoheart also filed a patent for a modular "bioreactor" that scientists can use to monitor multiple organoids at once. This means a number of different mini organs — from kidneys to brains — could be linked up to simulate drug reactions that occur throughout the body.

"Heart tissue doesn't behave in isolation," he explains. "There are interactions at the systems level between the heart and other organs in the body, and if we ultimately want to realize the potential for replacing animal studies with human-based organoids, then we need to start to create systems comprised of different organ types."

But things begin to stray into Frankenstein territory when scientists talk about designing realistic miniature brains. Earlier this month, researchers from the University of California, San Diego revealed they had grown organoids that spontaneously produced human-like brain waves for the first time. The electrical patterns observed by biologist Alysson Muotri and his team resembled those of infants born at 25 to 39 weeks' gestation.

There are important differences between these lab-grown brains and their real-life counterparts. First of all, they don't yet contain all of the cell types found in the cerebral cortex, which is the part of the brain responsible for cognition and awareness. Second, they don't have connections to other brain regions. But the very existence of electrical waves in these organoids raises uncomfortable questions about whether they could develop consciousness.

"Right now, you can grow organoids for over a year, but it's difficult to get them to the point where their size and capacity matches the real human brain," says Insoo Hyun, a professor of bioethics and philosophy at Case Western Reserve University. "As you meet short-term research goals, such as maintenance and growth, and attain a full complement of cell types, you're potentially getting closer to having conscious brains in a dish."

The medical establishment isn't currently trying to create consciousness, but these new brain organoids could effectively be drawing a roadmap for doing just that. According to Hyun, international stem cell research guidelines don't presently require close scrutiny of brain organoid work. "If you're making something that looks like an embryo model, then it needs to be reviewed," he explains. "But if you're using brain organoids to do drug screenings, it flies under the radar."

In other words, scientists may want to proceed with caution. In September, Hyun and a team of scientists from Harvard, Stanford, and MIT launched a study to identify ethical issues in the emerging field of brain bioengineering. The Brainstorm Project is designed to be the first step in building a philosophical framework that will guide regulations and policies around brain organoids. "This is such a new field that we want to map out the terrain of what is permissible and identify whether there are things we wouldn't want people to do with organoids," Hyun says.

Biologically speaking, we still have a way to go before we can make conscious brains in the lab. In a way, that's a relief. But the development of complex human tissue is no longer a thing of science fiction — it is fast becoming a real-life ethical minefield.


® 2018 The Week Publications Inc., All rights reserved.
 

Haybails

When In Doubt, Throttle Out!
This reads like a sci-fi movie . . . imagine:

Scene opens: struggling ill humans in a bleak future.
Movie progresses: ill humans battle their way out of some compound which they thought was reality . . . only to find . . .
Surprise reveal: that they were created as test subject humans and after they're tests were completed, they were relegated to some "holding area" - outside of which is . . . current reality.

Sort of like the Ewen McGregor movie "The Island".


HB
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
It is EXACTLY like science fiction and great fodder for my next Atlantis novel but in real life, I find this idea scary as heck.
 

NoMoreLibs

Kill Commie's, Every Single One Of Them!
Can they grow them to full size and implant them into members of CONgress? The current members are missing their's.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
It is EXACTLY like science fiction and great fodder for my next Atlantis novel but in real life, I find this idea scary as heck.

As long as the brains aren't as smart as AI, we should be ok.
On the other hand, if someone integrates AI with an organic brain, we might REALLY be screwed.

:strs::hof:
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
As long as the brains aren't as smart as AI, we should be ok.
On the other hand, if someone integrates AI with an organic brain, we might REALLY be screwed.

:strs::hof:

Yeah but think of the ethical and even dare I say "moral" implications of creating tiny human brains with brainwaves nearly identical to a human fetus as late as 40 weeks!

Right now this isn't a great concern as the science around all this is still pretty new, but this combined with the "discovery" a couple of weeks ago that other "organoids" intended to be hearts, kidneys etc were "going rogue" and growing brain cells shows that things are more complicated than was originally thought.

It also brings to mind great/bad old movies like "The Blob"...even if for now on a very tiny scale...

For some reason, tiny human brains with brain waves give me more of the creep than well-tuned and somewhat intelligent robots.
 

naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
This is the point where the the building should be be turned down and the scientists Hillaried. Some lines ahould.not.be crossed!
 

Faroe

Un-spun
Yeah but think of the ethical and even dare I say "moral" implications of creating tiny human brains with brainwaves nearly identical to a human fetus as late as 40 weeks!

Right now this isn't a great concern as the science around all this is still pretty new, but this combined with the "discovery" a couple of weeks ago that other "organoids" intended to be hearts, kidneys etc were "going rogue" and growing brain cells shows that things are more complicated than was originally thought.

It also brings to mind great/bad old movies like "The Blob"...even if for now on a very tiny scale...

For some reason, tiny human brains with brain waves give me more of the creep than well-tuned and somewhat intelligent robots.

Well, if anyone gets suddenly scared, the whole mess will probably be shoved into the autoclave, and no one will be worrying about the ethical implications while they are still wigged-out, and shaking in fear. If the engineered brains are seen as a threat, it's war...and all is *fair,* created or not. I'm not seeing any rights here, we are still looking at a bunch of cells, in a vat, on life support.

Like it or not, people make up morality as they go. Tossing out unwanted organs won't be a big deal. The problem will be if some forgotten AI-brain on the back shelf (maybe housed next to the 3-d printer, and all the lab techs are gone for a week on Spring Brake), and ends up getting to self-sufficiency before anyone notices it.
 
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TerryK

TB Fanatic
But they do admit brainwaves, just like a fetus; which was unexpected and creepy time...do unborn babies think?....

Sorry Melodi, you are equating alternating electrical waves or cyclic oscillation, produced naturally by neural tissue with thinking.
What enables "thinking" is messages passed to and between different areas of the brain.
Rats have brain waves. Actually all living animals with brains have brain waves.
Neurons have a natural electrical difference in potential between the inner and outer parts of a neuron. That potential is maintained by a chemical ion pump. When you put enough neurons together they will begin spontaneously firing. Add a few thousand more and the firing tends to settle into a regular rhythm.

It is much more complicated, but having regular electric oscillations does not necessarily equate to thinking.
The heart has regular electric oscillation. It isn't thinking. It's a natural organic rhythm that is also affected by chemical and electrical signals from other parts of the body. It's not thinking.
 

sierra don

Veteran Member
youngfrankenstein-773910.jpg
 

Faroe

Un-spun
Sorry Melodi, you are equating alternating electrical waves or cyclic oscillation, produced naturally by neural tissue with thinking.
What enables "thinking" is messages passed to and between different areas of the brain.
Rats have brain waves. Actually all living animals with brains have brain waves.
Neurons have a natural electrical difference in potential between the inner and outer parts of a neuron. That potential is maintained by a chemical ion pump. When you put enough neurons together they will begin spontaneously firing. Add a few thousand more and the firing tends to settle into a regular rhythm.

It is much more complicated, but having regular electric oscillations does not necessarily equate to thinking.
The heart has regular electric oscillation. It isn't thinking. It's a natural organic rhythm that is also affected by chemical and electrical signals from other parts of the body. It's not thinking.

But, Ocotpuses (Octopi??) don't have central brains, and they are SMART (creepy too). Possibly smarter than Corvids and parrots, and those birds rival chimps. Chimps can converse meaningfully in sign language.

Consciousness is yet....indefinable.

Our problem is that we deny consciousness and intelligence in everything else, seeing ourselves as (almost by definition) unique on Earth, and possibly the Cosmos. Since we won't see it elsewhere, we get upset by a lab grown bit of brain matter that has human DNA. The freakish idea that it might be thinking, and if so, WHAT to do with it, is not our biggest problem.

Ok, everyone here will have strongly held positions about why I'm wrong, so I'm just going to Duck and Cover, but I said it.
...and, I think it's the truth. YMMV
Cheers, and peace.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
There are plenty of organically grown brains that do not think. If they DON'T, whether they CAN or not is hardly relevant. :D
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
But, Ocotpuses (Octopi??) don't have central brains, and they are SMART (creepy too). Possibly smarter than Corvids and parrots, and those birds rival chimps. Chimps can converse meaningfully in sign language.

Consciousness is yet....indefinable.

Our problem is that we deny consciousness and intelligence in everything else, seeing ourselves as (almost by definition) unique on Earth, and possibly the Cosmos. Since we won't see it elsewhere, we get upset by a lab grown bit of brain matter that has human DNA. The freakish idea that it might be thinking, and if so, WHAT to do with it, is not our biggest problem.

Ok, everyone here will have strongly held positions about why I'm wrong, so I'm just going to Duck and Cover, but I said it.
...and, I think it's the truth. YMMV
Cheers, and peace.

Good post. It reminds me of the story of the mind control fluke worm.

Mind-Controlling Slime Balls

As an adult, the lancet liver fluke—a type of flatworm—resides in the livers of grazing mammals such as cows.

Its eggs are excreted in the host's feces, which are then eaten by snails. After the eggs hatch inside the snail, the snail creates protective cysts around the parasites and coughs them up in balls of mucus.

These fluke-laden slime balls are then consumed by ants. When the flukes wiggle their way into an ant's brain, they cause the insect to climb to the tip of a blade of grass and sit motionless, where it's most likely to be eaten by a grazing mammal. That way, the liver fluke can complete its life cycle.

So the "smart" fluke, once inside the ant, takes control of it's brain and make it climb to the top of a blade of grass so it can be eaten by a cow or other animal and continue it's life cycle. (fluke, cow, snail, ant, fluke, cow, snail, ant.....)
Intelligence??? or an evolutionary method of survival that must use 3 other species in order to live and survive?

There are a few animals that literally turn a host into a zombie as they take control of the hosts brain.

By the way, an ants brain is estimated to contain at least 250,000 neurons. I think a human brain has around 86 billion neurons. Faroe, I do agree that many animals exhibit some form of consciousness, the degree of which varies with the complexity of each brain.
And yes apes have shown the ability to master sign language. Koko the gorilla who recently died at the age of 46 had a sign vocabulary of 2000 words, and definitely had thoughts about the people and surroundings in her life and said so herself. ;)
 
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Melodi

Disaster Cat
I am not saying they "think" as we do at least not yet and neither is the article - but anyone who has either met a happy pet rat or dealt with a rat infestation in their home knows that rats DO think.

Maybe not like us and certainly not on our level but they do think; they have some awareness and just like dogs or cats they have individual personalities, likes and dislikes etc.

My real concern isn't about the discovery - discovering things is what science does and these scientists were not intending this outcome; but it what happens next that concerns me somewhat - again not so much in the West but say in China for example?

When the US tried to ban the use of embryonic stem cells the UK suddenly got an influx of those scientists (including two who were SCA/Middle Ages club members) when the ban was lifted (or became redundant because adult stem cells can now be used) they went home.

You can try to ban things but that usually just moves the research outside of the West or into the underground world of private labs.
 

NoMoreLibs

Kill Commie's, Every Single One Of Them!
It'll be when they start having feelings that we are in real trouble

If they have 'feelings', they have rights, if they have rights they can vote.... and then voters can be grown and genetically modified to vote dem in infinitum.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
First, unborn babies have their life force installed by God. Second, "thought" comes from sensory input. Petri-dish brain cells have none. Third, any living brain tissue would give off electrical impulses, since that's what those cells do.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
This is the point where the the building should be be turned down and the scientists Hillaried. Some lines ahould.not.be crossed!

Um, what??? Do you mean PILLORIED and BURNED down? And normally, this: "Some lines ahould.not.be crossed" would normally be written as "Some lines Should. Not. Be. Crossed!"

Spellingg iz gud...
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
onsciousness is yet....indefinable.


Consciousness is based on sentience. That is, self-awareness of one's self as an individual being, and an understanding of mortality. Sentience is bestowed by God.
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
This sort of thing is going to blow up ethics panels all over the Western World. I can see strong limitations, or certain humane procedures (like general anesthesia) being adopted soon for this kind of research. I'm sorta surprised U Cal San Diego got this far with their work without someone crying foul.
Places like China - the sky's the limit unfortunately.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Look, in order to establish whether or not a lab-grown brain has consciousness, you'd have to attach it to sensory inputs, such as eyes, ears, nose, and a way to communicate.. In order for that to occur, one would have to create a spinal column/nervous system, and that's not happening anytime soon AT ALL.
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
Pain, fear and distress are an ethical consideration in even the most primitive-brained animal research subjects or isolated brains thereof. With any possibility of consciousness present, these days it's usually ruled "best practice" to err on the side of caution with justification, or providing relief/anesthesia. I saw these questions being addressed 35-40 years ago and I'm sure every day somewhere since. Human brain tissue - "mini-organ" research will require a whole new round of discussion/regulation...especially if they are seeing any sort of neurological activity. Yikes.
 

NoMoreLibs

Kill Commie's, Every Single One Of Them!
Look, in order to establish whether or not a lab-grown brain has consciousness, you'd have to attach it to sensory inputs, such as eyes, ears, nose, and a way to communicate.. In order for that to occur, one would have to create a spinal column/nervous system, and that's not happening anytime soon AT ALL.

I dunno....

91zSu44%2B34L._SX355_.jpg



35 bucks on Amazon. That and a good soldering gun, who knows. :lol:
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
I tell you what, you get a Raspberry Pi and I'll pound the connectors into the side of your skull with a hammer. You can tell me if it works...

;)
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Oh, and Melodi, I just noticed your thread tags. We should minimize them as much as possible, as the "tag cloud" can be used as an alternate search methodology. If we have too many of them (over time), we lose the advantage gained by using tags.

FYI.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Oh, and Melodi, I just noticed your thread tags. We should minimize them as much as possible, as the "tag cloud" can be used as an alternate search methodology. If we have too many of them (over time), we lose the advantage gained by using tags.

FYI.

Oh sorry, I thought it was supposed to have five tags; much easier for me to just have one or even none - I am so glad to know this!
 

wobble

Veteran Member
So, will they be killing it with fire when it decides to defend itself or begin humping the lab workers legs?
 

samus79

Veteran Member
Well, it won’t be long now until the Chinese build an organic, neural network cybernetic skynet to conquer the earth. Cybernetic terminators with chopsticks and throwing stars.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
And the topic is back in the news, one thing for sure even if the "Western" powers ban this research it won't stop it, just send it to Asia and clandestine underground labs elsewhere. - Melodi

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-crossed-ethical-line-in-growing-human-brains
Scientists 'may have crossed ethical line' in growing human brains
Debate needed over research with ‘potential for something to suffer’, neuroscientists say

Ian Sample Science editor

@iansample
Mon 21 Oct 2019 00.01 BST

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Cross-section of a cerebral organoid
A cross-section of a cerebral organoid. Photograph: Madeline A Lancaster/IMBA/EPA
Neuroscientists may have crossed an “ethical rubicon” by growing lumps of human brain in the lab, and in some cases transplanting the tissue into animals, researchers warn.

The creation of mini-brains or brain “organoids” has become one of the hottest fields in modern neuroscience. The blobs of tissue are made from stem cells and, while they are only the size of a pea, some have developed spontaneous brain waves, similar to those seen in premature babies.

Many scientists believe that organoids have the potential to transform medicine by allowing them to probe the living brain like never before. But the work is controversial because it is unclear where it may cross the line into human experimentation.

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On Monday, researchers will tell the world’s largest annual meeting of neuroscientists that some scientists working on organoids are “perilously close” to crossing the ethical line, while others may already have done so by creating sentient lumps of brain in the lab.

“If there’s even a possibility of the organoid being sentient, we could be crossing that line,” said Elan Ohayon, the director of the Green Neuroscience Laboratory in San Diego, California. “We don’t want people doing research where there is potential for something to suffer.”

Because of the manifest difficulties in studying live human brains, organoids are considered a landmark development. They have been used to investigate schizophrenia and autism, and why some babies develop small brains when they are infected with Zika virus in the womb. Researchers hope to use organoids to study a raft of brain disorders, from Alzheimer’s to Parkinson’s, and eye conditions such as age-related macular degeneration.


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But in their presentation to the Society for Neuroscience meeting in Chicago, Ohayon and his colleagues Ann Lam and Paul Tsang will argue that checks must be in place to ensure that brain organoids do not experience suffering. “We’re already seeing activity in organoids that is reminiscent of biological activity in developing animals,” Ohayon said.

In one recent study, researchers at Harvard showed that brain organoids develop a rich diversity of tissues, from cerebral cortex neurons to retinal cells. Organoids grown for eight months developed their own neuronal networks that sparked with activity and responded when light was shone on them. In another study led by Fred Gage at the Salk Institute in San Diego, researchers transplanted human brain organoids into mouse brains and found that they connected up to the animal’s blood supply and sprouted fresh connections.

Ohayon wants funding agencies to freeze all research that aims to put human brain organoids into animals, along with other work where there is an reasonable chance of organoids becoming sentient. Ohayon has developed computer models that he believes help identify when sentience is likely to arise, but adds there is an “urgent need” for more work in the area.

In Britain, researchers are already banned from working on donated embryos that are older than 14 days. The limit, which some scientists want to extend, was imposed to protect developing humans from suffering.

Last year, a group of scientists, lawyers, ethicists and philosophers called for an ethical debate on brain organoids. The authors, including Hank Greely, director of the Center for Law and the Biosciences at Stanford University in California, said organoids were not yet sophisticated enough to raise immediate concerns, but that it was time to start discussing guidelines.

Greely said there was no single ethical line when it came to organoids. “I’m confident they don’t think we’ve reached a Gregor Samsa state, where a person wakes up and finds he is an organoid,” he said, referring to the character in Franz Kafka’s The Metamorphosis who wakes up to find he is a giant insect. But he added, “If they mean the potential to perceive or to react to things, that seems to me likely.”

Greely believes the concerns become more serious if organoids perceive and react to stimuli that might cause pain. “That becomes still more important if we have reason to believe the organoid has an aversive reaction to that stimuli, that it ‘feels pain’. I strongly doubt that anyone has reached that point or come close to it,” he added.

Gage told the Guardian: “I think it is never too soon to raise issues about ethics in science, so that a thoughtful dialogue can guide scientific research and decisions.”
 
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