CORP/BIZ California May Be Coming for You -- big back taxes if you NEVER did anything there

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
https://spectator.org/california-may-be-coming-for-you/

by STEVEN GREENHUT
April 4, 2019

"Those of us who live in California are used to the state’s aggressive tax-collection policies. Despite record-setting budgets, the state never has enough revenue to fund all the programs it wants to create or expand so the tax authorities have to shake every last dime out of residents’ pockets. But now, thanks to confusion over how to collect online sales taxes, California’s tax-collection agency may be coming for you — even if you sell a few items from your kitchen table in Kansas.

The newly created California Department of Tax and Fee Administration (CDTFA) has been sending collection letters to small businesses that sell products via online retail platforms such as Fulfillment by Amazon. The agency claims that such third-party sellers owe eight years of back taxes because they are considered to have a physical presence in the Golden State. The agency threatens tens of thousands of dollars in fines and imprisonment of up to three years.

It’s a frightening proposition. As California Treasurer Fiona Ma noted in a recent letter to Gov. Gavin Newsom, she’s heard from a Washington state third-party seller who is “distraught and frightened” after receiving a letter from California telling her that she’s “facing tens of thousands of dollars in back taxes, penalties and interest” — something that “will force us out of business and into bankruptcy.” The seller has complied with California tax rules and signed up for a California business license, but now our state wants uncollected sales taxes going back eight years.

How can a Washington business potentially be forced into bankruptcy by Sacramento taxing authorities?

Well, the entire online tax-collection issue is complicated and unresolved. In 2018, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the South Dakota v. Wayfair decision that states can collect sales taxes from online businesses even if they do not have a physical presence in the state, and California (like many other states) begin collecting those this week. But California isn’t content collecting such taxes from that date going forward. It wants to get every cent it can from businesses going back years before that.

To do so, the agency is taking a novel and highly controversial reading of what it means to have such a presence in our state. “Your nexus in California may have been established because you use Fulfillment by Amazon services for sales you make over the Internet and some of your inventory is stored in fulfillment center warehouses in Californian for delivery to consumers in this state,” according to a CDTFA letter quoted by TechRepublic. The agency also is demanding that Amazon hand over private information from these companies.

In other words, California is saying that businesses in Washington, Mississippi, and elsewhere actually had a presence in California because — unbeknownst to them — the Amazon fulfillment service may have stored their product in a warehouse somewhere in, say, the San Joaquin Valley or the Inland Empire. Treasurer Ma, who is one of the few statewide officials with a history of standing up for California’s taxpayers, calls this action “unlawful, unconstitutional and impractical.”

In her letter to Newsom, Ma noted that these big online retail platforms have total control over how the products are stored, packaged, paid for, and delivered. It was the online platforms — not the small business in Kansas or Pennsylvania — that chose to store the goods in some California warehouse.

“It makes no sense to expose these small businesses to the risk of actions by CDTFA, as they are not the ones responsible for uncollected sales tax under state law, nor is it constitutionally permissible to impose such burdens on these businesses,” she wrote. “Putting an unbearable tax burden on many small kitchen-table enterprises trying to make a living on these online retail platforms simply does not make sense, and it is not consistent with our state laws, public policies, or our values.” She worried about the impact on women- and minority-owned businesses.

Bravo to Ma, although I’d argue that California tax authorities’ behavior seems right in keeping with California’s “values,” as the state always seems oblivious to the harm its tax and regulatory policies cause businesses in its quest to build bigger bureaucracies.

The Wayfair ruling has created a confused mess because, as TechRepublic explained, “it opened the floodgates and provided no practical guidance for compliance, with Chief Justice Roberts stating in his dissent that the ruling ‘breezily disregards the costs that its decision will impose on retailers.’” Ma’s argument — bolstered by the fact that overseas sellers easily avoid paying sales taxes — is that the big fulfillment operations ought to collect the taxes.

Until that broader national issue is resolved, though, the most aggressive tax collectors are going to torment mom-and-pop businesses. The California Legislature could rein in CDTFA’s power, but don’t count on it. As I reported last year for The American Spectator, lawmakers gladly used some scandals to gut the Board of Equalization — the nation’s only tax-collection body governed by elected officials. They replaced it with CDTFA and its companion Office of Tax Appeals.

It’s easy to understand the Legislature’s motivation. BOE was a surprisingly taxpayer-friendly because career-minded politicians were elected to these posts. They often sympathized with businesses that were being unfairly treated by the state given that they had to be sensitive to voters. Whereas the BOE often ruled on behalf of taxpayers in tax appeals, the new agencies rarely do so. The new, less accountable revenuers seem focused entirely on grabbing more money.

It’s one thing for Californians to be “crushed by a wrong-headed and retroactive administration of the state’s tax law,” as Ma put it. We choose to live and vote here, so we deal with the consequences. But the online economy recognizes no state boundaries. As a result, you might have to deal with these tax authorities, too."
 

cooter

cantankerous old coot
hopefully, some of the political people

out there get caught up in this, nothing more fun than watching the demrats, eat their own,
 

1911user

Veteran Member
Could this be a black swan economic event? California driving businesses across the country into bankruptcy due to aggressive yet dubious tax collection ideas?
 

Reasonable Rascal

Veteran Member
Could this be a black swan economic event? California driving businesses across the country into bankruptcy due to aggressive yet dubious tax collection ideas?

Its just business as usual with them. In years past they have tried to dun travel nurses who hold California licenses because, well, they might have worked in the state part of the year. I mean, they hold an active license, so.... That is actually their thinking. People who make travel nursing a career generally hold several licenses for states they *may* wish to visit/work in. As California is not a Nursing Compact state they require their own license even for temporary employment, as little as a 1-day health fair.

To make an example: you decide to take a 13 week contract in San Jose so you can tourist the area on your days off. You obtain a license, work there, and nearly 2 years later your license is still active but you haven't even made a connecting flight through that state much less earned income there. But because your nursing license is active they assume that you had and send you a tax bill. This has happened over and over across the industry. It wasn't just a one-off event, it happened to a bunch of travel medical professionals.

I lived in AZ but worked in CA for 2-1/2 years. When we relocated back to the Midwest I let my license expire and prayed they never tried to dun me for back taxes for years I never worked there. Was back in AZ working a year before we finally left.

RR
 

MountainBiker

Veteran Member
Isn't the burden of proof on CA to prove you worked or sold things there?

The way these things work is they send you a bill for what they think you might owe based on their own calculations that assume all of your income declared at a Federal level was earned in that State. The burden is then on you to prove that they are wrong.

I had this happen to me in Vermont several years after I moved here from Massachusetts. My move to VT was as of Dec 31st one year and so my return address when I filed my Federal and MA tax returns for the prior year was in VT. It was a whopper of a bill and had penalties and interest. Given State govt. here is very small, I called up the tax dept., got a real person on the phone and explained the situation. She then emailed a form to fill out and had me send that back to her along with a couple tax documents. That afternoon she closed my case being I had documented I wasn't a resident of VT for the year in question. Probably not so easy in CA.

Most States have gotten more aggressive on the sales tax issues. Here in VT they ask you on your tax return whether you made any purchases out of State that didn't collect VT sales tax. Most people just say no but then they started going after high income households looking for them to somehow prove it. The default which I started doing when a friend got one of those letters was to use the option on the tax return of allowing the State to use an estimated sales tax owed based on your income. It isn't much so I choose that option and just give them the default amount. Easier than being audited.
 

West

Senior
After I left California in 06, they hounded me for years with warnings of fines and what not for not registering my rigs and for not paying state payroll taxes and liabilities, and sales taxes, each time I did respond back that I was no longer doing business in California and to leave me alone. Still it didn't stop them from harassing me. Took about three years for them to stop.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
They are in such a hole and the infrastructure is crumbling but they still want to be a sanctuary state and hand out benefits to illegals. Past time for the taxpayers to vote with their feet.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
It’s run entirely by Marxists now, for the benefit of the world’s dregs. Decent people need to GTFO while they can.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
Could this be a black swan economic event? California driving businesses across the country into bankruptcy due to aggressive yet dubious tax collection ideas?

Good luck trying to collect it. People will adapt and avoid the tax.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
The default which I started doing when a friend got one of those letters was to use the option on the tax return of allowing the State to use an estimated sales tax owed based on your income. It isn't much so I choose that option and just give them the default amount. Easier than being audited.

This is what they are after. Getting people to admit fault by sending small amounts. The letters are cheap and easy to produce. Resulting in a net win for the State and greater revenue.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
That was my thought as well. Give the armed robber $20 and hope he doesn’t notice your expensive watch. He’s still an armed robber.
 

hiwall

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Expect to see ads with small print on the bottom that says (no shipments to CA).
 

1911user

Veteran Member
Its just business as usual with them. In years past they have tried to dun travel nurses who hold California licenses because, well, they might have worked in the state part of the year. I mean, they hold an active license, so.... That is actually their thinking. People who make travel nursing a career generally hold several licenses for states they *may* wish to visit/work in. As California is not a Nursing Compact state they require their own license even for temporary employment, as little as a 1-day health fair.

To make an example: you decide to take a 13 week contract in San Jose so you can tourist the area on your days off. You obtain a license, work there, and nearly 2 years later your license is still active but you haven't even made a connecting flight through that state much less earned income there. But because your nursing license is active they assume that you had and send you a tax bill. This has happened over and over across the industry. It wasn't just a one-off event, it happened to a bunch of travel medical professionals.

I lived in AZ but worked in CA for 2-1/2 years. When we relocated back to the Midwest I let my license expire and prayed they never tried to dun me for back taxes for years I never worked there. Was back in AZ working a year before we finally left.

RR

It would be fitting for all of the medical professionals to completely boycott California until rational thought returns. No licenses, no visiting, nothing. Maybe they could get some med staff from Mexico to fill in?
 

subnet

Boot
How is passing a tax collection law then making it retroactive up to 8 years back, even slightly legal???
 

byronandkathy2003

Veteran Member
if every business big and and small quits selling and shipping anything to commiefornia as in cars, food , clothes and every thing else that will screw them up good..
 

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
Have good friends who moved to N. California to follow and be close to their hippy-dippy kids. I tried to warn them, but being of a somewhat "liberal bent" they of course believed that California was a utopia, brim full of the enlightened. Haha!

They bought a chunk of land waaaay up in the hills and want to build. Right. Now all I hear is bitching about high taxes and fees, regs and permits and 1-2 year waits while bureaucrats scratch their behinds, and what a mess PG&E is (ummm...they are a notorious disaster known nationwide!), the license bureau and post offices are incompetent as hell, and how somehow, the incredible state health insurance and health care system in truth majorly sucks and is next to worthless.

Oh well...some people have to learn the hard way.
 

David Nettleton

Veteran Member
After I left California in 06, they hounded me for years with warnings of fines and what not for not registering my rigs and for not paying state payroll taxes and liabilities, and sales taxes, each time I did respond back that I was no longer doing business in California and to leave me alone. Still it didn't stop them from harassing me. Took about three years for them to stop.

Hmmmm. I wonder if they could charge an estate of someone they 'thought' owed them tax $? If yes (and what's to stop them from trying) that would throw a wrench into what is already a nightmare.
 

almost ready

Inactive
How is passing a tax collection law then making it retroactive up to 8 years back, even slightly legal???

As the saying goes, "For my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law".

Oscar R. Benavides, President of Peru from 1933 to 1939

Tyranny unleashed.
 

Luddite

Veteran Member
Expect to see ads with small print on the bottom that says (no shipments to CA).

Sorta like what happened with Proposition 65. (Everything is gonna give you cancer and needs a label informing you of that possibility.)

We had to put individual stickers on individual packages for shipment to Cali years ago. Yuge labor investment. Easier to look for customers elsewhere and tell those in Cali, "Sorry, we're out. Call back next month". Not all businesses can do that. Somebody will provide for the market, BUT, "it's gonna cost ya"...
 

MountainBiker

Veteran Member
This is what they are after. Getting people to admit fault by sending small amounts. The letters are cheap and easy to produce. Resulting in a net win for the State and greater revenue.

But alternatively if I have to produce my credit card and banking data to prove I didn't buy anything out of State. That is going to cost me a whole lot more in time and aggravation. Of course I buy things out of State without paying VT sales tax, and so I'd lose anyway.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Wouldn't this fall under taxation without representation?

Being HQ'd elsewhere, they don't have the right, or ability to vote for representative's, thus no representation in the State's Assembly.

Someone, anyone is free to correct.

But if true, didn't we fight a war over that?
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I worked in ca once. My favorite q on their state income tax was, "have you received any payments from the Ottoman Empire (something) Fund?" I found this amusing, as the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist, somewhere around 1918... Glad I didn't ever have a business that sold anything there! But have to wonder. For those that did, and have the state wanting money from them, what does the state do, if the business, say, in Vermont, or something, says, "Bite Me"?
 

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Another example of a poorly run state. Probably the worst in the nation. :shk:

It may be a poorly run state but it is a well run tyrannical dictatorship. Probably the best in the nation.

The agency also is demanding that Amazon hand over private information from these companies.

What a great way to look for records of normal capacity magazine purchases and other gun paraphernalia.
 

Kevmoley

Look, I am a Member
Another example of a poorly run state. Probably the worst in the nation. :shk:

My old state, New York, certainly gives them a run for the worst though. The Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge in NYC now had a $19.00 toll (most expensive toll in US)
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
What a great way to look for records of normal capacity magazine purchases and other gun paraphernalia.



Don’t buy through amazon.

Problem solved.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Expect to see ads with small print on the bottom that says (no shipments to CA).

I can set my shopping cart to prohibit sales to where ever I want... gonna change that today and add California to not sell to that state, last year I had to add Pennsylvania because they are doing the same thing.
 

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
What a great way to look for records of normal capacity magazine purchases and other gun paraphernalia.



Don’t buy through amazon.

Problem solved.

You know me, I refuse to help jeff slezos by purchasing anything from or through amazon. Does not help those who made purchases through amazon over the past eight years. Just another arrow in the left's anti-gun quiver. Big data, add up they clues, prepare the persons of interest list.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
Isn't the burden of proof on CA to prove you worked or sold things there?

Nope. Like the paternity issue in California, if you fail to respond, they "assume" you are admitting guilt / responsibility for the taxes / fatherhood. They then proceed from there, take the monies and then it is up to you to prove differently. Failure to prove differently in a specified period of time results in closure and they proceed as if you are guilty and you can never change that.

Not sure what it is for taxes, but they give two years on paternity from the point of the case is filed. Regardless if they ever get around to notifying you about the case.
 

Coulter

Veteran Member
What could they do - if - say you lived in Mississippi and Mississippi voted themselves a sanctuary state for protection from California?
 

marsh

On TB every waking moment
I lived in far N. CA on the border with Oregon. CA would get a hold of Oregon farm supply records for baling twine. Then they would see if they could spot any CA buyers who didn't pay CA taxes on the twine. When they did, they would audit them looking for bigger purchases like farm equipment. Every time they found and unreported purchase, it enabled them to go back and audit the three years before the purchase.

I had several friends caught in this nightmare.
 

willowlady

Veteran Member
The way these things work is they send you a bill for what they think you might owe based on their own calculations that assume all of your income declared at a Federal level

Um, if you neither worked in CA nor filed a tax return in CA, how exactly to they know what income you declared in your Federal returns?
 
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