Bush threatening access to birth control?

Dornroeschen

Inactive
Bush threatening access to birth control?
White House seeks to protect health-care workers who object to abortion
By Rob Stein
The Washington Post
updated 10:27 p.m. CT, Wed., July. 30, 2008

A Bush administration proposal aimed at protecting health-care workers who object to abortion, and to birth-control methods they consider tantamount to abortion, has escalated a bitter debate over the balance between religious freedom and patients' rights.

The Department of Health and Human Services is reviewing a draft regulation that would deny federal funding to any hospital, clinic, health plan or other entity that does not accommodate employees who want to opt out of participating in care that runs counter to their personal convictions, including providing birth-control pills, IUDs and the Plan B emergency contraceptive.

Conservative groups, abortion opponents and some members of Congress are welcoming the initiative as necessary to safeguard doctors, nurses and other health workers who, they say, are increasingly facing discrimination because of their beliefs or are being coerced into delivering services they find repugnant.

But the draft proposal has sparked intense criticism by family planning advocates, women's health activists, and members of Congress who say the regulation would create overwhelming obstacles for women seeking abortions and birth control.

There is also deep concern that the rule could have far-reaching, but less obvious, implications. Because of its wide scope and because it would -- apparently for the first time -- define abortion in a federal regulation as anything that affects a fertilized egg, the regulation could raise questions about a broad spectrum of scientific research and care, critics say.

"The breadth of this is potentially immense," said Robyn S. Shapiro, a bioethicist and lawyer at the Medical College of Wisconsin. "Is this going to result in a kind of blessed censorship of a whole host of areas of medical care and research?"

Broad implications
Critics charge that the proposal is the latest example of the administration politicizing science to advance ideological goals.

"They are manipulating the system by manipulating the definition of the word 'abortion,' " said Susan F. Wood, a professor at George Washington University who resigned from the Food and Drug Administration over the delays in approving the nonprescription sale of Plan B. "It's another example of this administration's disregard for science and medicine in how agencies make decisions."

The proposal is outlined in a 39-page draft regulation that has been circulated among several HHS agencies. The FDA has not objected, but several officials at the National Institutes of Health said that the agency had expressed serious concerns.

"This is causing a lot of distress," said one NIH researcher who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions. "It's a redefinition of abortion that does not match any of the current medical definitions. It's ideologically based and not based on science and could interfere with the development of many new therapies to treat diseases."

Since a copy of the document leaked earlier this month, outside advocates and scientists have voiced growing alarm that the regulation could inhibit research in areas including stem cells, infertility and even such unrelated fields as cancer.

Letters of protest
Dozens of members of Congress have sent letters of protest to HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt, as have scores of major medical and health groups that say their supporters have sent Congress, the White House and HHS thousands of letters protesting the proposal.

HHS officials declined to discuss the draft, saying it is in the very early stages of review. But HHS issued a statement that reads in part:

"Over the past three decades, Congress has passed several anti-discrimination laws to protect institutional and individual health care providers participating in federal programs. HHS has an obligation to enforce these laws, and is exploring a number of options."

The draft states that numerous cases have been reported of health-care workers being "required to violate their consciences by providing or assisting in the provision of controversial medicine or procedures." It adds that many states have recently passed laws requiring health plans to pay for contraception, pharmacists to fill prescriptions for birth control, and hospitals to offer Plan B to women who have been raped.

"In general, the Department is concerned that the development of an environment in the health care industry that is intolerant of certain religious beliefs, ethnic and cultural traditions, and moral convictions may discourage individuals from underrepresented and diverse backgrounds from entering health care professions," the document states.

Targeting birth control?
The regulation would require any entity receiving HHS funding to certify that it does not discriminate against organizations or individuals who do not want to provide services they consider objectionable.

The most controversial section defines abortion as "any of the various procedures -- including the prescription, dispensing and administration of any drug or the performance of any procedure or any other action -- that results in the termination of life of a human being in utero between conception and natural birth, whether before or after implantation."

That definition would include most forms of hormonal birth control and the IUD, which most major medical groups believe do not constitute abortion because they primarily affect ovulation or fertilization and not an embryo once it has implanted in the womb.

The regulation would apply to anyone who participates in "any activity with a logical connection to a procedure, health service or health service program, or research activity. . . . This includes referral, training and other arrangements of the procedure, health service, or research activity."

If the administration decides to adopt the regulation, it would undergo public comment and further review before becoming final.

Critics argue that the broad definitions of abortion and the types of workers who could object would cover everyone from the top doctor at a hospital to the janitor.

Regulation could trump state laws
Cecile Richards of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America said, "At a time when access to health care is at an all-time low, the idea that the Bush administration would be creating more barriers is frankly incredible."

The regulation could trump dozens of state laws that require health plans to cover birth control, pharmacists to fill prescriptions for contraceptives, and hospitals to offer emergency contraception to women who have been raped, critics said.

"You could imagine a group of people with less than honorable intentions seeking to get hired at a family planning clinic with the specific objective of obstructing access. Under this regulation, there is little you could do about it," said Jill Morrison of the National Women's Law Center.

Others said the rule could have additional implications, including justifying discrimination against gays, single women or others seeking health care.

"As soon as you have a definition in one part of federal law, it can become the inspiration for the reinterpretation of other statutes," said R. Alta Charo, a lawyer and bioethicist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

Supporters dismissed such predictions.

"This would essentially simply require people to comply with laws that they have been required to comply with for decades," said M. Casey Mattox of the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. "That does not mean any organization or state can't keep doing exactly what it's been doing. It means they have to make room for people who have sincere moral or ethical concerns about doing something."

Support from conservatives
Conservative groups including the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Concerned Women for America and the Catholic Medical Association said the regulation is needed.

David Christensen of the Family Research Council said: "Health-care professionals should not be forced to engage in an action that they see is the taking of a human life. Federal funds shouldn't be used for that kind of pressure."

Christensen and others said the regulations spell out legitimate differing views about what constitutes abortion and when life begins.

Richard S. Myers, a law professor at Ave Maria School of Law in Ann Arbor, Mich., said: "Religious freedom is an important part of the history of this country. People who have a religious or moral belief should not be forced to participate in an act they find abhorrent."

© 2008 The Washington Post Company

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25940818/
 

spinnerholic

Inactive
Uhhhh...don't the people who object to part of their jobs have the legal right to quit those jobs and go get another more in line with their private beliefs?

The govt has no business at all in the bedrooms of married people or consenting adults. Denying birth control to anyone people is flat insane!

Since Bush and wife have 2 kids, I guess they only had sex a couple of times?

We can't even take good care of the children already born, so of course it makes good sense for Congress to spend vast amounts of time with investigations and special commissions to deal with defining birth control by any method as abortion?

The lunatics are in charge of the asylum!!!
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
"...Uhhhh...don't the people who object to part of their jobs have the legal right to quit those jobs and go get another more in line with their private beliefs?.."

Sounds good. You then would have no problem requiring that every doctor/nurse participate in an abortion before he could be licensed?

Not off the wall either. Such was proposed and defeated in Cali (where else) in the mid-70's.
 

FREEBIRD

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The article is a fine example of scare-tactic "journalism".

Don't worry, you'll still get your pills and your abortions. The regulation essentially says that health workers can't be punished for conscientious objection to abortion (although many people are upset by the thought that they shouldn't be punished for it).
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Spinnerholic is correct.

You will get what your doctor thinks, according to his/her beliefs, is right - not what is necessarily right for you.

This doesn't just involve abortions or morning-after medication (which can now be denied to rape victims, thanks to the asshole in the White House). It extends to birth control pills, IUDs....even condoms.

Bush shouldn't pay back his political cronies at the expense of other women's health, and their privacy.
 

bobpick

Inactive
Spinnerholic is correct.

You will get what your doctor thinks, according to his/her beliefs, is right - not what is necessarily right for you.

Being a health care professional I must protest. I tell my patients, "I'm recommending X and not Y. If you would like some names of providers who will prescribe/perform Y, I can give them to you, but I cannot in good conscious do as you ask.

I set my limits and they know it. They have the power to decide the course of their treatment, not me.
 

KerryAnn

Inactive
Knee-jerk journalism at it's finest, indeed.

Uhhhh...don't the people who object to part of their jobs have the legal right to quit those jobs and go get another more in line with their private beliefs?

To use the reasoning above, no person who isn't depraved should ever work in any medical field, because they might at one point have to deal with something against their eithcs or morals, whether it be a birth control, informed consent or euthanasia issue. Informed consent being the biggest of those three, as it's a rife issue in medical are now.

At some point, in any job, you're going to face an ethical issue. This isn't limited to the medical field, although under the guise of 'birth control' it's certainly going to raise a lot of hackles via knee-jerk reactions instead of people thinking the issue through. Why should birth control be any different than any other ethical issue?

Planned Parenthood still gives access to all forms of birth control and abortion as far as I'm aware, and the doctors and nurses there support it. Condoms are OTC, so how would those be affected. It's not like they hand them out at the doctor's office. It's not even likely the availability would be hard-affected, as the VAST majority of people in the medical field support birth control. I lived in a major metropolitan area up until recently. In a 200-mile wide radius, I know of exactly two doctors who will not perscribe birth control for their patients, and both are family practitioners who focus more on children than adults.
 

willowlady

Veteran Member
'Scuse me people,

but if this is implemented it will soon translate into health-care workers not having to wash their hands or do other things that violate their religious scruples. Think that's a stretch? Think it through.
 

spinnerholic

Inactive
Troke, pardon me for not being more explicate in my first post.

I do not believe that any doctor with ethical objections should be required to perform abortions. I don't believe that doctors with ethical objections should be required to prescribe birth control, in any form. I do not believe that doctors who have ethical objections should be required to prescribe the "morning after" pill. I do not believe that any doctor with ethical problems about prescribing any form of birth control should be required to write those scripts.

I do not believe that any OR nurse with ethical objections should be required to be a part of a team performing an abortion.

I DO believe that medical professionals with such ethical beliefs should be REQUIRED to make their ethical stances clearly understood and totally open to all potential patients as well as patients already under their care - so the patient can make her own informed decision about what kind of doctor and care she wants. This is only reasonable so a woman will not be required to waste her time or money going to someone who is not going to give her the help she feels she needs. If these ethical medical professionals are going to practice what they believe, which is surely their right, they ought to up front and totally open about it. Informed consent is every patients right - legally.

Surely patients have every right to know their future needs may be in direct conflict with the doctor's ethical beliefs!!! And they shouldn't have to find out in the doctor's office, after waiting for an appointment when they may well be racing the clock.

OR nurses should make their ethical feelings very clear to the hospital and the Director of Nurses. If that leads to the nurse being transferred to another department where there will be no ethical complications, then that is the price to be paid. Or if the hospital refuses to hire or keep an employee that refuses to be a part of a medical team performing a legal procedure, then that also is a price that must be paid.

Sometimes taking a firm stance because of ethical beliefs carries a price. It has always been this way and probably always will. Stand up for what you believe in and be prepared for what might happen or sit down and shut up. With the nursing shortage being what it is, finding another nursing position without potential ethical conflicts should not be a hardship.

Pharmacists who refuse to fill a prescription for the morning after pill AND keeping the script so the woman can't get it filled elsewhere is another matter entirely, especially if that druggist is the only one on duty at the time. A pharmacist is hired to dispense legal drugs and again, the morning after pill is a legal drug.

Will we also allow pharmacists to refuse to fill the prescriptions for very strong narcotics that are often prescribed for terminal cancer patients because they believe that suffering is given by God and no one has the right to interfere with God's Will?

I have to admire doctors and nurses that will take a strong stand for what they believe to be right.

I also find it sneaky, underhanded, two faced, and downright slimy to not have the guts to let their patients know exactly where they stand, long before an urgent need develops for the patient when already under extreme stress, they find they also must deal with previously unknown "ethical" conflicts with their doctor. And I'm specifically thinking of the need for the morning after pill for a rape victim.

You then would have no problem requiring that every doctor/nurse participate in an abortion before he could be licensed?

You have twisted my words and meaning into something totally out of shape and off the wall. I do not believe that any doctor or nurse should be required to participate in an abortion in order to be licensed. I do believe that they should be required - by law if necessary - to make their ethical stance very clear to all patients and potential patients.

There is no sense in being forced to waste time waiting for an appointment, or money paying for a doctor visit when there is no way you are going to get the service you feel you need. That is flat out cheating, any way you cut it. And also completely unethical. IMO.
 
Being a health care professional I must protest. I tell my patients, "I'm recommending X and not Y. If you would like some names of providers who will prescribe/perform Y, I can give them to you, but I cannot in good conscious do as you ask.

I set my limits and they know it. They have the power to decide the course of their treatment, not me.

:applaud::applaud::applaud:

And that's the way it should be. People need to take control of the direction of their own health care. Doctors need to give patients the tools to do that, even if it involves going to another practitioner.

You sound like my kinda doc bobpick. I don't know anything about your views, your practice or anything like that. But if you are willing to give your patients that much power in charting the course of their own health care, I give you a big thumbs up.
 

buff

Deceased
hey fruitloop..

i cannot for the life of me figure how y'all can be anti death penalty and pro abortion. it does not make sense in my mind..
 
but if this is implemented it will soon translate into health-care workers not having to wash their hands or do other things that violate their religious scruples. Think that's a stretch? Think it through.


A much better argument than screaming about full access to murder for your unborn.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Because I'm not, Buff. I'm pro-choice, which is a difference. I do not think that I have the right to tell other women what to do based on my own personal beliefs.

That decision doesn't belong in government at all. It's a medical issue, best decided by the individual and her doctor.
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
Because I'm not, Buff. I'm pro-choice, which is a difference. I do not think that I have the right to tell other women what to do based on my own personal beliefs.

That decision doesn't belong in government at all. It's a medical issue, best decided by the individual and her doctor.

Then you are also pro-choice on the death penalty, right????


And you're also pro-choice on the doctor's ability to refuse to perform an abortion, right??? Or are you just kinda pro-choice?
:rolleyes:

.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Doctors who don't want to perform abortions need not apply at hospitals or clinics that perform them. End of story.

No, I'm not pro-choice on the death penalty. That's a totally different subject and it's not possible to be "pro choice" on the death penalty. My fear is that an innocent person will be convicted and executed. The death penalty and abortion do not compare to each other. Get real.
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
Doctors who don't want to perform abortions need not apply at hospitals or clinics that perform them. End of story.

No, I'm not pro-choice on the death penalty. That's a totally different subject and it's not possible to be "pro choice" on the death penalty. My fear is that an innocent person will be convicted and executed. The death penalty and abortion do not compare to each other. Get real.

Gee, so there is no chance that the child being aborted is innocent?


Not very pro-choice are you?

.
 
Doctors who don't want to perform abortions need not apply at hospitals or clinics that perform them. End of story.

No, I'm not pro-choice on the death penalty. That's a totally different subject and it's not possible to be "pro choice" on the death penalty. My fear is that an innocent person will be convicted and executed. The death penalty and abortion do not compare to each other. Get real.

That's the funniest (in a very sad way) thing heard you say in a while.

If anything, according to your sliding scale of morality, the abortion is much worse because any adult is guilty of something while an unborn baby is guilty of nothing.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Sigh.....

Like it or not, the unborn has no life apart from the mother at that point. Her decision as to whether she continues to carry it. There are plenty of reasons why a woman wouldn't, and some that I think would be cruel to force (incest victims like the one in Austria, for example). That's her decision. It's a medical procedure, agree with it or not.

It's two different issues.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
Yes, it is. And it doesn't make me wrong and you right, either. Leave it to the individual to decide. Other adults don't want you, or me, making personal decisions for them.
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
Yes, it is. And it doesn't make me wrong and you right, either. Leave it to the individual to decide. Other adults don't want you, or me, making personal decisions for them.

But apparently you'd force the decision for others in regards to the death penalty, or for what doctors and nurses MUST do.


What if a hospital was fine with not forcing a doctor or nurse to assist with abortions, and the hospital has their own designated abortionist squad?



.
 

fruit loop

Inactive
What if a hospital was fine with not forcing a doctor or nurse to assist with abortions, and the hospital has their own designated abortionist squad?

Then what is the issue? No one is being forced to perform the procedure. Doctors and nurses who disapprove can just not work at that hospital.
 

kozanne

Inactive
Being a health care professional I must protest. I tell my patients, "I'm recommending X and not Y. If you would like some names of providers who will prescribe/perform Y, I can give them to you, but I cannot in good conscious do as you ask.

I set my limits and they know it. They have the power to decide the course of their treatment, not me.

Best answer so far. Birth control and abortion are personal decisions at every level of the process. That's how it should stay. ETA: And your method allows respect for what both parties believe, bobpick.

ETA times 2: Having worked at the only clinic in a 400 mi radius that did first trimester abortions [along with a full range of ob/gyn services], I can tell you that at my job interview I was told that the facility's official position was one of pro choice and did i agree with that? They gave me the opportunity to decide whether or not I could work there from the get go. Given the incredible shortage of medical personnel anymore, I would venture to say if a doctor or nurse has a problem working in a facility that does abortions or provides contraceptive services, they can easily get a job elsewhere.
 

bobpick

Inactive
Best answer so far. Birth control and abortion are personal decisions at every level of the process. That's how it should stay. ETA: And your method allows respect for what both parties believe, bobpick.

What does ETA mean?? :whistle:
 

Technomancer

Inactive
If the article is even semi correct, it refers to "dispensing prescriptions". This would only affect federal funding, not law in general, but as we have seen in the past, these kind of regulations gain power as though they were setting an official policy on anything related, i.e. walmart would next be forced to comply when an employee who finds some moral objection against a particular medicine (even a generic pain killer or antibiotic), sues when disciplined for refusing to service a customer(filling a script or ringing up the purchase) tryin to purchase such.

Aside from the redirection to the abortion debates, this refered to anything someone 'feels' is related to abortion. which for some people include condoms, the pill, or even anything which appeals to sex that doesnt result in a pregnancy ( flavors, lubes other things i wouldnt mention on the front page).

So, excluding the abortion procedure itself, this is a rough analogy to a bookstore worker or librarian refusing to allow someone to take a certain book due to their own beleifs as to what that person should be allowed to read. Perhaps the 'wrong' bible translation etc.

As to the abortion thing, I do have one question/issue. Those that compare it to murder of a fully sentient whole person, versus a potential person, would the other degrees of homicide apply as well, or is it a life only in certain cases?
For me to beleive anyone genuinely considers a fertilized egg a whole and fully self aware person from minute one throughout gestation...

.... I would have to see them hold true to their beliefs in all cases, not just ones that make for good protests. For instance, prosecuting women who miscarry for at the least negligent manslaughter if it can be proven they wouldnt have miscarried if they had taken certain meds or vitamins, stayed in bed, etc. If a pregnant woman works outside the home, (especially in a stressful or dangerous environment) or lives in an unhealthy home environment, surely thats child endangerment or attempted murder?
If one cant consistently apply the rights of a whole person to a fetus in cases of miscarriage, not being healthy while carrying the child etc, then I cannot see how they can deem abortions murder and claim to have rational self consistent beleifs or thoughts.
 

amarilla

Veteran Member
Personhood does not depend on size or we should kill short people since they aren't as human as tall people.

Personhood doesn't depend on level of developement. If personhood depends on that then no one would survive since we would kill them all before they became adults.

Personhood doesn't change due to dependency. My grandma was in a nursing home and needed help to use the restroom and a wheelchair to get around. No one would suggest that she wasn't a person. The baby is dependent on the mom, true but many of us, if not all have been dependent on others during our lives.

Below is a link that explains better than I.

http://www.str.org/site/DocServer/2.1_four_top_arguments.pdf?docID=861

A
 
If the article is even semi correct, it refers to "dispensing prescriptions". This would only affect federal funding, not law in general, but as we have seen in the past, these kind of regulations gain power as though they were setting an official policy on anything related, i.e. walmart would next be forced to comply when an employee who finds some moral objection against a particular medicine (even a generic pain killer or antibiotic), sues when disciplined for refusing to service a customer(filling a script or ringing up the purchase) tryin to purchase such.

Aside from the redirection to the abortion debates, this refered to anything someone 'feels' is related to abortion. which for some people include condoms, the pill, or even anything which appeals to sex that doesnt result in a pregnancy ( flavors, lubes other things i wouldnt mention on the front page).

So, excluding the abortion procedure itself, this is a rough analogy to a bookstore worker or librarian refusing to allow someone to take a certain book due to their own beleifs as to what that person should be allowed to read. Perhaps the 'wrong' bible translation etc.

As to the abortion thing, I do have one question/issue. Those that compare it to murder of a fully sentient whole person, versus a potential person, would the other degrees of homicide apply as well, or is it a life only in certain cases?
For me to beleive anyone genuinely considers a fertilized egg a whole and fully self aware person from minute one throughout gestation...

.... I would have to see them hold true to their beliefs in all cases, not just ones that make for good protests. For instance, prosecuting women who miscarry for at the least negligent manslaughter if it can be proven they wouldnt have miscarried if they had taken certain meds or vitamins, stayed in bed, etc. If a pregnant woman works outside the home, (especially in a stressful or dangerous environment) or lives in an unhealthy home environment, surely thats child endangerment or attempted murder?
If one cant consistently apply the rights of a whole person to a fetus in cases of miscarriage, not being healthy while carrying the child etc, then I cannot see how they can deem abortions murder and claim to have rational self consistent beleifs or thoughts.

That's ridiculous.

And FL, I'm not really concerned about your opinion, or even mine. I am only concerned w/God's opinion on life.
 
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