ENER Australian scientists announce solar energy breakthrough (Up to more than 40% efficient)

[Housecarl]

For links see article source.....
Posted for fair use.....
http://www.france24.com/en/20141207-australian-scientists-announce-solar-energy-breakthrough/

07 December 2014 - 20H05
Australian scientists announce solar energy breakthrough

SYDNEY (AFP) -
Australian scientists said Monday they had made a breakthrough in increasing the efficiency of solar panels, which they hope could eventually lead to cheaper sources of renewable energy.

In what the University of New South Wales described as a world first, the researchers were able to convert more than 40 percent of sunlight hitting the panels into electricity.

"This is the highest efficiency ever reported for sunlight conversion into electricity," UNSW Professor Martin Green said in a statement.

"We used commercial solar cells, but in a new way, so these efficiency improvements are readily accessible to the solar industry."

While traditional methods use one solar cell, which limits the conversion of sunlight to electricity to about 33 percent, the newer technology splits the sunlight into four different cells, which boosts the conversion levels, Green told AFP.

The record efficiency level was achieved in tests in Sydney and replicated at the United States government's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, the university said.

The prototype technology is set to be harnessed by Australian company RayGen Resources for solar power towers, which use sun-tracking mirrors to focus sunlight on a tall building.

Green is hopeful the technology can also eventually be used for solar panels mounted on people's roofs, which he said currently had a 15 to 18 percent efficiency rate.

"The panels that you have on the roof of your home, at the moment they just have a single cell but eventually they'll have several different cells... and they'll be able to improve their efficiency to this kind of level," he told AFP.

Green said strides in technology made in the solar industry such as the higher conversion levels were helping to drive down the cost of renewable energy.

He was confident that in a decade solar-generated electricity would be cheaper than that produced by coal.

© 2014 AFP

 

[Countrybumpkin]

"He was confident that in a decade solar-generated electricity would be cheaper than that produced by coal."

Only when the sun shines...

 

[Richard]

just shows that when you install these things they will be obsolete fairly quickly necessitating a further capital expenditure to replace them when the previous panels have not paid for themselves

alternative power sources must be fairly well developed before they are adopted, yes they will always be improved up to a point

 

[bbbuddy]

just shows that when you install these things they will be obsolete fairly quickly necessitating a further capital expenditure to replace them when the previous panels have not paid for themselves

alternative power sources must be fairly well developed before they are adopted, yes they will always be improved up to a point

Well this is a total misperception of solar, Richard. Once installed there is no "necessitating" a further expenditure, unless one WANTS to throw money at the latest and greatest. Solar panels last 20-30 YEARS, there is zero reason to replace, unless you have a catastrophy like hail damage.
On the other hand, if one wants to expand their system, it is perfectly possible to ADD the latest and greatest. For example, we started with 100 watt panels, added 200 watt panels, and then added 275 watt panels. The size on them all is approximately the same, showing the advancement of the technology. And our original panels still work just fine, thanks.

All of the solar advancements are terrific for new users, yet do not affect those who already have it.

 

[Hfcomms]

I've had the same experience. My oldest panel is almost 20 years old and still makes over 80% of it'd rated output.

 

[Richard]

good I am glad this is the case

 

[Codeno]

Solar panels last 20-30 YEARS, there is zero reason to replace, unless you have a catastrophy like hail damage.

All of the solar advancements are terrific for new users, yet do not affect those who already have it.

The few times I have mulled solar over, hail never crossed my mind. Do you have a protective covering system of some kind?

 

[coloradohermit]

Panels really aren't the problem with solar systems. Batteries are the factor that should best be addressed to make solar a viable option.

 

[Richard]

OK for those people who have installed solar panels recently or in the past has it been a cost effective exercise, has it reduced energy bills or allowed additional consumption etc

 

[West]

Panels really aren't the problem with solar systems. Batteries are the factor that should best be addressed to make solar a viable option.

Amen.

I want a new battery that charges and discharges about million times just as efficient as the first time and doesn't freeze get to hot or needs to be feed distilled water. I'll pay good money for it when it comes out.

 

[LightEcho]

I have been building a solar system and 10 years is a long time to wait... and may never come. When you might need emergency power next year, waiting 10 years will surely frustrate you.

Batteries are an expensive and deteriorating part. Maybe large capacitor banks will be developed for this.

 

[hiwall]

I want a new battery that charges and discharges about million times just as efficient as the first time and doesn't freeze get to hot or needs to be feed distilled water. I'll pay good money for it when it comes out

.

So use Edison batteries. Sometimes called Nickel–iron battery.

 

[FarmerJohn]

Panels really aren't the problem with solar systems. Batteries are the factor that should best be addressed to make solar a viable option.

Or grid-connected systems that alloy you to sell your surplus photovoltaic electricity to your local utility during the day while you buy fossil power from them at night.

Unfortunately, many utilities still refuse to do this.

 

[Gitche Gumee Kid]

Panels really aren't the problem with solar systems. Batteries are the factor that should best be addressed to make solar a viable option.

<==========================================)===================================>
This news item could be the very answer to the Achilles Heel of Photo Voltaic Systems:

GGK

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/27/a...actory-for-mass-market-electric-car.html?_r=0
Tesla Plans $5 Billion Battery Factory for Mass-Market Electric Car

By JACLYN TROP and DIANE CARDWELLFEB. 26, 2014
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Tesla Motors said on Wednesday that it planned to invest about $2 billion in a large-scale factory to produce cheaper batteries for a mass-market electric car within three years.

The company, which makes all-electric luxury sedans, indicated that it would build the factory in the American Southwest, without specifying where. Nor would it name its partners, who it said would invest up to another $3 billion in the factory through 2020.

Tesla said the factory would allow it to develop and cut the costs of its batteries for its vehicles more quickly, in part by producing finished batteries from metal ore instead of from components. Sales of its Model S sedan, which costs $70,000 and higher, have been constrained by a battery shortage, the company has said.

Analysts said that Tesla needs more batteries if it is to make its third-generation vehicle, an electric sedan that will be sold for less than $40,000. Panasonic currently makes batteries for the Model S.

Jessica Caldwell, senior analyst at Edmunds.com, said that for all-electric cars to be embraced by consumers, “the price needs to come down, and batteries are a big part of that.”

By building its own factory, Tesla would have more control over the supply and cost of its batteries.

“With this facility, we feel highly confident of being able to create a compelling and affordable electric car in approximately three years,” Elon Musk, Tesla’s chief executive, and Deepak Ahuja, its chief financial officer, wrote in a report last week.

The automaker expects to reduce the per-kilowatt cost of its battery packs by more than 30 percent by the end of the first year of volume production for its third-generation electric vehicle. At full production, the factory, known as the Gigafactory, would produce enough lithium-ion batteries for about 500,000 cars annually by 2020, more than suppliers worldwide produced last year.

Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas are among the states Tesla said it was considering for the factory. The finished batteries would be shipped to Tesla’s assembly plant in Fremont, Calif.

The factory will cover 500 to 1,000 acres and employ up to 6,500 workers, the company said.

Some analysts said they were surprised that Tesla announced the project without having key details, such as partnerships and a site, in place.

“I wasn’t expecting a two-step process, with bidding left,” said Efraim Levy, senior automotive equity analyst at S&P Capital IQ.

The potential uses for mass-market Tesla vehicles go far beyond transportation and could help redefine the relationship between consumers and their cars.

Government officials and entrepreneurs have for years envisioned a future in which owners can use electric vehicles as power sources for their homes or sell electricity to utilities in times of high demand, which could help stabilize the power grid.

Mr. Musk is also chairman of the residential solar power company SolarCity, which is already moving in that direction, using Tesla battery packs for solar customers to store power from their rooftop arrays for use at night, as well as a system for businesses to help them reduce their need for power from the grid.

Other car manufacturers are experimenting as well. Last year, Ford Motor announced a partnership including SunPower and Whirlpool to demonstrate how families can reduce their electricity bills by using electric vehicles in conjunction with home appliances.

Though electric vehicles — and the kind of technology needed to use them as miniature mobile power plants — have been slow to catch on, analysts say that the market for them will grow, especially with gas prices remaining high. In January, Navigant Research predicted that by 2022, there would be more than 35 million of them on roads worldwide.

Tesla said it would partly finance the factory by issuing $1.6 billion in convertible senior notes in a public offering.

Tesla’s stock soared to a record this week after news of the company’s robust production outlook and the Model S’s rating as “best overall” vehicle by Consumer Reports in its annual ranking.

Another story , shows an architect's rendition of the proposed factory.
http://www.teslamotors.com/about/pr...ected-official-site-tesla-battery-gigafactory
Correction: March 1, 2014

An article on Thursday about Tesla Motors’ plans for a large-scale lithium-ion battery factory misstated the expected production capacity of the factory. By 2020, it is expected to produce enough batteries for 500,000 cars annually, not 500,000 batteries. (Each Tesla uses thousands of individual lithium-ion batteries in its battery pack.)

 

[Christian for Israel]

Amen.

I want a new battery that charges and discharges about million times just as efficient as the first time and doesn't freeze get to hot or needs to be feed distilled water. I'll pay good money for it when it comes out.

check out nickel/iron 'edison' batteries.

 

[ShadowMan]

.So use Edison batteries. Sometimes called Nickel–iron battery.

True...but, where are you going to get nickle-iron batteries? They haven't been made in this country for quite some time and the last factory to make them that i know of was over in Eastern Europe and I don't believe they are still being manufactured there anymore. Not to mention that they are huge and HEAVY! Not a problem for solar home use, but forget it for any form of electric transportation.

Batteries, electrical storage, are the Achilles Heel of alternative technology. We need to come up with something better than one to two hundred year old technology.

 

[Publius]

I would hold off from buying any until they can publicly prove this and a few said something about the batteries and yes they need improvement or a replacement like capacitors that can store the power that have a longer life.

 

[orion41]

You can buy iron-nickel batteries now. They are very expensive however.

 

[hiwall]

where are you going to get nickle-iron batteries?

https://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
http://www.zappworks.com/

 

[mechanic 217]

The ideal solution may be using an electric car battery pack that is charged from your home then runs your home at night, swapping between two packs this might work.

 

[bbbuddy]

OK for those people who have installed solar panels recently or in the past has it been a cost effective exercise, has it reduced energy bills or allowed additional consumption etc

In our case it is our electricity, and allows us to live off grid where we do. Our nearest neighbors are 2 miles away and on the grid. Their power fails and we never know it! We do have a generator to run a few times a year when there is a heavy cloud cover.

 

[bbbuddy]

Aquion batteries - salt water based, no off gassing, never needs equalizing, can be run down to zero, doesn't hurt to be run down and not refilled right away, expected to last 15 to 20 years, price not bad, and they just started selling them to individuals this year rather than to large scale customers.

They have increased the watts per battery by 25% this year alone. I plan to go to these soon. Meanwhile one of the Midnight Solar engineers has had them (Beta testing) for a year, he lives off grid, and likes them.

No corrosive materials. Only downside is their size at this point, so they don't work for mobile use now. Their footprint is about the same as the deep cell batteries but they stand 3 feet tall.. They weigh alot but come apart into units that weigh 8 pounds each so very easy to move.

 

[Freeholder]

When they get the battery issues solved, how about coating the entire outside of a vehicle with solar panels so it can recharge itself? I know they make flexible panels now, so it wouldn't have to be a boxy vehicle. (And yes, at least in much of the country, we do get enough sun year around to keep one charged.)

Kathleen

 

[von Koehler]

Aquion batteries - salt water based, no off gassing, never needs equalizing, can be run down to zero, doesn't hurt to be run down and not refilled right away, expected to last 15 to 20 years, price not bad, and they just started selling them to individuals this year rather than to large scale customers.

They have increased the watts per battery by 25% this year alone. I plan to go to these soon. Meanwhile one of the Midnight Solar engineers has had them (Beta testing) for a year, he lives off grid, and likes them.

No corrosive materials. Only downside is their size at this point, so they don't work for mobile use now. Their footprint is about the same as the deep cell batteries but they stand 3 feet tall.. They weigh alot but come apart into units that weigh 8 pounds each so very easy to move.

Looks interesting but I couldn't find out what their list prices are.

www.aquionenergy.com

A Unique Chemistry
Our unique Aqueous Hybrid Ion (AHI) chemistry is composed of a saltwater electrolyte, manganese oxide cathode, carbon composite anode, and synthetic cotton separator. The battery utilizes non-corrosive reactions at the anode and cathode to prevent deterioration of the materials. The water-based chemistry results in a nontoxic and non-combustible product that is safe to handle and environmentally friendly.

 

[Richard]

In our case it is our electricity, and allows us to live off grid where we do. Our nearest neighbors are 2 miles away and on the grid. Their power fails and we never know it! We do have a generator to run a few times a year when there is a heavy cloud cover.

that sounds great, never been there but AZ must have sunshine a lot of the time, say compared with the UK, how many days a year on average does the sun shine do you know

 

[Richard]

I've had the same experience. My oldest panel is almost 20 years old and still makes over 80% of it'd rated output.

as a matter of interest how long did it take to write off the cost of installation etc, I had this discussion some time ago with the British Wind Farm Association, they said it would take 15 years to generate enough electricity to fully write off the costs of building wind turbines, not sure how long they last

 

[Richard]

I actually saw a RHD Tesla car in the UK, biggish saloon

 

[Hfcomms]

as a matter of interest how long did it take to write off the cost of installation etc, I had this discussion some time ago with the British Wind Farm Association, they said it would take 15 years to generate enough electricity to fully write off the costs of building wind turbines, not sure how long they last

I have a piecemeal system. It was never intended to or designed to power the whole place. I'm a ham radio operator and the system is designed to power all my equipment in the event of an emergency or grid failure.
Besides that I have a DC water pump tied into it along with LED lighting in my radio room. If your looking at totally switching over to renewable power it will take deep pockets and you may never generate enough juice
to pay for the cost.

You don't do solar to save money or be cheaper for the most part. You do it either because you have to as there is no grid power where you are living, or your doing it to be self-sufficient and not having to depend on
somebody else to engender your lifestyle. For a total off grid type capability you have to look at many things. First thing is to cut down on your electrical needs. Takes a total rethink in your life style. You might have
to replace many power hungry appliances with more frugal ones. Most of your lighting would be replaced with more energy efficient ones, ect. And then because solar and even wind is probably inadequate to always
provide for the needs you have to include a propane or diesel generator as well.

If I was living in the U.K. I would certainly consider a hybrid solar/wind system. In winter when the sun isn't shining much or low in the sky the wind is probably blowing and vice versa. And then of course you have
to consider how big of a battery bank you need as well as the inverter to make electricity. If it's something your seriously considering then find a consultant in the U.K. who can run through all your options and lay
out the costs. I have a very modest .5 KW system with 4-125AH deep cycle batteries with an inverter. And then of course I have a generator as well for extended power outages/emergencies. There is no real
cookie cutter approach. In my small place my electric bills are only around $100 U.S. a month anyway. It would take a long, long time for that to pay for a complete system.

 

[West]

as a matter of interest how long did it take to write off the cost of installation etc, I had this discussion some time ago with the British Wind Farm Association, they said it would take 15 years to generate enough electricity to fully write off the costs of building wind turbines, not sure how long they last

IIRC...I've read that All of the large turbines need to be totally rebuilt every 10 years +- depending on use. So there is no pay back. Just a bunch of dead birds.

 

[hiwall]

that sounds great, never been there but AZ must have sunshine a lot of the time, say compared with the UK, how many days a year on average does the sun shine do you know

Well over 300 days a year.

 

[West]

Well over 300 days a year.

Yes that is great lizard country. A good friend moved out their to retire many years ago. After a few years went by I went down there to visit. His skin looked almost like the lizards.

 

[Richard]

IIRC...I've read that All of the large turbines need to be totally rebuilt every 10 years +- depending on use. So there is no pay back. Just a bunch of dead birds.

thats what I thought, though the wind farm people are not admitting it

 

[Richard]

I have a piecemeal system. It was never intended to or designed to power the whole place. I'm a ham radio operator and the system is designed to power all my equipment in the event of an emergency or grid failure.
Besides that I have a DC water pump tied into it along with LED lighting in my radio room. If your looking at totally switching over to renewable power it will take deep pockets and you may never generate enough juice
to pay for the cost.

You don't do solar to save money or be cheaper for the most part. You do it either because you have to as there is no grid power where you are living, or your doing it to be self-sufficient and not having to depend on
somebody else to engender your lifestyle. For a total off grid type capability you have to look at many things. First thing is to cut down on your electrical needs. Takes a total rethink in your life style. You might have
to replace many power hungry appliances with more frugal ones. Most of your lighting would be replaced with more energy efficient ones, ect. And then because solar and even wind is probably inadequate to always
provide for the needs you have to include a propane or diesel generator as well.

If I was living in the U.K. I would certainly consider a hybrid solar/wind system. In winter when the sun isn't shining much or low in the sky the wind is probably blowing and vice versa. And then of course you have
to consider how big of a battery bank you need as well as the inverter to make electricity. If it's something your seriously considering then find a consultant in the U.K. who can run through all your options and lay
out the costs. I have a very modest .5 KW system with 4-125AH deep cycle batteries with an inverter. And then of course I have a generator as well for extended power outages/emergencies. There is no real
cookie cutter approach. In my small place my electric bills are only around $100 U.S. a month anyway. It would take a long, long time for that to pay for a complete system.

There are a few houses with solar panels in the UK, I think the Govt were offering a subsidy, now withdrawn, I'd probably see if I could ask someone who's had them installed to find out the pros and the cons etc. My house is Grade II listed (i.e. old, of architectural interest in a conservation area) so I couldn't get planning permission to alter the appearance of the property by installing panels, I'm not even allowed to install double glazing. I don't know the experience of house owners who've got them but have heard that the houses with panels are or may be difficult to sell. I have got fairly efficient appliances, e.g. washing machine A+++ which only costs a few pence per wash, I've got smart meters installed so we can monitor both gas and electric usage fairly closely. Electricity use is quite low, the main cost is natural gas CH which works out at £2.00 a day for 4 hours or £5.00 on all day during the winter, so with some management utility bills can be kept to a minimum.

There are few if any domestic wind turbines in the UK, well I haven't seen any in my travels I think people with large properties are beginning to install heat pumps and maybe solar panels on outhouses but it is a performance installing heat pumps, again not sure how cost effective they are.

sunshine in the UK

Mean sunshine hours in London, England range from 1:15 for each day in December to 6:52 for every day in June
There is an average of 1460 hours of sunlight per year (of a possible 4383) with an average of 3:59 of sunlight per day.
It is sunny 33.3% of daylight hours. The remaining 66.7% of daylight hours are likely cloudy or with shade, haze or low sun intensity.

 

[hiwall]

Yes that is great lizard country. A good friend moved out their to retire many years ago. After a few years went by I went down there to visit. His skin looked almost like the lizards.

Man I would hate to be the one to tell my wife she looked like a lizard!

 

[bbbuddy]

I have a piecemeal system. It was never intended to or designed to power the whole place. I'm a ham radio operator and the system is designed to power all my equipment in the event of an emergency or grid failure.
Besides that I have a DC water pump tied into it along with LED lighting in my radio room. If your looking at totally switching over to renewable power it will take deep pockets and you may never generate enough juice
to pay for the cost.

You don't do solar to save money or be cheaper for the most part. You do it either because you have to as there is no grid power where you are living, or your doing it to be self-sufficient and not having to depend on
somebody else to engender your lifestyle. For a total off grid type capability you have to look at many things. First thing is to cut down on your electrical needs. Takes a total rethink in your life style. You might have
to replace many power hungry appliances with more frugal ones. Most of your lighting would be replaced with more energy efficient ones, ect. And then because solar and even wind is probably inadequate to always
provide for the needs you have to include a propane or diesel generator as well.

If I was living in the U.K. I would certainly consider a hybrid solar/wind system. In winter when the sun isn't shining much or low in the sky the wind is probably blowing and vice versa. And then of course you have
to consider how big of a battery bank you need as well as the inverter to make electricity. If it's something your seriously considering then find a consultant in the U.K. who can run through all your options and lay
out the costs. I have a very modest .5 KW system with 4-125AH deep cycle batteries with an inverter. And then of course I have a generator as well for extended power outages/emergencies. There is no real
cookie cutter approach. In my small place my electric bills are only around $100 U.S. a month anyway. It would take a long, long time for that to pay for a complete system.

Since you did it piecemeal you probably started when costs were higher. We have a 110 refridgerator and chest freezer, Sat tv, Sat internet, not much in the way of lifestyle changes other than being good about turning off lights - and we just got some very bright led lights that use so little I suspect we'll get lazy about that.

We make 240 volts from our inverter so we can run our 1hp 240v well pump during the daylight to fill our 3000 gallon cistern and to irrigate.
We have 3300 watts of solar. It DIDN'T cost the huge amount people see quoted, since I studied how to do it online and we put together our own system, plus we already had some wire, pipe, etc for infrastructure.

My husband is an electrician but knows nothing about solar - he still doesn't. I tell him what to hook up to what and he does it. He still doesn't understand what each part does, like the inverter versus the charge controller etc unless I remind him, because he never studied it or learned about it, he just hooked it up like I told him to. Too busy with regular work, relied on me.

So that means any of us here, who are self selected as being fairly intelligent, can do it with some studying. I learned most of it from http://forum.solar-electric.com/forum.php

The parts themselves are not mind boggling expensive. Our 4000watt 240 volt inverter was less than $2000 on sale. The best charge controllers are $500-800. Solar panels now run well under $1 per watt if you are a shopper. You can run an entire house for less than 10 grand easily..

 

[tm1439m]

Since you did it piecemeal you probably started when costs were higher. We have a 110 refridgerator and chest freezer, Sat tv, Sat internet, not much in the way of lifestyle changes other than being good about turning off lights - and we just got some very bright led lights that use so little I suspect we'll get lazy about that.

We make 240 volts from our inverter so we can run our 1hp 240v well pump during the daylight to fill our 3000 gallon cistern and to irrigate.
We have 3300 watts of solar. It DIDN'T cost the huge amount people see quoted, since I studied how to do it online and we put together our own system, plus we already had some wire, pipe, etc for infrastructure.

My husband is an electrician but knows nothing about solar - he still doesn't. I tell him what to hook up to what and he does it. He still doesn't understand what each part does, like the inverter versus the charge controller etc unless I remind him, because he never studied it or learned about it, he just hooked it up like I told him to. Too busy with regular work, relied on me.

So that means any of us here, who are self selected as being fairly intelligent, can do it with some studying. I learned most of it from http://forum.solar-electric.com/forum.php

The parts themselves are not mind boggling expensive. Our 4000watt 240 volt inverter was less than $2000 on sale. The best charge controllers are $500-800. Solar panels now run well under $1 per watt if you are a shopper. You can run an entire house for less than 10 grand easily..

10 grand, is that without government subsidies?

Roughly what size house are you talking?

Does that include batteries?

 

[LightEcho]

I bought a 6kW inverter- $2,900 (it is able to tie into grid if I choose that)
10ea 290W panels - $2,200
Charge controller - $500
16 deep cycle batteries - $5,400

Lots of peripheral crap. Easily another $5,000 for mounting, wiring & breakers, infrastructure. I was able to do it myself, probably saving another $5,000.

It is not a cheap way to go but it is a plan for long term grid-down scenarios. Right now I am paying close to $2,000 per year for electricity. With the system I started with, I can cover about half that cost. I am increasing power capability by doubling the panels right now. Then I can cover the full house load. It does not make economic sense, unless electric power prices drive higher or electricity becomes unavailable. We have power losses in this area due to storms and tree falls. I won't have freezer or refrigerator failures.

 

[bbbuddy]

10 grand, is that without government subsidies?

Roughly what size house are you talking?

Does that include batteries?

No subsidies. Size of house has no bearing, you must choose to heat with non electric, cook with gas or wood, etc.

Batteries...depends on what amount of watts you plan to use at night. We usually use about 2500 watt hours at night. So with deep cell batteries they must hold at least 5000 watt hours. For us right now that's 4 t-105s at about $200 each. But I consider us to be low on battery power...

Oh, I can cook with an induction cooktop during the day, use an electric toaster, microwave, and have a couple of 400/800 watt electric heaters, but only use them during the day when the sun is well out...

 

[bbbuddy]

Someone asked about hail...well you know regular hail, no problem, but some places get those baseball size once in a blue moon...gah, what can stand up to that?

 

[Rastech]

.

So use Edison batteries. Sometimes called Nickel–iron battery.

Massively failing in cost effectiveness.

A 250 amp 48v battery bank is $14,500. I can get a 330 amp 48v battery bank for about 10% of that, 5 year guarantee, likely to last 10 to 20 years with proper treatment (no discharges below 48.8v).

Similar likely duration for about 1/3rd the price of nickel-iron (there's three lots of 5 year guarantees in there too).