OT/MISC Anybody 'Joe Expert' on security doors?

[shane]

Needing a secure exterior door that'll be welded (or bolted) between two steel 4X4 uprights that are deeply & firmly concreted into ground. They both already have rebar from ground base inside and will later have that largely internal void also filled with concrete, too.

Looking at outfits like Steel Security Doors And Accessories | Doors4Security but am open to, and eagerly invite, better suggestions, or any other considerations re materials, construction, locks, etc.

I've watched too many videos of firemen readily defeating commercial security doors to not ask here first what I might better strive to do and, hopefully, too, without spending a crazy fortune.

TIA

Panic Early, Beat the Rush!
- Shane

 

[Dozdoats]

If the adjacent walls are not as strong as the door - why bother?

Pouring a vault? Put in a vault door.

 

[Dennis Olson]

JMHO, and you know I know nothing about security doors, but if you want truly secure, a buried concrete and steel bunker with a NORAD vault type door would be the only truly secure option.

 

[shane]

...if you want truly secure, a buried concrete and steel bunker with a NORAD vault type door would be the only truly secure option.

Talked to my buddy Ron over @ Atlas Survival Shelters earlier tonight,
he's $3500 - $4500 for blast doors, looking for what I can do for < $1K.

- Shane

 

[Dozdoats]

Any number of safe companies sell vault doors. Check locally.

 

[Chicken Mama]

Befriend some local firefighters.

 

[Macgyver]

Is this a door that needs to be easily useable all the time or just something opened once and a while?
The latter could be built with a steal frame, plate door, welded hinges and recesses for those hockey puck type locks.
Won't stop a torch, but will stop brute force.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Talked to my buddy Ron over @ Atlas Survival Shelters earlier tonight,
he's $3500 - $4500 for blast doors, looking for what I can do for < $1K.

- Shane

Not much.

 

[Sportsman]

PM coming your way.

 

[Millwright]

Is your primary concern blast protection or intrusion?

Two different things.

 

[Dozdoats]

Important question ....

 

[Satanta]

Well, we have a Seel door on the front. Probly hollowand I'm sure someone with some training and tools can pop it but your average Goblin likely won't. For an added bonus I've considered drill in av 2' deep hole about an inch from it inside in the floor. The hole would be about 18" deep and maybe an inch and half Dia. See, the door sits on a concrete box. Square, hunk of cement that makes up the inside and outside entry. I've checked it out in the crawlspace under the house.

So, drill my hole then get a length of 1" rebar that is twice as long as the hole is deep.

Drop it in and now you basically have an impenetrable door block.

Want to make it fun? Do the hole 6" out from the door so, when they kick or smash it open it violently swing open, hits tthe bar and pops back at them with equal force.

Or, the door hits the pole and triggers a trap door that drops anyone on the porch into a 20' deep pit of 18" microspikes of Titanium-maybe as big around as spaghetti-poking straight up like punji sticks. In a 4x4' space you could shove a few hundred in there and they'd never scream, it could go thru body armor too.

Keep a couple of bags of Lime around so they don't stink up the place and fih out what's left for the yearly scrub brush burn.

 

[day late]

As a locksmith I have to ask a question. Are we talking about a door that is intended to keep others out of your property, or to keep others out while you are inside? Your answer makes all the difference.

 

[Sportsman]

Commercial doors open outward. Residential doors open inward. Go with a commercial door. There won't be any "Pushing it down from the outside".

 

[day late]

Commercial doors open outward. Residential doors open inward. Go with a commercial door. There won't be any "Pushing it down from the outside".

Sorry, but I can't agree with that. It is true most commercial doors open outwards, but not all. The problem with an outward opening door is that the hinge pins are on the outside. Even if they are 'security' hinge pins they can still be removed and the door taken right out of the frame. With doors that open inward, that leaves only the lock to keep unwanted visitors out. YES, locks can be overcome. I know, it's what I do for a living. But depending on how secure you want to be and how much you are willing to spend, plus a trick or two from people like me, that one lock could be all it takes to keep the bad guys out.

BTW you are talking to the guy who has opened the so called vault at the local Wells Fargo office while three armed guards watched my every move.

 

[shane]

Is your primary concern blast protection or intrusion?

Two different things.

Intrusion is my primary concern, not blast doors,
sorry if I was not more clear about all that earlier.

- Shane

 

[day late]

Intrusion is my primary concern, not blast doors,
sorry if I was not more clear about all that earlier.

- Shane

Doubtless you have heard the old expression, "Keep It Simple Stupid". I can and have gotten past many high tech locks by using nothing more than brute force. If you are inside and it can be done without causing upset to any other members of the household, (If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.) a simple barrel bolt will do the job. It can't be picked and if it is substantial enough and in a metal door frame, it will hold up to just about anything short of a battering ram. Please pm me if you would like to discuss details privately.

 

[shane]

As a locksmith I have to ask a question. Are we talking about a door that is intended to keep others out of your property, or to keep others out while you are inside? Your answer makes all the difference.

Job #1 is to primarily keep others out of my building when I'm gone.

I'm figuring I can creatively barricade it securely for times when home.

- Shane

 

[day late]

Job #1 is to primarily keep others out of my building when I'm gone.

I'm figuring I can creatively barricade it securely for times when home.

- Shane

For security reasons, I would like to continue this by PM. There are tricks I can tell you about and things I think you should do, but I don't want to talk about them in a public place.

 

[shane]

...a simple barrel bolt will do the job.

I'm a fan of them here.

I use three on one door in another building at night and one
of them is on hinge side, that even when retracted, is still in
the door frame hole just enough that you can't take the door
off the frame even after removing all the outside hinge pins.

- Shane

 

[Scrapman]

Doors that open outward don't get kicked in

 

[Griz3752]

I've never had one so have no personal experience but I think it's application/location driven.

I helped a friend ( a lock smith) install a couple of those central lock/multi locking bar units just because they were pretty bulky/heavy. What struck me was they didn't seem likely to prevent entry by a prepared intruder; slow them down, yes. Stop them, no.
I think a thug, doing a reece, will already know how to ID their possible use and, come equipped.
I think if the evil doer has the desire ti get in, he/she/they will amass the tools/resources required and get through the door system.

If it's a delaying action so you can escape or execute some other strategy, these will do it. I think camouflage and keeping the bad guys off your door steps may be a more cost effective way to go.

 

[Knoxville's Joker]

I've never had one so have no personal experience but I think it's application/location driven.

I helped a friend ( a lock smith) install a couple of those central lock/multi locking bar units just because they were pretty bulky/heavy. What struck me was they didn't seem likely to prevent entry by a prepared intruder; slow them down, yes. Stop them, no.
I think a thug, doing a reece, will already know how to ID their possible use and, come equipped.
I think if the evil doer has the desire ti get in, he/she/they will amass the tools/resources required and get through the door system.

If it's a delaying action so you can escape or execute some other strategy, these will do it. I think camouflage and keeping the bad guys off your door steps may be a more cost effective way to go.

All a thief needs to steal is time and no interruptions.

Military has doors that have hidden locks that if you do not sequence correctly will cause the intrusion system to go off and basically pepper gas you and smoke gas you and various other nasty things.

As a result of 2020 riots I figured building codes would change to where there were access corridors to stores that would auto shut at the detection of a thief or forced entry or attack and gas those entrapped, controlled by AI.

The key is to tier the entry. Past one door and then they have to do the same to a second door. And get past that then they have to do a third door. It will waste space but it will deter all but the very determined. Cheaper doors can be used in that setup.

But at the core you need to go with the more expensive doors. Unless you want to fabricate the door to save on costs. And that is what you are going to need. The kicker is keeping stuff absolutely square. And on the flip side those hidden lock releases you could build in as part of the fabrication process.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Doors that open outward don't get kicked in

But the hinges can be cut off.

 

[Knoxville's Joker]

But the hinges can be cut off.

Correct, unless concealed or recessed hinges are used such as something like this:

Concealed Door Hinges - Heavy Duty Invisible - Sugatsune - Multiple Finishes Available - Sold Individually

Buying products with these specifications: Concealed Door Hinges - Heavy Duty Invisible - Sugatsune - Multiple Finishes Available - Sold Individually?

www.hingeoutlet.com

 

[day late]

But the hinges can be cut off.

Correct, unless concealed or recessed hinges are used such as something like this:

Concealed Door Hinges - Heavy Duty Invisible - Sugatsune - Multiple Finishes Available - Sold Individually

Buying products with these specifications: Concealed Door Hinges - Heavy Duty Invisible - Sugatsune - Multiple Finishes Available - Sold Individually?

www.hingeoutlet.com

The locksmith says BOTH answers are correct. Even recessed hinges can be cut. Maybe not off, but enough to remove whatever is left of the hinge pins and the door removed from the frame. However, the recessed hinge pins do afford an added level of security. The fact is most burglars are of the smash and grab variety. They want to get in, grab what they can and get out before the flashing red and blue lights show up in the street outside. They know the longer they are outside trying to get in and the more noise they make, the greater the chance of those flashing lights. The truth is if you have ever seen the old film "Goldfinger" you know that with enough money and people willing to die for you, you can break into Fort Knox. You can not make any place burglar proof. As Gen. Patton said, "Anything built by man can be overcome by man." The most you can do is make it as burglar resistant as you can.

 

[Knoxville's Joker]

The locksmith says BOTH answers are correct. Even recessed hinges can be cut. Maybe not off, but enough to remove whatever is left of the hinge pins and the door removed from the frame. However, the recessed hinge pins do afford an added level of security. The fact is most burglars are of the smash and grab variety. They want to get in, grab what they can and get out before the flashing red and blue lights show up in the street outside. They know the longer they are outside trying to get in and the more noise they make, the greater the chance of those flashing lights. The truth is if you have ever seen the old film "Goldfinger" you know that with enough money and people willing to die for you, you can break into Fort Knox. You can not make any place burglar proof. As Gen. Patton said, "Anything built by man can be overcome by man." The most you can do is make it as burglar resistant as you can.

The other thing to do is if you do a inner security door you can add a force response mechanism to run off thieves.

Either a pressure pad that makes a noise, or a pressure pad that requires a switch activator to disable to prevent an alarm that is tied to a light to turn off and on. Simple circuit and if it ties to a horn you can add one that has a tamper alarm.

 

[BornFree]

Demo saws can get through anything the normal person could afford. Doors and walls. It only a function of time.

 

[Knoxville's Joker]

Demo saws can get through anything the normal person could afford. Doors and walls. It only a function of time.

Partly why you get hardened parts and pieces. Demo saws can cut through harder metals but if they attack it and it takes forever sometimes a thief gives up. That is what you want to shoot for.

Hinges are going to be your cheapest and most effective tool for cost versus security and performance. Plus, if you do overkill and line the whole side with nothing but hinges and maybe also do it so there is no room to stick a sawzaw through you can have security that way as well...

 

[BornFree]

Partly why you get hardened parts and pieces. Demo saws can cut through harder metals but if they attack it and it takes forever sometimes a thief gives up. That is what you want to shoot for.

Hinges are going to be your cheapest and most effective tool for cost versus security and performance. Plus, if you do overkill and line the whole side with nothing but hinges and maybe also do it so there is no room to stick a sawzaw through you can have security that way as well...

I realize that, which is why I mentioned cost. Thick hardened steal doors are above the budget of most.

 

[Knoxville's Joker]

I realize that, which is why I mentioned cost. Thick hardened steal doors are above the budget of most.

If you have a welder or plasma arc cutter you could just scab on plating to a door. Or, add a slide door that has a bolt lock. and the door is just a piece of two inch steel on a track and heavy duty rollers.

 

[Griz3752]

The locksmith says BOTH answers are correct. Even recessed hinges can be cut. Maybe not off, but enough to remove whatever is left of the hinge pins and the door removed from the frame. However, the recessed hinge pins do afford an added level of security. The fact is most burglars are of the smash and grab variety. They want to get in, grab what they can and get out before the flashing red and blue lights show up in the street outside. They know the longer they are outside trying to get in and the more noise they make, the greater the chance of those flashing lights. The truth is if you have ever seen the old film "Goldfinger" you know that with enough money and people willing to die for you, you can break into Fort Knox. You can not make any place burglar proof. As Gen. Patton said, "Anything built by man can be overcome by man." The most you can do is make it as burglar resistant as you can.

Correct. A very long time ago I was a street cop and even then if we stopped a vehicle for being where it shouldn't be at odd hours it was amazing what unusual tools, including generators and heavy duty grinders, would be found. Not always but often enough.
The harder the shell you want to wrap up in, the more costly; it hits a point of diminishing returns but, whats our families survival worth?
Being low key is surprisingly effective; I see vehicles every day w/ decals for all kinds of desirable PAW gear S&W, HK, etc. And the branded clothes? Just wear a rotating beacon for a hat for the love of .... that's like flashing a fat roll or a wallet full of cards.

 

[Sportsman]

You could always buy GSA rated doors and hardware that open outwards and not worry about it. Well, some of us could afford to buy them. The battery powered portable angle grinder changed the landscape of security some years ago.

 

[Knoxville's Joker]

Correct. A very long time ago I was a street cop and even then if we stopped a vehicle for being where it shouldn't be at odd hours it was amazing what unusual tools, including generators and heavy duty grinders, would be found. Not always but often enough.
The harder the shell you want to wrap up in, the more costly; it hits a point of diminishing returns but, whats our families survival worth?
Being low key is surprisingly effective; I see vehicles every day w/ decals for all kinds of desirable PAW gear S&W, HK, etc. And the branded clothes? Just wear a rotating beacon for a hat for the love of .... that's like flashing a fat roll or a wallet full of cards.

And that is the other thing you account for in building things. If you know grinders are going to possibly attack you fill voids with titanium dioxide.

 

[CaryC]

Intrusion is my primary concern, not blast doors,
sorry if I was not more clear about all that earlier.

- Shane

Not an expert so you may want to discard.

Anything that can be built, can be defeated. The only question is how long will it take?

The longer it takes the more prep time for those on the inside. I would note that Castles were built with this in mind. Moat, drawbridge, portcullis, bailey, kill area, and then another portcullis. Defeated with a Trebuchet.

However for those that don't have that kind of money here are some other items:

For robbery a couple of really good locks/dead bolts, with 3-4" screws for hinges, and bolt plates, and a good dog/alarm system.

For marauders in Shumer a cross barricade of some kind. From a 2X4 to a really nice steel one (Person of Interest TV series safe house had a really nice one)

For government forget it - drone strike.

And if you have windows none of that matters. Except the dog.

 

[Millwright]

And that is the other thing you account for in building things. If you know grinders are going to possibly attack you fill voids with titanium dioxide.

What does TiO2 do?

Metal thickness will delay progress with a grinder.

Try cutting off a piece of 1/2"x6" plate, it takes a while.

 

[cris52]

Door Armor Max 79 dollars on amazon

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SclZfnFD4M0

 

[Knoxville's Joker]

What does TiO2 do?

Metal thickness will delay progress with a grinder.

Try cutting off a piece of 1/2"x6" plate, it takes a while.

flash bang potential. smoke bomb. Basically sparks from grinder hit it and poof. Scares the crap out of whoever set it off.