CORP/BIZ Another way they might be coming after rental investors and other small businesses

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
This is just a hypothesis. Why this came up is we have an expat friend that is going through this with the IRS ... they downgraded his rental investments to a "hobby" because he lost money for the last two years running as a direct result of the CDC eviction and state level eviction moratoriums. The rule is that if you don't turn a profit in three of the last five years the IRS will downgrade your "investment" or "business" to a hobby. The reason that is important is because you can no longer claim business expenses.

Here's an article that popped up that tells me this is on someone else's radar as well.


@20Gauge might be able to add something to this but I was wondering how they were going to pile on to all of the small businesses their economic stupidity has been killing. This won't apply just to landlords/rental investors either. I can see small mom and pop type businesses, home-based businesses, etc. really getting killed with this kind of ruling.
 

dstraito

TB Fanatic
.gov has picked winners (tenants) and losers (Landlords)

The very nature is communism vs capitalism.

The whole thing is about the way of life tptb want for this country. Own nothing and be happy about it.

Classic redistribution of wealth.
 
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Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
.gov has picked winners (tenants) and losers (Landlords)

The very nature is communism vs capitalism.

The whole thing is about the way of life tptb want for this country. Own nothing and be happy about it.

Classic redistribution of wealth.

Yes ... and no. I say this with some caution because I don't want to sound like I'm rubbing anyone's face it anything, or supporting the commies-in-charge-at-the-moment.

You can still be very successful as a landlord, but it not for the faint of heart. You really need to understand it is a business and that you need to be educated on all facets of that business, locally and at the state level, as well as federal taxes, etc. It IS harder to get into the start up currently. It IS harder to survive when it seems like the .gov is against you. You WILL need to protect yourself against a serious profit haircut.

On the other hand rents and property values are continuing to go up and likely will for some time to come due to the tight inventory out there and the large number of people that must rent because they can't afford to/qualify to purchase their own home. Due to this, if you have held a property for a long time and have a low mortgage on it, you might not be able to sell it without causing yourself a lot of grief due to things like capital gains taxes. If that sounds like a good problem to have ... you'd make too much money ... trust me it isn't, especially if you need to sell because you want some of your time investment back due to age, health, etc. And finding a competent property manager is very difficult, it is why we formed our own property management company. But with that comes finding competent people that can work independently via a work order system and all of the other yada yada.

Going on 26 years in this business. We've been blessed and I fully acknowledge that. But we also have worked our tookus off and continue to do so. This is the type of business you can't just sit back with, manage is a verb and sometimes that verb is more than more people can handle. That doesn't mean that it isn't possible to be successful.
 
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20Gauge

TB Fanatic
This is just a hypothesis. Why this came up is we have an expat friend that is going through this with the IRS ... they downgraded his rental investments to a "hobby" because he lost money for the last two years running as a direct result of the CDC eviction and state level eviction moratoriums. The rule is that if you don't turn a profit in three of the last five years the IRS will downgrade your "investment" or "business" to a hobby. The reason that is important is because you can no longer claim business expenses.

Here's an article that popped up that tells me this is on someone else's radar as well.


@20Gauge might be able to add something to this but I was wondering how they were going to pile on to all of the small businesses their economic stupidity has been killing. This won't apply just to landlords/rental investors either. I can see small mom and pop type businesses, home-based businesses, etc. really getting killed with this kind of ruling.

First regarding your friend .... by expat does that mean he is in the USA or outside of the USA?
Rarely do rentals get downgraded to hobbies. so there has to be something else in the equation for them to do this. It could be as simple as him not being in the USA.

Did he make money the other previous 3 years?
Is he actively managing the property or is someone else?
Lastly I would fight it depending upon facts and circumstances. What those could be? Simply as you said.... I would have made a profit but for the CDC.....
Who represented him?

As for the 2nd part.....

With the Biden admin, the IRS has turned mean again. Just like the Obama years where if they have discretion and often when they did not, they would deny / penalize or do what ever they could to MAXIMIZE their revenue.

IF the 3.5 trillion dollar bill passes, everyone will see higher costs in both taxes as well as products. They are going after everyone and I mean everyone.
 

dstraito

TB Fanatic
Yes ... and no. I say this with some caution because I don't want to sound like I'm rubbing anyone's face it anything, or supporting the commies-in-charge-at-the-moment.

You can still be very successful as a landlord, but it not for the faint of heart. You really need to understand it is a business and that you need to be educated on all facets of that business, locally and at the state level, as well as federal taxes, etc. It IS harder to get into the start up currently. It IS harder to survive when it seems like the .gov is against you. You WILL need to protect yourself against a serious profit haircut.

On the other hand rents and property values are continuing to go up and likely will for some time to come due to the tight inventory out there and the large number of people that must rent because they can't afford to/qualify to purchase their own home. Due to this, if you have held a property for a long time and have a low mortgage on it, you might not be able to sell it without causing yourself a lot of grief due to things like capital gains taxes. If that sounds like a good problem to have ... you'd make too much money ... trust me it isn't, especially if you need to sell because you want some of your time investment back due to age, health, etc. And finding a competent property manager is very difficult, it is why we formed our own property management company. But with that comes finding competent people that can work independently via a work order system and all of the other yada yada.

Going on 26 years in this business. We've been blessed and I fully acknowledge that. But we also have worked our tookus off and continue to do so. This is the type of business you can't just sit back with, manage is a verb and sometimes that verb is more than more people can handle. That doesn't mean that it isn't possible to be successful.

But a landlord has risked their capital and work toward a goal. Not all investments pay off but they are trying, the fruits of their labor, the sweat of their brow.

Everyone is suffering, but to say tenants deserve to be saved at the expense of landlords is just wrong.

One group barely gets by one group is actively trying to better their lot in life.

Who in their right mind would think it wise to say rents do not have to be paid, UNTIL the end of an arbitrary period of time at which all the back rent would be owed. It was a a stupid proposition with no way for a renter to come up with that much money.

That means the landlord does not get it. So why is it ok for landlords to not be able to pay their mortgages? This is what I meant when I said losers and winners.
 
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20Gauge

TB Fanatic
But a landlord has risked their capital and work toward a goal. Not all investments pay off but they are trying, the fruits of their labor, the sweat of their brow.

Everyone is suffering, but to say tenants deserve to be saved at the expense of landlords is just wrong.

One group barely gets by one group is actively trying to better their lot in life.

Who in their right mind would think it wise to say rents do not have to be paid, UNTIL the end of an arbitrary period of time at which all the back rent would be owed. It was a a stupid proposition with no way for a renter to come up with that much money.

That means the landlord does not get it. So why is it ok for landlords to not be able to pay their mortgages? This is what I meant when I said losers and winners.
This why we have dumped several of ours. If we saw potential expenses rising in the future, we dumped it. We kept the gems.
 
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Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
First regarding your friend .... by expat does that mean he is in the USA or outside of the USA?
Rarely do rentals get downgraded to hobbies. so there has to be something else in the equation for them to do this. It could be as simple as him not being in the USA.

Did he make money the other previous 3 years?
Is he actively managing the property or is someone else?
Lastly I would fight it depending upon facts and circumstances. What those could be? Simply as you said.... I would have made a profit but for the CDC.....
Who represented him?

As for the 2nd part.....

With the Biden admin, the IRS has turned mean again. Just like the Obama years where if they have discretion and often when they did not, they would deny / penalize or do what ever they could to MAXIMIZE their revenue.

IF the 3.5 trillion dollar bill passes, everyone will see higher costs in both taxes as well as products. They are going after everyone and I mean everyone.

He's fighting it. And while he is out of the country he still closely manages the properties in question. His accountant is telling him he isn't the only one this is starting to happen to, be warned what might be coming. He's made profit in the past but he did sell over most of his portfolio to pay down bills and to buy some property where he is (Costa Rica). He makes several trips back a year and gets all of his mail at a state side address which a relative then goes through and forwards what isn't junk.

I personally think that it is the property investors/managers that operate via DBA since they only have a couple of properties that this is going to happen to most frequently. About 7 years ago we saw the writing on the wall and did a complete change and set up multiple LLCs, a couple of partnerships, a couple of trusts (one of them off shore), and a few other things. The problem we are having is that we are trying to manage things so that we do hit that next up tax bracket and the way rents are increasing (because of the number of units we own) it is a real balancing act. It is a toss up whether to sell the unit and take a hit for one year in capital gains or hold onto it, get a higher income, and then take the damn haircut every stinking year. We are just tired of the club fees of our silent partner called the US Gov. They aren't our "partner" because we want them, but because they insist on their cut like the blasted mafia ... a protection racket because they can, not because they really offer us anything in return.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
This why we have dumped several of ours. If we saw potential expenses rising in the future, we dumped it. We kept the gems.

We've owned many of ours for over 20 years and at this point they are basically all cash cows. I hate to give up the income but I also want some of my time back. The question though for us is a strategic one and until we know what Biden is going to do next year it is really hard to plan.
 

Sentinel

Veteran Member
Although they could try that, it is still three out of five years, not the past two. But the Government doesn't exercise that policy constantly, but picks when and where they want to. A good example of this is family farms. The Government doesn't want to shut them down (yet), so they don't exercise that provision. And, if they tried, the law allows for extenuating circumstances; the I.R.S. knows it would lose in court.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Yes ... and no. I say this with some caution because I don't want to sound like I'm rubbing anyone's face it anything, or supporting the commies-in-charge-at-the-moment.

You can still be very successful as a landlord, but it not for the faint of heart. You really need to understand it is a business and that you need to be educated on all facets of that business, locally and at the state level, as well as federal taxes, etc. It IS harder to get into the start up currently. It IS harder to survive when it seems like the .gov is against you. You WILL need to protect yourself against a serious profit haircut.

On the other hand rents and property values are continuing to go up and likely will for some time to come due to the tight inventory out there and the large number of people that must rent because they can't afford to/qualify to purchase their own home. Due to this, if you have held a property for a long time and have a low mortgage on it, you might not be able to sell it without causing yourself a lot of grief due to things like capital gains taxes. If that sounds like a good problem to have ... you'd make too much money ... trust me it isn't, especially if you need to sell because you want some of your time investment back due to age, health, etc. And finding a competent property manager is very difficult, it is why we formed our own property management company. But with that comes finding competent people that can work independently via a work order system and all of the other yada yada.

Going on 26 years in this business. We've been blessed and I fully acknowledge that. But we also have worked our tookus off and continue to do so. This is the type of business you can't just sit back with, manage is a verb and sometimes that verb is more than more people can handle. That doesn't mean that it isn't possible to be successful.
Kathy... this occurred to me recently, and do not interpret it as an attack or criticism in any way. We have a unique perspective as we were one of the last full-time, family dairy farms with registered cattle... Our small hometown had over 47 small (under 70 cows) family dairy farms in 1979. We were one of three left when we sold out in 2013... but there were three mega dairies, with 1500, 2250, and 6,000 cows.

This was directly and solely a result of government policies, and is clearly their desired result.

I'm seeing similar (despite the vast differences in the businesses themselves) changes in the rental business that bodes very ill for the small/medium landlords (knowing nothing about the business, I'm thinking "small" is 2-5 units, and "medium" is 6-25...?)

With the rent moratorium, allowing Blackrock to buy huge blocks of houses, huge zoning changes in California...

I think anyone currently in the business needs to either see if they gave any realistic chance (or desire) to become one of the "big dairy" equivalents, or start planning how to start exit planning, on a fairly short time line.

We were fortunate that our cattle sold at the peak of the market, and with our reputation, they did well. Cow prices haven't come near those peaks since. I had been timing the market, had proposed the milk market would next peak in 2014, and in fact, had been trying to talk hubby into thinking about dispersing the herd then. When his hip collapsed (thank You, Lord!) and forced us into selling a year "early".

But we still get industry publications, and I honestly think we were one of the very last to get anything more than beef value for 40 years of genetics. It really is going away... but a few folks did well in earlier times, and they think they'll come back.

Not happening.

I suspect, unless something drastic happens in the commie direction this country is heading, the mom and pop rental business will be the new family dairy farm.

Summerthyme
 
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Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Kathy... this occurred to me recently, and do not interpret it as an attack or criticism in any way. We have a unique perspective as we were one of the last full-time, family dairy farms with registered cattle... Our small hometown had over 47 small (under 70 cows) family dairy farms in 1979. We were one of three left when we sold out in 2013... but there were three mega dairies, with 1500, 2250, and 6,000 cows.

This was directly and solely a result of government policies, and is clearly their desired result.

I'm seeing similar (despite the vast differences in the businesses themselves) changes in the rental business that bodes very ill for the small/medium landlords (knowing nothing about the business, I'm thinking "small" is 2-5 units, and "medium" is 6-25...?)

With the rent moratorium, allowing Blackrock to buy huge blocks of houses, huge zoning changes in California...

I think anyone currently in the business needs to either see if they gave any realistic chance (or desire) to become one of the "big dairy" equivalents, or start planning how to start exit planning, on a fairly short time line.

We were fortunate that our cattle sold at the peak of the market, and with our reputation, they did well. Cow prices haven't come near those peaks since. I had been timing the market, had proposed the milk market would next peak in 2014, and in fact, had been trying to talk hubby into thinking about dispersing the herd then. When his hip collapsed (thank You, Lord!) and forced us into selling a year "early".

But we still get industry publications, and I honestly think we were one of the very last to get anything more than beef value for 40 years of genetics. It really is going away... but a few folks did well in earlier times, and they think they'll come back.

Not happening.

I suspect, unless something drastic happens in the commie direction this country is heading, the mom and pop rental business will be the new family dairy farm.

Summerthyme

I think I see what you are saying but think of it more like a dairy that has a single cow or a couple of cows vs a dairy that has 50 to 100 cows.

Think of it like this ... Are you operating as it is an investment or are you operating as if it is a business? It can be a fine line depending on the number of units you own but it is a line nevertheless. I didn't see what the CDC did as an attack on business but as an attack on investors. And small investors, due to the nature of the moratorium, and because they don't necessarily have as much cushion, took the bigger hit. Add to that the length of time you are in business to build your cushion and just lots of other factors.

Also, you need to be able to stay two steps ahead like in any business. And the more you want to expand your business the more forethought you need. Here's an example of what I mean. I can say that we positioned ourselves because we saw 2008 coming. After 2008 we doubled our portfolio, a portfolio that was already large by most people's scale.

And think about "a body in motion tends to stay in motion". The real estate market is the same way. For a number of years we've had a lot of competition with investment groups buying up inexpensive properties. These investment groups some times cannibalize each other and became quite large. Blackrock and all of the other large property investment groups have been positioning themselves for years ... years ... well before the eviction moratorium. It isn't the CDC moratorium that allowed the property investment groups to do what they've done, it is the fact that they've been doing it for quite some time and have been positioning themselves all along, gathering more and more investors and their money to continue building momentum.

I don't know the dairy industry but I assume that successful dairy farmers watch the seasons ... how many cattle do you sell one year, how man cows do you inseminate so that you wind up with a certain number of calves, etc.

What is going to keep the smaller investors from succeeding is their ability, or lack of, to have enough financial cushion to withstand the changes in the industry from year to year. If you need all of the income from the rent coming in to maintain your lifestyle then you aren't building or maintain your necessary cushion. Similar to an emergency fund equal to several months of living expenses.

It isn't a simple equation. Every market is going to be different. Yes there are some similarities but there are even more differences. And I honestly think that is what will get the big investment groups in trouble unless they have locals to manage what they are asking for rent.

I've already found several new investment groups to my area that are asking rents well above what is comparable and this is after they also put money into the property to renovate and/or rehab it.

Gonna get more interesting all over before it settles down that is for sure.

And in the interest of transparency, we own a lot of "cows" ... an good sized "herd" of them.
 
First regarding your friend .... by expat does that mean he is in the USA or outside of the USA?
Rarely do rentals get downgraded to hobbies. so there has to be something else in the equation for them to do this. It could be as simple as him not being in the USA.

Did he make money the other previous 3 years?
Is he actively managing the property or is someone else?
Lastly I would fight it depending upon facts and circumstances. What those could be? Simply as you said.... I would have made a profit but for the CDC.....
Who represented him?

As for the 2nd part.....

With the Biden admin, the IRS has turned mean again. Just like the Obama years where if they have discretion and often when they did not, they would deny / penalize or do what ever they could to MAXIMIZE their revenue.

IF the 3.5 trillion dollar bill passes, everyone will see higher costs in both taxes as well as products. They are going after everyone and I mean everyone.
just print
its worthless anyway
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
He's fighting it. And while he is out of the country he still closely manages the properties in question. His accountant is telling him he isn't the only one this is starting to happen to, be warned what might be coming. He's made profit in the past but he did sell over most of his portfolio to pay down bills and to buy some property where he is (Costa Rica). He makes several trips back a year and gets all of his mail at a state side address which a relative then goes through and forwards what isn't junk.

I personally think that it is the property investors/managers that operate via DBA since they only have a couple of properties that this is going to happen to most frequently. About 7 years ago we saw the writing on the wall and did a complete change and set up multiple LLCs, a couple of partnerships, a couple of trusts (one of them off shore), and a few other things. The problem we are having is that we are trying to manage things so that we do hit that next up tax bracket and the way rents are increasing (because of the number of units we own) it is a real balancing act. It is a toss up whether to sell the unit and take a hit for one year in capital gains or hold onto it, get a higher income, and then take the damn haircut every stinking year. We are just tired of the club fees of our silent partner called the US Gov. They aren't our "partner" because we want them, but because they insist on their cut like the blasted mafia ... a protection racket because they can, not because they really offer us anything in return.
Yeah that explains a lot. Being out of the country is most likely why they are doing this. The accountant should be able to deal with it. It will take time but it is doable.

They are most likely using the justification of his being out of the country means he doesn't participate in the property. There are hour requirements and as such he loses his standing as a business.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
We've owned many of ours for over 20 years and at this point they are basically all cash cows. I hate to give up the income but I also want some of my time back. The question though for us is a strategic one and until we know what Biden is going to do next year it is really hard to plan.
Cash cows are great. We had to balance increasing city/county taxes that run 175% of what the county taxes alone and possible major repairs. So we dumped the properties that were questionable. The family still has 5 properties so all is good. I guess we are no longer slum lords as we sold that property. LOL

Yeah, the city taxes more than the county for the city residents and then the county taxes them again. This was after the city said it would be cheaper to have them collect.....lol

Another interesting point. Trash in the city costs $266 per year, but it is only $125 in the county..... figure that one out. LOL
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
Although they could try that, it is still three out of five years, not the past two. But the Government doesn't exercise that policy constantly, but picks when and where they want to. A good example of this is family farms. The Government doesn't want to shut them down (yet), so they don't exercise that provision. And, if they tried, the law allows for extenuating circumstances; the I.R.S. knows it would lose in court.

You are correct, but it is expensive for court. Most can not afford it and that is what Biden is counting on.

Also it is 3 out the last five years. Not future years......though that was liberally understood to go both ways in the past, but it will not in the future if it is to the benefit of the IRS

Remember, a lot of the IRS guidelines are subject to the following " may" and not "shall". So it allows them flexibility.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
If it is a "Hobby Farm" yeah, potentially. They need the taxes to fund their schemes.
Hobby Farms are going to be the new thing. People who invested years and lost money as cattle grew or trees got bigger are on the cusp of losing their deductions due to this.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Yeah that explains a lot. Being out of the country is most likely why they are doing this. The accountant should be able to deal with it. It will take time but it is doable.

They are most likely using the justification of his being out of the country means he doesn't participate in the property. There are hour requirements and as such he loses his standing as a business.

He has an 800# and a website for his properties. He is the only one besides his stateside legal rep that can access the admin for them.

The issue here is that he has legal and financial resources to fight this. A lot of people won’t.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Cash cows are great. We had to balance increasing city/county taxes that run 175% of what the county taxes alone and possible major repairs. So we dumped the properties that were questionable. The family still has 5 properties so all is good. I guess we are no longer slum lords as we sold that property. LOL

Yeah, the city taxes more than the county for the city residents and then the county taxes them again. This was after the city said it would be cheaper to have them collect.....lol

Another interesting point. Trash in the city costs $266 per year, but it is only $125 in the county..... figure that one out. LOL

Yep, city being more expensive than county is fairly true regardless of location. Sucks don’t it.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
Kathy... this occurred to me recently, and do not interpret it as an attack or criticism in any way. We have a unique perspective as we were one of the last full-time, family dairy farms with registered cattle... Our small hometown had over 47 small (under 70 cows) family dairy farms in 1979. We were one of three left when we sold out in 2013... but there were three mega dairies, with 1500, 2250, and 6,000 cows.

This was directly and solely a result of government policies, and is clearly their desired result.

I'm seeing similar (despite the vast differences in the businesses themselves) changes in the rental business that bodes very ill for the small/medium landlords (knowing nothing about the business, I'm thinking "small" is 2-5 units, and "medium" is 6-25...?)

With the rent moratorium, allowing Blackrock to buy huge blocks of houses, huge zoning changes in California...

I think anyone currently in the business needs to either see if they gave any realistic chance (or desire) to become one of the "big dairy" equivalents, or start planning how to start exit planning, on a fairly short time line.

We were fortunate that our cattle sold at the peak of the market, and with our reputation, they did well. Cow prices haven't come near those peaks since. I had been timing the market, had proposed the milk market would next peak in 2014, and in fact, had been trying to talk hubby into thinking about dispersing the herd then. When his hip collapsed (thank You, Lord!) and forced us into selling a year "early".

But we still get industry publications, and I honestly think we were one of the very last to get anything more than beef value for 40 years of genetics. It really is going away... but a few folks did well in earlier times, and they think they'll come back.

Not happening.

I suspect, unless something drastic happens in the commie direction this country is heading, the mom and pop rental business will be the new family dairy farm.

Summerthyme
You are 110% correct. The government wants to deal with large organizations and not small ones. Much more efficient. So yeah, they are pushing for the industry to grow in size per operation.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
You are 110% correct. The government wants to deal with large organizations and not small ones. Much more efficient. So yeah, they are pushing for the industry to grow in size per operation.
Hmmm.. I'm not sure I'm happy you see it too! Once the government decides to "modernize" an industry, they've got ALL the tools to force the change...

Summerthyme
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Hmmm.. I'm not sure I'm happy you see it too! Once the government decides to "modernize" an industry, they've got ALL the tools to force the change...

Summerthyme

The problem is that many times it fails in efficiency. For instance, HUD assistance recipients are being priced out of the market and lack of affordability across the board is becoming rampant. This despite the “market rates/rents being part of HUD contracts. And this isn’t a bubble, this is a systemic change in the market. Even nationalization won’t fix this because of taxing issues from local all the way up.
 

20Gauge

TB Fanatic
The problem is that many times it fails in efficiency. For instance, HUD assistance recipients are being priced out of the market and lack of affordability across the board is becoming rampant. This despite the “market rates/rents being part of HUD contracts. And this isn’t a bubble, this is a systemic change in the market. Even nationalization won’t fix this because of taxing issues from local all the way up.
Agreed. In my opinion we are facing a paradigm change in the way our society works, (if it works at all).

Rents / Inflation / food prices / etc are not going to go down. The cat is out of the bag and people who have not raised prices for years due to pressure are not not only free but encouraged to raise prices by the market. Failure to do so will leave them broke and behind their competition.

We are also looking at the tech change we were told would happen, begin to really happen. As a whole things are moving faster than they have in the past.

We are in a situation where you either adapt or go broke. There will be a lot more riots due to this in the near future as too many just can't adapt and that is a fact.
 
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