EDUC Advice To A Young Woman Who Just Graduated From High School

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Wrote an expanded version of the OP...

When I had another young female relative graduate from high school.
I'm thinking of expanding it into a book.
Comments are welcome, especially from young women aged 15-23, or parents of same.

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Hi, XXX. This is your high school graduation present from your Uncle XXX. This is an essay originally written to help a young woman who is about to graduate from high school make better college, career, and life decisions for her, on college major choice, career, and major life decisions. Whatever you read in it that you see as inapplicable or disagree with, don’t let that keep you from getting what use you can out of the rest. Hopefully it will help you as well.

Enclosed with this is an excellent book about making college major choices: Worthless: The Young Person's Indispensable Guide to Choosing the Right Major by Aaron Clarey (2011).
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The biggest choice you will have to make in your life that relates to your college major is where you want to be on the “career vs. motherhood” spectrum. Everything in life involves choices that preclude other ones (choosing to go through one one-way door out of a room means you don’t get to go through any of the other doors out of that room). Think of it this way, that there is a maximum possible 100% of you to go around during your coming adulthood, and no more. That is, to the extent you focus on one major thing in life, you inevitably do something else worse during that time, if you do it at all. (Alternatively, you can tell what is truly important to someone by what they spend their time on.)

I’d say a 100% mother would be one who gets married two weeks after high school, staying that way till death does her and her husband part, and from the beginning with her first child is exclusively a stay-at-home mother who homeschools her 5+ children to the end of high school. A 100% career-oriented woman would be more like Maureen Dowd, who has never been married and has no children. She is known mainly for writing smarmy columns for the New York Times newspaper. At age 57 (long past her biologically-possible child-bearing days), she has publicly mused that she might like to find a husband and settle down “one of these days”. (At this point she might as well just wait a bit longer, and simply show up to when the will is read out a week after the funeral was held for some random man she never met while he was alive, for all the part she and he played in each other’s lives, with this being all the marriage she is apparently going to have in her life.)

Odds are you will want to follow some path in between, perhaps a 70/30 or 50/50 split, dependent of course upon you getting a man you’d want to marry to go along with it. Note that men are rarely willing to enter into marriage planning from the start to be househusbands, and few of those that are, are remotely attractive to women financially capable of supporting a family alone. When a married couple unintentionally finds themselves in a situation (usually from him being laid off and not finding a good replacement job) where she continues working while he takes care of the children and runs the house, in most cases if it goes on long enough, she eventually loses all attraction for him and then divorces him. So, I’d advise you to forget the idea of being able to be totally career-focused with a stay-at-home husband and children at home; there are no traditional wives available for straight women.

Be aware that very few people find sufficient meaning in life from just their career. The probability that you will be another Salk or Sabin (vaccine inventors), Isaac Newton (inventor of Calculus and much of Physics), the composers Brahms/Mozart/Beethoven, a Fields Medal recipient, or any Science or Medical Nobel Prize winner are substantially less than one in 100,000, along the lines of your odds of being killed by bees or lightning, and less than your odds of dying by drowning. That means it would make more logical sense to plan your life on one of those sad events happening, than it would be to plan on being a science Nobel Prize winner (or an equivalent level achiever) at the price of never having had a family, if you were to think that would be an acceptable exchange. People have to have had a family of their own that they raise well to find sufficient meaning in life, in the vast majority of cases.

I read an essay a while back by a woman who worked at a hospice for a few years. She noted that in her experience there (talking daily with people on their deathbeds) that two kinds of people typically accepted their upcoming death fairly well. One type was those with very deep religious faith (we’re talking level of commitment to a religious vocation typical only for clergy/nuns who were that for practically their entire adult life, like a Catholic Cardinal or a Mother Theresa). The one other type of terminally ill people who commonly handled facing imminent death reasonably well were those who had had children. People who were dying who had had neither of those to give their past lives meaning often tragically found the prospect of death to be an absolutely terrifying prospect due to seeing no ultimate meaning at all from their entire lives, even when death for them would be a release from horrible untreatable pain. I find that observation to be very believable.

Speaking for myself, I consider everything I have done professionally in decades of working to be minor in real meaning compared to the prospect being a parent to the two young children of my own blood that I’m deeply involved in raising. Only as a means to an end do I believe a career (and the education that has made it possible) is really important. For me, that would primarily mean providing for them, before that having gotten prepared to provide for them, and learning things over the years through my work and schooling that would help me be a better parent to them, such as improving their nutrition or being able to do a better job of overseeing their education.

Note that replacement rate (break-even, or really a bare minimum) for the number of children in a family is three children, not two, as having just two children is a narrowing family tree, as unstable and vulnerable to collapse as any upside-down pyramid. (Jeremiah 29:6 [note the use of plurals in that verse] and Genesis 9:7 cover this subject quite precisely for Christians.) As an example, consider recent failed Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney; he has 20 grandchildren, to Bill and Hillary Clinton’s grand total of one grandchild, so arguably he is leaving much more of a legacy than the Clintons from his time here on Earth. Even then, at just three children, there is no guarantee of grandchildren, and your line not disappearing from the Earth like the dinosaurs and the Trilobites. I have a male relative (now departed) who sired four children, 2 sons of whom have died leaving no children, while his two surviving children (both daughters, now well past childbearing years) had only ONE grandchild between them, who is mixed-race.

(Plus, it’s nice for kids growing up to have cousins, and as adults, too.)

Note that to have a 90% chance of bearing just three children (a bare minimum to avoid a family line eventually dying out, if is a repeated pattern in a family line), a woman needs to be trying to conceive by age 23. If it takes just two years to find a husband and get married, that means she needs to have made looking for a husband her TOP priority (ahead of school/work/all forms of recreation) by age 21 at the latest. If it would take her longer than 2 years, she will then need to become open to marriage (and actively trying to get married) even younger than that. http://tinyurl.com/o6exd8w

Note that most surveys on the subject show that typically families with children eventually wish they’d had at least one more child than they did. I hope you will make good decisions in that area early enough in your life when you still have all your options open on family formation. (Search online for the “quiverfull movement” for insight here.)

A parent doing a first-rate job as both the provider and as a parent providing nearly all care and oversight for one’s children is nearly impossible, no matter how hard he or she tries, so being and staying married to the same man if any way at all possible the entire time while raising a family to maturity is the keystone for doing the best you can as a mother*. How to do that is a MUCH larger question, but one of the most important you will ever consider. I suggest you ask several different older men who you respect whom you are absolutely sure would never want to date you even if they had the chance (so they’ll tell you the brutally honest truth), to get insights on this subject in preference to asking any woman. These days, women commonly clearly do not understand men any better than men seem to understand women, going by the ever-higher divorce rates and plummeting marriage and legitimate birth rates.

*Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/pmj7w2v if you have any doubt about this.

Regardless, make your decision where you will go as a mother vs. career woman carefully, soon enough, and correctly for you (and for any children you choose to have), and be prepared to live with your choice for the rest of your life. The saying is to be good to your children, as they’ll pick your nursing home. That is, how loyal you were to them, is how loyal they likely will be to you in your inevitable, often otherwise terribly-lonely, declining years, in a future where corporate and government pensions and Social Security/Medicare are getting steadily smaller and less dependable. And, remember that if you never have any children, that also means you will never have any grandchildren…

More on the Worthless book by Aaron Clarey: it advises that a person should pursue a STEM (Science/Technology/ Engineering/Medical) degree if they attend college, or learn a skilled trade (electrician, plumber, welder, millwright, HVAC repair, etc.) if they do not. I basically agree. The principles to keep in mind about college major choice are:

1) Go to college (or trade school) only to learn about a field in which people are willing to pay you for working. (If you have no idea what you want to study in college, you’re not ready to enroll in one yet.)

2) Commonly, for 4-year college degrees, the amount of mathematics a major requires is usually a good (if not perfectly reliable) indicator that it’s very possibly a good choice. By math, I mean the major requires Calculus and Physics courses (preferably requires the same math courses the Math and Engineering majors have to take), and for the very best-paying majors, it probably will require that many of its higher-level courses actually use Calculus and/or Physics. (Yes, I am aware that that means Engineering is usually a better choice than most or all Science majors.)

3) The amount of Chemistry a major requires would seem a good indicator of desirability as well, but so-so majors like Biology and majors with lousy economic potential like Oceanography and Marine Biology require a fair amount of Chemistry, so it’s not that reliable. The best gauge of the economics of a college major relative to Chemistry is that a genuine STEM major usually will require at least a minimum of two college Chemistry classes. (And, how far you go in Math determines how far you can go in Chemistry.)

4) Here are some examples of majors unlikely to give you good employment prospects. DON’T major in any of these fields! They are alphabetized to avoid giving any impression of priority:

Advertising, advocacy of any kind,"alternative" (quack) medical studies of any kind (including chiropractic/herbal/aromatherapy/homeopathy/”traditional " or “folk” medicine), anthropology, archeology, architecture, art anything, astronomy, aviation (if you want to be a professional pilot, get trained by and experience through serving in the military; civilian entry-level pilots make very little money and typically can’t pay off their school loans, the same as most gourmet chefs who go through culinary school), business majors in most cases (exception: bookkeeping/tax/clerical courses that would help anyone in managing or helping administer a business, but commonly an entire 4-year degree in this is overkill outside of perhaps accounting), child “development”, communications, cosmetology, counseling (everyone thinks they’re a perfectly competent counselor, and anyway medical insurance pays ever-lessening amounts for that service, like every mental health field, with ever fewer numbers of government-funded jobs available in it), culinary arts (unless someone else pays for your school, and this doesn’t mean “loans you the money”), drama, English, environmental anything, ethnic studies, fashion design, film anything, floristry, foreign languages in many cases (it’s best to choose a foreign language at least over half a billion people speak and the number of speakers is not steadily declining with no apparent bottom, as French/German/Italian/ Greek/ Japanese are declining, while Hindi, the top two Chinese dialects of Mandarin and Cantonese, Spanish, and Arabic are not declining in number of speakers [so probably would be above-average language choices], and anyway foreign language fluency typically pays off best when is in addition to another skill), gender/sexuality studies, history, interior decorating, legal anything (half of all lawyers in the U.S. make barely $30K/yr and many are now suing their law schools over them being blatantly lied to about job prospects for lawyers), literature, journalism (print newspapers are going bankrupt right and left due to better-quality and mostly free stuff available on the Internet that hardly anyone gets paid anything like middle-class wages to write), marine biology (U.S. colleges produce over 100 times the workplace demand for employees in that field), marketing, media anything, music anything (it’s now mostly gotten for free on the Internet, except in person for peanuts for all but the very top performers, which you would already be if you were ever going to be one of those top performers), oceanography, philosophy, poetry, political science, psychology, public relations, purely theoretical anything, social work (gov’t-dependent degree requiring a master’s degree to make more than barely above minimum wage), sociology, sports anything, theology (it’s tough to get actual full-time jobs in the ministry, especially in numerically-declining denominations, which nearly all denominations that ordain any women are so declining, aside from whether or not your Bible contains 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2:12, or) or any major predominantly used in government employment (given the steadily continuing layoffs at most levels of government as their deficits worsen).

5) Minimize and/or avoid debt. I only see college loans as more probably justifiable than not for four-year degrees or beyond for Engineering or Medical/Dental schooling. Yes, that absolutely means that for many or most college students in most majors, they would have been better off not going to college at all than to go to college for those majors. Good graphic showing how student loans work: http://tinyurl.com/2955m47 (also at:
http://www.collegescholarships.org/research/student-loans/ ) Note again that trade schools commonly are very worthwhile economically IF they involve getting dirty while using tools. Examples include electrician, plumber, welder, millwright, HVAC, locksmith, firearm repair, and large-engine mechanic. (Upholstery/fabric anything/cosmetology/ haircutting/massage/pet animal vet assistant/ craft things predominantly women like to do or buy, no, don’t go to trade schools for any of those.)

Remember that traditionally college students are supposed to have at least 115 I.Q.s for college to not be an ultimately-frustrating waste of their time and (someone’s) money. Here is a thought-provoking chart showing how to relate SAT scores to IQ: http://tinyurl.com/2dymqs .

And, here are graphs on comparing IQ by college major: http://tinyurl.com/oftxmzz (just lop off the bottom 75% or so to see who probably doesn’t even belong in college in any major) and http://tinyurl.com/naqc6po .

6) If at all possible, live at home at your parents’ for at least part (ideally all) of your undergraduate college years. This is because a) it’s cheaper, b) you’ll be less distracted by things that don’t matter (i.e., extracurriculars and dating), and c) you’ll be psychologically closer to your family, who can be helpful during your college time in many ways besides just paying for it.

7) Attend community college rather than a 4-year school for the first two years of school (not two years of time, but the first two years of classes).
 

MinnesotaSmith

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8) Attend a public (state) college instead of a likely far more expensive private one that usually isn’t any better, unless you are either going to study to become an engineer via some place like Caltech/MIT/Georgia Tech (you’d better be REALLY good, like SAT math scores over 700), or you get scholarships (NOT loans!) that bring the price down to that of a state school. Then, you have to manage to not flunk out of such a high-pressure school.

9) CLEP Test/Advanced Placement out of what college classes you can. This applies fully for liberal arts course requirements, and cautiously for courses remotely connected to your major field (including math).

10) Good free online book on how to get an accredited 4-year college degree for under $15,000: http://tinyurl.com/p3trm8s

11) Link to article on how Americans can go to college in Germany practically for free, with all their classes taught in English: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

12) Good free website with many well-composed instructional videos on college subjects, primarily but not exclusively on math and science: https://www.khanacademy.org/

13) MIT allows anyone to audit (no credit, but you can learn about a subject for free) any of their courses in their entire catalog for free online, here: http://tinyurl.com/ny73z8z

14) Other websites for online learning: www.coursera.org (197 classes in 18 subjects from many colleges), www.udacity.com (18 classes in computer science, mathematics, physics, business.), www.codeacademy.com (programming), www.edx.com (chemistry, computer science, electronics, public health); www.duolingo.com & www.busuu.com/enc (both for foreign languages). Note that these sites continue adding courses & topics, so check back with them if you see nothing currently useful.

15) Surefire simple way to have more time every day to get things done while in college: do not own, watch, or have in your dwelling a TV set the entire time you are in college. Also put into storage til graduation all the video & computer games you own while you’re at it.

16) Go most days without going on social media even one time (Facebook, Google Plus, Myspace, Yahoo Messenger, Flicker, Tumblr, Instagram, Twitter, Tinder, Snapchat, Kick, Pinterest, Imgur, posting karoke on Youtube, watching funny videos there or on Liveleak or Google Video, all that sort of thing). As a college student, you’ve got other things to do that are far more important than playing Farmville, Candy Crush, Dazzle or Angry Birds, looking at pictures of cute kittens, or posting pictures or videos of your lunch, friends making funny faces, new clothes/shoes/ accessories, anything about a musical group you like, or your newest boyfriend.

17) Do NOT join a sorority or anything similar. You won’t have the time for that if you are majoring in anything serious, and if your major is sufficiently nonserious to the point you do have the free time available to be in a sorority, either change your major or DROP OUT of college and don’t waste any more money or time on being in college studying something likely economically pointless.

18) I have not looked at these sources in a while, but Peterson’s and The Blue Book were once the best references on which U.S. colleges offer which majors. At least one of these should be available as a hard copy printed book in all college libraries and the better high school guidance offices, as well as on the Internet, if less conveniently and perhaps not for free if online.

19) Few people have the discipline to complete lengthy online study programs. Your chances of completing a class or a program are considerably better if you attend classes in person. If you have to take some college classes online, maximizing the number of classes that you take in person, especially the tougher ones and/or ones in your major’s department, will increase the odds you will graduate. (Short, free, easy, and/or noncredit classes are fine; it’s difficult, multiyear-length programs you pay lots of money ala University of Phoenix for that I’m most cautioning you about here.)

20) Five years after leaving college, you will likely not even know where as many as four of the many, many so-close friends-for-life you had in college even live (or if they are even alive). So, don’t get overly hung up on putting too much time or concern into friendships you make in college. That especially applies for people who either have different majors from you (you’re somewhat more likely post-graduation to run into people with the same degree as you in the workworld, plus they can possibly be useful for networking if you stay in touch with them) or guys whom you are certain aren’t potential husbands.

This five-year rule will likely almost certainly also apply with full effect about your high school friends you have now, only excepting if you live near them AND neither you, nor they, ever move out of their parents’ homes.

21) A major should ideally lead to jobs that won’t easily be automated (as many will be over the next 10-15 years, e.g., truck driving/most manufacturing/much fast food restaurant work) or outsourced to someone in a foreign country, who will do the work for less than U.S. minimum wage. Any job that can be done via the Internet eventually will be, and that commonly means outsourced to the Third World. (Can you live on 5 bucks a day or whatever those people are paid over there, in order to compete with them? Not me…)

22) Not all Engineering majors are economically equal. Textile, Environmental, Biomedical, and Nuclear (unless you want a career in the U.S. Navy, since the U.S. nuclear power plant building outlook has been in the toilet for 40 years) on average are the least desirable choices. Mechanical and Civil are in the middle (so-so).

Chemical, Electrical, and Petroleum are the best-paying ones. I do not know enough to say anything about the prospects for Metallurgical Engineering, Optical Engineering, or Bioengineering degree prospects, so research the heck out of the job prospects for any of those three fields before majoring in one of them.

(For really off-beat Engineering programs, the University of Alaska offers a master’s in Arctic Engineering, while the University of Minnesota has a master’s program in Microbial Engineering.)

23) The best two schools in the U.S. for (probably) Geology and (certainly) Petroleum Engineering would have to be the University of Texas—Austin and Texas A. & M. – College Station, although the Colorado School of Mines (harder than Harvard to get admitted to there) and (for Geology) Berkeley (there are tons of really weird people there) are also academically very well-regarded. There are perhaps 25 more colleges that offer Pet Eng, and many more than that which offer Geology bachelor’s degrees.

For what it is worth, PE is currently the top-paying bachelor’s-level college degree in the U.S.

24) For Geology, that field is divided into soft-rock, hard-rock, and environmental/ geotechnical areas. Soft-rock pays the best (it’s what oil companies use), and is easier to get through than is hard-rock (mining-oriented), which requires more Math and Chemistry courses (same as the ones the Chemical Engineers take). I strongly suggest taking more Chemistry than the minimum required to get your degree, and also taking the Optical Mineralogy course (a Geology class required for hard-rock majors) if you choose to go soft-rock, though.

Be aware that nearly all jobs for Geology bachelor’s degree holders above low-paying technician level require mostly or completely working in the field (not usually in an office or in your home town), with lots (like over 75-95+% of the time) of travel absolutely required. Commonly, working field jobs in the oil industry means being on oil rigs in the middle of nowhere a thousand miles from home for months at a time. Environmental Geology is very dependent upon government spending, which as noted earlier is declining.

25) Geophysics pays better than Geology as a degree in the oil industry, but is in little demand outside it. However, since the oil industry is the main (and best-paying) employer of geologists, this is not usually a drawback. Note that Geophysics requires considerably more advanced math than does Geology, so is widely considered more difficult. It also teaches much less actual Geology, so arguably a Geophysics degree teaches less actual knowledge about rocks that does a Geology degree (probably equivalent to slightly less than a minor in Geology.)

26) Do not go to Veterinary School no matter how much you love the cute little kitties, puppies, and horsies. Dental and Medical schools are comparably difficult for gaining admission and little or no more demanding to graduate from, with far more economic potential. (However, do NOT go to a medical school in the Third World, such as in a country in the Caribbean, as you would probably never be allowed to practice in the U.S. or any other First-World country.) FYI, the U.S. Army is the only U.S. military service that employs veterinarians.

27) If you intend to go to medical school: a) plan to spend 3-6 months of 40-hour weeks studying for the MCAT so you will score high enough on it to have a good chance to be admitted to medical school; b) understand you will need to do hundreds of hours performing volunteer (means “completely unpaid and extremely menial”) work at a hospital or clinic; c) do not have a child or be married during or before that time (includes all of your residency), and d) if at all possible, avoid “pyramidal” residency programs (where they automatically flunk out some residents every year no matter how well they perform).

Frankly, if you have normal or more-than-normal regular need for sleep (if you commonly sleep over 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night), medical school would probably be a poor fit for you. You can also expect to almost completely give up all your hobbies and interests (includes nearly all dating) for over a decade if you aspire to go to medical school. That includes the time you were an undergraduate student, where you MUST get grades along the lines of 3 As and at most ONE B, every single term, in VERY difficult subjects, to have a realistic chance of getting accepted. (Dental and vet schools are reportedly a little better with respect to admission chances, but not very much.)

28) If you decide to major in Computer Science, be aware that in private industry that field’s age discrimination is often nearly comparable to that found by working as a high-end runway fashion model or athlete in professional team sports, e.g., severe, where many people with C.S. degrees cannot ever work in their field in regular jobs (e.g., with steady paychecks and health insurance) after their late twenties, very much unlike the sciences and engineering. This issue is somewhat worse for programmers than for networking people. If a programmer, you MUST get at least one internship as an undergraduate C.S. major, or you will likely never get actual programming work after graduation (just lowpaid helpdesk jobs for your entire career, many of which are night and weekend work). Many programming jobs require being very comfortable with working alone most of the time for much or most of your career, mostly or completely away from any other people.

The best paper by far on job prospects in the Information Technology field is probably Norman Matloff’s “Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage” at http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/glut.html. (Yes, bright Third World immigrants working at low pay are increasingly dominating the jobs in IT here, killing the wages and job security in that field.) The books “Decline and Fall of the American Programmer” and “Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer” are also useful guidance for anyone considering a career in IT.

Also, certificates of competence (like the ones Microsoft awards) are rapidly replacing Computer Science degrees as the top criteria for hiring in I.T., so it’s probably preferable to pursue such certificates over a C.S. degree for anyone aiming at a career in I.T.

29) Internships are actually VERY desirable for most college majors. If at all possible, get at least one as an undergraduate.

30) Majoring in either Interior Design or Architecture will likely result in you having essentially no income your first two years after graduation as you work to establish yourself professionally. (Veterinarians reportedly often have the same problem.)
 

MinnesotaSmith

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31) Nursing is much better than being a K-12 schoolteacher as a career path. (These are listed here together as both are traditionally popular for women who want both some kind of career and at least a partial family.) Nurse anesthetist, operating room nurse, nurse practitioner – there are many opportunities for career advancement out there for ambitious nurses with 4-year degrees. (Orthopedic nursing will likely kill your back if you’re in it long enough, though, while psychiatric nurses frequently get injured by patients, and pediatric oncology will break your heart if you have one.)

Comparatively, the move to online/computerized instruction by a just a few of the very best teachers will result in far fewer teaching jobs in the future that involve much more than babysitting (with wages to match). Plus, the teachers’ unions are getting steadily weaker, so the days of high, inflated salaries for large numbers of tenured (so can’t be fired) public schoolteachers are ending. Teachers in private K-12 schools make less money than ones in public schools, but are usually physically safer and much happier with their jobs than public school teachers. Too, private school teachers typically don’t get forced to teach horrible, immoral and/or anti-American things the way public schoolteachers increasingly are so required to do in more and more states.

Lastly, the percentage of children in the U.S. that are homeschooled by all predictions will continue to rise, and those children contribute to NO employment for professional schoolteachers. If you still want to be a K-12 public schoolteacher, at least specialize in teaching Science, Math, or Special Education, which have the best employment outlooks. Conversely, Elementary Education is the Education major specialty with absolutely the worst prospects for finding a teaching job.

32) Do not get a Ph.D. Not one in seven people who do this are glad they did so. The only possible exceptions are if ALL of these are true for you: an employer (other than a college, who pay graduate students almost nothing to live upon) or someone else other than you completely pays for all of it (so it does not involve ANY debt on your part); you understand you will probably never have a career teaching at a college or university (a horrible career path, now that retirees from university tenure-track positions are being replaced almost solely by poorly-paid adjunct teachers with zero job security and NO benefits like medical insurance); and, preferably is in Accounting, Nursing, or perhaps some kind of Engineering (where there actually are perpetual shortages of native-English-speaking Ph.D.s to fill teaching jobs).

And, the move to online classes taught to very large numbers of students by a few genius professors and computer software, combined with increasing wariness of student loan debt by college students (killing the universities’ budgets), will substantially lower the number of college teaching positions available between now and when you could possibly receive a Ph.D. (Organizations involved in massive layoffs don’t do much hiring in the positions they’re laying off from.) Please read this paper written by Gary North if after reading the above you still have any desire to pursue a Ph.D.:

The Ph.D. Glut Revisited:
http://archive.lewrockwell.com/north/north427.html

33) Economics rarely pays enough to justify studying it, at any level. A graduate student in Econ back in the mid-1980s told me practically no one in his department there was getting just a bachelor’s degree in it, with a master’s considered minimal to have any chance of employment in the field. (Only the few “Austrian school” economists have any predictive ability in any event; the Keynesian and Monetarist/Chicago school guys have been proven to be largely full of hooey.)

34) The average value of the MBA degree is also declining, as so very many people have gotten them in recent years, diluting its value in the job market.

35) A bachelor’s degree in Biology is not really that useful for anything beyond getting into medical/dental/vet school, and Chemistry is a better degree for that, going by admissions rates (and by what’s on the MCAT, the medical school admissions test). Microbiology is an economically somewhat more promising major than is Biology, while Biochemistry is a little better than Microbiology, and Biochemical Engineering and Microbial Engineering are still a bit better choices yet than Biochemistry. Chemistry often is more valued than any of Biology/Microbiology/Biochemistry, while Chemical Engineering is usually much better-paying than Chemistry. A Chemistry Ph.D. once told a friend of mine that a doctorate in Chemistry had approximately the same economic potential as a bachelor’s degree in Chemical Engineering.

36) Be aware that Field Biology/Wildlife Biology degrees tend to lead at best mainly to low-paid field jobs walking through mud counting dead animals in traps, low-paid jobs spending days or weeks at a time out on the water in all weather on unstable fishing boats counting dead fish, or low-paid jobs as game wardens walking through mud counting dead fish and dead animals that fisherman and hunters have collected. Game wardens also enjoy the bonus of getting shot at by game poachers and pot farm guards.

37) A degree in Forestry is typically not high-paying work. The saying is that it pays off partly in sunsets (scenery), given that most of the work involves living in or near admittedly relatively-desirable rural locations that are mostly wooded.

Also be aware that due to many years of low budgets, housing provided to field U.S. Forest Service employees, where most new Forestry degree holders have to start, is commonly outright slums. (And, game poachers and pot farm guards, both of which are criminals who are typically armed with high-powered rifles, don’t particularly care for Forest Rangers any more than they do game wardens, either.)

38) A short piece about career choices for women who want a family:
“A woman can be a neurosurgeon – or a mother (pick one): Age 22-23, she just received a Science B.S. degree, nearly essential for successful admission to medical school. (Most hard-science and engineering degrees take five years, not four.) Add a possible year for getting into medical school; that’s somewhere between ages 22-25 on entrance. Officially it takes four years to pass medical school, but many medical students have to repeat a year; her age would then be between 26-30 years old on graduation. Add in the 7 (yes, seven) years that is standard length for a neurosurgery residency (of over 100-hour work weeks, including at least two 36-hour shifts of continuous work, sometimes nearly 48 hours straight, practically every week), but note that many residents have to repeat a year of their residency; that’s age 33 best case/ age 38 worst case when she truly gets started in her field (out of school, and making more than near minimum wage).

Now, she probably has close to a quarter million dollars of student debt, while she’s been a poster child for deferral of gratification the past 10-15 years. Oh, sure, she’s going to want to work in her field a while before she tries to have a family (else, what was the point to all that work and self-denial for so long, and meanwhile there’s that 200,000.00 student loan debt hanging over her head), despite the awkward fact that 90-95% of her fertility is already irretrievably behind her before she finishes her residency, having silently slipped away during all those years of arduous study. She very probably has no husband yet, either; when would she have found the time to meet one, or keep one?

This is a classic example of why I note that the typical (if usually completely unintended) result for women of schooling beyond the bachelor’s level (especially before age 30) is “Master’s = not much of a family, and Doctorate = no family”. (I also call this “live like a man does, expect to give birth to as many children as a man does”). Much better planning would be for her to bear all her children during her twenties, and then go back to school in her forties, if she truly wishes to do so. As at that point in her life, she may decide she prefers instead to spend time with her husband and/or grandchildren, her choosing to go back to school may well not ever happen, to be sure.”

Unless you already know for certain that you intend to marry and start a family by your mid-20s at the latest (which I would applaud), I suggest that before your college graduation you read Sylvia Anne Hewlett’s excellent book on the subject of women juggling a career and having a family, Creating A Life. She points out that survey after survey has found that the vast majority of childless women earning over $100,000 a year are either childless or have at most one child, but only about 14% of those who were childless had preferred from the beginning to have their lives end up that way.

Too, being currently divorced or never having gotten married in the first place are extremely common for such high-achieving women.
Note that the odds of a mother conceiving a child with Down’s Syndrome begins steadily getting worse every year due to her advancing genetic age starting at NINETEEN years old. (Yes, two years before she can legally buy a beer, a woman is already on the downslope genetically as a potential mother.) Another related piece of information not widely known outside of fertility professionals is the life expectancy dropoff issue

“It turns out that there is a roughly even reduction in life expectancy in daughters with increasing maternal age (but not increasing paternal age, which affects health of children much less ) past starting at the latest by about age 34. Conceiving at age 44 [if you even could] would knock about a decade off the life of any little ones you'd want to put in dresses and put bows in their hair. And, it's not a case of "they just die at 66 instead of 76, with everything the same before then".

Rather, they'd have about a 14% reduced life expectancy (more likely to die during every year they’re alive) and reduced vitality (health) all through life, from the very first day you hold them in your arms and you tell you that you love them. It is apparently universal for all women, can’t be tested for (other than with a calendar), and can’t be avoided. It is probably related to universal changes with advancing age in ova cell organelles called telomere shortening, from most human cells only having a certain number of times they can divide.

This effect likely also applies to considerable extent to sons as well, but this is not as well understood. Further supporting these findings is what many researchers have consistently found about people who live really long lives (with good health and keeping their minds intact into advanced old age): they nearly always had very young mothers. (Health of cytoplasmic DNA, which comes exclusively from mothers and none from fathers, is apparently much of the reason for this.)”

These are part of the reasons that women should try really hard to plan their reproductive lives to be done using their own ova before the genetic age of 30 (with the younger they have children the better, as far as their children’s health goes). So, you may possibly want to consider spending the $20,000.00 or so it currently costs at a fertility clinic to cryogenically freeze some of your ova before you hit age 25 if you’re going to pursue a career that makes having a family at a more conventional age unlikely.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Even more...

39) Elizabeth Warren’s (yes, the Elizabeth Warren that may run for the Democratic Presidential nomination next year) book The Two-Income Trap is also very useful for perspective on what women face juggling work, finances, and family for married couples where both spouses have careers.

40) Do not go to law school, even if someone else pays for all of it. The employment prospects for new law school graduates are now just too lousy (very different than they used to be), and getting steadily worse. If you ignore this advice and do enroll in a law school, you MUST either A) go to one of the top 5 law schools in the U.S., or B) go to one of the next 5 best ones while being be in the top 10% of your class every single semester.

If your grades while at a non-top-five law school (e.g., not Harvard, Yale, etc.) for a semester are ever below that, even one term, DROP OUT, never to return to any law school the rest of your life, before you destroy your future with debt (often in hundreds of thousands of dollars) you can never repay or discharge in bankruptcy.

Also, that field commonly coarsens people who work in it, becoming more argumentative/unpleasant/cynical (rather like many police jobs, working as a telephone debt collector, being in the nonmedical part of the military if you’re a woman, etc.). Who would (knowing about it ahead of time) intentionally want to long-term become ever less and less the type of person anyone would voluntarily choose to spend time around off the job, such as with friends or family?

41) Classic jokes about liberal arts college majors that have substantial truth in them:

Q: What does a liberal arts degree holder say on the job?
A: “Would you like fries with that?”

Q: What is the difference between a professional musician and a large pizza?
A: The pizza can feed a family of four.

Q: What do you call a young woman who just received a degree in psychology, communications, English literature, sociology, or women’s studies?

A: You say that she graduated summa c u m latte. That is, all she can probably do on the job market after getting her college degree is to go back to the minimum-wage counter job at Starbucks she worked the summer after she finished high school – just four (or five or six) years older now, and with $80,000.00 in student loan debt she cannot discharge in bankruptcy to improve her life prospects.

Large debts hanging over the head of a young unmarried (both never-married and divorced) woman are most typically student loans, but these days are commonly also credit card debts. Her having such debts without the apparent ability to work and pay them off (includes the ability to restrict her spending at least as much as her earning a good income) in full, prior to seeking to become married (and getting that completed soon enough to still be young) is a classic example of what is technically called a negative dowry. Having one of those makes her effectively unmarriageable to most men she’d look at twice as a possible husband (e.g., steadily employed with a decent-paying career).

This is a result that is particularly common for the young women in America today who get liberal arts (e.g., non-STEM) degrees from expensive private colleges (which qualify them for almost no well-paying careers) while racking up absolutely enormous student loans.

Further, lots of bragged-about previous travel, especially lengthy foreign travel (such as through “Junior Year Abroad” programs many colleges offer, or taking off a year or more after graduation to travel since she had no job offers due to her unwise college major choice) in a young woman’s history commonly has the sole effect of giving this impression to many marriage-minded men: that she’s developed unnecessary expensive tastes he’d have to pay for and/or done lots of partying while she was hundreds or thousands of miles away from anyone knowing anything about what she was doing.

The “lots of partying” part (commonly permanently revealed in great detail to both prospective husbands and employers on Facebook these days) shouts to a man considering a woman as a potential wife: “she’s very likely had relationships with many, many other men whom she’ll always constantly compare him with and always wish she was still with one of them, unable to ever fully bond with him the way she was with them, never being happy being married to him”), making her more someone at most just to date briefly at most, rather than somehow making her more interesting or appealing to him as a potential wife. Proverbs 11:22 sums up in just 16 words what that does to a woman’s marriage prospects. (It’s somewhat like the many women in America these days that a man can often determine with a single quick glance choose every day to completely ignore the commandments in Leviticus 19:28 or Deuteronomy 22:5, so clearly aren’t Christian, the latter of which is likely to be important to him if he’s looking for a woman to be the mother of his children.) That objectionableness to potential husbands about a young woman’s having extensive travel experiences is tripled if she still has extensive debt and/or has gotten considerably older from years of time spent on such travel with nothing real in his judgment to show for it.

Also, note that men are not generally impressed by advanced degrees and/or high-powered careers (not even STEM ones for the most part) in prospective wives nearly as much as women typically are impressed with prospective husbands having those. For starters, he almost certainly doesn’t want to have to be in a constant status competition at home, too, the way he has to compete all day in the office, which a single woman having one of those would make him leery of. When a man who is looking for a wife hears that a single woman intends to make partner at a law firm, become an M.D., become a senior vice president at a large corporation, etc., all he probably is hearing is that she’d never have any time for him and any children they had, IF they ever even had any children together (so why in the world would he be remotely motivated to marry HER?).

Sadly, many or even most unmarried American women believe that them (those women) having advanced degrees and/or high-flying careers make them more appealing to men (rather than the same or less, both from having become older in the course of acquiring them, and her having less potential time each day available for him and/or reduced ability to bond with him longterm), which is probably another big part of why so many such women aren’t attracted to the men that are willing to marry them.

Then, those career-focused women either never marry at all, marry but get increasingly unhappy and eventually divorce their husbands (usually never to get a better one, or even one as good), or just are never happy as wives (making sure that they constantly share that discontentedness over the years with their husbands and children). It’s similar to as if the price on baked goods or fresh milk at a grocery store kept getting raised every day as the date they were baked or bottled becomes ever farther in the past; at some point they understandably just won’t sell at all, no matter how many potential buyers take a look.

A man who is a serious prospect as a husband has already GOT money and a career, else he’d not be looking for a wife; she needs to have something to offer him he doesn’t already have (and he can’t obtain through just dating) to get him to want to make the marriage “deal” with her. This is called “Comparative Advantage” in basic Economics class. So, a man considering marriage already has money; too, he almost certainly already has friends who share his interests. “Do YOU prefer his hobbies to the hobbies you have now?” is a good question to ask yourself before you can say “But as his wife, I’d be a better friend and companion to him than any of the crummy friends he has now!!”.

Remember, too, that a prospective husband likely eventually earning more money than you will be earning, comes at the price that you must be willing to move to follow HIS career, otherwise he’s facing divorce and the loss of his children the first time he gets transferred or laid off and has to take a job in another city. The other way around (him following you making out-of-town moves for career reasons) pretty much just doesn’t happen (women tend to lose attraction to men that obsequious). This is especially true if you intend to have children, even if before the children come your career brings in more money than his does, but then statistically the odds are high that you probably wouldn’t have wanted to marry such a lower-earning man in the first place.

Too, he can almost certainly get affection as or more reliably outside marriage. Wives in America increasingly tend in many cases to find excuses to just cut that off after just a few years of marriage, in clear violation of 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 about behavior for husbands and wives (even if she swore before marriage she was Christian), with nothing he can do about it except self-destructively file for divorce (and permanently lose his children and face probably getting bankrupted by the divorce courts), so wise men aren’t much motivated by that issue to get married anymore. (If you would tell a prospective husband that this isn’t true for you, you’d need to have an answer that doesn’t involve celibacy or divorce for the question “So what happens if he’s married to you and needs intimacy, but you aren’t interested that night, week, month, or year?”.)

Her looks, which mostly come from the combination of her age, her body weight, hair length, frequently pleasantly smiling, and having avoided drugs/booze/smoking/
excessive time out in the sun, admittedly do matter a lot to men of any age BEFORE marriage, though. No man wants to marry someone he’s outright ashamed for anyone he knows to see him with, but that’s somewhat more a case of avoiding a negative, than it is a positive.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Even still more...

So, a would-be wife typically has to have something major to offer a man other than income from her career, companionship, or affection, or there’s insufficient motivation on his end for him to go beyond just dating her to agreeing to marry her. That’s usually one of the following things (cue the stererotypical reflexive offended-feminist gasp, but look up the steadily worsening low marriage rates/late average age of getting married/ high divorce rates/low child-bearing rates of highly ambitious careerist women before you conclude I’m wrong here). She usually has to clearly offer him the prospect of one or (very preferably) more than one of:

A) The prospect of bearing his genetic children (note that “children” is a PLURAL word, as in “all the ones he wants”) she creates together with him AND substantially helps him raise. This does NOT mean “starting in infancy dropped off at expensive but lousy daycare 50 hours a week to be raised by poorly-educated strangers who may not even speak English well while the other kids there beat him up daily”. (If a woman who wishes to get married lets prospective husbands know that she’s inclined to homeschool her future children, at least for a few years, that is a BIG plus for convincing many of the better men she’s marriage material, since that is still somewhat hard to find in prospective wives.)

Note that any children she already has by other men do NOT make the idea of marriage to her (or even dating her) more appealing to most marriage-minded men, rather the exact opposite. “Ready-made family” sounds to a man about the same as how hearing that some bubble gum is “already chewed” really makes you want to spend your money to buy that piece of chewing gum.

How vulnerable is this to a man just hiring out this need? Very low risk now, but actually no longer impossible. For $30,000-80,000 or so, depending on where he has it done, an unmarried man can now pay for the services of an egg donor and gestational surrogate, and just get handed a baby. (Google “Toban Morrison”or “Ian Mucklejohn” for early examples; http://tinyurl.com/ovunvor .)

As long as he never marries a woman (includes “common-law” marriage from cohabitating) nor lets any women legally adopt his child, he faces zero risk of losing child custody in a divorce or relationship breakup. By comparison, the risk of losing his children is over 50% if he tries to make a family the conventional way in marriage (even higher risk with a woman in a romantic relationship outside of marriage, those are so unstable). Of course, unless he is independently wealthy and need not hold down a job (so can stay at home and provide all the child care for his children), he still has to pay for a nanny while he is at work. Replacing a bad nanny is far cheaper and quicker than going through a bad divorce, though, even if hypothetically a father was assured of keeping custody of his children in the event of a divorce (which he currently emphatically is not).

So, watch for there to be many, many more men choosing this alternate path to fatherhood in the future. (I would have advised my sons to go that route, if I had had any sons.) So-called “co-parenting” is just going straight to being a divorced father, without even the chance of being happily married, so I don’t expect many would-be fathers to ever go that route.

The best way for a woman inclined to be a wife to avoid getting shut out by a man choosing the Toban Morrison route to fatherhood (effectively a single father with permanent certainty of 100% custody) in his needs for childbearing getting hired out is this: she should clearly offer a potential husband multiple children, especially early on in his career while he is still relatively low-earning, since the egg donor/surrogate/hired nanny route for a single man is a financially very demanding way to have more than one child. Of course, an aspiring wife has to still be healthy and young enough to probably be able to bear him multiple children for this to be a plausible offer. If she is much at all into her thirties, or she has compromised health, forget it. The most such a woman could possibly offer him in this area is being an expensive, legally high-risk nanny.
Or:

B) Real (means lot of hours AND applying useful skills that are nonuniversal) helping with his career or business that she doesn’t ever quit doing before retirement.

Vulnerability to a man just hiring it out: moderately high. Not being able to afford directly paying for such help (because he’s just getting started in his career or with his business) would be one reason he might prefer a wife for this over just paying professionals to help him. Alternatively, it could be a matter of him not being willing to trust his business secrets with hired help, that pushes him toward preferring help from a wife for business/career assistance over hiring professionals. The best way for a marriage-minded woman to avoid being outcompeted by hired professionals in this area is either to have a major, serious (e.g., expensive to hire) relevant skill like a background in accounting//bookkeeping/tax prep/paralegal-type experience or training, or some knowledge specific to his career or business.

Here is where her also having a STEM degree can genuinely be quite helpful for cementing her marriage, if it complements his endeavors. She can also likely compete well in this area by seeking to join lives with a man who’s still relatively broke from just getting started, say right after his college graduation. (That means both of you are probably still quite young, like early to mid-20s at the latest for her, and not much older for him unless he has changed careers).
Or:

C) Reliably making and keeping a nice home for him. This means “wife personally regularly doing timely housework routinely completed all the way and daily competently cooking healthy meals that taste good”, NOT “spending all his money buying expensive stuff he doesn’t even want/spending all her time making craft stuff he doesn’t even like/getting lots of animals he never would have chosen to own, to all clutter up his house” or “managing household staff he pays most or all of the wages for, while spending most of her time while he’s at work sleeping until noon, sipping $6.00 lattes at Starbucks, watching TV, and posting on Facebook”.

Vulnerability to a potential husband just hiring this out over seeking a wife who would do these things for him: moderately high if he has any kind of upper middle-class income. This is definitely the easiest of the three traditional wife “help” functions for a single man to hire out. To help ensure a potential husband doesn’t think hiring a housekeeper or cook (instead of marrying) is the better way for him to go, you must clearly be cheaper for him than those (or at least show you’re able to do them for him before he’s become successful enough to afford hiring such help). You would absolutely want to demonstrate early on in a relationship that you are very good at those, reliable about doing them, and consistently cheerful about doing them. (This applies only to dating relationships that you hope could lead to marriage, but as an adult woman, there’s not much point to having any other kind.)

An unmarried woman who wishes to marry seriously damages her prospects by owning any inside cats. The reason is that cats allowed inside dwellings have a somewhat well-deserved reputation to men as commonly making houses unacceptably unclean to live in (and inside even 1% of the time counts as an “inside” cat). (This is without even getting into the issue of the contagious Toxoplasmosis brain-damaging parasites most cats carry.)

Pet animal ownership crimping a woman’s prospects for getting married is even more true if, God forbid, she owns any horses (latter known as “pet animals requiring their own separate apartment that cannot be located in town who eat dollar bills for food while requiring at least 5 hours of time every single day”). Currently owning either cats or horses (or more than one dog, for that matter, especially any your would-be husband does not like) when not yet married is a good way for a woman to convince many would-be husbands that he and the children would always come second to animals with her, so it’s better not to own any of those when in the market for a husband. Be aware that forever staying cat-free and horse-free may well be the price for you getting to stay married, similar to knowing that you absolutely should never, ever, take up cigarette smoking during your marriage when you’ve gotten married to a nonsmoking man.

Similarly, you cannot long-term get away with being an illegal drug user if either you or your husband intend to have any kind of career, any more than a man with a sufficiently high-level job who has to take his wife to business functions can have one with tattoos or facial piercings. Note that even if you lived in a state that has decriminalized marijuana, the federal government laws against it remain in effect. Likewise, even in such states, corporations that drug-test will still refuse to hire job applicants who test positive for marijuana. Illegal drug use is also a really good way to have the state’s Child Protective Services permanently take all your children away.

Instead, a man wants to marry the kind of woman described in Proverbs 31 verses 10-30, whose value to him is not mainly dependent upon her looks. Even if a woman starts out adulthood being unusually pretty, it’s guaranteed she won’t be like that for very many years. (The beauty of any woman is always compared to that of young women, not just to other women of her own age. There are no 36-year-old “8”s, “9”s or “10”s.)

The only exception to this is where a husband to whom she’s long-term emotionally bonded will always see her as she was when the youngest age he knew her, often called “Wife Goggles”. This is one of the greatest forces that can enable long-term stability of marriages, not widely understood by young people. Thus, women who delay marriage past their mid-twenties give away a huge potential advantage for maintaining their marriages in later years when her looks have largely faded .

So, she’d better have something else going for her besides how great she looks before she hits middle age (also known as “her mid-to-late thirties”). A loving husband (a man has to feel loved to be loving), secure enough in his marriage to long-term focus successfully on his career, who has created a family from the beginning and raised their children to maturity together with her, so is permanently bonded in affection to her, is traditionally the most common answer to that. Debi Pearl’s Christianity-based book Created To Be His Helpmeet eloquently if simply describes how to be such a woman, one that men want to marry, and want to stay married to for life, though the seventeen words of Proverbs 14:1 are a pretty good summary of how a woman can make her marriage most likely last a lifetime.


The other possible answers would be A) relying on government welfare such as Social Security/SSDI or B) her own high-powered career, but A) keeps getting cut back as the government is rapidly going broke, and trying to get B) all too often comes at the high price for her of no marriage and no children, with no guarantee of career success in return for paying that high price.

Remember that with few exceptions, like a very obese woman who loses all the excess weight*, as a woman gets older (past her early-mid twenties) she can in most cases attract only men who are on average many or most of increasingly less physically appealing to her, less healthy (certainly with fewer and fewer years left able to work, healthy and alive), less nice to her, less faithful, and lower-earning than those she could get while at her attractiveness peak that starts declining in her early 20s. (Also known as “men with other options stop putting up with drama from women they date when the women lose their youth and looks”.)

Again, to a man sizing her up romantically, a woman possessing fame, high income, or advanced degrees do NOT even slightly compensate for her advancing age, having no time for him outside her job, or having become embittered by life.

*At this writing, either one of (or preferably both) following a very low-carbohydrate regimen such as the Paleo Diet and/or spending multiple hours almost every day in intense continuous exercise has some hope of success in reversing morbid obesity. (The latter is unsurprisingly something almost no parents of minor-age children can find time for.) However, only gastric surgery such as gastric bypass or the gastric sleeve are more likely than not to succeed in getting most of the excess weight off and keeping it off more than 6-12 months.

So, the way to have the best husband you can have when you are 40 or 50 is to get the best husband you can attract before you hit your late twenties (also known as “hitting the Wall”), and do whatever it takes to hang onto him. Since most men younger than late twenties will not have peaked in their careers yet, if you don’t want to marry a man substantially older* than yourself, you’ll need to (and have every incentive to) be supportive and helpful in helping him (and inspiring him to) succeed.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
The last of it...

In military families, the saying for would-be officer’s wives is that “if you want to be married to a general, you have to marry a lieutenant”. It’s also said in the military that for officers, “Captains may be married; majors should be married; and colonels must be married”. An ambitious unmarried man is probably at least dimly aware of the civilian equivalent requirement for advancement past a certain point in his own field (if it is one like politics where being married is all but required past a certain level), so you can advantageously use that in your quest for marriage.

*The traditional wisdom on the limit of acceptable age difference between husbands and wives is that men can marry a woman as young as half his age + 7 years. So, a 24-year-old woman can reasonably look at men up to age 34 (34/2 = 17, add 7, = 24); a 32-YO woman, up to a 50 YO man, and so on.

Otherwise, if not offering him one of those three things I listed, a nearly totally career-focused woman wanting to get a decent-looking man with a good career who will treat her well to marry her is in the position of trying to sell sand to the Arabs, ice to the Eskimos, or seawater to people who live on small islands in the Pacific, e.g., a tough sale to make. (Just about the only men who’d seriously consider marrying her are ones who don’t make nearly as much money as she does, and not many women will generally marry a man who likely will always make way less money than she does, such as how women M.D.s rarely marry male nurses or schoolteachers; only you know if you are atypical of women this way.)

I would sum up that college and the college-age period in your life are extremely valuable opportunities, a time which you should use wisely and during which you should make decisions wisely. Don’t choose to major in subjects that judged by job prospects are really more hobby topics than good choices to focus on studying with a career (and perhaps a family) in mind.

If you’re genuinely interested in a “fuzzy studies” or “foo-foo” (negligible job prospects) field, I suggest you restrict what you do about that interest to just going to the library in your spare time and reading all you want about the subject. That way, you don’t spend a dime on this interest, and you preserve your having a future, by avoiding wasting years of your precious life while racking up huge debts you cannot repay because you have no marketable skills.

There are tens of thousands of parking lot attendants and low-end restaurant waitresses in the U.S. right now who have 4-year college degrees, many of whom are facing years and years of required student loan payments every month nearly as large as their incomes (so are typically unmarried, and with little prospect of ever becoming married).

I sincerely hope you will not pursue a college major or make other decisions that will make you likely to become one of them.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Mods, I did not realize this necrothread was on Main. I have no problem with it being moved to the Corkboard or some other subforum where it likely more properly belongs, since is not hard news.
 

Garryowen

Deceased
"I have a degree and I don't know shit!"

I think that was a statement from Scotto's niece. And I think that sentiment is more common today than any of us would care to think. Many schools are mainly devoted to producing knee-jerk "progressives": an oxymoron if there ever was one.

MS, I didn't read the second edition of your letter approaching the volume of a Russian novel, but I liked what you had to say. In general, higher education at present is largely a waste of time. Not for everyone, of course, but for most they would be better served by learning marketable skills. My cousin makes a good living by doing alterations for a large department store. Few women bother to learn such skills these days, mainly because their mothers, who traditionally taught their daughters, are in professional positions or full-time work, and don't have the time (assuming that they learned them from their mothers).

DW and I both have graduate degrees, and most of our lives we have supported ourselves using the skills we learned from our parents. We both went to good schools, and are grateful the experience, but, that is no longer the case with many, many universities now. Can anyone imagine a school having a professor of sexuality and pornographic literature? Or, hosting a convocation of "sex workers" for the students? And parents are paying for this?
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Thank you for your thoughts, Garryowen...

I supposed that I could condense my book into these:

1) STEM, trades, or don't go to college (and not all STEM and not all trades are worth it).

2) For women, post-high-school education mostly only is useful at all to the extent she is careerist-oriented rather than family-oriented.

3) Most women who pursue careerism tend to find it wasn't worth giving up family, and to the extent they pursued careerism, to that extent they made for later/smaller/lesser/shorter-duration/lesser-quality family.

4) Partying comes at a high, high price, that mostly isn't paid right away (but most definitely still gets paid in full by the partier, with extra charges laid on to anyone close to them.)
 

Terrwyn

Veteran Member
How about this. Get the going to college and working for someone programming out of your brain and starting your own business and then you won't get caught in the downsizing fiasco that so many of you on TB were caught in. But you can't talk sense into the ( the keep them barefoot and pregnant) crowd.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
I didn't find your point clear, Terrwyn...

How about this. Get the going to college and working for someone programming out of your brain and starting your own business and then you won't get caught in the downsizing fiasco that so many of you on TB were caught in. But you can't talk sense into the ( the keep them barefoot and pregnant) crowd.

Were you advising women to live even more the lifestyle of a man (than they tend to do today)?

Both editions of my (now approaching book-length as Garryowen noted) had this piece of pungent commentary I believe to be true about women's lives:
"Live like a man does, expect to give birth to as many children as a man does".

Failure to reproduce is by definition being a biological failure. To the extent a woman focuses on careerism, it comes at the expense of motherhood. A 30% careerist woman only ends up maximally possibly being a 70% mother; an 80% careerist woman will thus end up in the 0-20% range, and we all remember from school how the 10-point grading scale worked...
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
There are some actually rather realistic points in this MS; but I think you are totally unrealistic that a young women is going to read the whole thing; I only made it through version one though I hope to go back over version II later.

If I were you, I would vastly condense it down for your target audience (aka your niece) to the main points of:

College these days if way over priced and pretty worthless unless you want the following careers and even then paying for it might make it still a bad career choice unless your goal in life is to have a career first and family second.

If you do want to have a high power career and even think you might want children; freezing your eggs is not a bad idea (even Nightwolf agrees with this) some astronomical number of medical students who are married end up divorced before graduation (I think it is like 80 percent or higher) so waiting to partner is a good idea if your going to go that route (unless you find a very unusual young man or perhaps older husband who is already established in his career).

Women were sold a lie in my generation (and I tell young women that) you can't "have it all;" you have to make choices and a major one is centered around having children; this will not totally be your own choice because it is a profoundly bad idea for most women, unless they are independently wealthy; to have children by themselves without a committed partner.

The Best time to have children biologically and stamina wise is when you are younger, like in your 20's; it is possible to manage later but it becomes much harder especially if you've never done it before; my Mom managed a second child pretty easily in mid-life because she already had me, she knew the ropes and it was easier.

There are other bullet points you can put in their for you own points of view, obviously you won't even agree with everything I just said but you get the idea; however I would also:

Leave out the "non-white" bit, my nephew is half Chinese, very intelligent and we are all very proud of him; his parents are married and his father is a professional and his Mom stayed home to raise him (and finished her degree once he was in school).

Leave out big words from the "man-o-sphere" world; why, not because you don't agree with them, you do but because a 17 year old is totally unlikely to understand them and probably won't sit still for a description either - instead DESCRIBE what you mean in simple terms. Honestly you mostly did this until you got to the last bit (at least in draft one) that might be fine for your book but probably not work so well for your niece.

Finally, I know that children and family are very important to you; but I suggest you be careful in stressing to hard that the choice is: have a husband and kids or train to do something; I say this for two reasons:

1. My Mother's generation often had no training outside the home and then found themselves destitute if their husband died or turned them in for a new model when the 1950's world fell apart into the 1970's era of "finding yourself" please, I know that a long of women did this too during that time period; but personally I saw a lot more of my Mom's friends in this situation than I saw deserted husbands.

My Mom thankfully did not experience this, but she did end up with a very sick and disabled husband and was able to use her teaching skills to run day care center and support the family; not because she wanted a career, but because she wanted her family to eat.

She also told me how so many women of her generation were trained in nothing and how she had to help her friends learn to write checks, pay bills and answer an employment advertisement in the 50's; because their husband had died and they had never done any of these things (and often there wasn't enough insurance money to support them for life).

Then there is also the "there are no promises in life" even if your niece honestly and with her whole heart wants to be a wife and mother; first she has to find a good man to do this with and even if she does, what if she can't have children?

It is this one that really got me, now today it is easier to find out these things; if I had known at 17 that I would be highly unlikely if ever to be able to have kids; I would have grieved over it somewhat but never expected it and any man who married me would know how things stand.

Not be fertile is not a sentence of loneliness, failure or means that no one will every love you; it just means you may have a different life path from a lot of other women and that's OK; there is often the option of adoption if you and your future husband really want children and actually a lot of men are perfectly OK with that (not all are, it is an individual thing) and there are also men out there with existing children; not as many as in the past but they still exist and many are widowers.

But no women (or that matter) gets a automatic ticket at birth that says "you shall be able to create children or you have failed in your purpose" instead you can concentrate on direct blood relatives if that is a special concern of yours; being an auntie is an important job and historically children with extended families of concerned aunts and uncles do better than those without. You can also volunteer to work with children, become a teacher or a pediatric nurse (or run you own day care center, the pay isn't great but it an ever-growing industry)etc.

I think in general though, your letter is well intended and makes a lot of good points; I just think that if you can't "boil it down" your niece is unlikely to absorb much of it - now if you give her the short version now and a copy of a book by her own uncle, well that she might read in the future and ponder.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Hi, Melodi...

So far that's 2 out of 2 posters on this thread that haven't read the second version.

Re the worries about women being left destitute and alone after marrying, there are three great answers that IMO deal with about 95% of that issue.

1) Life insurance.

2) Since most divorces in marriages (especially those with minor children) are filed for by the women, the control over whether or not their marriage ends is fully in their hands. Don't file for divorce, and you probably won't get divorced.

3) For the women worried that hubby will divorce them, I would ask them how they are stacking up as contributors to the marriage. No, this isn't about $$ they earn, so much as it is "how much would your husband miss you?" If he'd have no more sex deprivation, housework to do, or meals to cook, but his expenses, house clutter, and listening to complaints and criticism would substantially decline, a wife not wanting divorce would do well to do a quick 180 on how she is as a wife. I described the main things that a man can have at least some hope to gain from a marriage (in exchange for the high, high price it exacts from him). Why not advise women wanting to get and stay married to go down those items (really, only about 4 of them), and see what they can do to provide a husband with them? It's a rare husband who leaves for work every day with a full stomach, empty prostate, and confidence that his children will be well taken care of will constantly muse about replacing his wife.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Interesting this is still bouncing around.

A truly difficult undertaking ... and one I hope you have success with, as well as your niece.

I had an advantage growing up... most of us my age had the same advantage. The people who raised us and taught us were reasonably certain they knew how the world worked, and they knew how to get along successfully in that world, and moreover they knew what they needed to teach us in order for us to gat along successfully in that world.

And they were pretty much correct in all those assumptions.

Problem is, that world is GONE. And it won't be returning. We are all the way off the old maps into uncharted territory. We can still teach what worked for us, in our old world ... but that will most likely not be the world this younger generation will be dealing with for most of their adult lives.

One of my young cousins was really shocked not long ago when I told him the above. So I have been working to get him a little better educated in these matters. I don't know how well it will work out ... but so far he is still very interested.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Then of course, there are women like my Mother that married with the full intention of being a full time wife and Mother; whose husband became disabled and she was his primary care giver and supported the family until death took him; she then continued to support herself and her child still at home because she HAD to.

I will try to read part two; but while more women instigate divorces these days, simply having a husband is no guarantee of financial support; in fact one of the biggest strains I've seen on marriages are economic down turns that throw men out of work for long periods.

Back in the 1970's when I was a waitress, I suddenly noticed at a new job that most of the women were much older than me and they were new workers as well; their husbands had all be "laid off" from "The Plant" a year before and the savings had run out, the men in their 50's simply were not hired (50 jobs applications for every job, per someone who did the hiring) and so the women who intended to to be housewives all their lives (my Mom's generation and a bit older) went to work again in order for the family to eat.

Since then I have many times seen the extremely depressed husband who after a year or more of pounding the pavement ends up depressed and sitting in front of the TV (these days the computer) or worse just stares at the wall (or stays drunk) while the wife "women's up" and goes forward into the low-skilled job market because often she can.

Resentment grows, tempers flare and eventually she asks herself if this whole things is "worth it?" not all women do this but I know from conversations with friends that often women think it, even if they choose to stay.

Pretty much if the guy eventually snaps out if it and manages to find a job, things improve; if they don't it tends to depend on the age of the husband but very often he just sort of fades into the background even if he is still there - his family "works around him" because they have to.

Again, there is no promise that this won't happen to your niece, hopefully it won't but convincing her that her options are having a loveless life but a good career and/or having a man who will support her for life, don't really fly well in reality.

This is why I recommend that all women have a least a simple trade, even if it is as a waitress; that they can fall back on if they have to.

Also, you didn't address the issue of the women who nature (or God if you like) has made infertile, and that fact that she is not useless or a failure (I don't consider myself one) but she will have challenges especially in old age because like me, she will get twinges when her friends start hugging their grand babies; I have to look to my nieces, nephews and cousins instead and that's OK; it isn't the same and it doesn't provide quite the same sense of family security or continuation but it helps (as do all the cats lol).
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Hi, Dozdoats.
My niece appears at least for now to be a lost cause. She read less than 3 pages (with her mother standing over her to get her to put down her smartphone long enough to read that much), ran out of attention span for the rest of the summer, went with a gaggle of fellow female grads to California (>2500 miles away) for a month, where her whereabouts were largely unknown to her mother, after ticking off her mother and grandmother to the point that they withheld her graduation checks. Oh, and she's going to major in music. Like I said, lost cause, at least for now.

On freezing ova, there are multiple issues with that. The cells are so large, the loss rate from freezing is VERY high, with quality issues even on the best surviving ones. Too, it requires a cash layout in perhaps the $20K range, and needs to be done as early as possible. It should be done really in the first half of her 20s at the latest (and how many 20-YO women can and will save the dough for that on their own?). If a woman waits til early-mid-30s, I would tell her she missed the boat for using her own ova. She should either use donor ova, or just date and/or get a Sam's Club membership so she can buy her cat food in bulk.
 

Scotto

Set Apart
I had an advantage growing up... most of us my age had the same advantage. The people who raised us and taught us were reasonably certain they knew how the world worked, and they knew how to get along successfully in that world, and moreover they knew what they needed to teach us in order for us to gat along successfully in that world.

And they were pretty much correct in all those assumptions.

Problem is, that world is GONE. And it won't be returning. We are all the way off the old maps into uncharted territory. We can still teach what worked for us, in our old world ... but that will most likely not be the world this younger generation will be dealing with for most of their adult lives.

TRUTH!
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
While it is better to have children earlier, not only did a close friend (who lived with us during her first pregnancy with her husband) have a lovely daughter at 36, she had a second one at 38; both are lovely tweenagers now, very bright and totally healthy.

In the good old days (like the 1950's) in the East End of London (and other places pre-pill) it was common for women to have children up into their 40's and even 50's; families as large as 12 to 15 were not uncommon and most of the kids were fine.

It is simply that over-all, a society (like our current one) that TELLS girls that it is NORMAL to wait until the mid-30's to have children is a recipe for social disaster; Sweden which has one of the better rates of reproduction now in the EU (native Swedes that is not counting immigration) routinely settle down around age 28 and having two children between the ages of 28 and 35. That's still leaving it a bit late, but it is recognized that you need to start by the late 20's early 30's at the LATEST, if you possible can.

But like all "rules" there are plenty of exceptions, as for egg freezing, it isn't wonderful and for now is probably mostly for young women undergoing medical treatment or who have conditions that make waiting even a few years a profoundly bad idea (again that's from Nightwolf).
 

seraphima

Veteran Member
We required all of our three boys to take a year after high school to do something else. One entered a monastery (and is still there 27 years later), one worked in high end outdoor outfitting sales, and one worked and lived in a halfway house program for dysfunctional families. they all turned out well.

I worked in a college for 15 years before retiring. I have one piece of advice; do not take on debt. Pay your way through. I have seen too many younger people who are chained by their college debt and will never be able to buy a home. DO NOT GET INTO DEBT!!!
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
The odds are very much that's just not true, Melodi...

... a close friend (who lived with us during her first pregnancy with her husband) have a lovely daughter at 36, she had a second one at 38; both are lovely tweenagers now, very bright and totally healthy.

From both versions of the OP:

"the life expectancy dropoff issue

“It turns out that there is a roughly even reduction in life expectancy in daughters with increasing maternal age (but not increasing paternal age, which affects health of children much less ) past starting at the latest by about age 34. Conceiving at age 44 [if you even could] would knock about a decade off the life of any little ones you'd want to put in dresses and put bows in their hair. And, it's not a case of "they just die at 66 instead of 76, with everything the same before then".

Rather, they'd have about a 14% reduced life expectancy (more likely to die during every year they’re alive) and reduced vitality (health) all through life, from the very first day you hold them in your arms and you tell you that you love them. It is apparently universal for all women, can’t be tested for (other than with a calendar), and can’t be avoided. It is probably related to universal changes with advancing age in ova cell organelles called telomere shortening, from most human cells only having a certain number of times they can divide.

This effect likely also applies to considerable extent to sons as well, but this is not as well understood. Further supporting these findings is what many researchers have consistently found about people who live really long lives (with good health and keeping their minds intact into advanced old age): they nearly always had very young mothers. (Health of cytoplasmic DNA, which comes exclusively from mothers and none from fathers, is apparently much of the reason for this.)”
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I'll check with Nightwolf on this (he's the medical student) but I think that is somewhat of an unknown as many, many people historically have been born to older Mothers (you couldn't do much to prevent it before the 1960's except separate bedrooms) and there was never a connection like this made.

If you have the actual study (as in the scientific literature) I see if Nightwolf has time to look at it (he may or he may not, he's studying for the USMLE; the test that foreign trained medical doctors have to take to practice in the US; his medical school is top rated though, not a third world one).
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Melodi, as I've posted before, I lost the link on that study (to my great regret), but had the truth of it confirmed for me by a board-certified fertility M.D. in 2012.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Like I said, lost cause, at least for now.

So sorry to hear that.

As I told my niece re. her stepdaughter ... there is no shortage of dumb blondes in this world, no need to deliberately add to the supply. But she's doing it anyway, as nearly as I can tell.

Sad...

But my 16 YO cousin is looking forward to the driving school I paid his tuition for... I figured the automobile was his most risky exposure, and therefore this was likely my best initial investment.

http://legacy.montevallo.edu/atsc/TDC/YDRRC/
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Melodi, as I've posted before, I lost the link on that study (to my great regret), but had the truth of it confirmed for me by a board-certified fertility M.D. in 2012.
Ok sorry I missed that, while his profs at the Royal College of Surgeons should know if that's the case; he's back to school Sept first and this might be something he would find interesting; also makes a huge difference are a lot of technical issues like how large the study was, when it was made, were they other factories, where did the people live etc.

For one thing, you would have to be dealing with some pretty old figures; so even if true say for people born 70 years ago it might or might not be true now as way too much has changed; most women are much healthier in general and most later pregnancies are no longer a fourth or five child then they would have been then.

I am not doubting that you read this or that the Dr. quoted it, only actually interested in the details because I pay a lot of attention to this topic and I had never heard this (a lot of other problems with later childbirth but not this one).

Oh and I'm sorry our niece totally blew you off, but I think that is something to remember when you write your book; parents are going to be the most likely people to read it, and you might want to have a "cheat sheet" or "talking points" they can bring up with their teenagers; that might work better because teenagers are usually not known for long attention spans, even in the days before I-Pad's now it is probably worse.
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Actually, Melodi, it may well be that it's worse now, for women's ability to have healthy infants dropping after early 30s like a prom dress in the hotel room after midnight. With better medical care, you might wonder how? Easy; this isn't really subject to positive effect by anything M.D.s can do. And, I don't think I'd have to do much to convince you that a lot of people eat less healthily now than a lot of people did 30-60 years ago (how much uber-processed junk food did pre-WWII Americans eat?). Lastly, women who've had children certainly on average more easily bear them later in life than do those women who have never before so much as had a pregnancy go over 6 weeks. But, this is a cell organelle/cytoplasmic DNA issue, and (I'm not a molecular biochemist, though I worked in industrial microbiology for a few years), and it seems to me to not likely change much based on previous childbearing, being a genetics issue.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
Actually what I meant is that for such a study to be really secure; you would have to follow people for decades (that can be done) but any population even in the US (or Europe) that you could look at say for the full 80 to 90 years would have been born in the 1920's or the 1930's; therefore any shortening of their life span might or might not be due their Mother's age at time of birth; it could be or it could also be because they were the 7th child born in the middle of the Great Depression.

I'm not saying it is or it isn't; but living around Nightwolf has taught me a lot about how difficult "studies" can be; until you have at least several of them that don't contradict themselves and made sure all the co-factors are removed (which is sometimes nearly impossible).

It does not mean the research is invalid, just means it is hard to dry a hard and fast conclusion; I wouldn't suggest donor eggs for a healthy 35 year old; and I wouldn't worry too much about a women who get pregnant on her own at 40 or 45; except to make sure to test for DOWNS and understand that there are some risks; but then there are risks to very young Mothers too; just different ones (and to their babies/children).
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
For example, my Mother and her sisters were born during the Great Depression and abandoned by my Grandfather (they had been married, he ran off with someone else) when the little girls were 3, 2 and 1; the oldest child is my one aunt who is still living in her 80's.

The Middle Sister, my other aunt died first and the doctor thought it was partly because her health was weakened by childhood starvation, he actually said that at the time; now my Mother lived nearly 20 years longer but she was still nursing when the family fell into abject poverty.

So the older child who got better feeding during those first critical years is still with us (even though the diet wasn't great and was worse later) the baby that was nursing lived a good long lifespan and the middle-child no longer nursing but not getting enough food, dies nearly twenty years earlier.

You can't make a real medical study based on that alone, but it does show some of the complicating factors that have to be taken into account.

You add that to the REAL study done in Holland that showed that the grandchildren of people who starved as kids during the second world war (but survived) show real changes in their DNA and the way their bodies use and conserve food that make become obese a great deal easier than it should be. Before that study (which was a very good and extensive one) it was not believed that the experiences of grand parents could be passed down to the grandchildren; now it is pretty much an accepted medical fact (and not just from that one study alone of course).
 

MinnesotaSmith

Membership Revoked
Melodi, re Down's testing...

There are over 7 other nonrare chromosomal trisomies in humans besides Down's. It only accounts for (I think) at most a little over 2/3 of these. Genetic testing to check for ALL of these is much wiser IMO. That means either:

1) For natural conception (PIV/otherwise unassisted AI), waiting until early 2nd trimester and doing amniocentesis (which carries close to a 1% risk of termination, higher for multiples).

2) For IVF pregnancies, testing embryos via PGD (which we did for ours), so no termination risk AND no trisomy risk.

Not everyone would do these, to be sure (cost + #1 kind of pointless if a + result /+ abortion).

Oh, and the odds of Down's for a 48-YO woman are in in 12, but total trisomy risk is about 1 in 9.

======================================================================

Other important quote from both versions of the OP:

"Further supporting these findings is what many researchers have consistently found about people who live really long lives (with good health and keeping their minds intact into very advanced old age): they nearly always had very young mothers."
 
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