GUNS/RLTD A thought on gun confiscation in terms of AR pattern rifles

Dennis Olson

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
I just had an odd thought (shut up!) Let’s say that AR rifles are outlawed and they have to be turned in, or an individual becomes subject to confiscation through proscribed activities. Let’s suspend arguing that point for the purpose of this thread.) Okay, the cops show up. The person removes the upper from the lower and presents the lower to the cops. Shouldn’t that satisfy the law? The lowers after all are the components designated as firearms by the ATF.

Then, couldn’t the person just build a ghost lower and replace what was takin, without TPTB being any the wiser?

Today’s Ghost Gun technology raises interesting legal and ethical questions.
 
D

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Today's ghost gun technology merely means changes in the laws will be necessary.

Compliance is, as always, optional.

Should be possible soon to print a 3D plastic AR lower ...
 
nebb

nebb

Veteran Member
Don’t know Dennis....could they come back with a search warrant and tear your house apart. I don’t discount anything anymore.
 
Turret Buster

Turret Buster

Gruntpa
No. With your supposition and the way the gun grabbers have written gun law language lately (they have hired people who know gun terminology) the entire gun, lower, upper, stocks and scopes will be taken from you. Not me.
 
Dennis Olson

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Dozdoats said:
Today's ghost gun technology merely means changes in the laws will be necessary.

Compliance is, as always, optional.

Should be possible soon to print a 3D plastic AR lower ...
Click to expand...

The ability and pattern to print it exists today. The issue is that the current materials can’t take the pounding.
 
D

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
So print spares and rebuild.

I have seen aluminum lowers broken in half at the buffer tube joint as well.... (when they came loose on a parachute jump at 3000 feet, but still they broke).
 
P

Profit of Doom

Dismember
CaCaLand already requires you get a serial number for your ghost before building it.
Right.
If you’re going the ghost route, do it now and build a complete gun, then bury it.
 
L.A.B.

L.A.B.

Goodness before greatness.
The logic of pistol grips bad and evil will move on logically to pistols with pistol grips next, or may follow a truer agenda to pursue any feature / features that make a gun, purported to be a weapon more accurate.

Mass Mind Presentation of Nomenclature defining the gun industry is subject to hype, miss-information AKA (girly beauty salon Voter-Logic), and fake news disinformation campaigns.

Pure and simple.

The evil gun from the 60’s was “The-‘Uptown’ Saturday Night Special” that was finally redefined in the popular media as simply “Saturday Night Special” as a more PC non-ethic incriminating identifier.

In reality, with thermo plastic technology, draconian stipulated magazine sizes, THE KALIFORNIA GLOCK with 10 rounds in The Subcompact Versions is the new concealable-cheap-Saturday Night Special. But SHHHHHHHHHH! QUIET. Don’t let the watermelons in The State Assembly know they had a hand in the Hegelian design of The Kali-GLOCK. They might wet themselves and step in front of a wireless cable car or robotic youber.

Verbs are irrational designators when applied to inanimate objects that can do nothing more than oxidize at best. ASSAULT WHAT?

Logic B4 emoting Hegelian Change Agents= Bad-Specific-Scientific-NO GOOD-Must Be ORANGE.

ORANGE MAN BAD. ORANGE TIPPED SIMULATOR GUNS BAD TOO!

She how this insanity snowballs?
 
Dennis Olson

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
CaCaLand already requires you get a serial number for your ghost before building it.

Yeah, I’d jump right on getting that done.

/sarc
 
P

Profit of Doom

Dismember
Next they’ll require serial numbers for plumbing parts.
Everything I have is either inherited or bought over twenty years ago, nothing on any ban list.
I don’t have the several qualities that would lead to building a ghost.
 
Millwright

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
I would expect the law to cover guns and components...

Any barrel with a receiver capable of functioning in semi.

Any bolt that isn't manually operated.

Crap like that.

If they want to go there, it will be thorough.
 
SmithJ

SmithJ

Veteran Member
If the cops ever show up to get your guns they are taking everything that remotely resembles one. Just as they did in New Zealand where they told the guy “we’re not sure if .22s are illegal but we’re taking it and maybe you’ll get it back”

And they’ll take your “ghost guns” and your machine if they know what it is.

If it gets to that, your only hope will be to have some at a off site location not directly linked to you that won’t be searched.

Dennis Olson said:
I just had an odd thought (shut up!) Let’s say that AR rifles are outlawed and they have to be turned in, or an individual becomes subject to confiscation through proscribed activities. Let’s suspend arguing that point for the purpose of this thread.) Okay, the cops show up. The person removes the upper from the lower and presents the lower to the cops. Shouldn’t that satisfy the law? The lowers after all are the components designated as firearms by the ATF.

Then, couldn’t the person just build a ghost lower and replace what was takin, without TPTB being any the wiser?

Today’s Ghost Gun technology raises interesting legal and ethical questions.
Click to expand...
 
hiwall

hiwall

Has No Life - Lives on TB
It seems more likely that if it got to the point that police were searching homes for AR's , they would likely take any guns or gun parts they found.
 
colonel holman

colonel holman

Veteran Member
Dennis Olson said:
A “law” like that would never stand, as that would render any firearm that breaks into a paperweight. Direct constitutional violation.
Click to expand...

Any temporary reprieve at best. Note the next step about to unfold: since Rutgers Univ is considering taking down statue of T Jefferson because he was a slave owner... this reveals their next step after destroying all Confederate monuments, which is to declare the Constitution irrelevant and morally illegal since it was drafted by male Christian wealthy slave owners. Thus, 2A becomes irellevant along with the rest of the Constitution. Game on, finally.
 
Squib

Squib

Veteran Member
Dennis, I think I read an article once where a guy tried to use that approach.

Since the law considers the lower the actual firearm, a fella took several stripped lowers to a gun buy back where they were giving $100 per...the cops that were they put the kibosh on it.

As someone said earlier, they’ll make up the rules as they go along.
 
P

Publius

TB Fanatic
It would seem kind of dumb on their part to restrict only AR15's and if they did whats to stop We the People from adopting say the SKS rifle? The military views it as an outdated clunker a relic of the past.
Yeah not everyones favorite but known for easy to service and reliable.
 
Dobbin

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Profit of Doom said:
Next they’ll require serial numbers for plumbing parts.
Everything I have is either inherited or bought over twenty years ago, nothing on any ban list.
I don’t have the several qualities that would lead to building a ghost.
Click to expand...

Owner recently bought a faucet which had an applied sticker on the back of the bubble covering

"Warning - this plumbing component contains materials which have been proven by the State of California to cause Cancer in laboratory animals. Prolonged exposure to human tissue may result in injury requiring medical care."

THAT - there is reason enough to regulate the purchase, life-cycle, and disposal of this plumbing component.


You might have to turn in your broken component before they will give you another? And if you're a first time buyer - you'll have to prove "need." And be licensed/qualified by the state for proper use.


How many other articles of daily commerce can you think of which ingested or exposed to egregiously might result in personal injury to self?

Water comes to mind immediately.

Dobbin
 
alpha

alpha

Veteran Member
The more thought I put to this entire issue of specific gun confiscation events, I've come to two conclusions. The first is that when they come for any of your guns, they'll take them all... even those without serial numbers. Two, when they come for any of your guns... it's on!
 
alpha

alpha

Veteran Member
Unconstitutional Official Acts

16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256:

The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it.....

A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.

No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.
 
P

Profit of Doom

Dismember
Dobbin said:
Owner recently bought a faucet which had an applied sticker on the back of the bubble covering

"Warning - this plumbing component contains materials which have been proven by the State of California to cause Cancer in laboratory animals. Prolonged exposure to human tissue may result in injury requiring medical care."

THAT - there is reason enough to regulate the purchase, life-cycle, and disposal of this plumbing component.


You might have to turn in your broken component before they will give you another? And if you're a first time buyer - you'll have to prove "need." And be licensed/qualified by the state for proper use.


How many other articles of daily commerce can you think of which ingested or exposed to egregiously might result in personal injury to self?

Water comes to mind immediately.

Dobbin
Click to expand...

DHMO.
Deadly stuff.
 
P

Publius

TB Fanatic
alpha said:
Unconstitutional Official Acts

16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256:

The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it.....

A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.

No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.
Click to expand...



I have been trying to get everyone to understand this for a number of years.
 
T

Thinwater

Firearms Manufacturer
Certainly all those who have framed written constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and consequently the theory of every such government must be, that an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void.
— Marbury, 5 U.S. at 177.
 
T

Thinwater

Firearms Manufacturer
My latest "Ghost" in 9mm with the scope that finally arrived for it. If they outlaw AR's I will release my solid models for AR-9mm, AR-45, and AR15 for people to 3d Print and so on. These are my original, proven models and they can kiss my ass.

A couple of the bans prohibit parts kits, spare parts and even forgings, blanks and anything short of a untouched billet so keep this in mind.

I will also write code and release it for any common cnc mill to make an AR lower from a billet with instructions so anyone can do it. Screw them and the horse they rode in on.

I cant help the public with the bolt and carrier, you have to have the correct equipment and know what you are doing to make these. Same for most of the lower parts kit, I made them for about two years and there are a bunch of little parts and springs involved so stock what you think you may need now.


enhance
 
Racing22

Racing22

Crew Chief
Publius said:
It would seem kind of dumb on their part to restrict only AR15's and if they did whats to stop We the People from adopting say the SKS rifle?
Click to expand...

Which is why, when it comes, it WON'T be just AR15's... it will be a semi-auto ban.

All you need to do is look at New Zealand a few weeks ago as your template. Did everyone forget about the PM's instant semi-auto ban she announced?
 
biere

biere

Veteran Member
If they come for the guns, they will take the whole thing.

If they mail paper out saying turn in your ar15 we know you have cause there is a 4473 about it, then yeah dismantle it and turn in the lower.

I would expect em to also realize what you did.

Bought parts kits on credit? Take your car anywhere near an actual gun show parking lot?

Post on the net about guns?

You are on plenty of lists. Your car, your net persona, your 6 degrees of seperation from ghost lowers, and so on and so forth.

And if they come after ar pattern rifles, you may as well figure everything from a clip fed garand to a clip fed sks to a mag fed ar or ak is gonna be on that list. Go ahead and include the 10-22 as well I bet.

The tube fed semi auto 22lr stuff has a better chance of being left alone, but not gauranteed.

And first thing they will do is freeze purchase of more parts like springs, barrels, mags, bolts, and all the other stuff needed to rebuild your firearm if you were to use it a lot and wear it out.
 
nebb

nebb

Veteran Member
If they come hard decisions need to be made, anyone enforcing these laws are the enemy.....no exceptions....no—“I was only following orders”. Tough choices for sure.
 
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end game

end game

Veteran Member
For decades highly trained well armed military personel have been taken out by 12 year old Afgan kids using relic 8mm mausers. Don't really need the fancy stuff when a simple bolt action rifle in the right hands can get you what you want.
 
twobarkingdogs

twobarkingdogs

Veteran Member
Dozdoats said:
Two words - "battlefield pickup."

Just be careful of locator beacons.
Click to expand...


In the future I believe that to be a concern. You might need to field strip the gun down to bare metal before taking it home to rebuild or wrap it in tin foil for a later examination. Same with ammo, 1 round in a magazine might be a trap waiting to follow you home. List goes on

I think that in the 1'st Red Dawn movie they did tracking with cases of food so the idea on the tech has been out there for awhile

And good point about Project Eldest Son

tbd
 
Z

zeker

Has No Life - Lives on TB
"when they come for any of your guns, they'll take them all."

yup.. and ammo and if you put up ANY fuss, they mite consider you unstable and remove all kitchen knives etc

on the subject of plumbing equip, a few yrs back the gov was considering registering tires.. WTF

cuz they said lotsa folks would borrow a set for a safety check and remove them after they got the cert

this thinking didn't go anywhere, but its still out there
 
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