ECON A Myth Concerning Gold Confiscation

Double_A

TB Fanatic
I've posted or mentioned this exemption of $100 (~5oz) of gold at least twice before here. But the question comes up again and again. I'm not sure I'd call it a myth, but an exemption that is always ignored. Since this was posted a few days ago it bears reposting here for discussion. - Double_A

A Myth Concerning Gold Confiscation

By Roland Watson
May 29 2009 9:18AM
http://www.kitco.com/ind/watson/may292009.html

www.silveranalyst.blogspot.com

Recently I have seen a few articles speculating whether President Obama would decree the confiscation of private gold holdings from US citizens. This is seen as a counter against the perceived inflation surge that many believe will wash over America and the world in years to come as a result of the huge debt load that the credit crunch has instigated. In fact, I have even seen speculations about mining companies being nationalized – even silver mining companies!

Gold confiscation is a subject that divides gold investors. Some say it won’t happen again and others say it will happen again. The one thing they tend to agree on is that they don’t want it to happen again. I wrote on this subject three years and I just want to reiterate one myth about the previous Roosevelt confiscation that needs to be buried lest anyone think a government seizure would leave you bereft of gold.

Roosevelt issued executive order 6102 in April 1933 ordering in all gold coin, bullion and certificates. One contention is that most people did not bother obeying such a directive. In my opinion, the following statement by the Roosevelt government was not bluster but largely true:

“White House Statement on Returning Gold to Federal Reserve Banks.
April 5, 1933

In the past weeks the country has given a remarkable demonstration of confidence. With the reopening of a majority of the banks of the country, currency in excess of $1,200,000,000, of which more than $600,000,000 was in the form of gold and gold certificates, has been returned to the Federal Reserve Banks.

Many persons throughout the United States have hastened to turn in gold in their possession as an expression of their faith in the Government and as a result of their desire to be helpful in the emergency. There are others, however, who have waited for the Government to issue a formal order for the return of gold in their possession. Such an order is being issued today.”

The anti-confiscation contention is that the people who were waiting for the government to issue a formal order were not for turning their gold in. As can be seen from the above release, $600m or roughly the equivalent of 30 million ounces of gold in coin and certificate had been returned to the banks prior to the executive order.

Now it can be conceded that the people waiting for an official order may have ultimately held onto their gold, but a reading of the order suggests that illegally held gold was probably not going to happen in any great measure. The reason for this is the following section of Executive Order 6102:

“All persons are hereby required to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, to a Federal Reserve bank or a branch or agency thereof or to any member bank of the Federal Reserve System all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates now owned by them or coming into their ownership on or before April 28, 1933, except the following:

(b) Gold coin and gold certificates in an amount not exceeding in the aggregate $100.00 belonging to any one person; and gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins.”

Now section (b) is the text of interest. Many have focussed on the numismatical portion, but I have rarely seen much said about the $100 exemption clause. At that time gold was valued at $20 per ounce. The $20 double eagle coin in circulation contained just under an ounce of gold and five of them made up $100.

What is this exemption clause in executive order 6102 saying? It is saying that each person could keep up to nearly five ounces of gold coin in their possession without fear of prosecution! At that time, the adult population of America was about 90 million. In theory, the population could have held onto 450 million ounces of gold if they had the means and will to do it (in practise, this much gold was never minted into coin).

Now was there widespread illegal hoarding of gold? Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz in their book, "A Monetary History of the United States, 1867-1960" give statistics which suggest that 13.9 million ounces of gold were still in circulation in January 1934 and that only about 21.9% of the gold in circulation had been handed in.

The trouble with that statement is that it does not seem to take this 5-ounce exemption clause into account. Although we do not believe that 90 million people actually held about 5 ounces each, it would only take each adult in America to legally hold 0.15oz of gold to account for this “missing” 13.9 million ounces. Indeed, even if an attempt was made to take this 5oz exemption into account, I would consider it nigh impossible to differentiate legally held coin from illegally held coin.

How much of these 13.9 million ounces was legally held? Of course, we cannot say definitely, but it seems clear to me that even during the Great Depression, holding five ounces of gold was not an onerous task for many. How much was the average wage in America in 1933? I found a few answers by searching the Internet, but they averaged out at about $1400 per annum. That means that $100 was less than a month’s wage and although the savings rate in 1933 was one of the lowest in recent American history, we suspect many households held more than $100 in savings.

Indeed, it would only take 2.8 million adults or 3% of the adult population to hold 5oz and account for the entire 13.9 million ounces of gold. When we also consider how many probably redistributed their excess gold coins to wives, sons, daughters, parents and so on to avoid confiscation, I think we can safely conclude that illegal hoarding was not a major activity.
Now one may say that if Roosevelt had not included this 5oz exemption then illegal hoarding would have happened. Perhaps it would have but in this exemption we see Roosevelt the Socialist in action. For you see, democratic socialism has this thing about progressive taxation and I suggest the same for confiscation. Just as people will not start paying tax on their income until they have crossed their personal “allowance”, so it was with this gold exemption clause. How do you get the majority of average income voters on your side on this matter? You simply let them keep a portion of their gold and then give them the added bonus of a 57% windfall when gold is revalued to $35! How many sold their five eagle allowance at $35 instead of $20? Nobody knows for sure but that is how reflation works, you create extra dollars for people to spend.

So how would this arrested form of confiscation work if it was imposed today? If President Obama seized the gold ETFs but allowed citizens to keep five ounces per head how would that pan out? Quite easily I suspect. As it happens, five ounces of gold currently costs about $4800. If the average American wage is $40000 today, then this 5oz would form 12% of annual income. In 1933, it would have been 7% at $20 an ounce and 12% at $35 an ounce so not much of a difference even after 76 years (herein we see gold’s ability to preserve wealth across the decades).

Of course, a modern confiscation may be for different reasons to a 1930s one. The point I am trying to make is that Roosevelt signed off executive order 6102 not to prohibit ownership per se but to prohibit hoarding which is a completely different matter. The relevant portion of the executive order is:

I, Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, do declare that said national emergency still continues to exist and pursuant to said section to do hereby prohibit the hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States by individuals, partnerships, associations and corporations ..

Possessing five gold double eagles is not hoarding, gold ownership was not prohibited, gold hoarding was. Thanks to the gold standard, people were cashing in paper for gold and depleting the Treasury. But when the gold standard began to prove inconvenient to a government that wanted to reflate the economy, it had to go. So much for the gold standard holding government accountable, they just discard it when it gets in the way!

Today we have a similar situation in terms of form but not magnitude. The government wants to reflate but gold is not in the way this time. Back in 1933 you increased the money supply by 50% by revaluing gold to $35 an ounce. Today, you just devalue the dollar by debt auctions and quantitative easing. Is gold confiscation coming? I doubt it and even if it did, the exemption clauses of order 6102 may set a precedence for many families to hold sizeable portions of gold.

Roland Watson


Reposted under Fair Use guidelines for discussion only, http://www.kitco.com/ind/watson/may292009.html
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Gold is just another commodity. There has to be buyers to sell it. With what is ahead the big gold holders just have to sit on what they have or sell a bit off even to keep the price down.

I bought quite a bit of gold once in Australia and found that it wasn't easy to sell it when I needed cash. Sure I could sell a bit to a jeweler that needed some. I'm talking good times.

The other thing is you only get paid gold price not ingot price, jewelry cost, coin cost etc.

With what I think is ahead I think there will be few buyers out there. All the government has to do is close up the buyers and you will be stuck when you need to sell.

Buy stuff that is going to be in demand with what is up in front of us. Remember you will probably be bartering / exchanging for something else. Example, vegetables for bullets comes to mind.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Well that's not been my experience in the USA.

Although I would agree with anybody that said having anything of value is better than paper with ink, in this world economy



Gold is just another commodity. There has to be buyers to sell it. With what is ahead the big gold holders just have to sit on what they have or sell a bit off even to keep the price down.

I bought quite a bit of gold once in Australia and found that it wasn't easy to sell it when I needed cash. Sure I could sell a bit to a jeweler that needed some. I'm talking good times.

The other thing is you only get paid gold price not ingot price, jewelry cost, coin cost etc.

With what I think is ahead I think there will be few buyers out there. All the government has to do is close up the buyers and you will be stuck when you need to sell.

Buy stuff that is going to be in demand with what is up in front of us. Remember you will probably be bartering / exchanging for something else. Example, vegetables for bullets comes to mind.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
It does not have to be confiscated to have the gold holders lose their investments. All that has to happen is a foreign country use a large percentage of it's "off the books" gold to sell to market. Once they sell (say at 900/ounce), they wait a day or two for the markets to reel, and buy it back at a greatly reduced rate (getting their original amount of gold back, and keeping the change). If a few other countries do this, the price of gold and silver will be back in the $3 to $60 range in no time.

There are a LOT of countries that keep a LOT of "off the books" gold, silver and platinum just like DeBeers keeps "off the books" diamonds. China would do it in a heartbeat.

Loup
 

Y2kO

Inactive
In my area in Indiana, there is a bank that will buy gold - at spot price. There are coin dealers who will buy gold at spot price. There is no problem selling gold. Demand is going to be great since it is the only store of value against the collapse of the dollar and all other fiat currencies. Supply has been very limited - of gold and silver, because very few people are selling. If someone gets in a financial bind, they sell to the coin dealer and he turns around and sells it to an eager buyer in the same week. That just happened week before last. I was the eager buyer - and glad to get it.

There are all kinds of articles over at kitco and other places where analysts are predicting $2500 gold before the end of the year and ultimately $6000 to $10,000 gold.

But yes, it is more important to have a good supply of food, water, and meds going into this fall. After that, if you have other money that you don't want to become worthless, then consider investing in silver or gold. But you don't have a lot of time to think about it. Because the opportunity of a century is rapidly closing.

Regarding confiscation, as Robby Noel points out, fewer than 1% of the people own small amounts of gold. There is so little out there that it is not worth the trouble to the US government to go after it. Since this time, people aren't going to cooperate with a corrupt government operating totally outside the constitution, and turn in their gold. The price will be high for those coming to get it.

As Ron Paul says, when they come for the gold and guns, then we'll have another revolution.

It's easier for the government to just authorize their Federal Reserve banks to buy the gold and accept it as payment on financial transactions. Fairly soon, they will have most of it anyway.
 

Y2kO

Inactive
It does not have to be confiscated to have the gold holders lose their investments. All that has to happen is a foreign country use a large percentage of it's "off the books" gold to sell to market. Once they sell (say at 900/ounce), they wait a day or two for the markets to reel, and buy it back at a greatly reduced rate (getting their original amount of gold back, and keeping the change). If a few other countries do this, the price of gold and silver will be back in the $3 to $60 range in no time.

There are a LOT of countries that keep a LOT of "off the books" gold, silver and platinum just like DeBeers keeps "off the books" diamonds. China would do it in a heartbeat.

Loup

Banks periodically sell tons of gold --- all the time. It affects the market price for about 24 hours or is discounted in advance if announced in advance. It no longer has the ability to keep the price down - because the whole world knows the dollar is collapsing and is going to take a lot of other currencies with it.

And besides that, the "sellers" are disappearing.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
It does not have to be confiscated to have the gold holders lose their investments. All that has to happen is a foreign country use a large percentage of it's "off the books" gold to sell to market. Once they sell (say at 900/ounce), they wait a day or two for the markets to reel, and buy it back at a greatly reduced rate (getting their original amount of gold back, and keeping the change). If a few other countries do this, the price of gold and silver will be back in the $3 to $60 range in no time.

There are a LOT of countries that keep a LOT of "off the books" gold, silver and platinum just like DeBeers keeps "off the books" diamonds. China would do it in a heartbeat.

Loup

GATA, the Gold Anti-trust group has been claiming that the US Gov has been doing this for years.

Of course what would be the point of slitting your own throat? It's been speculated that the US Gov does not have all the gold it claims to have. IIRC there have been no independent audits since the early 1950's But selling paper gold and depressing prices serves to dissuade people from owning gold in favor of owning US Treasury Notes & bills which are also controlled. Actually increasingly devalued.

By the way while Americans are spending all their money buying garbage, it seems all of our enemies are buying, holding or even hoarding gold.. China, Russia, Arabs & Venezuela. So, I guess you could make a point like they did in 1930's that owning gold is un-american or is it?
 

Kook

A 'maker', not a 'taker'!
Gold is just another commodity. There has to be buyers to sell it. With what is ahead the big gold holders just have to sit on what they have or sell a bit off even to keep the price down.

I bought quite a bit of gold once in Australia and found that it wasn't easy to sell it when I needed cash. Sure I could sell a bit to a jeweler that needed some. I'm talking good times.

The other thing is you only get paid gold price not ingot price, jewelry cost, coin cost etc.

With what I think is ahead I think there will be few buyers out there. All the government has to do is close up the buyers and you will be stuck when you need to sell.

Buy stuff that is going to be in demand with what is up in front of us. Remember you will probably be bartering / exchanging for something else. Example, vegetables for bullets comes to mind.

22 Rimfire (supposedly) was determined to be the most valuable trading commodity in a Mad Max situation, per a goobermint study. I have invested heavily in this particular precious metal.

Metal Trader Kook
 

Attachments

  • ammo_precious.jpg
    ammo_precious.jpg
    112 KB · Views: 187

baygoldbug

Inactive
Google the strings:

Gold - Ancient Rome
Gold - Wiemar Germany
Gold - Zimbabwe
Gold - Venuzuela

If it's just a commodity, why are the Chinese and Russians buying so much of it?
To fuel pellet stoves?
To make jewelry?
To fertilize tomatoes?
To weave into shirts?

- BGB

.

.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Psss, Kook, those aren't .22LR in the picture. LOL ;)

B-T-W, I figure they will ban guns... the day before they ban gold.

You gonna give up your gun? I didn't think so.



22 Rimfire (supposedly) was determined to be the most valuable trading commodity in a Mad Max situation, per a goobermint study. I have invested heavily in this particular precious metal.

Metal Trader Kook
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
I just wanted to point out the purpose of this thread,,

"each person could keep up to nearly five ounces of gold coin in their possession without fear of prosecution!"
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Places like Zimbabwe many gold mines closed as they couldn't keep up with costs. You also have to sell to someone that is trading by the back door out of the country
 
Last edited:

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Places like Zimbabwe many gold mines closed as they couldn't keep up with costs. You also have to sell to someone is is trading by the back door out of the country

What is your point?
What is your intention for this post?

Perhaps I should have said, CC where are you going with this?
 
Last edited:

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
AA, I would point out that the reason they were permitted to keep the 5 oz is that they would then be left with the family savings.

Remember that at the time Gold was Legal Tender for all debts, public and private.

Today this is NOT the case.

The 5 oz exclusion is an historic curiosity but has damn-all to do with today.


HOWEVER ---

HAVING SAID THAT ---

The reason that there is NOT likely to be a GOld COnfiscation is buried in the above sentence.

TODAY gold is NOT Legal Tender. Our Dollar has NO connection OR CONVERTABILITY to gold. At the time of the confiscation this was NOT true, and teh Gov't needed to have in hand all of the gold they did finally GET in order to pay their bills with GOLD BACKED currency...

With no gold backed currency, there is no need to confiscate.

BUT----

If someone DOES decide confiscation is "required" "for the greater good" then you can Pretty much expect that there will NOT BE any kind of "5 oz exclusion" NOR any "numismatic" exclusion...The likely confiscators today have no esthetic heart....
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
All good points ND and NONE that I'm not already aware of. However you know full well that our laws generally follow prior legal precedents established. But nothing is impossible.

But that doesn't mean others are aware, so I would not fault anyone for bringing them up. China Connection's experiences as valid as well, they are indeed his experiences. Different countries have different laws.

But let me make another point, which seems to be lost on many.

Most of the valid criticisms of gold ownership apply equally to many other commodities and goods. Markets can be flooded with product. Government can place restrictions on buying and selling. Price can drop because demand goes down for any number of reasons.

To which I say, so?
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
"Double_A

What is your point?
What is your intention for this post?

Perhaps I should have said, CC where are you going with this?"

...................................................................................

Well I'm expecting the US dollar to hyperinflation. Within a short time Americans are not going to be buying gold. I also expect that most Western countries will hyperinflation around the same time. Rich people hold off and buy when things are cheap. They also buy in advance of a currency drop.

Some countries like China might buy but only if the price is right and how will you sell to them. You would have to go through a middle man.

I once heard that when the economy in Chile in South America collapsed antique buys were buying for peanuts valuable antique and shipping them to the rest of the world were the markets were still good. The locals needed money for food. You can't eat gold.

For arguments sake let’s take the bullet barter a bit further. Bullets I think will be a top thing to exchange. You are dealing direct with the end user and you can sell in small lots. People will want them for self protection and food hunting. It is a local market.

...............................................................................................................

By late 1923 it took 200 billion marks to buy a loaf of bread. Millions of hard-working, thrifty German people found that their life's savings would not buy a postage stamp. They were penniless." (Excerpted from "The Nightmare German Inflation")

..................................................................................................................

SO YOU DON’T WANT TO GO CASHLESS. THEN WHAT?

http://www.geocities.com/juliecentral/cashless.htm

First off, you will find yourself quickly becoming financially handicapped in your payment options. You will also pay heavy fees for using cheques until cheques are eliminated. You will be pressured and even coerced to have all your bill payments and paychecks conducted automatically and electronically. Home banking on your PC or phone will become necessary as tellers and bank branches are replaced by ATM’s. Large sums of cash will be next to impossible to obtain. Cash will be recalled and the smartcard will become mandatory. You will then find that you cannot pay your bills or buy groceries. Exchanging gold or silver coins will be illegal without a dealer license.
..................................................................................................

Obolus02-27-2005, 11:53 PM

http://goldismoney.info/forums/archive/index.php/t-18747.html


Wouldn't the governments of the world just make gold and silver illegal?

because they can not track you if you use silver or gold coins then that is a Danger to National Security and there for is terrorism,

So are we holding PM in vain?????

Someone earlier posted something to the effect of gold already being tied to terrorism because it's harder to trace and the idea that that may be the first step towards making its possession illegal.

Cashless society, I'm afraid you're right. Probably be pretty easy to tie a credit or debit card into a NID, hey, now you just have to carry one card! Just look at the folks in the line ahead of you at the supermarket. Last Thursday I happened to get stuck in a rather long line, about 5 infront of me. I watched as EVERY one of them whipped out a credit or debit card to pay. That is, of course, until I got up to the cashier and plunked down 8 SBAs :smile:
 
Last edited:

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
So are we holding PM in vain?????

I don't think so. Barter works but has it's limitations. Ditto gold. Ditto paper. Ditto electronic recordkeeping. The limitations differ between the media and each has it's best theatre of operations.

In a true SHTF situation, I would imagine barter would be the medium of choice. Then gold, then paper, then electronic transfer in increasing levels of infrastructure/societal sophistication necessary to support it. Without the infrastructure to support it (i.e. Max Max) even gold has limitations. And it all comes back to barter which is the meeting of two equals. If you don't meet an equal, then even barter can't work.

I can see confiscation in our future. The thing about having a "system" is that if everyone avoids the system due to widespread perception of the faults of the system, then those that gimmick the system to their advantage (i.e. the increasing gooberment/finance/business liaison that appears headed to enslave us all a.k.a, TPTB) will be deprived of some of their "winnings." The system cannot tolerate competition - hence - gooberment will outlaw the competition. And all gold will be called in along with all the paper. And barter will be outlawed too. All that is left for commerce will be the electronic version which of course will be "transparent" - at least to TPTB.

Meanwhile there will be you and I silently "grey manning" it in the background doing what we do by barter and with gold. Possibly even paper, although paper might have more effective uses - in the bathroom.

I remember stories from my childhood when things like "calling in the gold" were discussed by our extended family around the Christmas Tree. I was intrigued by the "hubris" of a government that could "call in" gold and give a mere token payment (IMHO as a 12 year old) for receipt of that value. Grandfather said he considered keeping quiet about his gold and hoarding it: but ultimately decided that he would accede to the government wishes in part because he thought that gold would no longer be actively traded (i.e. he would be stuck with something he couldn't exchange for value since it was illegal to possess anyway.) So he and Grandma turned everything in. I remember him saying in the early 1960s (maybe the 30th anniversary of calling in the gold?) "Think what all that gold would be worth today had we kept it." It wasn't so much the value of the gold had increased. More that the value of the dollars decreased in the interim.

The truth of the matter is that government has NO business in the money supply. When they do have business, they ruin it. Politics and government and money is like that and has been since time immemorial. It would have been better, possibly that the business of "coinage" have been left out of the Constitution, or possibly specifically excluded. Instead, what the majority of people deem of value - like gold - would be the best medium of exchange. Or paper. Or electronic transfer. Or maybe seashells. Don't know. Whatever the most common medium of exchange boils down to be. And our country was pretty much like that until 1913 when that group of banksters got together at Jekyll Island and assembled the manacles that have enslaved us financially since then.

In a way, I hope gooberment does sink the currency. Then we can start again with seashells and maybe do it right this time. No Jekyll Island either.

I like the concept. 1 oz. of gold = one day's labor for a professional man = 1 nicely tailored business suit. It's been that way for a LOOONG time.

Joe
 
Last edited:

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
A tiny little insignificant side note: in 1933, gold was NOT confiscated.

Confiscation is the act of taking private property for public use WITHOUT COMPENSATION. The gold that was required to be turned in under FDR's EO was paid for with paper money at the then official price of $20.67/ounce. Of course, the government then RAISED the official price of gold, in the process devaluing those newly issued paper dollars by some 60%.

dd
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
And I REALLY LIKE John Galt's statement in Atlas Shrugged about the dollar sign being the sign of a "free" man.

I've threated to put the dollar sign on a post down at the end of my driveway and make a "statement." But I'm afraid the significance would be lost on the general population - and it would invite skulduggery of a vandalism nature.

Maybe a "camoflage" dollar sign? But then what would be the point? If you're going to make a statement, you have to make it loud enough for people to hear.

Maybe grey man quiet would be wiser. My actions speak louder than my words.

Joe
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
I'm not sure what to make of this post here CC. to me it appears to be a jumble of somewhat related topics.

But let me say this,

If your point is that you expect hyper-inflation and that your spending money buying stuff in anticipation of rampant inflation instead of gold - I'm in agreement with you. I'm doing the same.

I don't know why it is so hard for some people to understand, many people who have bought gold do so as an alternate form of savings. Savings that are done with a bit of money that is left after another preps purchase. Financial Prepping.

Some people HERE seem to have a mental image of people who own gold as as misers that sit fondling gold coins. They view them as idiots that have decided to ignore prepping.

Their mental image is that these gold misers that instead of storing food, fuel, water and other preps have ignored all prepping, because they bought gold instead. That's an idiotic perception.

Prepping is taking action in anticipation of needs. To be most effective it needs to be a comprehensive program, you can't ignore any part of it. If you think you can, For fun I'll picture you trying to barter for a new engine in your truck with ten thousand rolls of soggy toilet paper in a downpour ;)

D_A





"Double_A

What is your point?
What is your intention for this post?

Perhaps I should have said, CC where are you going with this?"

...................................................................................

Well I'm expecting the US dollar to hyperinflation. Within a short time Americans are not going to be buying gold. I also expect that most Western countries will hyperinflation around the same time. Rich people hold off and buy when things are cheap. They also buy in advance of a currency drop.

Some countries like China might buy but only if the price is right and how will you sell to them. You would have to go through a middle man.

I once heard that when the economy in Chile in South America collapsed antique buys were buying for peanuts valuable antique and shipping them to the rest of the world were the markets were still good. The locals needed money for food. You can't eat gold.

For arguments sake let’s take the bullet barter a bit further. Bullets I think will be a top thing to exchange. You are dealing direct with the end user and you can sell in small lots. People will want them for self protection and food hunting. It is a local market.

...............................................................................................................

By late 1923 it took 200 billion marks to buy a loaf of bread. Millions of hard-working, thrifty German people found that their life's savings would not buy a postage stamp. They were penniless." (Excerpted from "The Nightmare German Inflation")

..................................................................................................................

SO YOU DON’T WANT TO GO CASHLESS. THEN WHAT?

http://www.geocities.com/juliecentral/cashless.htm

First off, you will find yourself quickly becoming financially handicapped in your payment options. You will also pay heavy fees for using cheques until cheques are eliminated. You will be pressured and even coerced to have all your bill payments and paychecks conducted automatically and electronically. Home banking on your PC or phone will become necessary as tellers and bank branches are replaced by ATM’s. Large sums of cash will be next to impossible to obtain. Cash will be recalled and the smartcard will become mandatory. You will then find that you cannot pay your bills or buy groceries. Exchanging gold or silver coins will be illegal without a dealer license.
..................................................................................................

Obolus02-27-2005, 11:53 PM

http://goldismoney.info/forums/archive/index.php/t-18747.html


Wouldn't the governments of the world just make gold and silver illegal?

because they can not track you if you use silver or gold coins then that is a Danger to National Security and there for is terrorism,

So are we holding PM in vain?????

Someone earlier posted something to the effect of gold already being tied to terrorism because it's harder to trace and the idea that that may be the first step towards making its possession illegal.

Cashless society, I'm afraid you're right. Probably be pretty easy to tie a credit or debit card into a NID, hey, now you just have to carry one card! Just look at the folks in the line ahead of you at the supermarket. Last Thursday I happened to get stuck in a rather long line, about 5 infront of me. I watched as EVERY one of them whipped out a credit or debit card to pay. That is, of course, until I got up to the cashier and plunked down 8 SBAs :smile:
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
A tiny little insignificant side note: in 1933, gold was NOT confiscated.

Confiscation is the act of taking private property for public use WITHOUT COMPENSATION. The gold that was required to be turned in under FDR's EO was paid for with paper money at the then official price of $20.67/ounce. Of course, the government then RAISED the official price of gold, in the process devaluing those newly issued paper dollars by some 60%.

dd

Perhaps you could point me to where you found that definition, as that is not how my Websters defines confiscation.
 

China Connection

TB Fanatic
Yes Double_A you have got what I mean. Having some gold on hand in case you have to up and run is okay but I think too many here are depending on gold to save them when the shit hits the ceiling.


I think that if you can get through the first year once things really happen then you have a chance. I don't think besides going deep into the mountains or taking to the sea in a vessel that can get you to different countries that you can plan much past a year.
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
Yes Double_A you have got what I mean. Having some gold on hand in case you have to up and run is okay but I think too many here are depending on gold to save them when the shit hits the ceiling.


I think that if you can get through the first year once things really happen then you have a chance. I don't think besides going deep into the mountains or taking to the sea in a vessel that can get you to different countries that you can plan much past a year.

but I think too many here are depending on gold to save them when the shit hits the ceiling.

You know I think the people who have gone out periodically and bought gold/silver over the previous decade are some of the "smartest" people here.

They had the foresight to buy, not out of recent panic, but as a long term method of insuring that some small portion of their savings will survive an economic crisis.

These people in my opinion are not inclined to ignore to fact you cannot eat gold.

Most of the supporters of precious metals have vocally said over and over that buying gold/silver is what you do with a portion of money left over AFTER your have taken care of Food/Water/tools/Fuel/Electricity/Medical/Shelter/Heating needs

Perhaps your thinking of those who come here saying "Quick I need to change a bunch of money into gold" ... (when gold is at the highest price in over a decade.) For those people I would strongly suggest they put all their money into preps, because I would tend to believe they are very late in the prep game.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
I went to www.alltheweb.com (my usual search engine) and searched 'confiscation definition.' On the front page of results, about #6, was this-

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/confiscation/ The site defines itself as: "Legal Definitions & Legal Terms Defined
Free Legal Dictionary
Welcome to the legal definitions and legal terms dictionary of U.S. Legal Forms, Inc. Please feel free to browse our terms and definitions free of charge. You will notice once a term is defined there will be associated news and or court cases where the defined term is applicable."

Confiscation is the taking of private property for public use without compensation. It may occur legally when the government seizes property used in illegal practices, such as a boat used to smuggle illegal drugs. Confiscation may also be referred to as forfeiture. //snip//

Any more questions for this old retired reference librarian? 8^)

dd
 

Double_A

TB Fanatic
I just pull down the dictionary on the shelf above my head. In this case Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary (yikes 1988?)

Confiscate
1. appropriated by the government: forfeited
2. deprived of property by confiscation (kinda circular eh?)




I went to www.alltheweb.com (my usual search engine) and searched 'confiscation definition.' On the front page of results, about #6, was this-

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/confiscation/ The site defines itself as: "Legal Definitions & Legal Terms Defined
Free Legal Dictionary
Welcome to the legal definitions and legal terms dictionary of U.S. Legal Forms, Inc. Please feel free to browse our terms and definitions free of charge. You will notice once a term is defined there will be associated news and or court cases where the defined term is applicable."

Confiscation is the taking of private property for public use without compensation. It may occur legally when the government seizes property used in illegal practices, such as a boat used to smuggle illegal drugs. Confiscation may also be referred to as forfeiture. //snip//

Any more questions for this old retired reference librarian? 8^)

dd
 

Y2kO

Inactive
http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ad=article&ArticleId=6745

Did U.S. Export Over 175 Million Ounces of Gold?
By Patrick A. Heller, Market Update
June 01, 2009

The United States Geological Survey (USGS) publishes monthly Mineral Industry Surveys with one series that focuses on gold production, imports and exports. These reports include information from the U.S. Census Bureau on the quantities of refined gold bullion and gold compounds exported from the US.

The latest monthly report is from February 2009, which includes data for 2008 and early 2009. The February 2008 report is the oldest of these reports available at the USGS Web site (www.usgs.gov), which includes data for all of 2007. For prior years, there are annual reports that do not lay out the data in the same format.

In 2008, domestic U.S. gold mine production was reported at between 228 and 230 metric tons. Since a metric ton contains 32,151 troy ounces of gold, that means U.S. mine output was somewhere between 7.33 million and 7.395 million troy ounces last year. In 2007, gold mine output was about 244 tons, or 7.845 million troy ounces.

U.S. net exports (gross exports minus imports) of refined gold were about 10.8 million ounces in 2008 and 11.2 million ounces in 2007.

The intriguing statistics contained in these two annual totals is the net exports of gold compounds. For 2008, there were net exports of 2,818 tons (90.6 million ounces) of gold compounds. In 2007, the net exports were 1,988 tons (63.9 million ounces).

Rob Kirby of Kirbyanalytics in Toronto contacted a USGS employee knowledgeable in the preparation of these reports. This employee told Kirby that the USGS had contacted the U.S. Census Bureau to confirm the accuracy and details of gold compounds exported.

According to the Census Bureau, gold compounds include industrial type products containing low percentages or amounts of actual gold content, with gold paint being given as one example. Kirby mentioned to the USGS employee that the increase in net exports from 2007 to 2008 did not make sense given the global economic downturn. The USGS employee acknowledged that the figures did not make sense, which was one reason that the Census Bureau had been contacted to confirm the data.

Kirby then observed that the high value of such exports did not make sense if it could include only industrial goods, given the decline in global commercial activity. Rather, Kirby speculated the amount of gold exported indicated that it was more likely to be gold bullion or equivalent forms. To this, the USGS employee responded, "That would be correct."

So, for 2007 and 2008 combined, the U.S. exported 22 million ounces of refined gold and over 154 million ounces of "compound gold." This is more than 11 times U.S. gold mine production during those two years. In fact, this is higher than global gold mine output. Where did all this gold come from?

This amount of gold exceeds what is held by all private parties in the U.S. combined. When the U.S. government called in gold in 1933, it then melted down the coins without refining. As a result, such bars from the coin melt would have a purity of around 90 percent gold. These would not qualify for description as refined gold, but could fit the definition of compound gold.

In the past few years, several gold traders have commented that a surprising number of coin melt gold bars were being delivered in London and Zurich markets, bars which almost certainly came from the U.S. Treasury vaults.

It is possible that some of these gold exports could be the repatriation of foreign central bank gold that had been stored with the New York Federal Reserve. Such transfers would be classified as "exports" for purposes of this report. The other possibility is that it could be gold formerly held by the only central bank in the world that had that much gold - the United States.

Wherever this gold came from, it is bad news for the U.S. government. If foreign central banks are pulling their gold reserves out of storage in the U.S., that signals lost faith in U.S. financial strength, which the U.S. government would not want the general public to learn about. If the U.S. government has actually been exporting its own gold, while still trying to pretend that the quantity in its vaults is unchanged, confirmation of such exports would clobber faith in both the U.S. government and the dollar.

The U.S. government has not had a genuine audit of its gold holdings in decades. In recent years, it has changed the description of gold holdings in reports so that now it is only described as "custodial gold" rather than gold reserves.

The so-called experts such as the World Gold Council, GFMS, and CPM Group do not include the appearance of all these gold supplies in their reports on global gold supplies and demand, which makes their analyses grossly inaccurate.

The U.S. government has a huge interest in hoping that the general public will not notice or care where all this gold came from. On the other side, for their personal financial protection, Americans urgently need to know the source of all this gold.

Kirby released his report last Friday. I expect that it will foster a clamor for disclosure. If the U.S. government resists providing the information, people will assume the worst - that the U.S. government has a lot less gold than it claims. It would be difficult for the government to lie about the source of this gold and get away with it - too many analysts will be double checking the information. Alternatively, the U.S. government could honestly admit where the gold came from, which I am confident will show much lower gold holdings than reported. No matter how the U.S. government responds, I anticipate that this matter will spark a sharp increase in the price of gold.
 

tanstaafl

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Something that I think a lot of people get wrong is that there is NO inherent reason whatsoever why the feds would simply re-use Roosevelt's Executive Order (April 5, 1933) in a new effort to ban the private ownership of gold. So basing the current argument around a 76 year old E.O. is not necessarily credible to me, particularly since legal precedent these days seems to be something of a dying tradition (at least in the financial world). Also, as far as I know at least some of the important practical details of turning over the gold and gold certificates weren't all there in the original E.O. (for example, I think the exemption for numismatic coins didn't come until later). I also find it very interesting that Roosevelt felt the need to issue a second E.O. on December 28, 1933 reiterating that people had to turn in their gold -- if everyone WAS lining up and eagerly turning over their gold then the second E.O. would probably not have been necessary, don't you think?
 
Top