CRIME 21 Years Ago In Waco, TX...

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Actually, 21 years ago Friday...

IMHO while Dick Reavis' book is indeed one of the best on Waco, THE best is attorney Dave Hardy's This Is Not An Assault - see http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Assault-Penetrating-Regarding/dp/0738863424 for more information on the book. Hardy blogs at http://www.armsandthelaw.com/ and I heartily recommend that site also.
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http://weaponsman.com/?p=14185

21 Years Ago Today

A huge ATF operation in Texas was meant to get a lot of media attention. And it did, just not the way the Bureau wanted. A raid that was planned for television effect was initiated with a rattle of suppressed fire as ATF agents killed the residents’ dogs: an Alaskan Malamute bitch and her four puppies. They didn’t kill them clean, and the agonized yelps of wounded dogs would continue for several minutes. That was the opening round; supposedly, it was written into the operations order, but nobody knows for sure, for as we’ll see, the operations order did not survive.

ATF Agent, hit by friendly MP5 fire from a mortally wounded agent inside. This man survived.
ATF Agent, after breaching the window and raking the glass, remained outside. He was hit by friendly MP5 fire, possibly a dying burst from a mortally wounded agent inside. This man survived and made it back down the ladder.

Then — according to all non-ATF witnesses — the ATF opened up on the building. Few had targets; they were just blazing away at windows and walls. Sometime in these mad minutes, some dog-loving agent put the crippled dogs out of their mewling agony. The ATF kept firing for two hours, until they were out of ammunition, then pulled back. Pulling back wasn’t the right term, really; they bugged out, undisciplined, and some of their men — particularly the dead and the wounded — were left behind by the fleeing agents. The wounded and bodies would be recovered when FBI negotiators established a truce with the apocalyptic cult inside, an extremist breakaway faction of the Seventh Day Adventists.

They cult, who called themselves Branch Davidians, had been stockpiling guns. ATF agents fabricated a nonexistent “confidential source” to say they were dealing drugs, to get helicopter and heavy-weapons support from the National Guard. (Later, the FBI would use the same tactic, a phony “confidential source,” to push the Attorney General’s child-abuse button, in order to get the second, firestorm raid greenlighted).

The cult members would almost all be killed in the later FBI raid, which involved destroying all egresses with armored vehicles, covering them with sniper fire, and launching incendiaries into the building. (Weren’t we just talking about Njal’s Saga in some other context? History repeats itself).

The surviving cultists, most of whom fled before the final holocaust, were tried for various crimes, in a courtroom in San Antonio; and while some charges stuck, all of the murder and conspiracy-to-murder charges ended in acquittal. The fact-finders, the jury, found that the killings of ATF agents were self-defense. That finding is infuriating to this day to the officers who were there in 1993.

The ATF has never forgotten. Unfortunately, they never learned either.
The ATF has never forgotten. They’ve also never really admitted how badly their centralized planning let down the four agents who were slain.

At the end of the day, 16 to 20 (sources differ) ATF agents would be wounded, some seriously, and four would be killed: in alphabetical order, their names were Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Robert Williams and Steven Willis. Some of the twenty-odd ATF casualties were caused by return fire, and some of them were caused by friendly fire. It was and remains the worst day in the history of an agency that has had a lot of bad days.

One of the problems was that none of the ATF agents were prepared to do combat trauma medicine; no provision for medical support had been made; and so many resources had been poured into setting up a press center for the post-raid press conference that the officers on the scene didn’t have any means of communication. As an agent tried, with no training and no equipment, to somehow give first aid to a critically wounded, nonresponsive brother agent, another called out to the newsman filming the scene. “Cameraman! Call an ambulance.”

waco_agent_wounded

Until the cameraman called, no one had alerted the county medical trauma unit. ATF senior managers had been afraid that local first responders would leak to members of the cult. The irony is rich, because there was indeed a leak. But that leak came from those same senior managers, publicity hounds who leaked the raid to television networks to make sure ATF made the evening news.

Boy howdy, did they do that.

The ATF repaid the cameraman by pointing their guns at him and threatening him. You could say they treated him like a dog, except they didn’t shoot him.

Meanwhile, the inmates of the cult compound were on the phone to 911 trying to get them to get the ATF raiders to back off. The ATF radio van, though, was unmanned. The agents there had left it to join the firing line, and no one picked up the phone.

That very day, senior ATF managers ordered the destruction of certain evidence, including all copies of the raid plan. Video shot by ATF videographers was destroyed; the ATF tried to seize and destroy video shot by media that they’d invited to the raid. (At least one cameraman palmed the exposed tape and gave ATF a blank one, which is the only reason any visual evidence of that raid survives).

In a video recorded that evening, cult leader David Koresh said, “Hey, I’m sorry some of you guys got shot. But God’ll have to sort that out, won’t he?”

Well, by the time Koresh got there, LeBleu, McKeehan, Williams and Willis had been telling their side of the story for months. Assuming, of course, that the outlaw lawmen and the blasphemous churchman wound up in the same place.

With the destruction of vast swathes of the evidence by the agencies involved, sorting out the events of February 28, 1993 is unlikely to be very successful. One thing, though, is that no one it ATF thinks anything they did was wrong. Therefore, no measures were taken to correct any shortfalls (how could there be? There were no shortfalls!) and no one was held responsible. In ATF historiography, they were just minding their own business when waylaid by David Koresh, whom the FBI sort-of held responsible by burning his house down around his ears, while HRT snipers made sure no one got away.

A lot has been written about Waco. The best book is Dick Reavis’s The Ashes of Waco. Reavis did something nobody else did: tried to understand the cult and their theology. (It’s as bizarre as its detractors say). He also tried, in a remarkably even-handed way, to understand the ATF agents. He picked up to some degree on the vast chasm that yawns between the DC HQ panjandrums whose life is politics, and the field agents who get the smelly end of every new DC brainstorm. A lot of what is written about Waco is propaganda; Reavis’s book stands out for its careful research and mature, level tone.

In the end, apart from the dead, nobody really paid. No one was fired, demoted, or suspended. (Not that stuck, anyway). Some people call ATF all kinds of names, stormtroopers, whatever, but that sentence, “No one was fired…” tells you the reality of it: bureaucracy, armed.

This entry was posted in Don't be THAT guy, The Past is Another Country on February 28, 2014.
 

Hognutz

Has No Life - Lives on TB
A day that will live in infamy. I can still picture it in my mind.

This along with Ruby Ridge is what woke me to the tyrany.
 

Garryowen

Deceased
A day that will live in infamy. I can still picture it in my mind.

This along with Ruby Ridge is what woke me to the tyrany.

And as more information comes out, it keeps getting worse. How is it that the ATF or whoever it was, can point their guns at members of the press, and it not be reported by the press? Maybe that incident says more than we realize.
 

Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
Footage showing ATF retreating from the "compound" after the initial assault failed.

A "battlefield truce" was allowed by the Davidians to allow both sides to recover their dead and injured.

This debacle likely sealed the fate of the Davidians.

Rare footage,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er7gzj0BbSE
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Does anyone else feel that your starting to get old? That's been over 20 years ago already. Remember it like it was yesterday. Waco was one of the first incidents that caught my attention after I started to 'wake up'.
 
Some saw it for what it was when it happened and unfolded, live, on their TV sets. For others, it is what 'woke them up'.

It is the biggest, 'in your face' encroachment on our civil liberties in the modern era.
 

almost ready

Inactive
Some saw it for what it was when it happened and unfolded, live, on their TV sets. For others, it is what 'woke them up'.

It is the biggest, 'in your face' encroachment on our civil liberties in the modern era.

I remember the day of the mass murder so well. Like yesterday. Was picking up my kids at the elementary school and a neighbor showed up. Unlike me, who likes to keep the TV off, she had followed the news.

She was crying, sobbing, actually, tears streaming down her face. She could barely get out the words that they were killing them, and their home was burning. I was pretty well slackjawed then, just started crying with her, didn't even know much, just that there were a bunch of kids there and the people were individualists....went home and turned on the news.

Just grim.

Unhappy anniversary. Will light a candle and pray for all who suffered, including my poor neighbors.
 

Mercury3

Veteran Member
Janet Reno was in charge of that debacle.

Sorry let me reword my post......... reports came out later that Hilary wanted it ended and was directing Bill who directed Janet but it was setup to look like it was all Janet. Not that I liked Janet at all but I don't think it was all her.
 

Steel Chips

Veteran Member
How did the attack on the Waco, TX, church come to pass?

http://www.survivalblog.com/2012/06/letter-re-curious-postal-and-common-carrier-drivers.html

James Wesley:

I was wondering if you could pose the question of “mail-order stuff” to the UPS or Fed-Ex drivers that read SurvivalBlog. Have they been told to “see something-say something”?
Thanks, - Ed S.

JWR Replies: I haven't heard anything definitive on that topic in recent years. I'd appreciate UPS and FedEx drivers chiming in.

FWIW, I should mention that David Koresh (of Waco) first came to the attention of the BATF because a UPS driver reported seeing "grenade casings" protruding from a ripped cardboard box that was sent to the Waco church address. Well, those were actually inert dummy grenades that Koresh had been buying to re-paint and assemble with used (dead) practice grenade fuse assemblies to turn into gag/novelty gifts mounted on wooden plaques. (Those read: "Complaint Department, Take a Number" with matching "#1" tags attached to the grenade pin.) Do you remember those? They sold those a gun shows and via mail order. Well, eight months later, this happened. Please, dear readers, be very careful about the items you mail order and both the paper trails and electronic cookie crumb trails that you leave behind.


I look back at the video and see the a.t.f. dressed up in soldier boy uniforms. They attacked the church with full autos, killing the dog and her pups first, then firing randomly at the buildings. The church members returned fire. The a.t.f. then ran off with their tails tucked, leaving their dead and wounded behind. No church members were convicted for returning fire as it was in self defense.

I doubt law enforcement has changed. I suspect when it gets too hot in the kitchen they will still tuck tail and run, calling on the real military again to finish the job.

That u.p.s. driver must be so proud that he, personally, initiated the deaths of nearly 100 innocent men, women and children, instead of minding his own business. Another gd snitch.

Be careful out there people. Snitches are everywhere, looking for a pat on the back from government thugs.
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
Does anyone else feel that your starting to get old? That's been over 20 years ago already. Remember it like it was yesterday. Waco was one of the first incidents that caught my attention after I started to 'wake up'.

Same here.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
The MAJOR problem I have is that the whole initial attack was unnecessary since the local authorities could have done the arrest virtually ANY day while Koresh was on his daily run, or while he was BS'ing with them at the coffee shop like he USUALLY did.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Remember, this wasn't about an arrest. It was about a "show" from the media. ATF was up for budget review, and this event was designed to "play" before congress. If anyone is unaware of that fact, google it up....
 

SquonkHunter

Geezer (ret.)
This was the one event that "answered" all those questions that had been slowly nagging at the back of my mind for many years. I still remember all the sick bastards that joked about the fire and how they all "got what they deserved". When a friend asked me that night what I thought about the fiery ending of the siege, I quietly replied "When they came for the Jews I said nothing....." That was how I saw it. :shk:
 

SAPPHIRE

Veteran Member
Very apt responses............I wasn't truly awake back then but WACO goes to show how long this regime has been shredding our personal freedoms/choices.........no I don't think it's good to utilize a cult mentality....but seeing how wicked this regime is I truly can understand the "us/them" which seemed to be typified in the WACO debacle...........if we look back long enough there's plenty of events which have led to our current mess...........
 

iceblue

Senior Member
Remember, this wasn't about an arrest. It was about a "show" from the media. ....

It was about a "show" FOR the media. The same as when I turned my tv on at 10:20 AEST (Australian Eastern Standard Time) on January 17 1991 and a reporter was standing on a hotel roof saying " I don't know why I am here or what is going on but something is about to happen". Desert Storm - FOR the media.
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
That woke me up also to the true capacity for our government to commit truly EVIL, ILLEGAL ACTS against their own citizens. Till then I was truly a believer in the sterling goodness of the American government,(apart from some few isolated, rogue, bad guys acting in their own self-interests). Until then I never believed that MANY MANY government agents would act together to deliberately do such a horrific thing for such a trivial pretext of a justification.

I HAVE NOT TRUSTED IN MY GOVERNMENT'S 'BENEFICENCE" SINCE THE INCIDENTS AT WACO, THE MYRRAH BLDG IN OK, AND RUBY RIDGE!!
 

Vegas321

Live free and survive
Three things in my life that i watched on TV that made me really sick to my stomach, Waco,9/11,and the Station night club fire.
 

DustMusher

Deceased
This is what woke me and DH the cop, up. Didn't know about the AkMal and pups - just shows the total level of depravity - Mals are not watch dogs, even with pups to defend. Absolutely no reason to shoot except for the joy of killing setting the precedent to kill the dogss. Just shows the low low level of humanity then the burning of the women and children.

That was the end of trust for me, lucky for them it was before the Internet as it is now - that would have been even more effective for Patriots had the truth gotten out, then. Lucky for me I was close enough living in TX we were getting local reporters in Waco and got somewhat uncensored reports. They may have been telling us what the Black suits were releasing but the photog was showing what really was going on.

Seeing that, sort of blew the cover story of Ruby Ridge, especially when it came out the head sniper at both places was the same FBI. We were told that ONCE by ONE TV station, reporter got an interview and asked him a question starting with something like "Since you were one of the shooters at Ruby Ridge. . ."

Don't remember his career going anywhere after the Waco fiasco and I think he became something like a Public Info contact for a school district or some such. Killed his career but woke a LOT of people up.

I wish I could erase the picture in my mind of the compound being set on fire by the tank, but can't and I will remember. I want to live so that will be passed to all those who don't remember what happened and who are the Oath Keepers and what the Constitution really is and why it ALL needs defended.

Never Again

DM
 

L.A.B.

Goodness before greatness.
Waco's wake-up for me was the way in which other people processed the drama & trauma and how they responded to it. I can still hear the shrill scream logic of female co-workers who had no problem with the property being burnt to the ground victims included since Koresh had young girls in there. One of the co-worker ladies was a mother with a 16 year old daughter, so she was obviously stuck on the info that Koresh had young females behind the gates. Some how in her hyper driven mind, that justified the purge by fire, including the teenage girls with whom I presume she identified with her daughter.

At that point I realized a good percentage of people were flat out insane, and should be driving off into the sunset in their red pick-up trucks! Burn the village Janet, do it for the children :screw:
 
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Stardust

Veteran Member
Ruby Ridge then Waco woke me up.

Both were horrible. The first times in my memory a sitting President took an active part in covering up something so deadly.

Yes, Watergate, but nobody was killed then.
 

Paladin1

"In Omnia Paratus" is more than just a phrase
Like most, RR and Waco woke me up but unlike most, I was only 17 when Waco happened. I guess that's why I've never drank the "government can be trusted" Kool-Aid, but as I get older, my distrust and disgust towards this nation and it's people has just grown larger and larger. The judgment that's coming is long overdue and well deserved.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Let me encourage all here who are learning things about Waco they never knew before to watch the documentaryWaco: The Rules Of Engagement (http://williamgazecki.com/waco.html). If you have not seen it yet, your education is not complete.

Prepare to be even more horrified...
 
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