ENER Nordstream 1 and Nordstream 2 had sudden pressure drop - Likely Sabotage

Doc1

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
mecoastie said:
Everybody's seems to be getting hung up on the need for special equipment to accomplish this. This is not deep water. Commercially trained divers are more than capable of doing this and the gear is readily avail. A regular SCUBA diver could bounce dive it. Very risky but doable. Down, set the charge and up. The location of the pipelines is not a secret. There is no real security to bypass. A commercial drone or even a homemade drone could accomplish the task. The true perps could be almost any nation or well funded group that has a stake in this. You dont need a submarine or a ship. A small fishing vessel would work.
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Sorry, Brother, but 240' is deep water. Last time I was working in the industry, OSHA limited air dives to 125'. I'll admit that 240' - and I'm saying 240' because anyone in their right mind would use the deeper tables on a dive which was 'approximately' 230', especially if they had to go under the pipeline - isn't extremely deep, but for working dives it's well below anything you'd do on air.

You said, "A regular SCUBA diver could bounce dive it. Very risky but doable. Down, set the charge and up."

Probably the most infamous five words in diving are, "All ya gotta do is...." Whatever it is, you can expect it to be more difficult and take longer than the pencil pushers anticipate. Reports indicate that hundreds of kilograms of HE were used. That's a lot for any diver to manhandle, especially in the cold, while dealing with any currents. Also, remember that there were three explosion sites. The divers certainly didn't swim between the sites.

You said, "You don't need a submarine or a ship. A small fishing vessel would work."

Maybe, unless the whole idea was to be covert, in which case you couldn't use any surface support vessels. As I mentioned previously, I have no idea whether the pipelines were buried. This is commonly done where maritime traffic risks dragging anchors and fouling the pipe. Pipelines aren't buried the way people commonly think of burying. They are "jetted" beneath the seabed by divers or large jet barges using jets of high pressure water to get the pipe below the seabed. I haven't worked in the industry for over thirty years and don't know at what depth pipelines are currently buried. If the pipeline was buried, you'd have the added challenge of finding it.

I'm still leaning towards it being done by a submarine with lock in/lock out capability to deploy the divers.

Best
Doc
 
D

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
Faux is covering Desantis covering the storm, I've been on the phone with a friend at Bragg who used to be one of the folks who held up the wall in the OCONUS briefing rooms, where briefings went to the muckymucks (3/4 star and cabinet level) he was bodyguarding.

Conclusion - both situations are above my pay grade.
 
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K

KFhunter

Veteran Member
My fish finder is pretty cheap, but I can still watch an 1/8 oz jig go down and rest on the bottom near a log or structure. If the pipeline isn't jetted down and fully buried, then it wouldn't take much tech to place something on it, or right alongside it.
 
P

Profit of Doom

Dismember
Doc1 said:
Sorry, Brother, but 240' is deep water. Last time I was working in the industry, OSHA limited air dives to 125'. I'll admit that 240' - and I'm saying 240' because anyone in their right mind would use the deeper tables on a dive which was 'approximately' 230', especially if they had to go under the pipeline - isn't extremely deep, but for working dives it's well below anything you'd do on air.

You said, "A regular SCUBA diver could bounce dive it. Very risky but doable. Down, set the charge and up."

Probably the most infamous five words in diving are, "All ya gotta do is...." Whatever it is, you can expect it to be more difficult and take longer than the pencil pushers anticipate. Reports indicate that hundreds of kilograms of HE were used. That's a lot for any diver to manhandle, especially in the cold, while dealing with any currents. Also, remember that there were three explosion sites. The divers certainly didn't swim between the sites.

You said, "You don't need a submarine or a ship. A small fishing vessel would work."

Maybe, unless the whole idea was to be covert, in which case you couldn't use any surface support vessels. As I mentioned previously, I have no idea whether the pipelines were buried. This is commonly done where maritime traffic risks dragging anchors and fouling the pipe. Pipelines aren't buried the way people commonly think of burying. They are "jetted" beneath the seabed by divers or large jet barges using jets of high pressure water to get the pipe below the seabed. I haven't worked in the industry for over thirty years and don't know at what depth pipelines are currently buried. If the pipeline was buried, you'd have the added challenge of finding it.

I'm still leaning towards it being done by a submarine with lock in/lock out capability to deploy the divers.

Best
Doc
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Again, thinking it likely there was a fourth attempt that failed.
 
Grumphau

Grumphau

Veteran Member
My gut feeling on this is that the pipelines were blown via a joint Polish/Ukrainian op. I think the Ukrainians have the most to gain from this; they need weapons and money flowing to them to keep their war machine turning and to regain lost territory. They cannot afford EU allies making a separate peace with the Russians and dropping their support to Ukraine in order to obtain fuel come winter. I think the Poles gave them territorial access to the Baltic Sea as well as perhaps transport.

Of course publically any investigation will implicate the Russians though. This whole thing makes me think of something Mossad would do. No I don't think it was the Israelis; I think the Ukrainians are taking on a sense "right to self defense" like the Israelis do: they will act independently when they feel their interests are at risk.
 
colonel holman

colonel holman

Veteran Member
It would be a hoot if Russia did not blow NS pipelines, which leaves the US as the most likely culprit. So, Russia decides to rub our nose in it by blowing a few major US underwater pipelines, using drone subs. They select a similarly-important and environmentally-nasty target(s) right offshore US. Would send a real message of FAAFO.

Or… equally sinister would the China sneaking a nasty into the west and Russia, hoping to coax disaster onto both real competitors (US and Russia)
 
P

PrairieMoon

Veteran Member
Question to the experts: Can a dive team place powerful enough explosives for the blast to show up on the Richter scale like it did? Or was higher grade military equipment necessary to complete this job?

Asking....because I have no clue.
 
bw

bw

Fringe Ranger
Yogizorch said:
Start about the 5:50 mark and it explains how to fold U.S. currency to show bombings of the twin towers, the federal building in Oklahoma, the pentagon and future strikes to take down Hoover dam and send a tsunami 7 stories high into NYC.
Click to expand...
Someone has too much free time.
 
D

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
PrairieMoon said:
Asking....because I have no clue.
Click to expand...

In the real world, no one wants to leave noisy calling cards when they do their work, like tapping undersea cables. Back in the dark ages when I worked for the Army, most things like that were done lock out/lock in from subs by SEALS. Now there are drones with the range and capacity to do it.
 
K

Kennori

Contributing Member
If I remember correctly the Russians and the Americans were working on high-speed, long range torpedoes that traveled 500 MPH in a layer of air bubbles and were stand off and shoot from a thousand miles away. A prepositioned homing device clamped to a vessel or dock would be the target. I'll bet the Chinese helped with their amazing guidance and targeting software and equipment. Some could carry small nukes or HE. 5th Gen warfare is here.
 
John Green

John Green

Veteran Member
Kennori said:
If I remember correctly the Russians and the Americans were working on high-speed, long range torpedoes that traveled 500 MPH in a layer of air bubbles and were stand off and shoot from a thousand miles away. A prepositioned homing device clamped to a vessel or dock would be the target. I'll bet the Chinese helped with their amazing guidance and targeting software and equipment. Some could carry small nukes or HE. 5th Gen warfare is here.
Click to expand...
Didn’t China get that amazing stuff from Hillary ?
 
D

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment

The War On Germany Just Entered Its Hot Phase | Main | Open (NOT Ukraine) Thread 2022-159 »
September 28, 2022
Whodunnit? - Facts Related to The Sabotage Attack On The Nord Stream Pipelines
For decades the U.S. opposed European projects to receive energy from Russia. It wants Europe to buy more expensive U.S. oil and gas.

the Lemniscat @theLemniscat - 15:56 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
US plan was always to stop EU buying Russia's gas
2014
Rice:"You want to change the structure of energy dependence. You want to depend more on the North America energy platform ... to have pipelines that don't go through Ukraine & Russia"
View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=aF0uYIjaTNE


Europe's, and especially Germany's industry, depends on cheap energy from Russia. Without it Europe will be de-industrialized and go broke.

The U.S. had threatened to disable the pipelines connecting Europe to Russia.

ABC News @ABC - 9:59pm · 7 Feb 2022
Pres. Biden: "If Russia invades...then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it."
Reporter: "But how will you do that, exactly, since...the project is in Germany's control?"
Biden: "I promise you, we will be able to do that."
abcn.ws/3B5SScx

Currently the U.S. is winning its war on Europe's, mainly Germany's, industries and people. Yesterday's sabotage attack on the Nord Stream I and II pipelines, which are supposed to bring Russian natural gas to Germany, mean that the the war on Germany has entered its hot phase.

A question remains: Whodunnit?

Russia has no motive to destroy the pipelines it owns. These are valuable, long term assets and the gas that escaped from them yesterday was on its own worth some $600 to $800 million.

A pipeline that could be turned off and on again was a leverage point for Russia that gave it some negotiation power. A destroyed pipeline gives Russia no leverage. This is truly elementary. One can not spin that away.

During the war in Ukraine Russia has not stopped to deliver gas to Europe as contractually agreed. Instead European countries, Poland, Ukraine and Germany have blocked overland and sub sea pipelines that brought gas to Germany.

German people have protested against the U.S. ordered shut down of the Nord Stream II pipeline. (Nord Stream I was recently offline because Siemens was prevented by sanctions from maintaining its compressor turbines.)

RadioGenova @RadioGenova - 18:02 UTC · Sep 26, 2022
Thousands of people in Gera in Germany against Olaf Scholz's policy and the explosion of energy and gas prices. They demand an end to sanctions on Russia and the reopening of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline. Demonstrations also in other German cities but EU media censors them.
Embedded video
A day after the protests the pipelines were sabotaged:

AZ @AZmilitary1 - 12:51 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
HERE IT IS
Footage from the site of a gas leak on the underwater section of the Nord Stream.
The video was published by the Danish military.
Earlier, the Kremlin said that it was most likely about sabotage.
The same opinion was expressed in the German government.
Embedded video
Yesterday's attack on the Nord Stream system is not unprecedented:

professional hog groomer @bidetmarxman - 15:51 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
In 2015, the annual routine underwater survey of the Nord Stream 1 pipelines came across a remote operated vehicle rigged with explosives right next to one of the lines in Swedish waters.
The umbilical cable had been cut. The drone’s national origin was never disclosed.

In 2015 Pipeline Journal reported:

[T]he Swedish military has successfully cleared a remote operated vehicle (drone) rigged with explosives found near Line 2 of the Nord Stream Natural Gas offshore pipeline system.
The vehicle was discovered during a routine survey operation as part of the annual integrity assessment of the Nord Stream pipeline. Since it was within the Swedish Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) approximately 120 km away from the island of Gotland, the Swedes called on their armed forces to remove and ultimately disarm the object.
...
The national identity of the drone has not been verified so far, as many countries use Unmanned Underwater Vehicles (UUVs) of a similar construction, [Jesper Stolpe, Swedish Armed Forces spokesman,] said.

To destroy a sub sea pipeline requires more than a ROV/drone delivered shaped charge.

Javier Blas @JavierBlas - 15:18 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
How strong is a Nord Stream pipe? Quite!
The steel pipe itself has a wall of 4.1 centimeters (1.6 inches), and it's coated with another 6-11 cm of steel-reinforced concrete. Each section of the pipe weighs 11 tonnes, which goes to 24-25 tonnes after the concrete is applied.

It wasn't earthquakes that destroyed the pipelines. These were several well targeted and massive explosions:

A Swedish seismologist said on Tuesday he was certain the seismic activity detected at the site of the Nord Stream pipeline gas leaks in the Baltic Sea was caused by explosions and not earthquakes nor landslides.
Bjorn Lund, seismologist at the Swedish National Seismic Network at Uppsala University, said seismic data gathered by him and Nordic colleagues showed that the explosions took place in the water and not in the rock under the seabed.

The targeted explosions were not small:

Dagny Taggart @DagnyTaggart963 - 15:56 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
Swedish seismologists from Lund University noted that "at least 100 kg of TNT (perhaps more) were used to destroy the pipelines."

Here is where the pipelines were hit:


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The Baltic Sea is controlled by NATO. This from June 2022:

"BALTOPS, with the high degree of complexity, tested our collective readiness and adaptability, while also highlighting the strength of our Alliance and resolve in providing a maritime domain with freedom of navigation for all," said Vice Adm. Gene Black, commander, U.S. Sixth Fleet and Naval Striking and Support Forces NATO (STRIKFORNATO).
Led by U.S. Sixth Fleet, BALTOPS 22 was command and controlled by STRIKFORNATO. From the staff’s headquarters in Oeiras, Portugal, Rear Adm. James Morley, STRIKFORNATO deputy commander, was responsible for ensuring participants met all training objectives.
...
[Rear Adm. John Menoni, commander, Expeditionary Strike Group Two,] also noted several instances in which forces stepped beyond know warfare methods to push limits with new technologies at sea and ashore. “Whether it was mine-hunting UUVs, persistent Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance from an observable UAV, or demonstrating the value of the emerging Marine Corps concept of Expeditionary Advance Base Operations (EABO), our men and women continue to develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures that ultimately make meaningful contributions to Maritime Domain Awareness and increase the lethality of our forces.”

At sea, ships fine-tuned tactical maneuvering, anti-submarine warfare, live-fire training, mine countermeasures operations, and replenishments at sea. The Swedish submarine participating in the exercise, the U.K.’s Daring-class air-defense destroyer HMS Defender (D 36), and aircraft from other participating nations trained in anti-submarine warfare. Meanwhile, mine operations served as an ideal area of focus for testing new technology.

Scientists from five nations brought the latest advancements in Unmanned Underwater Vehicle (UUV) mine hunting technology to the Baltic Sea to demonstrate the vehicle’s effectiveness in operational scenarios. The BALTOPS Mine Counter Measure Task Group ventured throughout the Baltic region practicing ordnance location, exploitation, and disarming in critical maritime chokepoints.

While the Baltops 22 maneuver already took place in June and July of this year the U.S. Sixth Fleet left the Baltic Sea only a few days ago (in German, my translation):

Big Fleet Group From U.S. Navy Passes [German island passage] Fehmanbelt
On Wednesday morning the amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge, escorted by the Landing Ships USS Arlington and USS Gunston Hall, was en route towards west. Previously, the ships were part of US units that took part in NATO maneuvers and called at numerous ports in Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltic States.

The "USS Kearsarge", flagship of the association and largest warship of the US Navy, which was in action in the Baltic Sea in the last 30 years, has 40 helicopters and fighter planes as well as more than 2000 soldiers on board, the escort ships about 1000. For the around 4,000 soldiers are heading back home on the east coast of the US after their six-month deployment.

Parts of the Kearsange operations in the Baltic Sea were dedicated to test special sub sea mine destruction technologies:

A significant focus of BALTOPS every year is the demonstration of NATO mine hunting capabilities, and this year the U.S. Navy continues to use the exercise as an opportunity to test emerging technology, U.S. Naval Forces Europe-Africa Public Affairs said June 14.
In support of BALTOPS, U.S. Navy 6th Fleet partnered with U.S. Navy research and warfare centers to bring the latest advancements in unmanned underwater vehicle mine hunting technology to the Baltic Sea to demonstrate the vehicle’s effectiveness in operational scenarios.

Experimentation was conducted off the coast of Bornholm, Denmark, with participants from Naval Information Warfare Center Pacific, Naval Undersea Warfare Center Newport, and Mine Warfare Readiness and Effectiveness Measuring all under the direction of U.S. 6th Fleet Task Force 68.

Off the coast of Bornholm, Denmark, is where the pipelines were hit. Just days ago the USS Kearsarge was in that area:

AZ @AZmilitary1 - 13:52 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
An expeditionary detachment of US Navy ships led by the universal amphibious assault ship USS Kearsarge days ago was in the Baltic Sea
It was 30 km from the site of the alleged sabotage on the Nord Stream-1 gas pipeline and 50 km from the threads of Nord Stream-2 gas pipeline

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AZ @AZmilitary1 - 14:12 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
On September 2, interesting maneuvers performed by an American helicopter with the call sign FFAB123. Then it was assumed that this board was from the USS Kearsarge air wing, and today more details were looked.
According to the website ads-b.nl , this call sign was used by 6 boards that day, of which we managed to establish the side numbers of three. All of them are Sikorsky MH-60S.

By superimposing the FFAB123 route on the scheme of yesterday's accident, we get a rather interesting result — the helicopter either flew along the Nord Stream-2 highway, or even between the points where the accident occurred.

On Twitter, meanwhile, there were screenshots of other flights of American aviation — the following screenshot was taken on September 13.


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The MH-60S carries big electromagnetic sensors which allows it to detect submarines, mines and - in the shallow waters of the Baltic Sea - sub sea pipelines.


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This overlay picture of two others posted above is especially of interest:


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The U.S. military is not the only force that was near the area of the pipeline damage. Just a 100 kilometer south is the Polish naval base Kolobrzeg (the former German Kolberg) which harbors mine laying ships and the 8th Kołobrzeg Naval Combat Engineer Battalion. Naval combat engineers are experts in blowing up anything that is under water, be it mines or pipelines.


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In 2021, while Nord Stream 2 was still being build, the Polish navy had interfered and endangered the pipe laying vessels in the very same place.

Artifaktus @bzyqer - 7:49 UTC · Sep 28, 2022
Gdy Wy mycie zęby, przebieracie się w piżamy i szykujecie do snu, jeden niestrudzony Polak wyrusza w swoją łodzią w kierunku Bornholmu mając na sercu dobro Polski a może i Niemiec ...

Translated from Polish by Google
When you brush your teeth, put on your pajamas and get ready to go to sleep, one tireless Pole sets off in his boat towards Bornholm with the good of Poland and maybe Germany at heart ...
Image

During the recent Ukraine crisis Poland has rejected to receive Russian gas. It closed the Yamal pipeline that transports natural gas from Russia to Germany. Poland continued to consume Russia gas. It received it from Germany which had received it through the Nord Stream I pipeline from Russia.

Poland and Denmark have build a new sub sea pipeline which connects it to the pipeline that brings Norwegian gas to the Netherlands and Europe.


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The pipeline was opened yesterday, the very same day the Nord Stream system was sabotaged.

Chancellery of the Prime Minister of Poland @PremierRP_en - 11:25 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
The #BalticPipe is a joint Polish-Danish investment in the energy security of the region.
Image
Chancellery of the Prime Minister of Poland @PremierRP_en - 13:43 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
The launching ceremony of the #BalticPipe gas pipeline with participation of PM @MorawieckiM , PM of Denmark Mette Frederiksen & @prezydentpl @AndrzejDuda.
The Baltic Pipe is a strategic infrastructure project aimed at creating a new gas supply corridor on the European market.
Video
The Baltic Pipe has a capacity of only 10 billion cubic meters per year. The Nord Stream system could carry up to 110 cubic meter per year. All of which is needed to keep Europe's industries running.

For more on Poland's involvement, likely in cooperation with the U.S., read these informed speculations by John Helmer:

The explosions at Bornholm are the new Polish strike for war in Europe against Chancellor Olaf Scholz. So far the Chancellery in Berlin is silent, tellingly.
The Poles should be reminded that other countries also have the capabilities to sabotage sub sea pipelines.

Radosław Sikorski is a former Minister of Defense and Foreign Minister of Poland. He is now a Member of the European Parliament. Yesterday he posted a picture of the gas escaping the damaged Nord Stream pipelines and thanked the U.S. for blowing them up.


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Sikorski is married to the neoconservative writer Anne Appelbaum who is notorious for her anti-Russian and anti-German screeds widely published in U.S. media.

In 2014 during the Maidan coup in Ukraine another notorious neoconservative, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, told the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, who should become the new prime minister of the Ukraine. She famously expressed her opinion about European concerns: "**** the EU" Nuland said. She is currently the U.S. Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs.

Over the last decades Germany has financed the Euro zone with up to 1.24 trillion Euros. (See also this thread). This was possible because Germany was exporting lots of industrial products and had a yearly surplus from its trade. With Germany's industry going down because a lack of cheap energy that surplus will vanish. Europe, all of it, will become a poor continent.

Philip Pilkington @philippilk - 21:23 UTC · Sep 27, 2022
9/ The European energy war will likely go down in history, together with the Treaty of Versailles and the trade wars of the 1930s, as one of the biggest economic policy errors in history.

10/ Another thing: when Trump was elected on a platform of milder protectionism, many people rightly pointed to the 1920s and 1930s and warned against these policies. These same people appear to have supported these much more 1920s/30s-like policies this past year. Ironic.

This does not happen by chance or fate. It is part of a long term neoconservative plan for continued U.S. supremacy over the world. The Anglo-American axis is the only party to benefit from the recent events.

The U.S. allegedly warned Germany of sabotage of the Nord Stream system (in German).

This reminds of President Joe Biden's warning of a Russian invasion in Ukraine early this year.

It is easy to predict such events when you are the one who intends to cause them.

The U.S. knew that the Ukraine was going to launch an attack on the Donbas republics. The U.S. knew that Russia would intervene to help its brethren. Russia had said so. The Ukrainian attack started with artillery preparations on February 17. Russia intervened on February 24.

The above is a collection of the currently available facts. You can draw your own conclusions from them.

Posted by b on September 28, 2022 at 9:56 UTC | Permalink
 
Southside

Southside

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Doc1 said:
Additional posters have said that the pipeline depth at the point of the explosions was 70 meters. That's just a few inches shy of 230 feet. That's a figurative world of difference from 1000 meters and opens up the possibilities dramatically. It's also well within the capabilities of divers, with a few caveats.

At 230' the divers must use mixed gas and go through long decompression. Before anyone here pipes up that 230' is possible on air, I will state that it is possible to dive air at 230', but it's neither safe nor practical for a working dive. If anyone is interested in why it's not practical, let me know and I'll address it in a different post. For now, just take my word for it that saboteur divers would not use air, k?

If we are to suppose that our saboteur divers had to do everything underwater to avoid detection - to include getting to the target and back - then we encounter much more difficulty than if the dive(s) were made with surface support. I've been on a lot of (commercial) mixed gas jobs at that depth and deeper, with surface support. Working at that depth covertly without surface support, makes everything much more complicated.

With surface support, depending on the duration of the dive and type of work to be done, a habitat and diving bell might be used. The divers would live in a pressurized habitat on the deck of the barge or work boat and travel to and from the dive site in a pressurized bell, which locks onto the habitat. The divers in the habitat may live in it for many days or even a week or two. Everything they consume (water, food, toilet paper, etc.) must be locked into the habitat. Very short dives could be made without the habitat and bell, but even then the in-water decompression would be considerable.

Before I go any further understand that there's no getting around decompression. Irrespective of how the divers get to the site facilities for decompression have to be figured into the equation.

This leads me to believe that a submarine with lock in/lock out capability was used and additionally, that the submarine had its own habitat-like facility for the divers to live in and later, decompress. This would not be done with a small submarine. The US does have such submarines.

Lastly, it's possible that divers weren't used at all. A large submarine could carry a small submersible which the crew could use to deliver the explosives to the demolition site. Even this might be more complicated than it appears at first blush. Many pipelines are buried (or 'jetted') into the seabed to prevent them from being snagged by anchors. You'd have to know if the pipeline was buried and if so to what depth beneath the seabed. Then you would have to decide what equipment was needed to find the pipeline and place the explosives beneath the it (and they would want the explosive to be placed beneath the pipeline). The US does have these types of submersibles and the crews for them.

None of what I've written above would be a light undertaking. It's really the stuff of a Tom Clancy novel! Oh, and speaking of books, anyone interested in the subject should read the excellent, "Blind Man's Bluff; The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage." We - that is, America - have been doing this sort of stuff for decades.

Whoever did it and however the pipeline sabotage was accomplished and irrespective of whether you approve of or condemn the sabotage, major kudos must be given to all of the crew involved. It was a spectacularly professional job and I'll look forward to reading the story in future histories.

Best
Doc
Click to expand...
We get back to the same old, same old.
Only a few players at that game. A huge undertaking.
 
Hfcomms

Hfcomms

EN66iq
Misery loves company. Don't you think some paybacks are in store for US energy infrastructure now? Probably the same 'team' that demo'd the Nord 1&2 pipelines are going to be the same ones that do something here. Look for a big US critical infrastructure target to be taken out shortly.

Got preps??
 
Walrus Whisperer

Walrus Whisperer

Hope in chains...
CaryC said:
Sure no problem. Even easier than during WWII, and Vietnam. Don't even have to go to the polls. Just sit at home and watch TV the Dominion machines will vote for you.
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I'm already there. They pulled the dominion voting machines out earlier this year, checked them over, declared them good to go. Put back in storage.:kk2:
 
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