INTL India - China border crisis (Main Thread)

danielboon

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BREAKING: Reports that at least 20 Indian Army soldiers were killed in a clash with Chinese troops in the Galwan valley, Ladakh.
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Rahul Kanwal

@rahulkanwal
· 27m
Indian Army confirms 20 deaths. Toll could go up further.
 

jward

passin' thru
Ian Miles Cheong
@stillgray

34m

India and China are having a full blown border war right now in the Galwan valley in Eastern Ladakh. 20 confirmed dead for India. "43 casualties including dead and seriously injured" for China.

********************************************

& food for thought from random folk in twitter-verse


John McGrath
@jfmcg21

31m

Replying to
@stillgray
and
@JackPosobiec
CCP is threatened by their neighbor India, which happens to be the world’s largest democracy. Don’t be surprised if they nudge Pakistan Into the widening skirmishes.


The Resilience
@Resilience108

29m

The India Pakistan LoC has been very heated since the morning. Heavy shelling and firing. In all likelihood, Pak China are coordinating fully.



John McGrat
@jfmcg21

26m

Pakistan is one of CCPs rooks on their chessboard. The other Rook is NK. Russia and Putin are a clever bishop. Iran is likely a malignant bishop.



The Resilience
@Resilience108

23m

Yep. There's a saying here that China has two mad dogs under it's control- One is North Korea and the other is Pakistan.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
Per Kalika, the Indian Central Government has advised all military services to be ready for possible action. I don't think they're quite to the war-footing stage yet, but I think they have been told to get ready to move to that condition.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Ian Miles Cheong
@stillgray

34m

India and China are having a full blown border war right now in the Galwan valley in Eastern Ladakh. 20 confirmed dead for India. "43 casualties including dead and seriously injured" for China.

********************************************

& food for thought from random folk in twitter-verse


John McGrath
@jfmcg21

31m

Replying to
@stillgray
and
@JackPosobiec
CCP is threatened by their neighbor India, which happens to be the world’s largest democracy. Don’t be surprised if they nudge Pakistan Into the widening skirmishes.


The Resilience
@Resilience108

29m

The India Pakistan LoC has been very heated since the morning. Heavy shelling and firing. In all likelihood, Pak China are coordinating fully.



John McGrat
@jfmcg21

26m

Pakistan is one of CCPs rooks on their chessboard. The other Rook is NK. Russia and Putin are a clever bishop. Iran is likely a malignant bishop.



The Resilience
@Resilience108

23m

Yep. There's a saying here that China has two mad dogs under it's control- One is North Korea and the other is Pakistan.

The analytical musings above are hard to ignore. It certainly is curious that all of China's enemies are in a position to be forked with by proxies at this time...
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Per Kalika, the Indian Central Government has advised all military services to be ready for possible action. I don't think they're quite to the war-footing stage yet, but I think they have been told to get ready to move to that condition.

The day is young.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
India: per News24, the military has ordered the evacuation of civilians from the border area of Himachal Pradesh (Note: This is NOT the state of Jammu/Kashmir where the Galwan valley is located; it's the state next door).


ETA: India has been in contact with Israel, and Israel has indicated that they're ready to help. Somehow I think China will experience an unpleasant surprise if Israeli military forces show up.

Apparently at least some of the Indian casualties are the result of Chinese troops throwing grenades.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
That's... curious. :shkr:

Yeah, especially since this is the middle of the night. The military is literally going door-to-door in the areas they're concerned about and just telling people to "get out". There's no coordinated evacuation plan, no temporary camping/shelter locations, etc because of the Wuhan virus crap, so these people have nowhere to go, but they're being told "you can't stay here".
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Yeah, especially since this is the middle of the night. The military is literally going door-to-door in the areas they're concerned about and just telling people to "get out". There's no coordinated evacuation plan, no temporary camping/shelter locations, etc because of the Wuhan virus crap, so these people have nowhere to go, but they're being told "you can't stay here".

Something wicked windborne their way comes, perhaps?

(I did say the day was young...)
 

Plain Jane

Just Plain Jane

India Confirms 20 Soldiers Killed In Border Clash With Chinese Forces; Reports Of 43 PLA Casualties
Profile picture for user Tyler Durden
by Tyler Durden
Tue, 06/16/2020 - 14:19
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Earlier in the day we reported that Indian Army officials said that three troops - an officer and two soldiers, to be more precise - had been gunned down by Chinese forces during a "violent faceoff" in Galwan Valley in the Ladakh region Monday night.
In an official follow-up statement, the Indian Army now says as of Tuesday evening local time that an additional seventeen soldiers were critically injured in the exchange of fire, and since succumbed to their wounds after being “exposed to sub-zero temperatures in the high altitude terrain.” This brings the official Indian death toll to 20 soldiers killed.
With the whole incident still shrouded in contradictory claims and lack of confirmation on potential Chinese casualties from Beijing - even after widespread unverified Indian media reports claimed that up to 43 Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) were killed or injured in the clashes, one thing is for sure that this is the biggest and deadliest border clash between the nuclear-armed neighbors in a half-century.
India-China Ladakh, Indian media file image.

The only thing approaching an 'official' statement from Beijing appears to come via state media. The highly visible editor of state-run Global Times Hu Xijin, who's often served as unofficial mouthpiece conveying Beijing official sentiment to the West tweeted the following in the aftermath Tuesday, calling it "goodwill from Beijing":

The Chinese side didn’t release number of PLA casualties in clash with Indian soldiers. My understanding is the Chinese side doesn’t want people of the two countries to compare the casualties number so to avoid stoking public mood.
Importantly, Xijin confirmed that there were indeed casualties on the Chinese side.


Hu Xijin 胡锡进

@HuXijin_GT

https://twitter.com/HuXijin_GT/status/1272901941140561924

Chinese side didn’t release number of PLA casualties in clash with Indian soldiers. My understanding is the Chinese side doesn’t want people of the two countries to compare the casualties number so to avoid stoking public mood. This is goodwill from Beijing.

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10:40 AM - Jun 16, 2020
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He stated further: "Based on what I know, Chinese side also suffered casualties in the Galwan Valley physical clash," in a follow-up tweet.




"I want to tell the Indian side, don’t be arrogant and misread China’s restraint as being weak. China doesn’t want to have a clash with India, but we don’t fear it," the GT editor added.

And BBC reports of the new statements:

It added that "17 Indian troops who were critically injured in the line of duty" and died from their injuries, taking the "total that were killed in action to 20".

China did not confirm any casualties, but accused India in turn of crossing the border onto the Chinese side.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said India had crossed the border twice on Monday, "provoking and attacking Chinese personnel, resulting in serious physical confrontation between border forces on the two sides", AFP news agency reported.

India blamed Beijing for "an attempt by the Chinese side to unilaterally change the status quo" on the border, according to Indian media.

With tensions this high, and no doubt the national medias of each country about to spend days whipping their citizens into a frenzy, there's likely more to come along the restive and disputed Line of Control (LOC).

We should add that strangely, the Indian army is still claiming as of Tuesday that "no shots were fired" in this latest major clash.

This is of course a not so insignificant detail which has left many observers scratching their heads, but then again, border skirmishes between the two have been known to involve stones, sticks, and fist-fights. Given the high casualty count, gunfire is most likely, or perhaps they fought with bayonets?
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
According to Kalika, who has been keeping up with Hindi-language news, the Colonel and two soldiers who were initially killed had been invited by the Chinese to a talk over the disputed area they were in, and when the Indians arrived at the talk, the Chinese apparently attacked them with knives. That triggered the wider brawl. The fight itself happened on a pathway on the side of a narrow gorge, and many of the casualties were the result of soldiers falling into the gorge.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
According to Kalika, who has been keeping up with Hindi-language news, the Colonel and two soldiers who were initially killed had been invited by the Chinese to a talk over the disputed area they were in, and when the Indians arrived at the talk, the Chinese apparently attacked them with knives. That triggered the wider brawl. The fight itself happened on a pathway on the side of a narrow gorge, and many of the casualties were the result of soldiers falling into the gorge.

Good lord.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
Further details: Apparently, when the Indians approached the location of the talks, they were unarmed, and there were about 50 of them. The Chinese on the other hand had around 500 personnel, and all were armed with knives, machetes and grenades. It was an outright ambush. There are reports of Indian soldiers with horrific wounds including eviscerations.
 

TheSearcher

Are you sure about that?
Further details: Apparently, when the Indians approached the location of the talks, they were unarmed, and there were about 50 of them. The Chinese on the other hand had around 500 personnel, and all were armed with knives, machetes and grenades. It was an outright ambush. There are reports of Indian soldiers with horrific wounds including eviscerations.

I have a horrible feeling about this. If the details are accurate, this was a historic moment of treachery, and India is well within its rights to respond ferociously. Does China want a war this badly? The dice being rolled can flatten countries...
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
News reports of large Indian military convoys headed to Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Sikkim, and Arunachal Pradesh.

Also, in case it wasn't mentioned earlier, I believe I read somewhere that India has moved Brahmos missiles to the region.
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I never realized that my nephew's Scots ancestors and his Chinese ones would have this particular nasty trait between them.

I used to tease my Mother's cousins The Campbells that their family had invited my father's family The Lamonts (or Mount) to dinner and then butchered them all.

I believe several different Scots clans pulled this same trick on their rivals over the centuries, I don't know Chinese history very well, but obviously it wasn't something the Indians were expecting (nor is there a reason for them to have been unless there is more to this story than we already know.
 

AlfaMan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
From ANI-story won't copy and paste over....

Ladakh face-off: Alert in Himachal Pradesh's Lahaul-Spiti, Kinnaur border districts

Ladakh face-off: Alert in Himachal Pradesh's Lahaul-Spiti, Kinnaur border districts
Read more At:
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________

The whole region around the Galwan is definitively NOT tank country. This is a misstep on their part IMHO. Lots of rock, loose soil, steep hills, no concealment to speak of. All it'll take is one or two Indian attack helicopters or CAS aircraft to utterly wreck a Chinese armored column trapped on one of those narrow mountain roads up there.
Or alternately, a small detachment of fast-moving sappers with some dynamite charges. Lots and lots of steep, rocky hillsides in the area that can be dropped from considerable height onto passing tank columns.
 
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Paladin1

"In Omnia Paratus" is more than just a phrase
The whole region around the Galwan is definitively NOT tank country. This is a misstep on their part IMHO. Lots of rock, loose soil, steep hills, no concealment to speak of. All it'll take is one or two Indian attack helicopters or CAS aircraft to utterly wreck a Chinese armored column trapped on one of those narrow mountain roads up there.
Or alternately, a small detachment of fast-moving sappers with some dynamite charges. Lots and lots of steep, rocky hillsides in the area that can be dropped from considerable height onto passing tank columns.
Unless they're not intended for the first wave but rather a breakout push once the passes are open and ADA brought up to cover them.

Armor in quantity like that makes me think that the CCP intends to push this a lot farther than just a border skirmish.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
Unless they're not intended for the first wave but rather a breakout push once the passes are open and ADA brought up to cover them.

Armor in quantity like that makes me think that the CCP intends to push this a lot farther than just a border skirmish.

That'd be a hell of a breakout push. There's essentially no open ground for a hundred km at any point along the India-China border. Just lots and lots of narrow, deep valleys with thousands of places for small anti-tank missile teams to hide.
 

Paladin1

"In Omnia Paratus" is more than just a phrase
That'd be a hell of a breakout push. There's essentially no open ground for a hundred km at any point along the India-China border. Just lots and lots of narrow, deep valleys with thousands of places for small anti-tank missile teams to hide.
If thats the case, then I would suspect deception, with the armor as the "look at me" bait and the real push coming in another fashion or even another direction. This whole thing, especially after reading about the initial Chinese ambush, just feels off to me, tbh.
 

The Mountain

Here since the beginning
_______________
If thats the case, then I would suspect deception, with the armor as the "look at me" bait and the real push coming in another fashion or even another direction. This whole thing, especially after reading about the initial Chinese ambush, just feels off to me, tbh.

Remember that there's activity all along the border, from Kashmir in the west to Arunachal in the east. At least one local news outlet in India expressed concern that China might try to foment chaos and disrupt Indian military operations by opening all their dams on the Brahmaputra river, which would flood large areas in eastern India, necessitating large rescue efforts. The tanks might well be headed not for the mountainous flash points currently active, but on over and down into Pakistan for use on the wide deserts of Punjab. Pakistan did start fairly heavy shelling along their own Kashmir border with India at about the same time as the Chinese perfidy, and have said they're on China's side in all of this. China did just recently make several large loans to Pakistan, so the Pak ISI is already in China's pocket.
 
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