CRIME When do you kill them?

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
This isn't a rhetorical question. If you are concerned about ANTIFA/rioters (or any other criminals) threatening your family, home or business, it behooves you to learn the deadly force laws in your state.

Currently, most folks on this board are understandably concerned with the rioters and civil unrest the country is experiencing, but for the vast majority of us this is not going to be a personal threat. While civil unrest is definitely something to be aware of, the US is entering an ever-increasing economic cataclysm. We're seeing tens of millions going jobless, losing their accommodations and - eventually - more people literally going hungry. This cannot help but result in an explosion of crime, whether driven by desperation or mere opportunity.

Crime is far more likely to affect suburban and rural dwellers than riots are. Be aware that (for the most part) homicide is a state, not a federal crime. Effectively this means that this country has a patchwork of fifty different sets of laws pertaining to deadly force.

Before, or at least in addition to, learning more about your firearms and training, you need to put some serious study into when and where you're allowed to use them in defense.

Best
Doc
 

Signwatcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Our forefathers used to say, "Shoot when you can see the whites of their eyes." I learned that in school. Wonder what their advice would be in these modern times? Bet they would have shot long before now.
 

Satanta

Stone Cold Crazy
_______________
Our forefathers used to say, "Shoot when you can see the whites of their eyes." I learned that in school. Wonder what their advice would be in these modern times? Bet they would have shot long before now.

Our Forefathers used Muskets that were only accurate to about 40 feet or so.

Now with proper optics you can see the Whites of the eyes a good Mile away.

I think when the first building went up in flames, the first person took a Brick to the head or a Bat to the Face it was then Open Season.

I'm not in a City so, if they come here it won't really be a Question of Motives but who gets Ghosted first.
 
Ability and Intent.
They are controlling an object; brick, Molotov, bat, knife, gun, at a distance that can harm you. They demonstrate the intent to use the object to harm you. They pull back the arm holding the object, aim the gun, light the fuse, advance with the bat or knife. A reasonable person will believe their life, or another’s, is in imminent danger and lethal force is justified.
That’s how i see it.
 

Old Gray Mare

TB Fanatic
Doc is soooo right! Never ever assume! I recently found out (luckily not the hard way) how dramatically laws can differ state to state. Another thing I found out is not to expect a straight answer from LE. Apologies to LE on the board. This was from my personal experience. YMMV.

I found a lawyer and fire arms class instructor much more concise and informative.

Also please don't assume you can protect property. Find out the laws in your state. It could be very important.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
West Virginia is a stand your ground state and you are allowed to defend yourself and the life of others, but West Virginia does have a brandishing law on the books thats been allowed to be abused a few times over the years so no pulling out a firearm in public even if you think on one looking unless there is a serious threat of death to you or someone else.
 

SmithJ

Veteran Member
You better pray you don’t have to, you better do everything in your power NOT to be in a situation where you have to, and

if you ever have to, you better be damn sure that either your life or the life of a loved one is in IMMEDIATE danger of being lost.

Even then you can expect your life as you know it to end, your savings to be depleted and every post you made on here and other websites to be published and scrutinized endlessly.

If it turns out better for you, you can thank the lord that you were spared.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
If I think my life is being threatened, I won't be worrying about what the law says.
One problem at a time.

In the bigger picture, most people in this country are going to loose just about everything they have. That is what Communism does. Scads of people will be hauled off to jail/camps for mere thought crimes. That is what collectivism requires. Antifa will only get more violent, and we are looking at South African style home invasions. On top of that, most of the population will be nearly starving.

2020 and forward isn't going to be anything like 2019.
Prioritize what you need to actually worry about.
 
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Samuel Adams

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Consider the genius of the “war” that is waged firmly against “us”.

The enemy has us splitting hairs, as we each stand very much alone, to be set upon alone, by any number of fairly well organized hostiles, on their timeline.

The time is not far off when it WILL be “a time to kill”, immediately followed by the time to kill those who might forcibly second guess your best efforts.

Someone is going to win this.

Someone is going to lose.

There are far worse fates than death.

A life in chains, knowing you should have, while watching your country and progeny mire in inescapable agony, is only one of them.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
If I think my life is being threatened, I won't be worrying about what the law says.

While that is the main concern, and would be a valid defense, understand that will not work in all cases.

Castle laws are in place in a lot of states, to include being in the car. There are restrictions so know them. Like you must be under a roof. Meaning you can't go out hunting them. You have to be at home, under a porch, etc. They can be in the yard.

Stand your ground laws are for when out in public. You cannot be the one who provoked the fight. It is for defense only.

Castle laws can be used to protect property, however a lot of that depends on the sheriff/police's view where you live.

If you are at home with a fence and gate and they ram it, it's reasonable to assume your life is in danger.

And that will be the key at trial, if it comes to that, what would a jury of your peers believe to be reasonable defense.
 

Faroe

Un-spun
While that is the main concern, and would be a valid defense, understand that will not work in all cases.

Castle laws are in place in a lot of states, to include being in the car. There are restrictions so know them. Like you must be under a roof. Meaning you can't go out hunting them. You have to be at home, under a porch, etc. They can be in the yard.

Stand your ground laws are for when out in public. You cannot be the one who provoked the fight. It is for defense only.

Castle laws can be used to protect property, however a lot of that depends on the sheriff/police's view where you live.

If you are at home with a fence and gate and they ram it, it's reasonable to assume your life is in danger.

And that will be the key at trial, if it comes to that, what would a jury of your peers believe to be reasonable defense.
I don't see trials in our future.
Whites don't need trials, we are already guilty.
We are not looking at the same world.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I don't see trials in our future.
Whites don't need trials, we are already guilty.
We are not looking at the same world.
While that may true - zombie hordes, and all that for sure.

If you try something this weekend, it may be a different story.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Your bastion is your property. The expression "property is 9/10ths of the law" is accurate. Property Ownership is sacred and fundamental to all your other human rights. (A fact frequently lost among the AntiFa/Black coalition.)

If someone attempts to TAKE your property - THEN (state permitting) you use your gun.

Best to find out this status ahead of time.

Dobbin
 

Faroe

Un-spun
While that may true - zombie hordes, and all that for sure.

If you try something this weekend, it may be a different story.
Not planning on killing anyone this weekend, but thanks.
Don't know anything about zombies. Have only read about revolutions and war.
Dunno....We seem to be in one.
Hope it fizzles, but sometimes they drag on indefinitely.
Rules change. We are on our own.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
“STATE-permitting”?

Let us not forget that STATE is the largest and most well organized threat to property since the first man was “elected” to represent the same.
This true - but this a different battle.

Your defense against this latter is your numbers. Guns (many) and the ballot box equalizes the force effect.

Their offense against the former is THEIR numbers. A gun and logistical position equalizes the force effect.

Dobbin
 

llknp

Senior Member
Anyone who’s taken a CCW class knows the shoot/don’t shoot laws.
Exactly. Know your local and state laws. Formulate a plan. Tell it to no one. Least of all, on here. I see people on here and else where saying what they would have done in certain instances regarding shooting. No one know how they will respond until the shooting starts, trust me.
 

Txkstew

Veteran Member
There was a story I heard second hand, about two guys who had worked at a place I was working. It involved an older guy, and a young hot headed guy.

The young guy showed up at the old guys house, and stood outside in the yard, holding a gun. He was screaming at the old guy to come outside so he could kill him. The old guy, pistol in hand, kicked open the the screen door, and came out shooting. Hit the young guy several times in the chest.

Sheriff was called, and when they arrived, there was this dead guy laying on his back, still holding his gun. Nothing was done to the old guy, and I don't think it even went to the Grand Jury.

That said, you can't just shoot someone who comes into your yard, or knocks on your door. An armed mob, screaming and coming up the drive way, is another story. That's what AR15s with 30 round mags are for.
 

Ogre

Veteran Member
Anyone who’s taken a CCW class knows the shoot/don’t shoot laws.
Yes, at the time they took the class. For many, that could have been many years ago. Have they stayed up to date on any and all the changes since then? I think instructors are missing a bet by not offering a reduced price refresher class on the laws. Then again, all their classes may already be full.
 

NoMoreLibs

Kill Commie's, Every Single One Of Them!
Kill them when you realize their leftist Karen's. When the threat to family is evident.
 
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Faroe

Un-spun
Yes, at the time they took the class. For many, that could have been many years ago. Have they stayed up to date on any and all the changes since then? I think instructors are missing a bet by not offering a reduced price refresher class on the laws. Then again, all their classes may already be full.
I went through the whole CCW rigmarole a year-something ago. I need to check the date, so I know when it expires. A follow up class with target shooting is required IIRC, after two(?)years. The original class and cert. was a bad experience (strongly disliked the instructor, but did fine on the test and target shooting), finger prints, background check, expensive...the whole process sucked. .gov treats you like a criminal, at least in this state.

At this point, I may not bother renewing.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
I believe the answer to that question is now … in a time of transition. Even so, it is a decision which every individual needs to explore in their own mind, and ponder in advance.
 

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
When do you kill them? When they leave me no other option.

A reasonable person will believe their life, or another’s, is in imminent danger and lethal force is justified.

These aren't always true.

It varies wildly, by state.

Here is a guideline for Texas.

When is a Person Justified in Using Deadly Force to Protect a Person?
Penal Code 9.32 sets out that person can use deadly force when he reasonably believes it is immediately necessary to:
  • protect against another’s use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force, or
  • to prevent an aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
When is a Person Justified in Using Deadly Force to Protect Property?
Generally, a person may use force, but not deadly force, to protect property. There are, however, some important exceptions. Under Penal Code 9.42, deadly force may be used to protect land or property when a person reasonably believes that deadly force is immediately necessary to:
  • prevent arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft at night, or criminal mischief during nighttime;
  • prevent someone fleeing with property after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime.
However, the person must also be able to show that he reasonably believed that the land or property could not be protected or recovered by any other means or that the use of non-deadly force would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Is There a Duty to Retreat Under the Castle Doctrine?
The Castle Doctrine relieves a person of the duty to retreat when he is justified in using deadly force against another if:
No Duty to Retreat Castle Doctrine

  • the actor has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used
  • the actor has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and
  • the actor is not engaged in criminal activity at the time that the deadly force is used.
Texas Penal Code 9.32(d) further provides that in determining whether or not the actor’s belief was reasonable, the trier of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat. In other words, a person generally does not have to retreat on their property and their decision not to retreat cannot be used as a fact against them in determining whether their belief that deadly force was needed was a reasonable belief or not.
What is Reasonable Under the Castle Doctrine?
The question of reasonability will always be one for the fact-finder, whether that is a grand jury, a petit jury, or a judge. However, there are instances where reasonability is presumed. The Castle Doctrine in Texas provides a presumption of using force against another person who is:
  • unlawfully and with force entering or attempts to enter your habitation, vehicle, or workplace; or
  • attempting to remove you, by force, from your habitation, vehicle, or workplace;
  • committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
Does the Castle Doctrine Extend to my Work Place or Business?
Yes, the Castle Doctrine extends to your place of employment and your business.
Does the Castle Doctrine Extend to my Vehicle, RV, and Gator?
Yes. The Castle Doctrine extends to any vehicle routinely used for transportation, including planes, trucks, cars, golf carts, and ATVs. Vehicles are considered your property and covered by the law if you face an intruder.
When is an Owner Not Entitled to a Castle Doctrine Defense?
  • Provoking the difficulty
If a property owner provokes an individual and that leads to violence or if the property owner is taking part in any criminal activity, the owner is not protected.
  • Otherwise Breaking the Law
A person that is engaged in criminal activity will not be entitled to a castle doctrine defense
Can You Shoot Someone on Your Property Who Makes a Verbal Threat?
Texas law provides that a verbal threat alone is not sufficient to justify use deadly force. So a person saying, “I will kill you” may not be enough to use deadly force, but a person who says, “I will kill you” while holding a knife goes beyond mere words; they have the ability to carry out their threat.
Can You Shoot Someone Who Makes a Threat of Future Harm?
Notice the law authorizes the use of deadly force only when it is “immediately necessary.” If someone says, “I will come back and kill you tomorrow,” it will be difficult to show the use of deadly force at the time of the statement was immediately necessary.
Can I Threaten to Shoot Someone When I Am Authorized to Only Use Non-Deadly Force?
Yes. Under Penal Code 9.04, you can draw a weapon and threaten a person if you are justified in using force. Note the requirement is not that you had to be justified in using deadly force. The law also requires that when you pull a weapon and make a threat to protect property or a person, you do so with the limited purpose of causing fear in the intruder that you will use deadly force if necessary.
Can You Shoot a Trespasser?
While trespassing on property other than your home alone will not give rise to the lawful use of deadly force, there is a presumption that deadly force is immediately necessary when someone has unlawfully entered or is attempting to enter by using force. Additionally, deadly force may be used against an intruder at night who you reasonably believe will imminently commit theft or criminal mischief.
Can I Shoot Someone to Protect my Property?
Texas Penal Code 9.41 permits the use of force to protect property. It does not permit the use of deadly force to merely protect property under most circumstances. This changes when someone attempts to forcefully enter your house or enters your house by force. Your house includes your porch and attached garages, but does not include detached garages. It also changes when you can meet the elements of Penal Code 9.42.
Texas Penal Code Section 9.42 requires that all three of the following circumstances exist in order for you be justified in employing deadly force to protect property.
1. You must be justified in using force;
2. Must only be to the degree you reasonably believe deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent:
a. the imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; orb. Someone fleeing from those things; or
3. To the degree that you reasonably believe that
a. The land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means, orb. Using a lesser force would expose you or someone else to the substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Misconceptions About the Castle Doctrine
Misconception One: “Standing Your Ground” means you can use deadly force and you don’t have to back down during an argument.
Generally, you can use force “to the degree” a person reasonably believes such force is “immediately necessary” to protect against another person’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. In other words, if someone is about to clock you, you are allowed to defend yourself with your hands…but don’t expect the law to protect you if you bring a gun to that fist fight. Generally speaking, you can defend yourself with the same level of force that is being used against you. Using deadly force, however, has additional requirements. You would have to show that you used to force to protect against the other person’s use of unlawful deadly force or to prevent an aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
A person can only “stand their ground” if they have a right to be present at the location, they did not provoke the person against whom the force is being used, and were not engaged in criminal activity at the time they are using the force. Threatening to kill someone while you display a deadly weapon is generally going to be the second-degree felony offense of Aggravated Assault with a Deadly Weapon.
Misconception Two: You can Shoot Someone for a Getting in Your Face
Verbal provocation alone is never justification for the use of force. It doesn’t matter what the other person is saying. If you respond with anything from a fist to a firearm, you are going to be charged with a criminal offense. That includes a person getting in your face with their finger waving. That includes an unarmed person saying they are going to kill you.
Misconception Three: You Can Set Conditions that Allow You to Shoot
If a gunman says, “If you come within three-foot of me, I’m going to kill you” and then the other party violates the condition, it still does not give the gunman the legal authority to shoot.
Things to Remember about Self-Defense in Texas
  • A defendant is entitled to a jury instruction on self-defense if the issue [of self-defense] is raised by the evidence, whether that evidence is strong or weak, unimpeached or contradicted, and regardless of what the trial court may think about the credibility of the defense.
  • When reviewing a trial court’s decision denying a request for a self-defense instruction, a reviewing court considers the evidence in the light most favorable to the defendant’s requested submission.
  • A trial court errs in denying a self-defense instruction if there is some evidence, from any source, when viewed in the light most favorable to the defendant, that will support the elements of self-defense.
  • Under Penal Code § 9.31, a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree that person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against another person’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. The use of force against another is not justified in response to verbal provocation alone.
  • Under Penal Code § 9.32, a person is justified in using deadly force if he would be justified in using force under Tex. Penal Code § 9.31, and he reasonably believes that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect himself against another’s use or attempted use of deadly force.
  • Under Penal Code § 9.04, the threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by chapter 9. A threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, provided the actor’s purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
Penal Code 9.31:
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor’s belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;
(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer’s presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);
(3) if the actor consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other;
(4) if the actor provoked the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor; or(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor’s differences with the other person while the actor was:
(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor’s differences with the other person while the actor was:
(A) carrying a weapon in violation of Section 46.02; or
(B) possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of Section 46.05.
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer’s (or other person’s) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.
(d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.
(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.
(f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
Penal Code 9.32
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The actor’s belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.
(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.
(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
Penal Code 9.41
(a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other’s imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

 

Luddite

Veteran Member
We're moving away from terms like castle doctrine and Curtilage. Into truth and reconciliation land.
Best to be on the side that convenes the commissions. Jmh unedumacated opinion.
 

shane

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Yes, know and refresh yourself on your local and state laws and run through
in your mind as many potential scenarios, with proper response, as you can
imagine. Time comes and you'll need rails greased to more automatically do
what needs doing without any OODA loop stress second-guessing delaying.

Then, after action...

Either SSS, or if not possible then have something like www.uslawshield.com
legal insurance in your back pocket to call first before making any statements.

Panic Early, Beat the Rush!
- Shane
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
When they cross onto MY PROPERTY directly threatening me and mine.....that's when the fecal material hits the fan, OR, anytime I receive unmistakable direct threats to my family or property. Bullets hitting or coming near my home and family. If I see someone approaching my home with a Molotov Cocktail in their hands, then it's totally game on. No mercy - no quarter!

After which I will set up graphic warnings which everyone will understand no matter how stupid they might be.

EXAMPLE:
350px-Smirtouille_Heads_on_Spikes.png
 

Milkweed Host

Veteran Member
Remember that if you do shoot someone, kill and wound them, the police will first try
and put together a criminal case. After the scene is secure, that is the officer's main function.
So, choose you words wisely when talking to the police.
 

NoMoreLibs

Kill Commie's, Every Single One Of Them!
Remember that if you do shoot someone, kill and wound them, the police will first try
and put together a criminal case. After the scene is secure, that is the officer's main function.
So, choose you words wisely when talking to the police.

Yeah, you're dead, probably in jail. If I have to take someone out....ain't no 911 gonna be called. You've been around; S. S. S.
 
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