ECON End The Shutdown!

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
Another corner heard from.

And this one's got some points about the Constitutionality of this whole affair.

Fair use cited so on and so forth.


End The Shutdown!

Via The Editors of The Mises Institute,

The shutdown of the American economy by government decree should end. The lasting and far-reaching harms caused by this authoritarian precedent far outweigh those caused by the COVID-19 virus. The American people - individuals, families, businesses - must decide for themselves how and when to reopen society and return to their daily lives.



Neither the Trump administration nor Congress has the legal authority to shut down American life absent at least baseline due process. As Judge Andrew Napolitano recently wrote, business closures, restrictions on assembly and movement, and quarantines are not constitutionally permissible under some magic “emergency” doctrine. At a minimum, the federal government must show potential imminent harm by specific infected individuals at some form of hearing or trial.




These due process requirements are not suspended.

State and local officials may claim, or even possess, lawful police powers to shut down their communities. We offer no analysis of such powers or claims under the myriad of state constitutions and authorizing legislation. But they should resist exercising these powers. The governor of Virginia, in particular, deserves admonition for unilaterally imposing a lengthy period of virtual house arrest.

We do not know, and cannot yet know, how many Americans will become sick or die from the virus. We do know that predictions regarding infection and death rates are highly unreliable. Even actual deaths attributable to COVID-19 are not so easy to count, as Italy has discovered. Age, general health, and comorbidity are difficult variables to assess, and people may die “with” the virus but not “from” it. It is also very difficult to assess the lethality of the virus relative to previously known types of flu and colds.

To date, COVID-19 deaths in the US are far fewer than deaths in ordinary flu seasons or from past pandemics such as the H1N1 virus. This understanding is critically important to put the virus, and the government response to it, in perspective. Even during past pandemics, depressions, and world wars, Americans went to work.

In 1850, French economist Frédéric Bastiat helped the world understand the “seen and unseen costs” of state policies. It is simple to see how quarantines and lockdowns will slow the spread of COVID-19. It is critical, but not so simple, to see the costs and harms caused by the economic shutdown.

Only then can we rationally understand the tradeoffs involved.




How many Americans suffering from other illnesses cannot see a doctor now? How many Americans will lose their jobs, their life savings, their retirement prospects, and their incalculable feeling of self-worth? How many will succumb to depression, drug or alcohol abuse, and suicide? How many will lose their homes, divorce their spouses, or suffer abuse? How many will never recover in their careers? How many small businesses, including the vital ones of doctors, dentists, and veterinarians, will vanish from your community? How many young people will “fail to launch”?

Worse still, will grocery stores and gas stations remain open and stocked? Will crime spike? Will the American social fabric, already thin from politics, tear apart?


These questions are not rhetorical. All of these things happened, to a degree, following the Great Recession of 2008. They will happen again—very soon—if we fail to act immediately. Tomorrow, on April 1, millions of Americans will not pay rent or mortgages. Millions of small businesses will shutter, just as many large employers such as Macy’s, Kohl’s, airlines, and hotels already have. Millions of service workers are unemployed already, but many more jobs will be lost. The effects will cascade.



There is no conflict between humanitarian and economic concerns; in fact they are flipsides of the same coin. A poorer America will be a much less healthy America, one more vulnerable to future illness and disease. Technology, modern medicine, and market actors can address a virus; already we see entrepreneurs producing cheaper ventilators and doctors using cheap generic drugs with very promising results.

This local, bottom-up approach is the only effective way to confront the virus. The federal government, as we see now and have in the past, is comically incapable of competence in times of crisis.

On a fundamental level, freedom really is more important than security—or, in this case, an illusion of security. We all demonstrate this in our personal lives every day, from flying to driving to riding bicycles, to consuming unhealthy food and drink simply because we like it. Security has never been the sole or even primary goal for a country born in rebellion.

Government cannot decide what aspects of our lives are essential or nonessential. The American people cannot simply sit at home and wait for government checks written on funds that government does not have.

End the shutdown.
 

Ractivist

Pride comes before the fall.....Pride month ended.
We will know the vaidity of this in the next two weeks......or so. THen again, the powers that be will make it clear, they saved lives by doing this, lots of lives.....too bad for the livlihoods.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
NEVER LET A CRISIS GO TO WASTE …...

That's POLITICS, not economics, in case you failed to notice. And if YOUR PRESIDENT wants a shutdown, are you going to deny it to him? What kind of American are you anyway???
 

Troke

On TB every waking moment
NEVER LET A CRISIS GO TO WASTE …...

That's POLITICS, not economics, in case you failed to notice. And if YOUR PRESIDENT wants a shutdown, are you going to deny it to him? What kind of American are you anyway???
You think your Constitutional Rights are being violated so you will pay no attention to sequestration etc.

Works for me. One thing though, you need medical treatment, your estate is forfeit. There is no free lunch.
 

celtic-cat

Senior Member
NEVER LET A CRISIS GO TO WASTE …...

That's POLITICS, not economics, in case you failed to notice. And if YOUR PRESIDENT wants a shutdown, are you going to deny it to him? What kind of American are you anyway???
Hey, DD, don't try to squash them. It's a perfect template for assembling an ignore list. :jstr:
 

hunybee

Veteran Member
ok, i'm not arguing the point here. i am not. so lets make sure that is clear.

i will say that the president and the federal gov did NOT mandate a shut down. he has left it to the state and local govs to do it. he has repeatedly stated that what the white house has put out are guidelines. they have put out guidelines for the states, but it is up to the states themselves to do what they will.

he has however implied that if they don't, he might.

just making that distinction.


i have not really agreed all the way to one way of thinking or the other. i am simply sitting here watching it all happen, making mental notes and revisions to my plans, and trying to deal with it as it does as i have no control over anything other than what i actually do have control over.
 

Meemur

Voice on the Prairie / FJB!
i have not really agreed all the way to one way of thinking or the other. i am simply sitting here watching it all happen, making mental notes and revisions to my plans, and trying to deal with it as it does as i have no control over anything other than what i actually do have control over.

Well stated! I've done enough of my own research to convince me that the dangers of this virus are real, so I'm taking it seriously. However, I'm also aware that there are those who will take advantage of the subsequent economic breakdown for prolonged shutdowns.

I'm just trying to remain alert and dark gray in the real world.
 

ioujc

MARANTHA!! Even so, come LORD JESUS!!!
UH>>>>government has the right to give precedence to Public Health issues over most anything. Thus people are not allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. This would, in your estimation, preempt freedom of speech, but it doesn't; it just uses the reality of personal responsibility and common sense, but then, there is NONE of that left in the current world to begin with. So, yeah go ahead and go back to work>>>YOU first!
 

BassMan

Veteran Member
Unconstitutional? Like “separation of church and state”, when the constitution only limits government interference in church matters?

These days, with emergency powers, executive orders and PDDs, it is pretty much whatever the gov says it is.

I am still in the “shutdown camp” for health reasons, but the economic and social toll will be terrible. Lesser of two evils to me, but I do see your point.
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
So far we have no known cases in our county. No known cases does not mean no cases however. We are all in the endangered population for various reasons and we are on self imposed isolation to the degree possible/tolerable/whatever.

There are cases one county away in NC and just over the state line in VA, a few miles away. Yes, the threat is real and it is lethal for some.

But it is not Black Death V.2.0. This manufactured fear is not realistic or reasonable or logical. But it is there and it is being used. By whom, and for what purpose?

The economic issues are the real problem, the virus is just a convenient crisis that is not going to waste. And the political overtones are what I find truly frightening.
 

billet

Veteran Member
But it is not Black Death V.2.0. This manufactured fear is not realistic or reasonable or logical. But it is there and it is being used. By whom, and for what purpose?

The economic issues are the real problem, the virus is just a convenient crisis that is not going to waste. And the political overtones are what I find truly frightening.
Spot on. Yes, it's bad, but not nearly as bad or dangerous as it's being pumped up to be. This is the "Black Swan" event being used as a cover for the economic collapse.
We've kicked the can down the road for so long, and now we've run out of road.
It's gonna get ugly folks.
 

naturallysweet

Has No Life - Lives on TB
The entire planet is being shut down. Not just your town, state, or country. Failing to realize that makes these little rants look moronic. Either the Communist Chinese virus is much more serious than they are telling the stupid public. Or something much bigger is out there. Either way, let's stop pretending it's just a cold and we should get back to work tomorrow
 

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
What we are supposed to believe -

2jLtPeY.png


-- View: https://i.imgur.com/2jLtPeY.png
 

Meemur

Voice on the Prairie / FJB!
It's a hard call. I'm glad that I'm not our governor (Kim Reynolds of Iowa). She has been holding out so far against issuing a state-wide shelter in place order and has allowed many businesses to remain open, but there is a lot of pressure on her to issue tougher restrictions. I think her compromise will be to issue them for the virus hot spots rather than statewide.

All eyes are on NYC, I think. If they have a number of deaths over the next two weeks, I think move governors and probably the president will issue stricter orders.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
The entire planet is being shut down. Not just your town, state, or country. Failing to realize that makes these little rants look moronic. Either the Communist Chinese virus is much more serious than they are telling the stupid public. Or something much bigger is out there. Either way, let's stop pretending it's just a cold and we should get back to work tomorrow

That's part of the problem, though. For 80 percent of people, it IS "just a cold." It's flu-like. YES I KNOW IT IS NOT THE FLU.

Have to say that all-caps part or people won't pay attention to anything else. Most people who get this will barely know they had it. The problem is that it's really, really transmissible, and it's very easy to get this into someone for whom it will be a serious thing.
 

Practical

Veteran Member
I've been to work everyday, critical infrastructure. Well, deemed critical infrastructure. Should I stop going? Should all of us tradesmen and techs stop working? Stay home? Wait it out? Power and water guys? Should they stay home? Cops? Nurses? Docs? How about truck drivers? Should they stop? If this is actually death incarnate, why are we still going to work? Why are we allowed to? Travel pass and all that.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
UH>>>>government has the right to give precedence to Public Health issues over most anything. Thus people are not allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater. This would, in your estimation, preempt freedom of speech, but it doesn't; it just uses the reality of personal responsibility and common sense, but then, there is NONE of that left in the current world to begin with. So, yeah go ahead and go back to work>>>YOU first!

there are a crap ton of us that have yet to stop work because we are deemed essential. Apparently the comfort of the minority is much more important than the reality for the majority.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
I've been to work everyday, critical infrastructure. Well, deemed critical infrastructure. Should I stop going? Should all of us tradesmen and techs stop working? Stay home? Wait it out? Power and water guys? Should they stay home? Cops? Nurses? Docs? How about truck drivers? Should they stop? If this is actually death incarnate, why are we still going to work? Why are we allowed to? Travel pass and all that.
Because the FEELZZZZ are more important than common sense these days.
 

ioujc

MARANTHA!! Even so, come LORD JESUS!!!
Actually Kathy, I AM still working so up yours too!! You don't know SQUAT about me, so ST*U!!
AND I am 67 & 1/2 years old to boot!!!
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
We're on a hiding to nothing, shutdown = economic depression, no shutdown = mass death.

Maybe they'll be a combination of the two.
 

ioujc

MARANTHA!! Even so, come LORD JESUS!!!
In FACT, I have just come off of a 14 day mandatory quarantine because I have been exposed TWICE>>>>so, like I said YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME or MY SITUATION!!
 
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Reactions: bev

Raggedyman

Res ipsa loquitur
You think your Constitutional Rights are being violated so you will pay no attention to sequestration etc.

Works for me. One thing though, you need medical treatment, your estate is forfeit. There is no free lunch.

unless you're of the political class or one of the protected subsets of 'murKKa -

an den eva ting bees fa fa-ree
 

BassMan

Veteran Member
I've been to work everyday, critical infrastructure. Well, deemed critical infrastructure. Should I stop going? Should all of us tradesmen and techs stop working? Stay home? Wait it out? Power and water guys? Should they stay home? Cops? Nurses? Docs? How about truck drivers? Should they stop? If this is actually death incarnate, why are we still going to work? Why are we allowed to? Travel pass and all that.

Ouch. While I telework, 2 of my loved ones are nurses.

What do you think might be a good solution?
 

ioujc

MARANTHA!! Even so, come LORD JESUS!!!
Spot on. Yes, it's bad, but not nearly as bad or dangerous as it's being pumped up to be. This is the "Black Swan" event being used as a cover for the economic collapse.
We've kicked the can down the road for so long, and now we've run out of road.
It's gonna get ugly folks.

REALLY??
Do you NOT GET IT yet??

It has ALREADY killed MORE than THREE TIMES the number the flu kills in a YEAR!! And it has done it in a month, two at the most!! And the next two weeks will be probably doubling that>>>yeah, go on back to work. That way people will be dropping dead all around you>>>but hey, "it's the economy stupid!"

Yes, it is going to take down the economy, you bet it is. But is that more important than the lives of people?? I guess you think so>>>thus my rhetorical statement about "You first," but apparently many of you didn't understand that either. Some people just wander around without a brain!

IF people have a brain, they will re-elect TRUMP, but nope gonna be all kinds a folks offerin' all kinds a free stuff>>>and that will win. Because the young and the stupid always want free stuff.
 

CaryC

Has No Life - Lives on TB
End the shutdown and millions of all age groups will die. Die quickly and needlessly.

Not arguing any point, just a decently informed opinion.

But that's all right. [/sarc

Never even considering history. They are here alive because their ancestors.....

Survived the crash in 1871, where ever they lived, but right in the middle of Reconstruction in the south, just so JP Morgan could buy southern railroads, on the cheap.
Survived the 1929 Crash
Survived the 1932 Crash which was worse
Survived WWII on the home front (women and children) with ration cards
Survived the economic mess of the '70's with Carter and Nixon, mortages at 20+%, inflation at 20+%
Survived the pay freeze of Nixon/Carter, and the freeze on goods and services. Don't even think about what happened when the freeze was taken off.
Survived the crash 2018

To produce a global powerhouse of an economy.

But no we're all going to die, not from Covid-19, but an economic crash. Which as preppers should have been preparing for since Y2K.

Because if their ancestors had not of survived all that, they wouldn't be here now.
 

Raggedyman

Res ipsa loquitur
CDC data as of 3.21.20 . . . Weekly U.S. Influenza Surveillance Report (FluView)
summarizing:


All data are preliminary and may change as more reports are received.


A description of the CDC influenza surveillance system, including methodology and detailed descriptions of each data component is available on the surveillance methods page.


Additional information on the current and previous influenza seasons for each surveillance component are available on FluView Interactive.



Key Points
  • Nationally, the percent of laboratory specimens testing positive for influenza at clinical laboratories continued to decrease while ILI activity continued to increase. More people are seeking care for respiratory illness due to the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic.
  • Nationally, influenza A(H1N1)pdm09 viruses are the most commonly reported influenza viruses this season. Previously, influenza B/Victoria viruses predominated nationally.
  • Laboratory confirmed influenza-associated hospitalization rates for the U.S. population overall are higher than most recent seasons and rates for children 0-4 years and adults 18-49 years are the highest CDC has on record for these age groups, surpassing rates reported during the 2009 H1N1 pandemic. Hospitalization rates for school-aged children (5-17 years) are higher than any recent regular season but remain lower than rates experienced by this age group during the pandemic.
  • Pneumonia and influenza mortality levels have been low, but 155 influenza-associated deaths in children have been reported so far this season. This number is higher than recorded at the same time in every season since reporting began in 2004-05, except for the 2009 pandemic.
  • CDC estimates that so far this season there have been at least 39 million flu illnesses, 400,000 hospitalizations and 24,000 deaths from flu.
  • Antiviral medications are an important adjunct to flu vaccine in the control of influenza. Almost all (>99%) of the influenza viruses tested this season are susceptible to the four FDA-approved influenza antiviral medications recommended for use in the U.S. this season.

NO WHERE NEAR COVID
CDC DATA
TURN OF THE TEE VEE
 

Ragnarok

On and On, South of Heaven
Trump warned of a very hard two weeks coming. Lots of deaths will be seen. We'll see about the validity of this article, then, IMHO
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
Our little town in North Texas just popped positive for 14 cases. I get it I'll likely die from it so I'm a little selfish in this regard.

And if I get it I have a higher chance of dying s well, but I'd never want that to mean I was so selfish that I wanted to take everyone down with me. I believe in accountability come Judgment Day if not before.
 
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