GUNS/RLTD Army Adopts Sig Sauer Sidearm/Sig P320 ( original post date 1-20-2017 )

M

Medical Maven

Deceased
Army Adopts Sig Sauer Sidearm
Sauer P320
Army Adopts Sig Sauer Sidearm
BY: Stephen Gutowski
January 20, 2017 6:19 pm

The U.S. Army announced on Thursday that it would adopt a new sidearm manufactured by Sig Sauer.

The Army awarded Sig Sauer the contract for a brand new Modular Handgun System worth up to $580 million over 10 years. That sum will equip the military branch with the P320 beginning this year once operational testing is complete. It will replace the standard issue Beretta M9 that the Army currently employs.

The guns are designed to accommodate a number of different configurations. The gun, which has already been successful in the civilian market, will come in both a full-size and compact variant. It will be able to accept both standard and extended magazines and silencers. The civilian version of the gun is sold in 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP, but the Army has not announced what caliber it will use.

The head of the Army’s acquisition unit praised the modular P320 as a unique advancement in firearms technology.

“I am tremendously proud of the Modular Handgun System team,” Army Acquisition Executive Steffanie Easter said in a statement. “By maximizing full and open competition across our industry partners, we have optimized private sector advancements in handguns, ammunition, and magazines, and the end result will ensure a decidedly superior weapon system for our Warfighters.”

“As MHS moves forward into operational testing, the due diligence taken by all of the stakeholders will ensure a program that remains on-budget and on-schedule,” Easter added.

Sig Sauer CEO Ron Cohen said the company is proud to have won the contract and credited his employees with the success.

“We are both humbled and proud that the P320 was selected by the U.S. Army as its weapon of choice,” he said. “Securing this contract is a testimony to Sig Sauer employees and their commitment to innovation, quality, and manufacturing the most reliable firearms in the world.”

The Army’s announcement comes on the heels of the Marine Corps adopting Magpul’s PMag as its standard magazine going forward while the military reequips to face the threats presented around the world.
 
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H

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
About as modular as you're going to reasonably get with a pistol.....

IMG_9713_1A-e1464790561206.jpg

https://bearingarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/IMG_9713_1A-e1464790561206.jpg

P320-sigevolution-3guns.jpg

http://www.osagecountyguns.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/P320-sigevolution-3guns.jpg
 
DryCreek

DryCreek

Veteran Member
Interesting thought - what about those intrusive states that verge on "full-blown retard" gun control and request a spent casing from the firearm purchased by one of its "subjects". With the modular Sig, only the "action housing" is serialized - basically just the trigger group and slide detent. You can order a host of barrels with the Sig Modular System. Will those nazi-like states require a casing from each barrel? The chamber will be different with each barrel, as will the "signature" left on each expended casing.

As a side note, bought two new pistols last month (no waiting, no permits, God Bless Texas) and neither of them came with the expended casing. Has something changed that I'm not aware of?
 
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blueinterceptor

Veteran Member
If they are using the same 124 gr fmj round, what's the difference? What's the point of modular? The soldiers will have one size and specialty units another
 
Monty

Monty

Veteran Member
I bought a P320 9mm, shot it side by side with my Glock 19, the Glock felt better and I shot it better. Sold the Sig with no regrets. It isn't a bad pistol, I just don't think it is anything all that special. It should do the job fine I suppose.
 
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Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Ragnarok said:
So overpriced it is ridiculous...
Click to expand...

Yeah, the SiG 2022 runs under 500, as does the CZ 10 for starters....The procurement guys wanted it all with the "Modular Pistol", that's what it costs....The necessity for all that for general issue is real hard to justify, for the SF units, aviators and CID I can see arguments for either the full kit or something other than the full service sized weapon.
 
P

Publius

TB Fanatic
Something tells me they did not even take it to the proving grounds. I guess the battle field proven 1911 is not good enough.

I see nothing modular about it and get rid of the protrusion on the underside for holding flashlights or laser pointers them things get people in trouble! Just fire back where the light is coming from and you got them.
 
H

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Publius said:
Something tells me they did not even take it to the proving grounds. I guess the battle field proven 1911 is not good enough.

I see nothing modular about it and get rid of the protrusion on the underside for holding flashlights or laser pointers them things get people in trouble! Just fire back where the light is coming from and you got them.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised of some future legal action in the offing by others involved in the "trials"....
 
Ragnarok

Ragnarok

On and On, South of Heaven
Housecarl said:
Yeah, the SiG 2022 runs under 500, as does the CZ 10 for starters....The procurement guys wanted it all with the "Modular Pistol", that's what it costs....The necessity for all that for general issue is real hard to justify, for the SF units, aviators and CID I can see arguments for either the full kit or something other than the full service sized weapon.
Click to expand...

I use a Springfield XD-9 w/ 4" barrel and shoot darn near perfect every requal and have yet to have a misfire.

XD ran me $400.00 out the door after rebates. It is a GREAT pistol ( but I do want to try an IWI Jericho 941 stainless steel )
 
R

Roscoe's Daddy

Veteran Member
I've heard it's a relatively good service pistol with an unusually fragile magazine. Like any Sig, pricey. Why they just didn't go the S&W M&P route remains a mystery, although perhaps Sig is better at greasing the skids better.
 
Monty

Monty

Veteran Member
Publius said:
Something tells me they did not even take it to the proving grounds. I guess the battle field proven 1911 is not good enough.

I see nothing modular about it and get rid of the protrusion on the underside for holding flashlights or laser pointers them things get people in trouble! Just fire back where the light is coming from and you got them.
Click to expand...

1911 = expensive, mechanically complicated, maintenance intensive, heavy and low capacity. There are soooo many better choices.

And I like having a light on my pistol, not properly identifying your target "get people in trouble".
 
O

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
blueinterceptor said:
If they are using the same 124 gr fmj round, what's the difference? What's the point of modular? The soldiers will have one size and specialty units another
Click to expand...

Every AG since Bush 41 has ruled that since the US never ratified the Hague Convention, we can use modern technologies, beginning with the hollow point. Therefore, pissing contests in caliber are pretty much moot... When 9mm pistol ammo can penetrate Class IIIa and IV armor at close range, and a .45acp cannot, all the while expanding 2X, the argument is essentially over... Capacity, accuracy, and terminal ballistics trump big, slow, and non-performing to the same standards of modern 9mm ammo. Period.

I will take the plunge, and say that with President Trump, and SecDef Mattis, at the helm, things are gonna change... I hope that the days of our people in combat using FMJ, will soon be over... For a long time, hollow points have been used in combat... If not by all, then it's a political, not legal decision, and those holding to that insanity, need to be cashiered...

As some trainers have so pointedly said, "a pistol is a piss-poor choice for defense, when a rifle or shotgun is handy..." Clint Smith, of Thunder Ranch says, "a pistol is what you use, to get to the rifle or shotgun you shouldn't have put down, in the first place..."

A pistol is what you use as a last resort, or when you don't have a rifle or pistol handy.

All this means is simply this- placement, placement, placement. Without it, you're SOL, or damned lucky- not something you should ever count on...

The P320 just received recognition by the Guinness Book of Records:

https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/max-michel-sets-steel-challenge-world-record-sig-sauer-p320/

http://videos.recoilweb.com/channel/recent?video=MePWmWCDAqtr-tts01e08-guinness-world-record

Watch that video, Ladies and Gents... Impressive, to say the least... On the first two runs, he hit all six targets, but each time, the right most target, though hit, did not go down... Only when all three targets went down, did it count...

I'd like to see what that young man could do in a SEAL funhouse, with people sitting in the chairs, acting the part of hostages... Now THAT would be even more impressive...

As Army and other services may go half a million pistols total, I'd be surprised if everybody didn't go the same route, eventually... If Glock hasn't gotten rid of it's FBI issue models, I'd expect there to be a "reevaluation" of the process... Sigs work... Our men and women will be well served by them...

GBY&Y's

Maranatha

OldARcher
 
ArisenCarcass

ArisenCarcass

Veteran Member
I am a recent convert to the Glock nation, and am disappointed.
After shooting litterally every handgun mentioned in this thread so far, and many others, I decided to sell everthing, except my Glocks...all in 9mm flavors.

65% of police use Glocks. SOCOM has been using their discretionary funding to buy Glocks, out of every handgun available. Glocks just work.

Hopefully Mattis rescinds this crap......after taking care of the f35.
 
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blueinterceptor

Veteran Member
I am not disputing Sig's reliability. But if the cartridge was going to be another 9mm, the beretta would have continued to serve them well. I don't think there will be a switch away from 9mm because of NATO. So if the switch is to another 9mm even hollow point, the beretta would have delivered that round just as effectively. The only advantages the Sig have are that it is new and not completely worn out after 30 years of service.
I will bet dollars to donuts that after awhile the short comings of any weapons system will be found out by the constant use and misuse and lack of maintenance found in our military. (As well as everyone else's too)
 
twincougars

twincougars

Deceased
This is bullshit. What happened to Trump's promise to buy American? Create jobs HERE. I hope he puts the kibosh on this.
 
hiwall

hiwall

Has No Life - Lives on TB
blueinterceptor said:
I am not disputing Sig's reliability. But if the cartridge was going to be another 9mm, the beretta would have continued to serve them well. I don't think there will be a switch away from 9mm because of NATO. So if the switch is to another 9mm even hollow point, the beretta would have delivered that round just as effectively. The only advantages the Sig have are that it is new and not completely worn out after 30 years of service.
I will bet dollars to donuts that after awhile the short comings of any weapons system will be found out by the constant use and misuse and lack of maintenance found in our military. (As well as everyone else's too)
Click to expand...

This^^^^
Like I said above this whole deal was a huge waste of taxpayer dollars. Someone lined their own pockets with money and that is why the switch. Zero other reason.
 
O

OldArcher

Has No Life - Lives on TB
twincougars said:
This is bullshit. What happened to Trump's promise to buy American? Create jobs HERE. I hope he puts the kibosh on this.
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Exeter, New Hampshire is where Sigs- pistols and rifles, are now made... Home, too, of Sig Academy. Supplying weapons to Americans and peoples around the world, military and civilian, for years... You won't find a more Patriotic group of people...

Glocks are made in Smyrna, Ga. Likewise, Berrettas were made in MD, now in, I think, TN...

Where actual manufacturing plants are located isn't secret, but sometimes, not heralded in the press. This was especially true after 09/11/2001. For a time, even tours were forbidden, as part of the security process...

So, twincougers, Sig Sauer is "American," staffed by Americans, serving America, and the free world...

GBY&Y's

Maranatha

OldARcher
 
Garand

Garand

Veteran Member
I own a P320 Compact in 9mm. Like it so much I sold my Glocks (and I am a Glock fan).

People need to actually shoot a P320 before making decisions....open your mind a little.
That being said, if Glock comes out with a G19 Gen 5 with no finger grooves I will buy one.
 
A

Adino

paradigm shaper
The Berretta is harder for the armorers to work on than the Sig will be. Its not an easy gun to disassemble/assemble.

There will be significant time saved in the armory, that saved time will bring some offsetting savings.
 
NoName

NoName

Veteran Member
DryCreek said:
As a side note, bought two new pistols last month (no waiting, no permits, God Bless Texas) and neither of them came with the expended casing. Has something changed that I'm not aware of?
Click to expand...

Have wondered the same thing..last three purchases, no casing.
 
Mongo

Mongo

Veteran Member
Well, the (special) military men who can carry whatever handgun they want carry Glocks.
This is a typical .mil accquisition
 
DryCreek

DryCreek

Veteran Member
night driver said:
Perhaps they get filed rather than sent to purchaser???
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If that was in response to my wondering why no spent casing was included with recent purchases, I'm not sure how that helps - filing one away. The requirement is that the FFL responsible for the transfer (4473) will forward that the the local or state agency responsible for building the database with markings and characteristics for that particular caliber. The idea was that they could build a "casing fingerprint" database that would accelerate crime scene processing and lead to "quicker apprehensions". I think that some NRA backed research has proven that those databases have never resulted in single positive lead, but I could be wrong. I'm thinking that many of those drive-by shootings and holdups where shots were fired have stolen or otherwise illegally procured firearms in use and the database info is moot at that point.
 
Wise Owl

Wise Owl

Deceased
Dh has a P320 and likes it a lot. He also has his Springfield 1911 which he also likes but he got the Sig cause it's lighter and smaller to carry. I even like it.
It's a lot less to take apart and cleaned and dh has it down to about half the time the 1911 takes.

I think it's a good choice. But, who am I when all you other folk diss it when you haven't even held it or shot it? Hmmm?
 
DryCreek

DryCreek

Veteran Member
Aha! Found the answer. Apparently it was all started in Maryland - the bright idea to build a database with the spent casings from new firearms sold in the state. Five million dollars later and the program was scrapped without having provided a single tangible result. Gotta love Liberal bureaucrats.

Source: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-bullet-casings-20151107-story.html

Quotes from the above linked story:
"Millions of dollars later, Maryland has officially decided that its 15-year effort to store and catalog the "fingerprints" of thousands of handguns was a failure.

Since 2000, the state required that gun manufacturers fire every handgun to be sold here and send the spent bullet casing to authorities. The idea was to build a database of "ballistic fingerprints" to help solve future crimes.

But the system — plagued by technological problems — never solved a single case. Now the hundreds of thousands of accumulated casings could be sold for scrap."

"New York followed Maryland's lead and created a similar database, but that state pulled funding for the project in 2012 when it, too, had no success."

There are also some interesting comments following the entire article.
 
canis-major

canis-major

Who?
I think it needs to be stated that these so called "special units" can't just shoot whatever they want. They do have the ability to select something outside of big-service equipment, by showing how standard issue gear doesn't meet whatever requirement that unit says they have, but this selection must go through the typical procurement process like every other military group.
What is telling is how nearly every SOF component we have has had Glock for quite some time, arguably our best shooters, yet the big service is going Sig. Hmmmmmmmm
 
D

Dozdoats

On TB every waking moment
A simple question - in the 'big' military (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard), how many service people actually carry handguns on a daily basis?
 
H

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
blueinterceptor said:
I am not disputing Sig's reliability. But if the cartridge was going to be another 9mm, the beretta would have continued to serve them well. I don't think there will be a switch away from 9mm because of NATO. So if the switch is to another 9mm even hollow point, the beretta would have delivered that round just as effectively. The only advantages the Sig have are that it is new and not completely worn out after 30 years of service.
I will bet dollars to donuts that after awhile the short comings of any weapons system will be found out by the constant use and misuse and lack of maintenance found in our military. (As well as everyone else's too)
Click to expand...

With regards to the 9X19 mm vs "peer" OPFOR....here's examples of modern AP vs service grade armor...

VBR-Belgium 9mm Armor Piercing bullets 2
VBR792
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKMz3tYx-M
Uploaded on Mar 6, 2008
The VBR-Belgium armor piercing projectile technology can be used in different calibers like the7.92x24 mm, the 9x19 mm, the .357 SIG, the .40 S&W, the .45 Auto and a lot of others calibers. This Belgian patented technology with his applications in the 9x19 mm NATO caliber ask serious questions if the 9x19 mm NATO caliber must be replaced by one of the tine PDW calibers?
Click to expand...

--

Can 9mm defeat IIIA body armor?
Military Arms Channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aaU4WwV07s
Published on Jan 9, 2015
I came across some old speciality ammo made by American Ballistics Company. Five rounds of their 9mm armor piercing ammunition came into Copper Custom with a trade so I decided to see if it could defeat threat level IIIA body armor.

Armor by: http://www.thetargetman.com/
MAC on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/militaryarms/
MAC on Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/militaryarms/
Copper Custom:
Click to expand...

ETA:
Why My Beretta M9s and 92s Work But Military Issued Ones Don't
Mr Guns N Gear
https://www.full30.com/video/667a8091b5213b915c53cc9d5defdfeb
Description

I go into detail on why many folks, myself included, have heard that the M9 is an unreliable gun but also why I say Beretta 92 series guns are very reliable. Odd dichotomy right? Let's get into it!

MecGar Beretta magazines: http://shrsl.com/?~bnsw

http://www.minutemanmunitions.com

http://www.freedommunitions.com

http://www.circle10ak.com

http://rguns.net

Mrgunsngear Amazon Store:

http://astore.amazon.com/wwwmrgunsngea-20

http://www.1791apparel.com/collectio...ts/mrgunsngear

www.Mrgunsngear.com

www.facebook.com/mrgunsngear

www.twitter.com/mrgunsngear

Music by Youtube Creators & Machinima Sound

Category: Firearm Reviews ċ Uploaded: 03/07/2016
Click to expand...
 
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Doomer Doug

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
Military procurement is a corrupt, dismal, political process that has led to multiple failures. The failures go back decades to include the World War Two tank that had gasoline engines, or the original M-14 Garland SA Rifle triggered in the 25odd6 round, or the F-35, or the Navy Destroyer that breaks down once it gets 500 feet away from the dock, well you get the idea.

Issuing a military sidearm, the day before Trump is sworn in, after a 10 year process, tells me something is going on beneath the waves, Housecarl. "They" could have waited till Mattis was sworn in, or Trump was sworn in, or whatever. Nope, the Army didn't do that. I wonder why they "HAD TO" issue the sidearm contract exactly at that time.

Anybody have any thoughts on this, or am I just thinking some newly retired Army General just got a briefcase full of 100 dollar bills?
 
Doomer Doug

Doomer Doug

TB Fanatic
Raw Meat

You should realize Housecarl that the 9mm versus the 45 ACP ammo argument here at timebomb is like waving raw meat in front of a starving wolf pack! :lkick:
 
H

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Doomer Doug said:
You should realize Housecarl that the 9mm versus the 45 ACP ammo argument here at timebomb is like waving raw meat in front of a starving wolf pack! :lkick:
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Yup....

.45 Auto / ACP Armor Piercing 1911 VBR-Belgium English
VBR792
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3K1VgJpiNE
Uploaded on Jun 28, 2008
The .45 Auto / ACP Armor Piercing cartridges made by VBR-Belgium have more advantages the the PDW small caliber cartridges especialy concerning stopping power.
Click to expand...

ETA: Once we're not talking about FMJ/Ball, things get "interesting" and stuff "punches" above their weight classes....
 
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