BertaBurtonLake
Inactive
Yer dang skippy, the less assured we become. Their outright lies are coming home to roost.
EBOLA 2nd Confirmed Ebola Case In US (Dallas #2) CDC Confirms 10/12
- Thread starter workerbee
- Start date
Yer dang skippy, the less assured we become. Their outright lies are coming home to roost.
If Duncan's family is indeed asymptomatic, and if nobody in the health care system was infected at the time of Duncan's first visit on Sept. 25th, the fact that we have an infected HCW who treated Duncan in his terminal stages suggests that this disease is actually not all that contagious until symptoms are advanced. This would be good news for the public and very bad news for HCWs.
helen
Panic Sex Lady
If this is true, it may trigger Ebola quarantine tents. People will stop seeking treatment out of fear. Then we get more infections.
Panic Sex Lady regrets learning how to read ...
Melodi
Disaster Cat
My hope is (and I know husband feels this way too) that either there was an accident or more likely the CDC was trying to squeak by with level 2 protocols for a level 4 virus simply because they knew that having level 4 protocols for every ER worker or even every Ebola care-giver once you get beyond a certain number of patients is unrealistic to impossible. It also means that ANY confirmed patient really DOES need to be treated ONLY by people in the full hazmat gear and that anyone treating them before infection is certified (like ER workers) will have to be home monitored at the very least, creating more staff shortages.
Given the few beds and hospitals set up for this sort of thing, they may have thought it "would be fine" just to "cheat" a little; we have the word of the nurses this was done in Spain and I don't trust the US to be any saner in the face of "economic reality on the ground" and the fact that at the moment, there wouldn't even be enough equipment to put every ER worker in this equipment even if it were not so hot, heavy and horrible to wear for very long (people would likely collapse if they had to work full shifts in it for more than a day or two).
Now the CDC is confronting the reality that this time "cheating a bit" isn't going to "blown off" to a slightly lower level as they may have hoped; it simply allows a false sense of security (and maybe better than nothing but certainly isn't full protection).
Given the few beds and hospitals set up for this sort of thing, they may have thought it "would be fine" just to "cheat" a little; we have the word of the nurses this was done in Spain and I don't trust the US to be any saner in the face of "economic reality on the ground" and the fact that at the moment, there wouldn't even be enough equipment to put every ER worker in this equipment even if it were not so hot, heavy and horrible to wear for very long (people would likely collapse if they had to work full shifts in it for more than a day or two).
Now the CDC is confronting the reality that this time "cheating a bit" isn't going to "blown off" to a slightly lower level as they may have hoped; it simply allows a false sense of security (and maybe better than nothing but certainly isn't full protection).
Natty Bumppo
Deceased
Just like in West Africa PPE is useless. Let's bring out a second U.S. Ebola case at 0500 on a Sunday. We then talk down to the people in the news conference, and tell them how this was expected.........then how we have it under control and we were prepared for this. Let us then blame the nurse because she did not exactly how we told her (b.s.).
No mention of Duncan's family. Continued lying on transmissibility. And on, and on, and on.
This is so contrived.
No mention of Duncan's family. Continued lying on transmissibility. And on, and on, and on.
This is so contrived.
NoPlugsNM
Deceased
ABSOLUTELY !!! Ebola, like all other hemorrhagic filoviruses ARE what you could call A HORSE OF A DIFFERENT COLOR. AIDS and Ebola don't belong in the same sentence, or maybe what I just said is the only time you should put them together.
NP
Lilbitsnana
On TB every waking moment
His family were around him until the 28th, so if they don't start having "initial" symptoms by Oct 19th and obvious symptoms by the end of October, then I will consider them in the clear. Not before that.
Possible Impact
TB Fanatic
NOPE! This (Still) implies TOTAL collapse of healthcare system.
All additional people will stay at home or be taken to camps
ETA: Clarify by adding (Still)
BertaBurtonLake
Inactive
I'm not sure how you can jump to that conclusion. There are a lot of "ifs' predicating your final assumption.
As the saying goes, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride".
workerbee
* Winter is Coming *
Cool.....Marc Siegel pisses me off......gonna watch it now.....
Sierra Leone has basically gone to hospice mode - the government there sees the country is too far gone. Coming soon to a continent near you!
Melodi
Disaster Cat
They are both viruses, they can both be transmitted by sex and blood exposure; having one (HIV) might make catching and transmitting the other (Ebola) a lot easier but so could a lot of other conditions. If you are an expert on epidemics, studying how the first one spread (especially in terms of mistakes made and false assumptions causing problems) is important for technical reasons.
Are they the same degree of threat to the average person these days (in the West) heck no, one takes many years to kill and in that sense is likely and older and "wiser" virus (wise viruses do not kill their hosts quickly as their destroy their own living space) and the other is relatively "new" (at least in people) but may be "learning" (aka mutating) from previous outbreaks when it killed so quickly that it would often "burn out." One of my concerns is that the CDC is so busy giving the "public line" that "nothing has changed;" that they may not be seeing changes that are whacking them across the face.
Viruses are not static, they change and mutate quickly..what was true six months ago may not be true now; but then HIV also gave many researchers nightmares because there was no written insurance from the Gods that it would not mutate and go airborne (or become easier to catch at least) in fact their still isn't. It is a lot less likely than Ebola doing so, but no one can say for certain that something "can only be caught" a certain way, just give high percentages or even "no known cases of transmission" via certain routes.
almost ready
Inactive
This is something I posted on the first report that Duncan had Ebola. Only certain facilities should treat Ebola patients, because of the special training in the suits, disrobing, and the copious amounts of waste that needs to be disposed of.
In West Africa, wherever cases were in the hospitals, the hospitals were forced to cancel other procedures because of fears of cross-contamination. Thus, they emptied out, and critical care for OB and cardiac, etc. cases was unavailable.
The cross-contamination issue is the big one. Ebola was spread, both in the 1976 and current cases, mainly by health care workers. That's why this epidemic erupted in three villages. The HCW who treated the index case carried it to the three village medical clinics and spread it before he knew that Ebola was an issue.
In the 1976 case, it was mainly spread by a med clinic run by nuns, all of whom died, but so did hundreds of villagers they treated for other things.
In Lagos, Nigeria, a nurse who treated Patrick Sawyer then spread the infection to her OB pregnant patients. She didn't touch Sawyer, but insisted that she must have caught it from touching a surface that he had touched, when she helped him eat.
Old Archer has it right. This is much more difficult than any other type of containment protocols we've had to deal with, and beyond anything we have studied or practiced.
SPEAKS VOLUMES>>>
Attachments
JohnGaltfla
#NeverTrump
Baloo
Veteran Member
We agree here, with one exception. CDC will never go back to LV4 protocol--its not possible for every HCW to have it if more than a few dozen cases pop up.
Hfcomms
EN66iq
I was given a couple of links to forward by a ER doctor who is a member on our board. The second one on infection control will be useful to the members. Take a look;
http://www.sciencemag.org/site/extra/ebola/
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Disinfection/index.php
http://www.sciencemag.org/site/extra/ebola/
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Disinfection/index.php
prepgirl44
Veteran Member
An assumption worth consideration, but we will have to wait and see.
The other side of that coin is that it could be infectious before symptoms are evident.
They say she only had contact with one person after becoming symptomatic, but what we really need to watch for is whether anyone else she had contact with BEFORE becoming symptomatic becomes infected.
I believe she was doing patient care until 2 days ago (think compromised health status), so that could be a large number of people with the potential to become infected if transmission can occur prior to becoming symptomatic. If any of those folks do turn positive, it is going to be very telling.
Either way, it's sure gonna be another long 21 days...sigh...
As a health care worker (thankfully not in the Dallas area), I am now watching this even more closely and strongly considering putting in motion an early retirement, depending on what happens in the next 21 days.
JohnGaltfla
#NeverTrump
.JPG)
My version of infection control. Don't cross my tanglefoot once this goes "Walking Dead" or I will shoot, burn, and bury the ashes.
steve graham
Veteran Member
Agreed. They were directly exposed while Duncan was very symptomatic........there is no way they escaped being infected.
almost ready
Inactive
The CDC guidelines for HCW's do not include proper Level IV protocols, nor are our ER's prepared for this. Once Duncan's family called the CDC and said he was ill and not in the hospital, (after he was sent home the first time from the hospital) they should have arranged his transport to one of the dozen or so empty beds that are properly equipped for this.
That he was shipped back by an ambulance driver who didn't know his condition, and taken to an ER is simply unfathomable.
That is the point of error.
That is where the fatal mistake was made. Perhaps the CDC doesn't have the ability to make such requests? No helicopter ambulances in Texas? I doubt it.
MaureenO
Another Infidel
I'd be VERY interested in learning what the bleed-through level of that tyvek was. I've never used less than an 8-hour bleed through. Even with that level, and an SCBA, if there is the tiniest break on the suit or the duct tape is not correct and air seeps into the suit you are in serious danger.
Maureen
helen
Panic Sex Lady
Total whack-jobs call government agencies every day. Whoever took the call may have had ten others like it before.
Medical Maven
Deceased
Posted at the PFI Forum. Pixie comments on the news conference. I follow with my comment.
Pixie wrote:
Quote:
{Shockingly unbelievable, even for me, that THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A LIST OF THOSE HCWs WHO WERE TREATING DUNCAN HANDY!!! Absolutely unbelievable…Such damnable hubris!}
MY COMMENT:
Well, I guess I gave them too much credit. Not only is this an unethical and highly dangerous experiment, it was not even properly conceived, (in a Dr. Mengele sort of way).
____________
Pixie wrote:
Quote:
{Shockingly unbelievable, even for me, that THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A LIST OF THOSE HCWs WHO WERE TREATING DUNCAN HANDY!!! Absolutely unbelievable…Such damnable hubris!}
MY COMMENT:
Well, I guess I gave them too much credit. Not only is this an unethical and highly dangerous experiment, it was not even properly conceived, (in a Dr. Mengele sort of way).
____________
Wise Owl
Deceased
Don't know if this is on the main ebola thread yet but it needs to be on this one too. IMHO.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...an-Reportedly-Violates-Self-Imposed-Isolation
The NBC news crew that returned from Africa after one of its photographers contracted Ebola is reportedly under a mandatory quarantine now because Dr. Nancy Snyderman may have violated the self-imposed quarantine.
On Thursday in Princeton, New Jersey, Snyderman, NBC's chief medical correspondent, was reportedly spotted by many people "sitting in her car outside of the Peasant Grill in Hopewell Boro":
A reader reported that a man who was with her got out of the car and went inside the restaurant to pick up a take-out order. Another man was in the back seat of her black Mercedes. Snyderman had sunglasses on and had her hair pulled back, the reader said.
A day after Snyderman was spotted, "New Jersey officials issued a mandatory quarantine order Friday night" for Snyderman and her NBC crew "after they said a voluntary 21-day isolation agreement was violated." State officials, "citing privacy concerns," would not tell the AP "who violated the agreement and how the state learned of a violation."
As TVNewser noted, "Snyderman's cameramen, freelancer Ashoka Mukpo, was diagnosed with the disease on Oct. 2 and was flown to Nebraska for treatment last Sunday."
State officials indicated that the "crew remains symptom-free and that there is no reason for concern of exposure to the deadly virus to the community," as the country was put on a heightened state of alert after Thomas Eric Duncan, the Liberian immigrant who became the first person on American soil to be diagnosed with Ebola, died on Wednesday.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...an-Reportedly-Violates-Self-Imposed-Isolation
The NBC news crew that returned from Africa after one of its photographers contracted Ebola is reportedly under a mandatory quarantine now because Dr. Nancy Snyderman may have violated the self-imposed quarantine.
On Thursday in Princeton, New Jersey, Snyderman, NBC's chief medical correspondent, was reportedly spotted by many people "sitting in her car outside of the Peasant Grill in Hopewell Boro":
A reader reported that a man who was with her got out of the car and went inside the restaurant to pick up a take-out order. Another man was in the back seat of her black Mercedes. Snyderman had sunglasses on and had her hair pulled back, the reader said.
A day after Snyderman was spotted, "New Jersey officials issued a mandatory quarantine order Friday night" for Snyderman and her NBC crew "after they said a voluntary 21-day isolation agreement was violated." State officials, "citing privacy concerns," would not tell the AP "who violated the agreement and how the state learned of a violation."
As TVNewser noted, "Snyderman's cameramen, freelancer Ashoka Mukpo, was diagnosed with the disease on Oct. 2 and was flown to Nebraska for treatment last Sunday."
State officials indicated that the "crew remains symptom-free and that there is no reason for concern of exposure to the deadly virus to the community," as the country was put on a heightened state of alert after Thomas Eric Duncan, the Liberian immigrant who became the first person on American soil to be diagnosed with Ebola, died on Wednesday.
This Political
Dems are worrying about the Mid-terms. They are trying to put a lid on this until after the mid-terms. They know that they are going to take hit in the Senate before this, due for the most part Obama failed Presidency. But his handling or lack of ... if this blows up now will really crush the Dems.
The Democratic Party is all about their POWER ... Republicans of course likes POWER, but not like the Dems.
Dems are worrying about the Mid-terms. They are trying to put a lid on this until after the mid-terms. They know that they are going to take hit in the Senate before this, due for the most part Obama failed Presidency. But his handling or lack of ... if this blows up now will really crush the Dems.
The Democratic Party is all about their POWER ... Republicans of course likes POWER, but not like the Dems.
Melodi
Disaster Cat
Almost Ready I totally agree with you, I also agree that there is no way all ER's is any country can have bio 4 level reactions on the ER intake level; even that much equipment existed, it could not be tolerated (and it doesn't exist).
Good points, I know from friends that work in health care (going back to my days as an clergy person and helper during the HIV/AID's period before modern drugs) that very often short cuts are the rule rather than the exception in hospitals. I think things are a lot better than they were 25 years ago, but you always have a lag between "best practice" and "reality" especially in busy places like ER's. I have been visiting HIV patient's room when first I saw bloody syringes lying on the floor, needle still in them (from the staff) and later saw a nurse quivering and shaking, come in and jab and IV in the person's arm and run out. The arm started to swell in seconds because the needle was in wrong, pressing buzzers did nothing, one person had to run down the hall screaming "there's a patient with AID's whose arm is swelling and is about to burst open with blood!" And it was one of our group, not a medical person; a doctor did come sprinting and took care of the situation, but the point is the nurse did not stay long enough to find out. I have also seen tray's dropped at the door of a room (with food) even when the patient was tied down in bed with an IV and I could go on and on.
Some of these were fear reactions, some were just not knowing any better and sometimes it was just plain over-work and being too tired to notice on the part of over-worked staff (they are human). Nine times out of ten, nothing serious goes wrong when these things happen but then there is that 10th time and with Ebola that 10th time is beyond serious to catastrophic.
But if people were that terrified of HIV, just think about what is going to happen with something like Ebola...
Good points, I know from friends that work in health care (going back to my days as an clergy person and helper during the HIV/AID's period before modern drugs) that very often short cuts are the rule rather than the exception in hospitals. I think things are a lot better than they were 25 years ago, but you always have a lag between "best practice" and "reality" especially in busy places like ER's. I have been visiting HIV patient's room when first I saw bloody syringes lying on the floor, needle still in them (from the staff) and later saw a nurse quivering and shaking, come in and jab and IV in the person's arm and run out. The arm started to swell in seconds because the needle was in wrong, pressing buzzers did nothing, one person had to run down the hall screaming "there's a patient with AID's whose arm is swelling and is about to burst open with blood!" And it was one of our group, not a medical person; a doctor did come sprinting and took care of the situation, but the point is the nurse did not stay long enough to find out. I have also seen tray's dropped at the door of a room (with food) even when the patient was tied down in bed with an IV and I could go on and on.
Some of these were fear reactions, some were just not knowing any better and sometimes it was just plain over-work and being too tired to notice on the part of over-worked staff (they are human). Nine times out of ten, nothing serious goes wrong when these things happen but then there is that 10th time and with Ebola that 10th time is beyond serious to catastrophic.
But if people were that terrified of HIV, just think about what is going to happen with something like Ebola...
Basic
If Obama did not want to ban flights, which he should of, then minimum have manditory 30 day quarantines for ALL those coming from affected areas. Once the liberals, MSM & Obama's core voting block start getting Ebola he will be impeached in the House & found guilty, convicted in a Senate vote & removed from power.
If Obama did not want to ban flights, which he should of, then minimum have manditory 30 day quarantines for ALL those coming from affected areas. Once the liberals, MSM & Obama's core voting block start getting Ebola he will be impeached in the House & found guilty, convicted in a Senate vote & removed from power.
NoPlugsNM
Deceased
You don't need IV fluids to maintain hydration levels. Consider making some packets of the ingredients to make 'ORS FLUID'. There are a lot of people who had Ebola and drank ORS fluids thru their entire sickness and lived to see the light of day afterwards. The ORS fluid is the only thing they took while in isolation with vomiting and diarrhea.
NP
And with 40+ years of research on both now in the books, we know that Ebola is something you can get merely by touching a contaminated surface, while HIV is a whole lot harder to "catch." The fear response is going to be orders of magnitude worse.
You and me both! I just can't believe that they wouldn't be parading them out in public IF they weren't ill by now.
Summerthyme
almost ready
Inactive
Absolutely. But by that point, the news was out that the other guy who helped take that woman to the hospital in Liberia with Duncan (drove around in a taxi with her) had taken ill. So they knew it was Ebola and he was from Liberia and had the symptoms. Sure, it was an error. Not a crime, but a fatal error nonetheless.
It's like a suicide hotline. Pros have to know who to focus on and who is just lonely.
Edited here: Addison Rose in post 97 tells that the ambulance drivers were told Duncan had Ebola and put on masks and gloves. Thus my conjecture is wrong. Also there is reason to believe that the nurse used Level II protocol not Level IV. End of story. Such a shame.
We just don't know.
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