LEGAL NM Court Says Christian Photographers Must Compromise Beliefs

fairbanksb

Freedom Isn't Free
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarne...an-photographers-must-compromise-beliefs.html

The New Mexico Supreme Court ruled Thursday that two Christian photographers who declined to photograph a same-sex union violated the state’s Human Rights Act. One justice said the photographers were “compelled by law to compromise the very religious beliefs that inspire their lives.”

In 2006 Vanessa Willock asked Elaine and Jonathan Huguenin, owners of Elane Photography, to photograph a same-sex “commitment ceremony” in the town of Taos.

Huguenin and her husband declined the job because their Christian beliefs were in conflict with the message communicated by the ceremony.

Willock found another photographer at a cheaper price but nevertheless filed a complaint with the New Mexico Human Rights Commission accusing Elane Photography of discrimination based on sexual orientation. She was later found guilty and ordered to pay thousands of dollars in fines.

“The Huguenins today can no more turn away customers on the basis of their sexual orientation – photographing a same-sex marriage ceremony – than they could refuse to photograph African-Americans or Muslims,” Justice Richard Bosson wrote in the court’s unanimous decision.

Bosson said the Christian photographers are now “compelled by law to compromise the very religious beliefs that inspire their lives.”

“Though the rule of law requires it, the result is sobering,” he wrote. “It will no doubt leave a tangible mark on the Huguenins and others of similar views.”

A recent Rasmussen survey found that 85 percent of Americans support the right of a photographer to refuse participating in a same-sex wedding.

Bosson said the case provokes reflection on what the nation is about.

“At its heart, this case teaches that at some point in our lives all of us must compromise, if only a little, to accommodate the contrasting values of others,” he wrote.

He said the Constitution protects the rights of the Christian photographers to pray to the God of their choice and following religious teachings, but offered a sobering warning.

“But there is a price, one that we all have to pay somewhere in our civic life,” the justice wrote. “The Huguenins have to channel their conduct, not their beliefs, so as to leave space for other Americans who believe something different. That compromise is part of the glue that holds us together as a nation, the tolerance that lubricates the varied moving parts of us as a people.”

Alliance Defending Freedom, a legal firm specializing in religious liberty cases, representing the photographers. Attorney Jordan Lorence said the ruling in effect means gay rights now trump religious rights.

“Government-coerced expression is a feature of dictatorships that has no place in a free country,” Lorence said. “This decision is a blow to our client and every American’s right to live free.”

Lorence said the New Mexico Supreme Court undermined the constitutionally protected freedoms of expression and conscience.

“If Elane Photographer does not have her rights of conscience protected, then basically nobody does,” he told Fox News. “What you have here is the government punishing someone who says, ‘I, in good conscience, cannot communicate the messages of this wedding.’”

Amber Royster, the executive director of Equality New Mexico, called the court decision a big victory.

“What it came down to is this was a case about discrimination,” she told Fox News. “While we certainly believe we are all entitled to our religious beliefs, religious beliefs don’t necessarily make it okay to break the law by discriminating against others.”

Royster said forcing a business that offers services to the public to abide by discrimination laws does not violate the First Amendment – and does not pit gay rights against religious rights.

“It’s about discrimination,” she said. “It’s not religious rights versus gay rights. We have a law on the books that makes it illegal to discriminate against LGBT persons. It makes it illegal for business to do that and this business broke the law by discriminating against this couple.”

Ken Klukowsi, of the Family Research Council, called the ruling profoundly disturbing.

“This decision may bring to Americans’ attention the serious threat to religious liberty posed by overbearing government agencies when it comes to redefining marriage,” he said. “Rather than live and let live, this is forcing religious Americans to violate the basic teachings of their faith or lose their jobs.”

Lorence said they are considering appealing the ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court.

“This is very coercive, very authoritarian to crush those who do not agree and make public examples of them – and in a free society, that simply should not be,” he said.

TODD IS THE AUTHOR OF DISPATCHES FROM BITTER AMERICA – ENDORSED BY SARAH PALIN, MARK LEVIN AND SEAN HANNITY. CLICK HERE TO GET YOUR COPY!
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
This seems pretty easy - just quote a price well beyond the competition - and do so without comment.

If queried why so high a price, the reply can be "*I'll do anything you want - but that's MY price" without explanation.

Or make something up. "You don't understand my overheads. Price of film, price of insurance, wear and tear on equipment, transport time and setup, developing is an ARTFORM requiring the skill of a trained professional."

And if they persist - take their money, do a good job, and donate the excess to causes/organizations counter to their situation. How you spend your (their) money is up to YOU. And NOT your government.

Meanwhile consider another line of work or another locale.

Dobbin
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
"If you choose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition—which you cannot force—that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. Whatever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there—I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine—I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me—use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action."

- Atlas Shrugged
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
This seems pretty easy - just quote a price well beyond the competition - and do so without comment.

If queried why so high a price, the reply can be "*I'll do anything you want - but that's MY price" without .

Dobbin

Bingo! Situational awareness. Conduct yourself like your in enemy territory because you are. Can't afford to have your head down and locked in these days.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Oh, a good photographer could have SO much fun with this.

Take the job.

Take all the BAD pictures possible.

Summerthyme
 

fairbanksb

Freedom Isn't Free
This seems pretty easy - just quote a price well beyond the competition - and do so without comment.

If queried why so high a price, the reply can be "*I'll do anything you want - but that's MY price" without explanation.

Or make something up. "You don't understand my overheads. Price of film, price of insurance, wear and tear on equipment, transport time and setup, developing is an ARTFORM requiring the skill of a trained professional."

And if they persist - take their money, do a good job, and donate the excess to causes/organizations counter to their situation. How you spend your (their) money is up to YOU. And NOT your government.

Meanwhile consider another line of work or another locale.

Dobbin

That will work as long as you don't have prices listed or displayed somewhere. Better yet, just say that your booked up with another job. Problem is, you shouldn't have to lie just because you are Christian. I wonder if the court would rule the same if a Muslim caterer were to turn down a job where the client requested roast pork.
 

MtnGal

Has No Life - Lives on TB
They always have to make an issue out of everything. There are plenty of photographers, preachers, caterers that will be happy to comply with what they want. They love causing a scene, just look at their parades - disgusting show.

That goes for everyone. I wouldn't go to an Italian caterer and demand a Polish menu. I wouldn't go to a Rabbi and demand a Christian wedding.

And no, a court would throw it out if a Muslim caterer were to turn down a job where the client requested roast pork. They are protected.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Better yet, just say that your booked up with another job. Problem is, you shouldn't have to lie just because you are Christian.

Claiming overheads would not be a Christian lie. Adherence to a religion is not always without cost - or benefit.

Owner forgoes income from his farm on Sunday. The "honor cart" out front is pulled in. Believer in blue laws he says it's his day of rest (HA!) And forgoing income doesn't mean Owner isn't WORKING. And frequently some of the rest of us TOO.

This a sort of "honor" thing for him methinks. Throwback to an earlier less hectic age? Certainly a tradition.

Dobbin
 

mzkitty

I give up.
All that needs to be said is: "Sorry, we're booked solid."

Apparently the photographers must have said WHY they wouldn't do the pictures? That was dumb.
 

Jeff Allen

Producer
Methinks Dennis hit the nail on the head here.

Ya'll know I'll hop right on the bandwagon in defense of gay peeps to find a willing minister and get what ever sort of marriage they are able to obtain, or any other civil right they are lacking.

But this is wrong headed as it does not take into account the civil RIGHT of an individual to NOT perform a job they find immoral!

What if a strip joint operator asked a devout Christian photographer for a racy set of photos from within his strip club? Can the photographer not decline based on his/her own moral grounds?

To me this decision is just as tyrannical as when folks on the other side say gays have no right to "marry"...ie. enter into the same sort of miserable contract many heterosexuals choose too....

J
 

buttie

Veteran Member
There is another issue that may be present here that needs to be discussed. I've been teaching a 12 week course from The Institute on the Constitution and we're now almost done. While people have natural rights endowed by their creator, a corporation is created by the state and as such pretty much has to do as required by the state. There are benefits and costs involved in a corporation. I don't know if they were incorporated, but if they were the state would have a right to tell the corporation what to do.

I do like the unreasonably high price with bad pictures plan though.
 

etc

Inactive
All that needs to be said is: "Sorry, we're booked solid."

Apparently the photographers must have said WHY they wouldn't do the pictures? That was dumb.

Except if they didn't say it was a homosexual wedding, and they got on site to discover the facts 5 minutes before the show. Which is the most likely event.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Except if they didn't say it was a homosexual wedding, and they got on site to discover the facts 5 minutes before the show. Which is the most likely event.

Unlikely. Most photographers are given the relevant information about the wedding, and the "important guests". If two women show up and ask about getting "their wedding" filmed, you'd have to be pretty obtuse to not realize it was a gay wedding.

I think that this couple unfortunately didn't think about the possibility in advance, and when asked, they answered honestly... but not using PC speech. If they'd thought about it in advance, they could have come up with some of the "reasons" others have suggested here.. "oh, I'm sorry, we already have a wedding booked that weekend" would have worked just fine.

Summerthyme
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Except if they didn't say it was a homosexual wedding, and they got on site to discover the facts 5 minutes before the show. Which is the most likely event.

If a contractor signed a contract to perform - and for whatever reason (including religion) chooses not to perform, then he may be liable for contract liquidation damages.

For large industrial contracts, these are usually outlined in advance.

For a discovery such as this it might be possible that the photographer could own the WHOLE wedding. Or at least the cost to make a rescheduling or remediate damages (might include the Honeymoon Trip afterwards too.)

Ouch!

Dobbin
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
This court is definitely over reaching beyond what they are allowed to do, If there was no binding contract the court has no jurisdiction in the matter.
 

rhughe13

Heart of Dixie
This court is definitely over reaching beyond what they are allowed to do, If there was no binding contract the court has no jurisdiction in the matter.

If I was forced by judicial law and gunpoint to give up my Christianity due to a judge, I would probably start by offing the judge.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
I was thinking more of the most unflattering shots possible of the "brides" and the guests. Believe me, after everyone has had a few drinks, there are LOTS of opportunities. Get audio of the guests being catty... oh, yeah, lots of opportunities.

Summerthyme
 

Garryowen

Deceased
I will NOT do weddings!

I believe that this photographer was set up.

I'm sure you are right. Christians are more of a threat than guns in citizens' hands. I guess they think that if they can silence public expression of morals, God won't see them.
 

Bolt

FJB
Doesn't a business owner have the right to refuse service? And who would want to force someone to photograph a wedding (I hate that word being used for same sex unions - it' not a wedding, it's a same sex union and if people would refer to it that way, they may find some people a little more amenable to it) they didn't want to? I just don't understand why people want to force someone to do something they are not comfortable doing.
 

ShadowMan

Designated Grumpy Old Fart
Hmmmm well I look at this along the same lines as forcing a Muslim to eat pork, or a Jew to violate their Kosher beliefs!

Who is the victim of discrimination here?!?!?!? :shr: :spns:

As a Christian I do not have to, nor can I be forced to violate my beliefs....except by force - and you'd better bring a lot of heavily armed buddies, because I will.
 

TXKajun

Veteran Member
Once again, a member of an extreme minority forcing itself down the throats of decent folks. And the courts not only seem to allow it, they're all but encouraging it. Disgusting!

Heterosexuals of the USA Unite!

Kajun
 

ar10shooter

Inactive
All that needs to be said is: "Sorry, we're booked solid."

Apparently the photographers must have said WHY they wouldn't do the pictures? That was dumb.


That's what I'm talking about in another thread. Why? Why? Why? Should they have to say it that way. Say it like it is. No I don't do gay unions or what ever the heck you call it. Because I disagree on religious grounds. Simple enough....the blacks can have their black only college, the gays can have their pride parade but the catholic cant have their religious based photography business? Can't figure out why this makes sense to people.
 

Ravekid

Veteran Member
“At its heart, this case teaches that at some point in our lives all of us must compromise, if only a little, to accommodate the contrasting values of others,” he wrote.

“But there is a price, one that we all have to pay somewhere in our civic life,” the justice wrote. “The Huguenins have to channel their conduct, not their beliefs, so as to leave space for other Americans who believe something different. That compromise is part of the glue that holds us together as a nation, the tolerance that lubricates the varied moving parts of us as a people.”

The solution is simple: Rudeness, bluntness, etc.. Go ahead and provide the conduct, but there is nothing to say one has to be friendly about it. This has already went to court in a disability lawsuit. A longtime customer of a diner started bringing her service dog to the restaurant. Friendly servers became less than friendly. I think even the owner stopped being nice. They demanded the dog be kept on the floor and out of the walkway. She stopped going and sued. She lost. Court said all the place has to do is provide a service, which they did. They didn't mess with her food, didn't charge her more, she ordered, they served. If they didn't make nice, it didn't matter. As for making the dog stay under the table, no problem with that. Dogs don't belong in seats or booths, and they provide a trip hazard if in a walkway.

So the next same sex wedding that signs up, just be blunt, advise they will do the ceremony, no smiling, no friendlies. Give us your money, tell us when to show up. Most people want folks truly interested in something of this importance. This sounds like a set-up from the get-go. The ruling will continue to erode the country, as we will continue to put people into groups, which will erode individual rights for special treatment of groups.

I hope they appeal it in the federal courts.
 

Jeff B.

Don’t let the Piss Ants get you down…
“But there is a price, one that we all have to pay somewhere in our civic life,” the justice wrote. “The Huguenins have to channel their conduct, not their beliefs, so as to leave space for other Americans who believe something different. That compromise is part of the glue that holds us together as a nation, the tolerance that lubricates the varied moving parts of us as a people.”

This judge and those that seek to impose their lifestyle choices on others will find life uncomfortable when the wheels come off of this declining latter day Rome. They'll be shocked when "the barbarians" throw off the yoke of their Progressive oppression. For a short period of time.

Jeff B.
 

Flashyzipp

Veteran Member
I am a photographer. I have been contacted by same sex couples to photograph their wedding. I call them back, look up their day and tell them I am sorry I am booked that day . . . I don't want to get into a battle.
 

mbabulldog

Inactive
That will work as long as you don't have prices listed or displayed somewhere. Better yet, just say that your booked up with another job. Problem is, you shouldn't have to lie just because you are Christian. I wonder if the court would rule the same if a Muslim caterer were to turn down a job where the client requested roast pork.

^^^this^^^^ .

If an LGBT can document they were treated differently, even if it is in pricing, you're in trouble.
I agree with another poster: "sorry, I'm already booked that day".
or better yet, the day of the ceremony "I came down with a HORRIBLE stomach bug. Puking, etc, couldn't make it out of the john".
 

etc

Inactive
Unlikely. Most photographers are given the relevant information about the wedding, and the "important guests". If two women show up and ask about getting "their wedding" filmed, you'd have to be pretty obtuse to not realize it was a gay wedding.

I think that this couple unfortunately didn't think about the possibility in advance, and when asked, they answered honestly... but not using PC speech. If they'd thought about it in advance, they could have come up with some of the "reasons" others have suggested here.. "oh, I'm sorry, we already have a wedding booked that weekend" would have worked just fine.

Summerthyme

I am still not convinced. What if they made a phone reservation? "Can you do a wedding at such and such time, here is the address and what are your fees?" Who would have thought to ask what kind of wedding it is. They might ask, where and how many people and such.

This is probably what happened, they made arrangements by phone and what a surprise it was when the photo guy showed up. Given the litigative nature of the case, it's likely as hell that they client hid the nature of the situation, setting up the photo people for the lawsuit.
 
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