OT/MISC It’s Time to Take a Hard Look at Public Libraries

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________

Like mom and apple pie, the public library seems so intrinsically good that it should be beyond criticism. But like any institution that consumes millions of tax dollars, public libraries should not be free from scrutiny. And the facts are that neighborhood libraries have largely outlived their usefulness and no longer provide value for the public money spent on them.

Consider the situation in Northern California, for example. In this fiscal year, four Bay Area counties (Alameda, Contra Costa, San Mateo, and Santa Clara) are collectively spending $270 million to operate their library systems, with some cities chipping in extra to finance extended operating hours. Contra Costa County is spending $20 million of state and county funds to build a new library in Bay Point, and El Cerrito voters may see a sales tax measure on the November ballot, part of which will go to building a new library as part of a transit‐oriented development near a Bay Area Rapid Transit station.

The public library’s historical functions of lending physical books and enabling patrons to view reference materials are being made obsolete by digital technology. An increasing proportion of adults are consuming e‑books and audiobooks in addition to or instead of printed books, with younger adults more likely to use these alternative formats.

In response, libraries have tried to reposition themselves as “third places”: alternatives to homes and offices where people can relax, learn, and socialize. But the private sector offers numerous third places of its own, with coffeehouses being the most common.

In Walnut Creek, California, the public library has responded by adding its own coffee shop, but just a few minutes away, residents and visitors can relax and enjoy free Wi‐Fi at the Capital One Café at no cost to taxpayers and without being required to buy a cup of joe.

While no third place used by the public can be guaranteed to be safe and clean, private operators have a stronger incentive to provide an attractive environment because they otherwise risk going out of business.

They also face fewer legal restraints in enforcing public decorum. A 1991 federal court decision prohibited a New Jersey public library from “barring patrons who are not reading, studying or using library materials, who harass or annoy others through noisy activities or by staring, or whose ‘bodily hygiene is so offensive’ that it is a nuisance to others.”

As the Bay Area News Group reported in February, the Antioch library had to be temporarily closed after multiple incidents “including a couple having sex openly in the bathroom, a wanted criminal using a library computer who was later removed by Antioch police, a racist letter left on the service desk and intoxicated library patrons acting aggressively.” The Contra Costa Public Library, which operates the Antioch facility, reopened it four days later after negotiating an emergency contract for private armed security and arranging for a patrol car to monitor the exterior.

Library advocates argue that their public terminals offer essential internet access to those in need. But some patrons use free internet access at the local library to view pornographic content, sometimes to the distress of other terminal users, including children. And low‐income individuals are eligible for the Federal Communications Commission’s Lifeline program, which provides a free smartphone with internet access.

Like local post offices, neighborhood libraries once served an important community function but are now becoming increasingly irrelevant. And, as with post offices, libraries continue to receive funding because they enjoy support from a relatively small but vocal segment of the population, while the rest of us are usually too reluctant to question their utility.
 

straightstreet

Life is better in flip flops
The libraries are no longer really located in walkable neighborhoods is part of the problem. Also, parents are not taking their kids to the library, not even home schoolers.
Our sons were homeschooled and graduated in 2013 and 2017. We didn't allow them to participate in our local library activities because the head librarian claimed to be a witch. She even wrote a book on witches and warlocks and how to cast spells. She is now the county wide head witch...er...librarian.
 

Buick Electra

TB2K Girls with Guns
Our town library is in full swing with many programs throughout the year for the kids NOT involving tranny story times. Most of the historical books are gone giving space for more Harlequin romance novels for the adults. :rolleyes: As a result I rarely use the library but I know it is beneficial for the kids.
 

Deena in GA

Administrator
_______________
I don’t really use our local library because my house is already covered in books, but do go a couple of times a year to buy more from the little “store” where they sell donated books. However, they’re good people and do have good programs specifically for homeschoolers. In fact, next week I’m holding our homeschool group’s annual field day and used book sale at the library for the second year in a row.
 

Sacajawea

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I used to spend endless enjoyable hours in libraries. Sometimes reference materials - which seemed to open up all kinds of avenues for curiosity and imagination to explore. And the smell of all those books was even better than a fresh pot of coffee! Card catalogs... were an amazing navigation tool. And I'd usually walk out with a big armload of books on whatever my current interest was to devour at leisure in my private corner of the house.

Why couldn't they go back to being that again? Why actually reduce their collections? Whatever will introverts DO without a quiet library corner near a sunny window?
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
Who would want to go there or take their kids there as they have these gay men in wild getups that want nothing more than have sex with little kids.
 

nomifyle

TB Fanatic
I always loved the library...When I worked at Tulane Medical School I would either walk in the quarter or spend time in the city library. There was a big book store on Decatur Street the I frequently went to on my lunch hour. That and the very popular music store next door are long gone. I think katrina killed both of them. I spent way too much money in the book store.

There is a decent small town library in the village near me. When I first moved here I would frequent it but got away from it, probably after DH came on the scene.
 

Seeker22

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I used to spend endless enjoyable hours in libraries. Sometimes reference materials - which seemed to open up all kinds of avenues for curiosity and imagination to explore. And the smell of all those books was even better than a fresh pot of coffee! Card catalogs... were an amazing navigation tool. And I'd usually walk out with a big armload of books on whatever my current interest was to devour at leisure in my private corner of the house.

Why couldn't they go back to being that again? Why actually reduce their collections? Whatever will introverts DO without a quiet library corner near a sunny window?

I have a sunny window and a library. No need to drive or put up with people's BS. Library book sales, Flea Bay back when books were .99 cents and free shipping, and garage sales, netted me a pretty good haul. Lots of old stuff. I do miss our county library back in the days of card catalogs when people knew how to act and a "tranny" was a car part.
 

wobble

Veteran Member
The Sandy Springs Library in North Atl is becoming part of a "downtown concourse" where 15 Minute City Sprawl and DEI has taken over completely and is a major destination feature that balanced out the new(UGLY) convention center where Goodwill, Target, and a decent forest used to be.
 

Landcruiser

Contributing Member
The libraries are no longer really located in walkable neighborhoods is part of the problem. Also, parents are not taking their kids to the library, not even home schoolers.
I wholeheartedly disagree... (and don't normally with Kathy) our Library is clean well stocked, within walking distance and we use it multiple times per week as our kids are voracious readers. Ours has art displays and you can check out different small tools and appliances as well with many opportunities for community engagement. We have used multiple libraries in our local area and intent to continue to do so.

Please consider the generational differences and where you are at in life before making statements on use when you yourself have moved on from the usefulness of the library. There have been times where I would have said the same thing; but we attempt to be engaged with our broader community as much as possible and the library is one of the places that happens at.

I also live in a smaller community of less than 12K attached to a larger metro area. Safety and vagrants are not much of a concern in our area.
 

Marseydoats

Veteran Member
The libraries are no longer really located in walkable neighborhoods is part of the problem. Also, parents are not taking their kids to the library, not even home schoolers.

Folks here take their kids to the library ALL the time. They have all kinds of neat activities for them, quite a few don't involve reading at all. They have senior programs Mon-Fri. The Vietnam Vets meet there several days a week. Our library is always busy.
I feel like the library is the only use I get for my tax dollars. The county certainly doesn't maintain our roads.
I still prefer a physical book to digital. And I absolutely loathe audio books.
 

Blacknarwhal

Let's Go Brandon!
Our town library is in full swing with many programs throughout the year for the kids NOT involving tranny story times. Most of the historical books are gone giving space for more Harlequin romance novels for the adults. :rolleyes: As a result I rarely use the library but I know it is beneficial for the kids.

Lots of programs at the libraries around here. They really focus on the kids and teen sets. The one in my hometown is old and frankly dumpy, but the one a town over is a sharp, nice facility. I've gone there plenty of times during power outages or network loss to work.
 

lisa

Veteran Member
Libraries are like restaurants...choose from the menu what you wish to eat and leave the rest. As a parent now days though I would always be supervising my childrens activities no matter where we are...the world is just an ugly place. No drag queen story time for them for sure. The computer section does need to be monitored for porn usage but overall...that is a necessary resource for those without access to the internet for job hunting etc. I SO miss having a library.
 

Tristan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Our sons were homeschooled and graduated in 2013 and 2017. We didn't allow them to participate in our local library activities because the head librarian claimed to be a witch. She even wrote a book on witches and warlocks and how to cast spells. She is now the county wide head witch...er...librarian.

Well, Diversity is our Strength.

Ain't it?

:rolleyes:
 

justme

Senior Member
We also have an outstanding library in my neck of the woods, only thing I don't care for is the fact that your library card is now only good for one year and you have to go in to renew with identification in hand to renew. It feels like a quasi tracking program.
 

amarilla

Veteran Member
My daughter and MIL read the digital books and borrow those from the library. Digital books aren't the same as paper books though.

My Discover credit card was frauded at Amazon back in October of 2023. Amazon said call Discover, which I did. Discover shut down the card. Both Amazon and Discover have done investigations and both agree that I was frauded. However, Amazon refuses to let me access my digital books THAT I PAID FOR until I pay them the $1300 fraud. At least with physical books, while they could burn in a fire, I can still read them.

Another problem with digital books is that they can change what it says. Print books are harder to change. They leave some chance of showing what the original said. China changed Robinson Crusoe to edit out he read the Bible.

I liked having so many books on my Kindle but now it's useless unless I pay $1300 for stuff I didn't order. So as much as it annoying other family members, I'm back to print copies.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
My Discover credit card was frauded at Amazon back in October of 2023. Amazon said call Discover, which I did. Discover shut down the card. Both Amazon and Discover have done investigations and both agree that I was frauded. However, Amazon refuses to let me access my digital books THAT I PAID FOR until I pay them the $1300 fraud. At least with physical books, while they could burn in a fire, I can still read them.



I liked having so many books on my Kindle but now it's useless unless I pay $1300 for stuff I didn't order. So as much as it annoying other family members, I'm back to print copies.



This doesn't make any sense, why would you pay for the fraud charges made on your Discover card? Seems that this is something Discover should be addressing.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Here in the Bay Area and San Juaqin County a big problem are the homeless settling into the libraries and causing commotion. Heck the library here in Tracy has security guards inside to maintain some peace but going into the place gives me the same feeling as going into an ER.

I'm not into the whole safe space thing, however, a library should be an actual safe place! A place where one can quietly sit and read a book and get lost in the story line, be it fiction, fantasy, sci fi, or nonfiction. When I was an undergrad, and was "blessed" with roommates that were extroverts, I spent many hours in the stacks at the university library reading both for my classes and for fun.
 

Abe Froman

Senior Member
My daughter and MIL read the digital books and borrow those from the library. Digital books aren't the same as paper books though.

My Discover credit card was frauded at Amazon back in October of 2023. Amazon said call Discover, which I did. Discover shut down the card. Both Amazon and Discover have done investigations and both agree that I was frauded. However, Amazon refuses to let me access my digital books THAT I PAID FOR until I pay them the $1300 fraud. At least with physical books, while they could burn in a fire, I can still read them.

Another problem with digital books is that they can change what it says. Print books are harder to change. They leave some chance of showing what the original said. China changed Robinson Crusoe to edit out he read the Bible.

I liked having so many books on my Kindle but now it's useless unless I pay $1300 for stuff I didn't order. So as much as it annoying other family members, I'm back to print copies.
Forget Kindle.

Get a local library card and try the Libby app.
It’s free.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
I wholeheartedly disagree... (and don't normally with Kathy) our Library is clean well stocked, within walking distance and we use it multiple times per week as our kids are voracious readers. Ours has art displays and you can check out different small tools and appliances as well with many opportunities for community engagement. We have used multiple libraries in our local area and intent to continue to do so.

Please consider the generational differences and where you are at in life before making statements on use when you yourself have moved on from the usefulness of the library. There have been times where I would have said the same thing; but we attempt to be engaged with our broader community as much as possible and the library is one of the places that happens at.

I also live in a smaller community of less than 12K attached to a larger metro area. Safety and vagrants are not much of a concern in our area.

In Tampa proper, and especially true outside of the city, the libraries aren't in walkable neighborhoods. The main branch is downtown and in order to go there you have to use a parking garage (which costs) and walk what for most kids and adults would be a "fair" distance. It is the same garage used by the Straz (performing arts center) and many times parking spots can be hard to find.

We have 33 library branches in Hillsborough County. There are also 10 "historical libraries" and a couple of genealogical libraries. The historical and genealogical libraries are not necessarily open to the public but some of them you can make a special request or appointment to see. There are also the university libraries ... HCC (Hillsborough Community College) and its various branches, USF (University of South Florida) and its various college libraries, UT (University of Tampa) a private university, and at least a dozen other universities and colleges are various sizes with their own libraries. Only HCC and USF are "open to the public" assuming you can find and pay for parking and obtain a visitor but unless you are a student you cannot check out materials and/or visit any special collections.

None of the above are in residential neighborhoods and often are entered off of busy highways and streets. Even if they are named after neighborhoods, the residential area of that neighborhood does not abut the library. There used to be miniscule branches in the indoor malls but those have very limited hours and inventory, sometimes only a small children's section and nothing for adults. Most of the indoor malls around here having been shuttering for years.

Additionally there are over 300 schools in Hillsborough county with approx 225,000 public school students. There are several schools on the books to be built in the coming decade. Then add in all of the home school and/or privately tutored students in this county which numbers over 11,000.

And yet, our libraries are under-utilized. Why? Some of it is location. Some of it is lack of parental transportation. Very few of the branches have public transportation stops near them. Several branches don't open until 2:30 pm and/or close at 5 or 6 pm. Some of it is inventory. They stock what the librarians want to read, not necessarily what the users want to read. They get rid of the craft type books so fast that you go back to look for an older one only to find it is no longer in the collection.

I used to be a religious user of the library system. Several branches knew me by name. I haven't in years simply because of some of the problematic issues.



 

kyrsyan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I don't use our physical library location very often anymore. But I have 5 different digital library cards, some of which I pay for, that allow me to use OverDrive. Different library systems have access to different things. It is interesting to see the variances between areas.

The libraries here have quiet study rooms available, as well as meeting rooms that can be rented out. And computer access for those people that still don't have computer access at home, for whatever reason. (And that is important.) I know at least one of the local libraries leaves their public wifi accessible to card users any time of day or night. So if you have a laptop or tablet and need a hotspot, you can access it.

The only libraries that are no longer useful are likely those libraries that were becoming non-useful before technology hit. Good librarians and towns have kept their libraries as useful as possible. I personally have used both their study rooms and meeting rooms for business meetings/interviews.

And while "dead tree" books are not necessarily useful for all things anymore, there is knowledge that should be kept in physical form. And there are those of us who learn best from physical books.
 

hiwall

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I can easily understand the problems listed in the above article. I expect many of those problems are fairly common in larger cities and will very likely get much worse.
Though we have lived here for many years I visited the library in the local small town (less than 5000 pop) for the first time a few months ago. I needed the use of a copy machine and that was the only spot in town to have copies made.
It was a very new building and it was huge. They had the normal rows of books with aisles maybe 12 feet wide! Lots of empty space everywhere. I asked about having copies made and one of the two women made them for me and both were friendly.
I was surprised by the very large size and all the empty wasted space. There were very few people inside and it was a regular weekday though school was in session so no kids.
I am certainly glad they have a library for the use of the public but the huge size was a very real waste of tax dollars.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
I can easily understand the problems listed in the above article. I expect many of those problems are fairly common in larger cities and will very likely get much worse.
Though we have lived here for many years I visited the library in the local small town (less than 5000 pop) for the first time a few months ago. I needed the use of a copy machine and that was the only spot in town to have copies made.
It was a very new building and it was huge. They had the normal rows of books with aisles maybe 12 feet wide! Lots of empty space everywhere. I asked about having copies made and one of the two women made them for me and both were friendly.
I was surprised by the very large size and all the empty wasted space. There were very few people inside and it was a regular weekday though school was in session so no kids.
I am certainly glad they have a library for the use of the public but the huge size was a very real waste of tax dollars.

The distance between the shelves is an ADA requirement for those using wheelchairs and the like.
 

Milkweed Host

Veteran Member
We have three new libraries nearby, very nice clean buildings.
All very quiet because very few use them. They all have nice
meeting rooms and lots of computer terminals for kids and adults to use.
My daughter worked in different libraries for a dozen years or so.
I once asked her who uses the library. She said that the internet gets the most use.
Parents drop kids off for an hour or more. (free child care)

I think that the internet has killed the old libraries that we are all used to.

Times are changing. I think that many of the current libraries are on life support and
will simply disappear into history.
 

Kathy in FL

Administrator
_______________
You used to be able to check out documentaries and movies, some of them even first run. These days? Very few people even have CD or DVD players as so much has gone digital. And many books were at one time digital, even children's books. Most of those are now obsolete as well. You can get it all through amazon with the use of a prime membership. Amazon, Applebooks, Audible, archive.org, YouTube which has both movies for free, for rent, and audiobooks available.

Libraries just can't keep up.
 

Griz3752

Retired, practising Curmudgeon

Like mom and apple pie, the public library seems so intrinsically good that it should be beyond criticism. But like any institution that consumes millions of tax dollars, public libraries should not be free from scrutiny. And the facts are that neighborhood libraries have largely outlived their usefulness and no longer provide value for the public money spent on them.

Consider the situation in Northern California, for example. In this fiscal year, four Bay Area counties (Alameda, Contra Costa, San Mateo, and Santa Clara) are collectively spending $270 million to operate their library systems, with some cities chipping in extra to finance extended operating hours. Contra Costa County is spending $20 million of state and county funds to build a new library in Bay Point, and El Cerrito voters may see a sales tax measure on the November ballot, part of which will go to building a new library as part of a transit‐oriented development near a Bay Area Rapid Transit station.

The public library’s historical functions of lending physical books and enabling patrons to view reference materials are being made obsolete by digital technology. An increasing proportion of adults are consuming e‑books and audiobooks in addition to or instead of printed books, with younger adults more likely to use these alternative formats.

In response, libraries have tried to reposition themselves as “third places”: alternatives to homes and offices where people can relax, learn, and socialize. But the private sector offers numerous third places of its own, with coffeehouses being the most common.

In Walnut Creek, California, the public library has responded by adding its own coffee shop, but just a few minutes away, residents and visitors can relax and enjoy free Wi‐Fi at the Capital One Café at no cost to taxpayers and without being required to buy a cup of joe.

While no third place used by the public can be guaranteed to be safe and clean, private operators have a stronger incentive to provide an attractive environment because they otherwise risk going out of business.

They also face fewer legal restraints in enforcing public decorum. A 1991 federal court decision prohibited a New Jersey public library from “barring patrons who are not reading, studying or using library materials, who harass or annoy others through noisy activities or by staring, or whose ‘bodily hygiene is so offensive’ that it is a nuisance to others.”

As the Bay Area News Group reported in February, the Antioch library had to be temporarily closed after multiple incidents “including a couple having sex openly in the bathroom, a wanted criminal using a library computer who was later removed by Antioch police, a racist letter left on the service desk and intoxicated library patrons acting aggressively.” The Contra Costa Public Library, which operates the Antioch facility, reopened it four days later after negotiating an emergency contract for private armed security and arranging for a patrol car to monitor the exterior.

Library advocates argue that their public terminals offer essential internet access to those in need. But some patrons use free internet access at the local library to view pornographic content, sometimes to the distress of other terminal users, including children. And low‐income individuals are eligible for the Federal Communications Commission’s Lifeline program, which provides a free smartphone with internet access.

Like local post offices, neighborhood libraries once served an important community function but are now becoming increasingly irrelevant. And, as with post offices, libraries continue to receive funding because they enjoy support from a relatively small but vocal segment of the population, while the rest of us are usually too reluctant to question their utility.
We'e got a 4-5 location Public Library in Memphis but we've only used the Main Branch - about 3 miles straight shot from out residence. It was a life saver a few years ago when we had unreliable web access but I don't think we've gone there for 2-3 years.

Membership is free and because the bulk of the users can't be bothered about returning things, I think most pf their budget is directed to staff, building Maintenance and replacements for the collection.

Probably better to spend the $$ around here on public transit or EMS
 

MMWW

Contributing Member
I grew up using the library. It was a great solution to a lot of problems. I seldom need to go there now but it is my plan B, should I lose internet. They also offer some serrvices I may want, such as access to Ancestry.com.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Very few people even have CD or DVD players as so much has gone digital.


This is changing as many my generation have notice the not so subtle changes that are being made to old movies and tv shows to support woke ideologies. So now there's a rush to buy a new dvd player, most play CD's now, and dig out the old dvd's, etc. People under 30 could probably care less about the woke ideologies or the changes being made to the classics.
 

kyrsyan

Has No Life - Lives on TB
This is changing as many my generation have notice the not so subtle changes that are being made to old movies and tv shows to support woke ideologies. So now there's a rush to buy a new dvd player, most play CD's now, and dig out the old dvd's, etc. People under 30 could probably care less about the woke ideologies or the changes being made to the classics.
They may not care about that. But they are learning to care about the fact that streaming services limit what they can watch. And that movies they like may not be available.
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
They may not care about that. But they are learning to care about the fact that streaming services limit what they can watch. And that movies they like may not be available.

The people I know who are going back to DVD's do actually care about this sort of thing, many of them have what they are calling "trans fatigue".
 
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