WAR If Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine, the Baltics are likely next

Troke

On TB every waking moment
Opinion: If Putin isn’t stopped in Ukraine, the Baltics are likely next
By Michael Gerson

I was with President George W. Bush when he visited Lithuania in 2002, just after the Baltic states had been offered membership in NATO. Bush had been one of the strongest advocates for the inclusion of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia in the alliance, which would establish the obligation of mutual defense.

At the celebration ceremony, Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus presented Bush with the Cross of the Order of Vytautas the Great, his country’s highest honor. Bush presented Adamkus with a basketball signed by Michael Jordan, revealing a different set of cultural priorities. But Bush’s speech that day (which I helped produce) highlighted a greater gift: “Anyone who would choose Lithuania as an enemy,” he said, “has also made an enemy of the United States of America. In the face of aggression, the brave people of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia will never again stand alone.”

You could almost hear three nations exhale in relief. The Baltics have the misfortune of sitting at a bloody geopolitical crossroads, and their last two occupations were particularly horrifying. Nazi German “killing units” murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews. The Soviet Union deported half a million Baltic citizens to gulags or Siberia. The Soviets also imported ethnic Russians to change the ethnic composition of these conquered nations.

The United States never recognized Soviet Russia’s illegal occupation of the Baltics. But its and NATO’s commitment to prevent any future occupation engendered some controversy. Experts such as George Kennan thought that NATO membership for a former constitutive republic of the U.S.S.R. would needlessly provoke the Russians. And some military observers found the actual NATO defense of the Baltics — on Russia’s border and far from NATO’s centers of military power — to be a near impossibility.

The argument over the NATO-ization of the Baltics was a prelude to disputes over Russian President Vladimir Putin’s intentions in Ukraine and beyond. Some experts bluntly explain — as did the title of a 2014 article by the University of Chicago political scientist John J. Mearsheimer — “Why the Ukraine Crisis is the West’s Fault.” Mearsheimer contended that Russian leaders “would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion.”

In this view, Putin is primarily the defender of the Russian homeland. His soldiers might have the moral restraint of drunken Cossacks, but he is resisting the hubristic expansion of a hostile military alliance.

This conviction, no doubt, is widely shared among Russians, and easily exploitable by their leader. Putin has portrayed his unprovoked attack on Ukraine as another reaction to fascist aggression from the West. His deception runs along well-worn historical grooves. Over the centuries, Russia has faced invasions from across the vast, flat plain reaching from Germany to the heart of Mother Russia. For many older Russians, memories of World War II consist mainly of Western perfidy and Russian indomitability.

Putin has written almost lyrically about the spiritual unity between Kyiv and Moscow. Evidently he bombs only the ones he loves. But his intentions are far more practical. The Putin-NATO divide might not rise to the level of ideological conflict, but it does involve a serious argument about the future of Europe.

Most recent U.S. presidents have maintained that NATO expansion is the natural outcome of a rules-based international order. European countries that meet defined standards on good governance, economic freedom and civilian control of the military can be admitted. This has helped consolidate several democratic transitions in Eastern Europe. It has also helped rectify the terrible wrong of the Yalta agreements, which formally cut Europe into areas of dominance and threw a number of vulnerable nations to the wolves.

Putin’s contrasting goal, says former U.S. ambassador to NATO and Russia Alexander Vershbow, is “to pressure the West into accepting some sort of Yalta 2, a Europe divided into spheres of influence with limited sovereignty for everyone but Russia.” This would allow him to restore Russian hegemony over its “near abroad.”

Why is this conflict between rules and spheres so important? If Putin is engaged in a defensive struggle, then the Ukraine war is mainly about Ukraine. Some will propose that President Volodymyr Zelensky make the necessary concessions — no Ukrainian NATO membership, Russian control of the Donbas region — to end a bloody war. Peace through self-dismemberment.

On NATO’s vulnerable eastern edge, Baltic nations face high stakes in Ukraine crisis

But if Putin is attempting to reconstruct the Russian sphere of influence in Europe, his success in Ukraine would pave the way for future horrors. The logic that led to Russian aggression in Georgia and Ukraine — no NATO in the Russian sphere — would almost certainly lead toward the Baltics.

The lesson? Ukraine, with aggressive help from NATO, must defeat Russian forces, or the United States might soon face the question: Do we really fight for Lithuania? Though we are obligated, the decision and task would not be easy. Helping draw a NATO redline at Ukraine could help the United States preserve itself from impossible choices of the future.

The Word on the Street is that Sweden and Finland have suddenly shown an interest in joining NATO. They must feel menaced.
 

naegling62

Veteran Member
Whether or not Nuland and the bunch overthrow Russia, Putin and his bunch are going to turn NATO into a beast. Russia will dissolve. The stans are seeing Russia as inept.

Dugin's dream of Eurasianism will fail. NATO will engulf Russian western Oblasts. Putin hasn't long left. Lukashenko will turn on him like a cheesy 1990's Hollywood stereotype ex communist dictator. We are in monumental times.
 
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Walrus

Veteran Member
Why? Do the Baltic states have large energy reserves?
They don't have much of anything except some marginally good ice-free ports on the Baltic Sea, but that's a great place to bottle up a fleet when one looks at the straits of Denmark. Russia - for all its immensity - is largely sensitive to its fleets being vulnerable to being isolated and picked off in both the Baltic and Black Seas. The places on their east coast such as the Sakhalin Islands are too far away from their Euro-centric population centers to have much of an impact on their logistics. (Plus they've been taught through the centuries that those logistics corridors are subject to being easily cut off by the Chinese, Mongolians, Cossacks, various 'stans ... you name it.)

Invasion of the Baltics is a silly notion. Too much at at stake and no good ROI.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Whether or not Nuland and the bunch overthrow Russia, Putin and his bunch are going to turn NATO into a beast. Russia will dissolve. The stans are seeing Russia as inept.

Dugin's dream of Eurasianism will fail. NATO will engulf Russian western Oblasts. Putin hasn't long left. Lukashenko will turn on him like a cheesy 1990's Hollywood stereotype ex communist dictator. We are in monumental times.

That is a plausible scenario, depending upon who's in charge in both the EU/NATO and the US.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
They don't have much of anything except some marginally good ice-free ports on the Baltic Sea, but that's a great place to bottle up a fleet when one looks at the straits of Denmark. Russia - for all its immensity - is largely sensitive to its fleets being vulnerable to being isolated and picked off in both the Baltic and Black Seas. The places on their east coast such as the Sakhalin Islands are too far away from their Euro-centric population centers to have much of an impact on their logistics. (Plus they've been taught through the centuries that those logistics corridors are subject to being easily cut off by the Chinese, Mongolians, Cossacks, various 'stans ... you name it.)

Invasion of the Baltics is a silly notion. Too much at at stake and no good ROI.

"Invasion of the Baltics is a silly notion. Too much at at stake and no good ROI." And that was the general consensus about an invasion of Ukraine only a couple of months ago too.

Ice free ports and rail going inland from them.

view_europe_baltics.png


5326f5e5b7e41d00090870a6400b0e74.jpg


As to the Russians being bottled up in their corner of the Baltic, check out the British campaign in the Baltic from 1918 to 1919.

Baltic Naval War 1919 - Fire & Ice (but mostly ice, lots of ice)
RT 26:11
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhFlYw6lUsA&ab_channel=Drachinifel
 
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Walrus

Veteran Member
"Invasion of the Baltics is a silly notion. Too much at at stake and no good ROI." And that was the general consensus about an invasion of Ukraine only a couple of months ago too.

Ice free ports and rail going inland from them.

view_europe_baltics.png


5326f5e5b7e41d00090870a6400b0e74.jpg


As to the Russians being bottled up in their corner of the Baltic, check out the British campaign in the Baltic from 1918 to 1919.

Baltic Naval War 1919 - Fire & Ice (but mostly ice, lots of ice)
RT 26:11
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhFlYw6lUsA&ab_channel=Drachinifel
Don't you think there's just a tiny bit of difference between 1919 and nowadays? Fleets finding each other on the horizon pre-radar via smokestack emissions instead of satellites, real-time airstrikes and hypersonic shipkillers? Russia would be stupid to let their fleets get hemmed in like that. There'd be lots of scrap iron on the sea floor and to what end?

Baltics are NATO. It goes nuclear in a flash. Let's not do that.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Don't you think there's just a tiny bit of difference between 1919 and nowadays? Fleets finding each other on the horizon pre-radar via smokestack emissions instead of satellites, real-time airstrikes and hypersonic shipkillers? Russia would be stupid to let their fleets get hemmed in like that. There'd be lots of scrap iron on the sea floor and to what end?

Baltics are NATO. It goes nuclear in a flash. Let's not do that.

The technology available has definitely changed, but the geography and ambitions involved (call them the 7 deadly sins of geopolitics) have not.

Like I said and IIRC I posted here at TB2K, at worst I figured Putin would have formally annexed or offered membership into the Russian Federation of the eastern territories that had seceded and called it a day. I didn't think Putin would do what he did, the risk to reward ratio IMHO was just too high, and thus far that has been proven out by the outcomes thus far on the battlefield and on the geopolitical front.
 
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Mark D

Now running for Emperor.
The last month has proven that the Russian military can't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, let alone conduct multiple combat ops. The only threat the Baltics would have from the Russians, is where to store all of the captured military equipment.
 

Jeff B.

Don’t let the Piss Ants get you down…
The issue with the Baltics (Courland) is lack of depth for the defense. In WWII, towards the end, the Soviets cut off the German forces up there in the drive to Berlin. It’s conceivable that to a degree, we’d face a similar issue and be forced to effect a relief, which means fighting where and when the enemy expects you.

Jeff B.
 

mikeabn

Finally not a lurker!
The issue with the Baltics (Courland) is lack of depth for the defense. In WWII, towards the end, the Soviets cut off the German forces up there in the drive to Berlin. It’s conceivable that to a degree, we’d face a similar issue and be forced to effect a relief, which means fighting where and when the enemy expects you.

Jeff B.
Yes but the offensive into Ukraine has not exactly been a Blitzkrieg for the Russians.
 

Illini Warrior

Illini Warrior
of course Putin will have to invade the Baltics - then onto the Lapland - and then thrust south to attack the Czechs and finally into unaligned Austria >>> threatening NATO just like in the old USSR days

you have all those Soros run - NAZI GOV - Biden corrupt - queer riddled - countries that need Putin's "saving" - you Putin supporters better get buzy with the PR and BS propaganda to support The Leader's KGB immagination ....
 

Weps

Veteran Member
The last decade has proven that the American military can't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, let alone conduct multiple combat ops. The only threat the Middle East would have from the Americans, is where to store all of the abandoned military equipment.

For a force that cant fight it's way out of a wet paper bag, they are certainly in possession of quite a bit of Ukrainian territory and have rung the Ukrainian Grounds Forces bell rather thoroughly.

In reality, once the HEAVY pro-Ukie propaganda and media arrogance is scrapped away, this incursion is going no different for them than their incursion into Poland, Chechnya, Georgia, or Afghanistan... high vehicle losses, high casualties, highly constantly contested cities, ect...

As a matter of fact, the results are no different for the Russians than they have been for the US when we've engaged in protracted COIN and MOUT; be it Veitnam, Mogadishu, or Afghanistan.

It's going as well as can be expected for a conventional mechanized force to fight against insurgency in heavy urban terrain.
 
The last month has proven that the Russian military can't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, let alone conduct multiple combat ops. The only threat the Baltics would have from the Russians, is where to store all of the captured military equipment.
Yes but the offensive into Ukraine has not exactly been a Blitzkrieg for the Russians.

Per above bolded in the first comment, what are our thoughts as to the reason WHY Putin, et al, chose to engage The Ukraine via the Russian military?

And then the rest of southeast Asia will fall, like dominoes. Where have I heard this before?
Yup.

Related question - precisely WHY were the U.S. military and NATO forces in Vietnam? <mostly rhetorical, to focus our thinking upon the notion of hidden agendas>
you have all those Soros run - NAZI GOV - Biden corrupt - queer riddled - countries that need Putin's "saving" - you Putin supporters better get buzy with the PR and BS propaganda to support The Leader's KGB imagination ....
First question: what "message" are the MSM and other western mainline news/info/blog sources working overtime to promote, in order to focus our attention upon "their" narrative?

Second question: simultaneously, what are the MSM NOT discussing, or are harshly criticizing as nonsense?

Carry on.


intothegoodnight
 

raven

TB Fanatic
Do you remember how people talk about the concept that "Trump" is living rent free in the minds of Democrats even a year after he was deposed?

Yea, it is like that. "The Russian threat" and "Putin" are living rent free in your heads out there by the Democrats/WEF.
Putin is living rent free in your head. Rearranging the furniture. Eating all your food. Burning all your gasoline. Spending all your money. And then, yea, he shits on your sofa and demands you buy some wobbly, build it yourself, POS, uncomfortable wooden torture rack to replace it.

And no, I am not going to tell you what to do about it because you are enthralled in the psyop and it is unlikely you want to escape.
 

Teeja

On the Beach
If Finland or Sweden plans on joining NATO this summer, I could easily see Putin invading BEFORE they obtain NATO membership. Because once they’re in NATO, Article 5 applies and any invasion would trigger a NATO response. Invading sooner is far less risky for the Russians.
 

db cooper

Resident Secret Squirrel
If Finland or Sweden plans on joining NATO this summer, I could easily see Putin invading BEFORE they obtain NATO membership. Because once they’re in NATO, Article 5 applies and any invasion would trigger a NATO response. Invading sooner is far less risky for the Russians.
Interesting thought indeed, as it makes more sense than going after the Baltics. But in reality, we are all just speculating. I just can't get into this Russia, Russia, Russia thing.

I'm more concerned with what our regime will do next to destroy our own country. I do have compassion for true victims, being the general Ukraine population, but that is their problem, not ours. I believe Russia should not go beyond the Ukraine, if it does, that's the EU's issue. Let them take the lead.

Pull our troops out of NATO and put them on the Mexican border. We are heading for multiple civil wars in conjunction with WWIII. I do not like that one little bit.
 

stop tyranny

Veteran Member
Nothing like a little more globalist propaganda to fill a supposedly conservative forum. If you love true nazis, socialist puppet governments installed by our state department, government corruption, the soros foundation, and globalism by all means keep supporting ukraine. Anyone with common sense should know when the same media that lied about the election fraud, lied about the china virus, lied about the fake vax, demonized the white race, demonized anyone who supported Trump, and lit the fuses that resulted in American cities being burned down, then gets behind ukraine that we are being played. Not to mention every socialist, communist, and globalist talking head and politician repeats the same lies. Then it must NOT be in Americas best interest to back ukraine. But that's ok the anti-American, freedom hating, globalists can always use another useful idiot to help their cause.
 

Raggedyman

Res ipsa loquitur
And then the rest of southeast Asia will fall, like dominoes. Where have I heard this before?


indeed . . .
lemme see here - sumpin' about a little yello man . . . stopping COMMUNISM before it ARRIVED HERE - in AMERIKKA . . .
look at how well that bullshit werked out for us
 

Mark D

Now running for Emperor.
For a force that cant fight it's way out of a wet paper bag, they are certainly in possession of quite a bit of Ukrainian territory and have rung the Ukrainian Grounds Forces bell rather thoroughly.
They are in possession of some roadways and a few towns; the rest of Ukraine is genuine "Indian Country" for them.

They have lost hundreds of tanks, hundreds of armored vehicles, hundreds of trucks, dozens of aircraft, and have multiple, multiple, multiple BCT's that have been rendered combat ineffective. The Russian military has well-and-truly reached the point of "the Juice not being worth the squeeze" with the Ukrainian invasion.

Were they facing a truly modern military, there wouldn't BE a Russian Army anymore.
 

raven

TB Fanatic
If Russia wins in Ukraine . . . their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years, like Iraq.
If Russia loses in Ukraine . . . their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years, like Afghanistan.
If it is a draw, their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years.

In the big scheme of things, at this moment in time, Russia is out of play in "the big scheme of things".
The question is whether the US is also going to "be out of the big scheme of things" with relation to China.
 

Hawkgirl_70

Veteran Member
If Russia wins in Ukraine . . . their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years, like Iraq.
If Russia loses in Ukraine . . . their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years, like Afghanistan.
If it is a draw, their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years.

In the big scheme of things, at this moment in time, Russia is out of play in "the big scheme of things".
The question is whether the US is also going to "be out of the big scheme of things" with relation to China.
The only way I can see Russia attacking any additional country is with a mass Ballistic Missile launch.
They would never succeed with airstrikes on NATO Countries because they'd see it coming and scramble to intercept and destroy them.
I think Russia is stuck in the mud but to proud to retreat.
So this will likely end in a draw. Russia will keep the land they've seized and stay armed and ready at those new borders.
 

raven

TB Fanatic
The only way I can see Russia attacking any additional country is with a mass Ballistic Missile launch.
They would never succeed with airstrikes on NATO Countries because they'd see it coming and scramble to intercept and destroy them.
I think Russia is stuck in the mud but to proud to retreat.
So this will likely end in a draw. Russia will keep the land they've seized and stay armed and ready at those new borders.
nope.
Biden is going to force the nuclear option.
count on it.
 

Disciple

Veteran Member
If the Russians agree their Army is outclassed by NATO they will change strategy to nukes and weapons of mass destruction.
 

db cooper

Resident Secret Squirrel
Anyone with common sense should know when the same media that lied about the election fraud, lied about the china virus, lied about the fake vax, demonized the white race, demonized anyone who supported Trump, and lit the fuses that resulted in American cities being burned down, then gets behind ukraine that we are being played.
Exactly! Precisely! I've been preaching the same. If there is an entity that does nothing but lie,lie, lie, why should they suddenly start telling the truth? It will never happen.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
If Russia wins in Ukraine . . . their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years, like Iraq.
If Russia loses in Ukraine . . . their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years, like Afghanistan.
If it is a draw, their military and tanks are going to be tied up in Ukraine for 10 years.

In the big scheme of things, at this moment in time, Russia is out of play in "the big scheme of things".
The question is whether the US is also going to "be out of the big scheme of things" with relation to China.

As long as they have ICBMs and oil to sell they are IMHO still in the big scheme of things.
 

Weps

Veteran Member
They are in possession of some roadways and a few towns; the rest of Ukraine is genuine "Indian Country" for them.

They have lost hundreds of tanks, hundreds of armored vehicles, hundreds of trucks, dozens of aircraft, and have multiple, multiple, multiple BCT's that have been rendered combat ineffective. The Russian military has well-and-truly reached the point of "the Juice not being worth the squeeze" with the Ukrainian invasion.

Were they facing a truly modern military, there wouldn't BE a Russian Army anymore.

Sounds like Veitnam/Afghanistan/Chechnya/Etc.... or what's played out in every major threater-level exercise pitting insurgent forces against a highly mechanized force.

Based on that assessment and our preformance in Afghanistan; if the US Military were to face a peer or near-peer, there would be no US Military.

Was the juice worth the squeeze with our invasion and occupation of Afghanistan?

Do you feel the US could engage with a peer or near-peer in it's current state?
 

ainitfunny

Saved, to glorify God.
Well, I got a call from my neice ( in her early 50's) and she's as crazy as ever.
I asked her what she thought about Ukraine,
SHE SAID THAT UKRAINE WAR IS ALL FAKE, COMPUTER ANIMATION, NO BODIES, NO BUILDINGS DESTROYED, NO REFUGEES, ALL FAKED TO GET A POLITICAL AGENDA ADVANCED.

I Quickly told her I had to be somewhere and ended the conversation, after she insisted the BBC, DW German TV, Agence France press, Italian news, Fox news, CNN, Israel News, and JAPAN News (NHK) had reporters implanted in Ukraine and Poland and were NOT showing the same videos as the other news outlets each one was different. She still believed it Fake.
So i did what i do with other crazy people, leave them to their fantasies.
 
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