SOFT NEWS Embattled West Pa. Amish sect moving to upstate NY

Suzieq

Veteran Member
By JOE MANDAK
Associated Press
November 24, 2012

NICKTOWN, Pa. (AP) — Levi Zook doesn’t want to move his wife and eight children from the Laurel Highlands of western Pennsylvania to New York state but strongly believes he has no choice.

That’s because the 34-year-old farmer and the Andy Weaver Swartzentruber Amish congregation to which he belongs — the most conservative branch of the most conservative sect of Amish — concluded they have no future on the scenic plateau of Barr Township, some 70 miles east of Pittsburgh.

Zook chose his words carefully when asked what prompted the 21-family congregation to begin moving away this year. Zook and the remaining families figure to be gone by spring, he explained, pausing to rein in his horse as he chatted with a reporter standing next to his buggy.

‘‘Well, the sum of it is, the issue as far as moving out, I guess, it started off with the sewage issue.’’

That issue erupted in 2008, when some non-Amish neighbors complained that two Swartzentruber families were emptying outhouse buckets at the edge of their farms. The neighbors rightly feared typhoid or cholera in their well water, said William Barbin, an attorney for the Cambria County Sewage Enforcement Agency.

The sewage dispute eventually led to citations, a court order to padlock the clan’s school, and even sent one member to the county jail for three months because he refused to pay fines for state and county sewage violations.

Although many less conservative Amish congregations co-exist with their non-Amish neighbors, the Swartzentruber and other more conservative sects have a history of civil battles when building codes and other laws conflict with their rigid rules for maintaining simple homes.

The fight dragged on for years. Finally, in the summer of 2011, Swartzentruber bishops from Ohio and New York came to meet with the local bishop, county officials and the state Department of Environmental Protection. The Swartzentruber families agreed to build an underground tank where the outhouse buckets would be emptied and pumped out by a state-licensed firm using more primitive methods in keeping with Amish beliefs.

But the sewage tank has never been used.

Instead, the Swartzentrubers began making plans to move, spurred by increasing land values driven by the Marcellus Shale natural gas drilling boom, and concerns, Zook said, that the DEP was also requiring them to use more expensive sand mounds to filter their ‘‘gray water’’ — sewage from bathtubs and sinks, not toilets — instead of cheaper leach fields. The DEP declined to comment for this story.

‘‘We try to be as simple and humble as we can. We don’t have the money to reach around like a lot of people do,’’ Zook said, using an Amish idiom that equates to making ends meet.

The Pennsylvania group is moving to St. Lawrence County in upstate New York, where some lived before moving to Pennsylvania in the late 1990s, though others may go to Maine or a newer settlement south of Buffalo, N.Y., said Professor Karen Johnson-Weiner, an Amish expert at the State University of New York-Potsdam.

More: http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...ing-upstate/e7IpresDcFdmw32KRf7lUN/story.html
 
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geoffs

Veteran Member
Last year I was up north of Syracuse in Sandy Creek clearing out an uncles house. I was relly suprised when I went to town and saw several horse drawn carriages tied up outside the shops. I realized right away they were Amish and spoke to a few only to find out they had quite a few up there. I give them credit it must be a hard life there right off Lake Ontario with no electric as they get lots of snow and it gets really cold.
 

jed turtle

a brother in the Lord
Last year I was up north of Syracuse in Sandy Creek clearing out an uncles house. I was relly suprised when I went to town and saw several horse drawn carriages tied up outside the shops. I realized right away they were Amish and spoke to a few only to find out they had quite a few up there. I give them credit it must be a hard life there right off Lake Ontario with no electric as they get lots of snow and it gets really cold.

most can't picture it, but virtually the ENTIRE FRIGGIN' COUNTRY didn't have electricity about a hundred years ago...
no big deal then. people knew how to live as their ancestors had lived for thousands of years. chop wood, haul water, tend the garden and livestock. milk the cow. that was back when people prayed to God like they meant it, because there was no backup plan.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
Never seen any problems with an outhouse that used a big wooden box and when full its just dragged out and turned over and contents allowed to compost. The State is making problems by creating laws that require pits built out of cement that needs to be pumped out. The fools inside the government don't understand natural systems.
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
Never seen any problems with an outhouse that used a big wooden box and when full its just dragged out and turned over and contents allowed to compost. The State is making problems by creating laws that require pits built out of cement that needs to be pumped out. The fools inside the government don't understand natural systems.

OR, the State is beginning to crack down on everyone for the sake of exerting control. You know they were gonna go after the Amish sooner or later.
 

Be Well

may all be well
All they need to do is build composting outhouses, no dumping buckets needed. Of course the gov probably wouldn't like that kind, either.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Interestingly enough St Lawrence County is rapidly becoming an Amish Center.

One of the reason is that the soil is SO dam poor (and not that thick) that English farming methods are, pretty much, useless there. You can regularly see horse drawn stone sledges in use very much like they were 200 yrs ago in Eastern New England.

St Lawrence County is also pretty much the coldest county in the State, though snowfall isn't all THAT bad (IIRC 15 ft is a decent winter season, 10 is light and 20 is interesting).
The county has a number of colleges and universities too.

It's also where the state keeps all its French Hillbillies....and Hockey Pucks....and a few Indians....(feather not dot)

Not a surprise destination,,,,what I expected before I opened the thread.
 

Suzieq

Veteran Member
most can't picture it, but virtually the ENTIRE FRIGGIN' COUNTRY didn't have electricity about a hundred years ago...
no big deal then. people knew how to live as their ancestors had lived for thousands of years. chop wood, haul water, tend the garden and livestock. milk the cow. that was back when people prayed to God like they meant it, because there was no backup plan.
I agree with you! People have got to refined and cultured now. They also have become lazy in today's world and depend on someone else to get the work done.
 

Dobbin

Faithful Steed
Wot about the "Humanure Handbook?" I've read it. A lot of munipalities have accepted their methodology as a viable alternate to formal septic or sewer - although the methodology is certainly "self enforced."

More I think about this, more I think this is simply POWER. State can't enforce fastidiousness, and fear for the consequences to "the group" by non-performance (or that their excuse), so instead they try to enforce through infrastructure.

"If we build a septic they will come" attitude. Septic IS easier - but more importantly for the state, once built it requires little in the way of upkeep. Well, running water, gravity movement to the leach field, periodid pumping of solids from the septic tank (which are usually composted and become plant nutrient - huh - fancy that thought?) Um. Also co-mingling of waste between the "English" and the Amish. Is that verboten too?

Humans should try to get closer to nature. State wants to keep you from that.

Tell the State where to put it.

Dobbin
 

Bubble Head

Has No Life - Lives on TB
We didn't get electricity until the mid 50's. I milked one cow when the kids were little. A brown swiss that really gave the cream. Lots of cottage cheese and butter. Had chickens. I hate to milk and I don't have chickens but they may change on the chicken part. Hate plucking. I love electricity and the indoor plumbing. There is a lot to be said for that indoor toliet when the January blizzard is on and you have the flu. That said Be Well is right about outhouse composting. Works just fine if thats what you want. The Amish around here can have electricity if they rent the house but not if they own it. I just can't figure out the rules. I do know I still heat with wood and went to great lengths in my preps to not be without electricty.
 

Bubble Head

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Wot about the "Humanure Handbook?" I've read it. A lot of munipalities have accepted their methodology as a viable alternate to formal septic or sewer - although the methodology is certainly "self enforced."

More I think about this, more I think this is simply POWER. State can't enforce fastidiousness, and fear for the consequences to "the group" by non-performance (or that their excuse), so instead they try to enforce through infrastructure.

"If we build a septic they will come" attitude. Septic IS easier - but more importantly for the state, once built it requires little in the way of upkeep. Well, running water, gravity movement to the leach field, periodid pumping of solids from the septic tank (which are usually composted and become plant nutrient - huh - fancy that thought?) Um. Also co-mingling of waste between the "English" and the Amish. Is that verboten too?

Humans should try to get closer to nature. State wants to keep you from that.

Tell the State where to put it.

Dobbin

Joe you sure got that right.

If I would have listened to my horse and my dog I would have been a better person.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Certainly, a lot of this is about power. But... having lived in one of the most restrictive Amish communities in the world for the past 34 years, I can tell you that NO ONE can be more obstinate and troublesome than a Dutchman (their term... not meant to be derogatory) who thinks he should be allowed to do something HIS WAY.

And often, they're their own worst enemies- such as seems to be the case IF these folks (and it wouldn't surprise me one bit) were dumping raw human sewage on the property line. BTDT- not with sewage, but with them dragging dead animals ACROSS THE ROAD onto our farm, so they wouldn't have to smell them as they rotted!!

And then there was the extra clever Amish man who created a 'self flushing outhouse'- by setting it up over a flowing spring!! Raw human feces in the roadside ditch... wonderful!

Most of them around here have dug outhouses, just like in the old days... they sprinkle wood ashes or lime in the pit and it simply rots away over the years.

(the other problem is, while their education is in SOME ways superior to the public schools, they have very little science education at all. That means that disease causing bacteria, etc, really aren't on their radar. I went head-banging- against-the-wall crazy one day trying to explain to an Amish neighbor why his sky-high bacteria count in his milk really DIDN'T make cheesemaking easier (or even possible!) "but, you need bacteria to make cheese!"... well, yeah. But not e.coli!!)

This leads to interesting practices like piling fairly fresh manure all around their well head- to keep it from freezing! Truly, it's a wonder more of them aren't deathly ill a lot of the time..

Summerthyme
 
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Ice

Inactive
In 1990 I had Amish people build my house on the St. Regis River in the St. Laurence
County and they really work well. They were using electric tools that I furnished since
I had the electricity. Its not long after that I had heard they had all moved to Pennsylvania.

Some people will be glad to have them back. You could always purchase nice fresh
vegetables from them and also fresh homemade bread and cakes.
 

Suzieq

Veteran Member
most aamish spread their outhouse stuff on their fields, around here.
I'm not sure about them spreading outhouse stuff on fields, but they sure did spread cow manure from the barn.

When I was young, when our outhouse got full, they just moved the outhouse to a new location with a newly dug hole in the ground.
 

Bubble Head

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I just don't understand the sect. Around here they all use cell phones and a lot drive 4wheelers around. But yet they all go to town in the buggy or have someone drive them around. Summerthyme has a lot of good points. You can live as you wish but health issues are a different story. Not much room to bend the rules or you get sick.
 
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WalknTrot

Veteran Member
Ya, I kinda don't get some of the Amish.

My family, both sets of Grandparents never had indoor plumbing when I was a kid, and my parents were raised without it. Outhouses were always built at least 100 feet from the house and well, over a deep hole, if and when the hole ever got close to being full, the outhouse was dragged to a new spot, and the old hole filled in with dirt. Easy peasy...clean and simple. Goodness, when I was a kid, a lot of my neighbors, and even our church, had an outhouse...no indoor plumbing. And most folks up here still have them at their cabins and deer shacks. There is a correct and sanitary way to do it.

But I've been in Amish houses where the outhouse was attached to the danged house...there is NO WAY to ever move it, and apparently no intention to ever cover and start fresh. And yes, it reeked. Didn't even want to THINK about the fly situation in the summer. Yuck. Not too bright..especially for a bunch of supposedly fastidious Germans. (My family is German, so I can make these remarks. :) )

If these guys were dumping their pots on the ground every day...well...they would be welcome by me to relocate as well.
 

Wildweasel

F-4 Phantoms Phorever
I figured that the high land prices that the natural gas boom has brought would see the Amish leaving our area pretty soon. With 100 acres bringing $3.5 million these days, the Amish who may have bought for $500/acre can afford to move anywhere.

But I would have expected that they'd head out to the midwest to someplace like Iowa, Missouri or Kansas. Not north to an area with a shorted growing season, poor soil and terrible winters.

WW
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
But I would have expected that they'd head out to the midwest to someplace like Iowa, Missouri or Kansas. Not north to an area with a shorted growing season, poor soil and terrible winters.

WW

And THAT ladies and gents is the SHORT version of St. Lawrence County, NY.
 

momof23goats

Deceased
Never seen any problems with an outhouse that used a big wooden box and when full its just dragged out and turned over and contents allowed to compost. The State is making problems by creating laws that require pits built out of cement that needs to be pumped out. The fools inside the government don't understand natural systems.

wonder what the gov thinnks the guys that empty yor septic tank put it? usually one some ones field, shocked don't be.
 

momof23goats

Deceased
I'm not sure about them spreading outhouse stuff on fields, but they sure did spread cow manure from the barn.

When I was young, when our outhouse got full, they just moved the outhouse to a new location with a newly dug hole in the ground.

yup thats what we did and others I know too, but not here, they build a bathroom, or an out house type, attached to the back of the house, then they have to dig it out a couple of times a year. yup it goes on the fields.

when we had an out house, it was way back probably 50 to 100 ft from the house, and on the opposite side of the land, from the well.

all farmers spread manure. we do as well.
 

momof23goats

Deceased
Last year I was up north of Syracuse in Sandy Creek clearing out an uncles house. I was relly suprised when I went to town and saw several horse drawn carriages tied up outside the shops. I realized right away they were Amish and spoke to a few only to find out they had quite a few up there. I give them credit it must be a hard life there right off Lake Ontario with no electric as they get lots of snow and it gets really cold.

thats silly, they live fine, they can up their food from their gardens, and their meats, [some do have freezers], they have wood stoves, and their homes are most likely warmer than those that heat with gas.
you don't need electric to stay warm. why I even have a fan that runs with out the electric, for my wood stove.
 

Suzieq

Veteran Member
I figured that the high land prices that the natural gas boom has brought would see the Amish leaving our area pretty soon. With 100 acres bringing $3.5 million these days, the Amish who may have bought for $500/acre can afford to move anywhere.

But I would have expected that they'd head out to the midwest to someplace like Iowa, Missouri or Kansas. Not north to an area with a shorted growing season, poor soil and terrible winters.

WW
Wildweaseal I was thinking the same thing. Why don't they go out west where land is cheaper and less government rules.
 

momof23goats

Deceased
I think because they want to stay close to family. family means a great deal to the amish. my dh's grandmother was amish. she raised 8 children amish. but when My dh's father and brothers came back from ww2, they did not join the church, and did not raise their children amish. but they have more amish aunts, uncles and cousins, then you would think possible.

they are very old order. they do not use any kind of modern anything, in the fields, or in the home. His grandparents miked 40 to 50 head of cows 2x's a day. they tended the fields, raised crops, and it was all done by hand. even the son's that returned from ww2, when working at their parents farm, used the old ways.

my father in law, bought his mother a new gas range for her kitchen, when he went back a week later, she had a sign on it, and it was in the front yard. her wood cookstove was back in her kitchen.
today that order still lives just like when his grandparents were alive. nothing modern, not even a ginnie to run the well. every thing is done by hand.
 

TerryK

TB Fanatic
wonder what the gov thinnks the guys that empty yor septic tank put it? usually one some ones field, shocked don't be.

Ever watched Dirty Jobs? They showed what happens to the contents of the septic tank pumper truck. They take it back to a rural area and spread it out on a large concrete area, where it stinks and eventually dries and decomposes. Then it is safe to dispose of or as many do, sold to fertilizer companies.

Everybody idolizes the Amish. They do strive to lead a simple life, but that has both advantages and disadvantages. One of the disadvantages is that they only get a very limited grade school education and don't really comprehend many things that could be health hazards. They also don't have any lock on moral and honest behavior. They have good and bad apples, just like any society.

By the way, I think the TV program Breaking Amish has done a lot to hurt their image.
 
Ah yes--then there is the Amish bake goods--Martha is making bread, donuts, pies, or what ever---the baby needs it's diaper changed--that done, the hands are wiped off on her apron and Martha goes back to making the pies or what ever. I've lived and worked with these people for 70 years---the only true thing I can tell you about them is that they are like everyone else--there are good ones and there are bad ones. If you are not Amish--you are English--and you are viewed not as an equal and can be expected to be treated differently. I also is not fun to have to compete against the Amish, who get to live under different requirements, ie. social security, Obamacare, etc., etc......We are primarily in the greenhouse end of things and it has gotten very interesting---but that's ok--they are colorful--I guess---you can say it's sour grapes or whtever--but I'm "juist saying"---by the way, I do have some very good Amish friends, for what it's worth.
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
As far as why they don't move out to Ohio, etc... mostly because of land prices! The whole Amish paradigm is changing rapidly... when we moved here 34 years ago, almost every one of them had a small dairy farm. Now, I'm guessing less than 10% sell milk- the rest have a variety of small cottage industry businesses.

Land in northern NY is very cheap compared to the good "corn ground" in the midwest. Of course, it's "cheap" for a reason- it's not worth much for farming. Counties up near the St Lawrence were actually offering subsidies to people who would move in and start up some of the abandoned dairy farms again, but it's a rough climate for dairying, and I don't think they got a lot of response.

Summerthyme
 

SquonkHunter

Geezer (ret.)
....Not too bright..especially for a bunch of supposedly fastidious Germans. (My family is German, so I can make these remarks. :) )
Same here. Both of my Grannies would wear out a broom in no time at all. If they weren't in the kitchen creating some heavenly delights, they had a broom in their hands. Alles ist einordnung, ja?

Oops. Messed up the quote function. :confused:
 

Anrol5

Inactive
That issue erupted in 2008, when some non-Amish neighbors complained that two Swartzentruber families were emptying outhouse buckets at the edge of their farms. The neighbors rightly feared typhoid or cholera in their well water, said William Barbin, an attorney for the Cambria County Sewage Enforcement Agency.

If someone was emptying buckets of human waste close to my land, I would be a bit upset. There are ways of dealing with human waste, that would not cause problems, but do the Swartzentruber have the ability to learn about them?

I figured that the high land prices that the natural gas boom has brought would see the Amish leaving our area pretty soon. With 100 acres bringing $3.5 million these days, the Amish who may have bought for $500/acre can afford to move anywhere.

But I would have expected that they'd head out to the midwest to someplace like Iowa, Missouri or Kansas. Not north to an area with a shorted growing season, poor soil and terrible winters. WW

Wildweasel, you have the ability to look on the internet, to look at land prices, regulations etc. Yes there are other alternatives the Amish could use, but.... The Amish only educate their children to 14.

Many of critical thinking skills needed to handle this kind of step shift change in their lives, will not be taught till later. Perhaps not even till college. Also, religious education, IMO, seems to be about doing things the *one* right way. Discussing alternative ways of doing things, or thinking about alternatives, is actively discouraged, and more often than not punished. The attitude seems to be, "we do things the way our parents did, who did it the way their parents did....." and so on.

In this situation, someone needs to come up with a radical, *new* innovative way of doing things. I suspect not a strong Swartzentruber trait!

As to outhouse, there is loads of stuff on composting toilets on the internet, some of which can be built by people with woodworking skills. Some, IMO, can be built up against a house, and not be moved, but still provide safe disposal of human waste. I know the Swartzentruber will not be accessing the internet, but they could use printoffs, books, etc. given to them by others, but then the Swartzentruber, tend to discourage interaction with outsiders. Unfortunately, I think, it is back to, "Do the Swartzentruber think in such a way that allows them to consider alternatives?"

As to going to St. Lawrence County in upstate New York, there could be many reasons. The two I will pick are. Other Amish have moved there, and we all like to be with people who are like us. It is a comforting place to be. I also think we are back to "Have the Swartzentruber considered the alternatives?" Or has Someone suggested a "solution", and everyone is following along like a bunch of sheep. What would happen to someone who suggested that there may be another way of doing things? Shunned?

And would they have to move in the first place, if the Swartzentruber did things in a different way? No I am not suggesting they abandon their traditional way of life, just do things differently. For example, composting toilets, can be built by someone who has woodworking skills. Small changes, that allow both sides to live the way they want to, without causing problems to the other side.

Wildweaseal I was thinking the same thing. Why don't they go out west where land is cheaper and less government rules.

Perhaps because they can't or won’t consider alternatives.

Yes there are some great traits the Amish have, hard work, close family ties, etc., but I think, they also have some traits, that create problems for themselves?

Anrol
 

Palmetto

Son, Husband, Father
I am pretty familiar with the Laurel Highlands area.

I would estimate that 95% of the people who own land DON'T have mineral rights. They were sold 100+ years ago.

On the other hand, the local municipalities and counties give the Gestapo a bad name. Regulation is rife and everywhere.

Palmetto
 
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