Orlov on the Five Stages of Collapse

Alan2012

Inactive
Here, Dmitri Orlov writes about what he calls the five stages of collapse.

Orlov, you may recall, is the author of the classic must-read (must-STUDY)
"collapse gap" document:

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=221239
The Collapse Gap: How the USSR was BETTER PREPARED for Collapse than U.S.

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=220104
Closing the Collapse Gap

......................

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/five-stages-of-collapse.html

Friday, February 22, 2008

The Five Stages of Collapse

Elizabeth Kübler-Ross defined the five stages of coming to terms with grief and tragedy as denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, and applied it quite successfully to various forms of catastrophic personal loss, such as death of a loved one, sudden end to one's career, and so forth. Several thinkers, notably James Howard Kunstler and, more recently John Michael Greer, have pointed out that the Kübler-Ross model is also quite terrifyingly accurate in reflecting the process by which society as a whole (or at least the informed and thinking parts of it) is reconciling itself to the inevitability of a discontinuous future, with our institutions and life support systems undermined by a combination of resource depletion, catastrophic climate change, and political impotence. But so far, little has been said specifically about the finer structure of these discontinuities. Instead, there is to be found continuum of subjective judgments, ranging from "a severe and prolonged recession" (the prediction we most often read in the financial press), to Kunstler's evocative but unscientific-sounding "cluster****," to the ever-popular "Collapse of Western Civilization," painted with an ever-wider brush-stroke.

For those of us who have already gone through all of the emotional stages of reconciling ourselves to the prospect of social and economic upheaval, it might be helpful to have a more precise terminology that goes beyond such emotionally charged phrases. Defining a taxonomy of collapses might prove to be more than just an intellectual exercise: based on our abilities and circumstances, some of us may be able to specifically plan for a certain stage of collapse as a temporary, or even permanent, stopping point. Even if society at the current stage of socioeconomic complexity will no longer be possible, and even if, as Tainter points in his "Collapse of Complex Societies," there are circumstances in which collapse happens to be the correct adaptive response, it need not automatically cause a population crash, with the survivors disbanding into solitary, feral humans dispersed in the wilderness and subsisting miserably. Collapse can be conceived of as an orderly, organized retreat rather than a rout.

For instance, the collapse of the Soviet Union - our most recent and my personal favorite example of an imperial collapse - did not reach the point of political disintegration of the republics that made it up, although some of them (Georgia, Moldova) did lose some territory to separatist movements. And although most of the economy shut down for a time, many institutions, including the military, public utilities, and public transportation, continued to function throughout. And although there was much social dislocation and suffering, society as a whole did not collapse, because most of the population did not lose access to food, housing, medicine, or any of the other survival necessities. The command-and-control structure of the Soviet economy largely decoupled the necessities of daily life from any element of market psychology, associating them instead with physical flows of energy and physical access to resources. Thus situation, as I argue in my forthcoming book, Reinventing Collapse, allowed the Soviet population to inadvertently achieve a greater level of collapse-preparedness than is currently possible in the United States.

Having given a lot of thought to both the differences and the similarities between the two superpowers - the one that has collapsed already, and the one that is collapsing as I write this - I feel ready to attempt a bold conjecture, and define five stages of collapse, to serve as mental milestones as we gauge our own collapse-preparedness and see what can be done to improve it. Rather than tying each phase to a particular emotion, as in the Kübler-Ross model, the proposed taxonomy ties each of the five collapse stages to the breaching of a specific level of trust, or faith, in the status quo. Although each stage causes physical, observable changes in the environment, these can be gradual, while the mental flip is generally quite swift. It is something of a cultural universal that nobody (but a real fool) wants to be the last fool to believe in a lie.

Stages of Collapse

Stage 1: Financial collapse. Faith in "business as usual" is lost. The future is no longer assumed resemble the past in any way that allows risk to be assessed and financial assets to be guaranteed. Financial institutions become insolvent; savings are wiped out, and access to capital is lost.

Stage 2: Commercial collapse. Faith that "the market shall provide" is lost. Money is devalued and/or becomes scarce, commodities are hoarded, import and retail chains break down, and widespread shortages of survival necessities become the norm.

Stage 3: Political collapse. Faith that "the government will take care of you" is lost. As official attempts to mitigate widespread loss of access to commercial sources of survival necessities fail to make a difference, the political establishment loses legitimacy and relevance.

Stage 4: Social collapse. Faith that "your people will take care of you" is lost. As local social institutions, be they charities, community leaders, or other groups that rush in to fill the power vacuum, run out of resources or fail through internal conflict.

Stage 5: Cultural collapse. Faith in the goodness of humanity is lost. People lose their capacity for "kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity" (Turnbull, The Mountain People). Families disband and compete as individuals for scarce resources. The new motto becomes "May you die today so that I die tomorrow" (Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago). There may even be some cannibalism.

Although many people imagine collapse to be a sort of elevator that goes to the sub-basement (our Stage 5) no matter which button you push, no such automatic mechanism can be discerned. Rather, driving us all to Stage 5 will require that a concerted effort be made at each of the intervening stages. That all the players seem poised to make just such an effort may give this collapse the form a classical tragedy - a conscious but inexorable march to perdition - rather than a farce ("Oops! Ah, here we are, Stage 5." - "So, whom do we eat first?" - "Me! I am delicious!") Let us sketch out this process.

Financial collapse, as we are are currently observing it, consists of two parts. One is that a part of the general population is forced to move, no longer able to afford the house they bought based on inflated assessments, forged income numbers, and foolish expectations of endless asset inflation. Since, technically, they should never have been allowed to buy these houses, and were only able to do so because of financial and political malfeasance, this is actually a healthy development. The second part consists of men in expensive suits tossing bundles of suddenly worthless paper up in the air, ripping out their remaining hair, and (some of us might uncharitably hope) setting themselves on fire on the steps of the Federal Reserve. They, to express it in their own vernacular, "****ed up," and so this is also just as it should be.

The government response to this could be to offer some helpful homilies about "the wages of sin" and to open a few soup kitchens and flop houses in a variety of locations including Wall Street. The message would be: "You former debt addicts and gamblers, as you say, '****ed up,' and so this will really hurt for a long time. We will never let you anywhere near big money again. Get yourselves over to the soup kitchen, and bring your own bowl, because we don't do dishes." This would result in a stable Stage 1 collapse - the Second Great Depression.

However, this is unlikely, because in the US the government happens to be debt addict and gambler number one. As individuals, we may have been as virtuous as we wished, but the government will have still run up exorbitant debts on our behalf. Every level of government, from local municipalities and authorities, which need the financial markets to finance their public works and public services, to the federal government, which relies on foreign investment to finance its endless wars, is addicted to public debt. They know they cannot stop borrowing, and so they will do anything they can to keep the game going for as long as possible.

About the only thing the government currently seems it fit to do is extend further credit to those in trouble, by setting interest rates at far below inflation, by accepting worthless bits of paper as collateral and by pumping money into insolvent financial institutions. This has the effect of diluting the dollar, further undermining its value, and will, in due course, lead to hyperinflation, which is bad enough in any economy, but is especially serious for one dominated by imports. As imports dry up and the associated parts of the economy shut down, we pass Stage 2: Commercial Collapse.

As businesses shut down, storefronts are boarded up and the population is left largely penniless and dependent on FEMA and charity for survival, the government may consider what to do next. It could, for example, repatriate all foreign troops and set them to work on public works projects designed to directly help the population. It could promote local economic self-sufficiency, by establishing community-supported agriculture programs, erecting renewable energy systems, and organizing and training local self-defence forces to maintain law and order. The Army Corps of Engineers could be ordered to bulldoze buildings erected on former farmland around city centers, return the land to cultivation, and to construct high-density solar-heated housing in urban centers to resettle those who are displaced. In the interim, it could reduce homelessness by imposing a steep tax on vacant residential properties and funneling the proceeds into rent subsidies for the indigent. With plenty of luck, such measures may be able to reverse the trend, eventually providing for a restoration of pre-Stage 2 conditions.

This may or may not be a good plan, but in any case it is rather unrealistic, because the United States, being so deeply in debt, will be forced to accede to the wishes of its foreign creditors, who own a lot of national assets (land, buildings, and businesses) and who would rather see a dependent American population slaving away working off their debt than a self-sufficient one, conveniently forgetting that they have mortgaged their children's futures to pay for military fiascos, big houses, big cars, and flat-screen television sets. Thus, a much more likely scenario is that the federal government (knowing who butters their bread) will remain subservient to foreign financial interests. It will impose austerity conditions, maintain law and order through draconian means, and aide in the construction of foreign-owned factory towns and plantations. As people start to think that having a government may not be such a good idea, conditions become ripe for Stage 3.

If Stage 1 collapse can be observed by watching television, observing Stage 2 might require a hike or a bicycle ride to the nearest population center, while Stage 3 collapse is more than likely to be visible directly through one's own living-room window, which may or may not still have glass in it. After a significant amount of bloodletting, much of the country becomes a no-go zone for the remaining authorities. Foreign creditors decide that their debts might not be repaid after all, cut their losses and depart in haste. The rest of the world decides to act as if there is no such place as The United States - because "nobody goes there any more." So as not to lose out on the entertainment value, the foreign press still prints sporadic fables about Americans who eat their young, much as they did about Russia following the Soviet collapse. A few brave American expatriates who still come back to visit bring back amazing stories of a different kind, but everyone considers them eccentric and perhaps a little bit crazy.

Stage 3 collapse can sometimes be avoided by the timely introduction of international peacekeepers and through the efforts of international humanitarian NGOs. In the aftermath of a Stage 2 collapse, domestic authorities are highly unlikely to have either the resources or the legitimacy, or even the will, to arrest the collapse dynamic and reconstitute themselves in a way that the population would accept.

As stage 3 collapse runs its course, the power vacuum left by the now defunct fedral, state and local government is filled by a variety of new power structures. Remnants of former law enforcement and military, urban gangs, ethnic mafias, religious cults and wealthy property owners all attempt to build their little empires on the ruins of the big one, fighting each other over territory and access to resources. This is the age of Big Men: charismatic leaders, rabble-rousers, ruthless Macchiavelian princes and war lords. In the luckier places, they find it to their common advantage to pool their resources and amalgamate into some sort of legitimate local government, while in the rest their jostling for power leads to a spiral of conflict and open war.

Stage 4 collapse occurs when society becomes so disordered and impoverished that it can no longer support the Big Men, who become smaller and smaller, and eventually fade from view. Society fragments into extended families and small tribes of a dozen or so families, who find it advantageous to band together for mutual support and defense. This is the form of society that has existed over some 98.5% of humanity's existence as a biological species, and can be said to be the bedrock of human existence. Humans can exist at this level of organization for thousands, perhaps millions of years. Most mammalian species go extinct after just a few million years, but, for all we know, Homo Sapiens still have a million or two left.

If pre-collapse society is too atomized, alienated and individualistic to form cohesive extended families and tribes, or if its physical environment becomes so disordered and impoverished that hunger and starvation become widespread, then Stage 5 collapse becomes likely. At this stage, a simpler biological imperative takes over, to preserve the life of the breeding couples. Families disband, the old are abandoned to their own devices, and children are only cared for up to age 3. All social unity is destroyed, and even the couples may disband for a time, preferring to forage on their own and refusing to share food. This is the state of society described by the anthropologist Colin Turnbull in his book The Mountain People. If society prior to Stage 5 collapse can be said to be the historical norm for humans, Stage 5 collapse brings humanity to the verge of physical extinction.

As we can easily imagine, the default is cascaded failure: each stage of collapse can easily lead to the next, perhaps even overlapping it. In Russia, the process was arrested just past Stage 3: there was considerable trouble with ethnic mafias and even some warlordism, but government authority won out in the end. In my other writings, I go into a lot of detail in describing the exact conditions that inadvertently made Russian society relatively collapse-proof. Here, I will simply say that these ingredients are not currently present in the United States.

While attempting to arrest collapse at Stage 1 and Stage 2 would probably be a dangerous waste of energy, it is probably worth everyone's while to dig in their heels at Stage 3, definitely at Stage 4, and it is quite simply a matter of physical survival to avoid Stage 5. In certain localities - those with high population densities, as well as those that contain dangerous nuclear and industrial installations - avoiding Stage 3 collapse is rather important, to the point of inviting foreign troops and governments in to maintain order and avoid disasters. Other localities may be able to prosper indefinitely at Stage 3, and even the most impoverished environments may be able to support a sparse population subsisting indefinitely at Stage 4.

Although it is possible to prepare directly for surviving Stage 5, this seems like an altogether demoralizing thing to attempt. Preparing to survive Stages 3 and 4 may seem somewhat more reasonable, while explicitly aiming for Stage 3 may be reasonable if you plan to become one of the Big Men. Be that as it may, I must leave such preparations as an exercise for the reader. My hope is that these definitions of specific stages of collapse will enable a more specific and fruitful discussion than the one currently dominated by such vague and ultimately nonsensical terms as "the collapse of Western civilization."

Posted by kollapsnik at 3:15 PM 3 comments

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WHILE AT ORLOV'S BLOG, DON'T MISS:

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/money-as-metaphor.html

Friday, February 08, 2008

Money as Metaphor
 
Even the very FIRST stage is horrific.

The remaining four are increasingly unimaginable - as one goes 'down' the scale.
 

UncurledA

Inactive
Very sobering when it's all laid down on paper. I don't think I would have the emotional wherewithal to do it; just reading about it was tough enough. But, it's realistic in that it uses no silly presumptions to ameliorate reality, as many are wont to do. An example would be dismissing all this on the presumption that your people group was too tough or resourceful for this to hang on very long.


.
 

Alan2012

Inactive
Even the very FIRST stage is horrific.

The remaining four are increasingly unimaginable - as one goes 'down' the scale.

I would not say stage one is "horrific". More like "very uncomfortable". Also
at this point all but inevitable, IMO. As for the other stages: stage two,
economic collapse, is a "maybe" (50/50 chance?). Stage three, unlikely
but too possible. Stage four and five: thankfully VERY unikely. I just cannot
see it getting that bad. All IMO.

Note that he emphasizes that each stage requires serious concerted
EFFORT to keep things from sliding to the next-lower level. That's
important. If everyone were going into this with a hyper-individualistic,
"I got my preps, you can go blow!" attitude, then we would be assured
of going all the way to the basement. Fortunately, that is not the case.
Most people are more public-spirited than that -- and it is that public-
spiritedness that will keep us from going all the way to hell (stage five).
In this respect it is a good thing that more people are not survivalists,
since they often have just that "I got mine" mindset. It is a good thing
to have preps and to look ahead and care for oneself and ones own.
Just don't forget that, like it or not, you are a member of society.
 

Alan2012

Inactive
Orlov:

While attempting to arrest collapse at Stage 1 and Stage 2 would probably be a dangerous waste of energy, it is probably worth everyone's while to dig in their heels at Stage 3

... he thinks 1 and 2 are inevitable, but that we can hold the line at 3.

I certainly agree that we can hold the line at 3 (maybe even 2). But it IS going
to take public work and committment -- not "survivalistic" thinking.
 

LONEWOLF

Inactive
I would comment that Stage One to completion represents a profound and utter ruin of our present standard of living, and to *avoid* the slide into Stage Two would take a profound and utter reversal of our Government dependence and more important, a reversal of our entitled Public mind-set formed over the last one-hundred years. It might take several generations to make the turn-around. By then, Stage Three and Four? If Public heels couldn't be dug in hard & fast enough to stop the movement before Stage Two completes, the momentum would be too great, the time to reeducate ourselves too long to avoid further destruction. Money, lending, spending, are *key* components of our Modern Western Society. Without them we are in the early 1800's, in overwhelming debt, without a job. Whew.
 

Alan2012

Inactive
Here's a supplement -- a more long-winded and technical supplement -- to Orlov's article.

You don't have to read the whole thing; you can get the gist from the abstract, introduction
and concluding paragraphs (a good scholar's trick; who has time to actually READ all this shit?).

According to Greer, "catabolic collapse", at which we are at extreme risk, is "a self-
reinforcing cycle of contraction converting most capital to waste." Needless to say,
we've been converting capital to waste at a very rapid rate for many decades now. The
difference is that we've HAD the capital to piss-away, in the past, but those days
are now drawing to a close.

As I see it, Greer's thesis is consistent Orlov's model, suggesting that there is a
momentum or "pull" toward the basement as the collapse process gets underway.
Without the best concerted societal effort to oppose the process, we could slip into
a self-reinforcing cycle that pulls us down through all of Orlov's stages.

Greer is the proprietor of http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/ -- his blog.
His posts are often good and sometimes excellent.

You should go to this URL just to see the picture of Greer -- quite a character!



http://www.xs4all.nl/~wtv/powerdown/greer.htm

How Civilizations Fall: A Theory of Catabolic Collapse

By John Michael Greer

© John Michael Greer 2005

Abstract

The collapse of complex human societies remains poorly understood and current theories fail to model important features of historical examples of collapse. Relationships among resources, capital, waste, and production form the basis for an ecological model of collapse in which production fails to meet maintenance requirements for existing capital. Societies facing such crises after having depleted essential resources risk catabolic collapse, a self-reinforcing cycle of contraction converting most capital to waste. This model allows key features of historical examples of collapse to be accounted for, and suggests parallels between successional processes in nonhuman ecosystems and collapse phenomena in human societies.

Keywords: collapse, ecology, resources, succession

About the author
John Michael Greer has been studying issues of resource depletion and the collapse of civilizations since the energy crises of the 1970s, and is active in the contemporary nature spirituality movement. He lives in Ashland, Oregon.

[...snip...]

[...full text at the url...]
 

OddOne

< Yes, I do look like that.
Christian endtimes prophecies have all five steps coming true, with the added caveat that if not for divine intervention the situation would be an extinction-level event for humanity as a species. However, the bad side has a good side to follow - the next stage in humanity, a reuniting with God. It's the getting through the bad part - enduring to the end - that will prove or disprove your faith.

oO
 

Alan2012

Inactive
Greer is the proprietor of http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/ -- his blog.
His posts are often good and sometimes excellent.

Here's one of the recent excellent ones:



http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2008/02/back-up-rabbit-hole.html

Wednesday, February 06, 2008

Back Up The Rabbit Hole

One of this blog’s central purposes, the attempt to glimpse the future’s patterns in the Rohrshach inkblots of the present, poses a notoriously difficult challenge. Perhaps the worst of the difficulties involved in that attempt, as I’ve suggested here more than once, is the pervasive influence of mythic narratives so deeply ingrained in our culture that few people even notice them. In a retrospective essay on his own work, historian Arnold Toynbee offered a useful warning in this regard: “If one cannot think without mental patterns – and, in my belief, one cannot – it is better to know what they are; for a pattern of which one is unconscious is a pattern that holds one at its mercy.”

Toynbee was critiquing historians of his own period who treated the idea of progress as a simple fact, rather than the richly imaginative secular mythology it actually is. Still, his caution can be applied far outside the limits of the academic study of history. Nearly every dimension of contemporary culture, today just as in Toynbee’s time, embraces the unthinking assumption that the wave of history inevitably leads onward and upward through the present to a future that will look pretty much like the present, but more so.

This very widespread article of faith begs any number of questions. It seems to me, however, that one of them deserves special attention. The notion of history implicit in the modern mythology of progress is a straight line without branches or swerves, much less dead ends from which we might have to be retrace our steps. That idea of history, if it’s embraced unthinkingly, leaves us with desperately few options if adaptations to some temporary set of conditions turn out to be counterproductive when those conditions go away.

This is anything but an abstract concern just now. As the world closes in on the end of the 21st century’s first decade, its industrial societies are leaving behind a period in which just such a temporary set of conditions held sway. Until we recognize the blind alley down which those conditions led the developed world, we will be hard put to respond to a future that has begun to move in a very different direction.

A glance back three decades or so offers a necessary perspective. In the last years of the 1970s, conventional wisdom had it that the energy crises of that decade were the first waves of an “Age of Scarcity” that would demand either a massive conversion to nuclear power or an equally daunting and costly transition to a conserver economy in which relatively modest renewable energy inputs would be used with maximum efficiency. Both possibilities involved serious challenges and huge price tags, but in the face of the inevitable depletion of finite fossil fuel resources, those were the only rational options.

Unfortunately human affairs are not always governed by rational options. At the beginning of the 1980s, the political leadership of most Western countries – with the United States well in the lead under Ronald Reagan’s myopic guidance – rejected both these possibilities in favor of short-term gimmicks that papered over the symptoms of the energy crisis while doing nothing to address its causes. The improved energy efficiencies bought so dearly during the Seventies made it possible for reckless overproduction in the North Slope and North Sea oil fields to send the price of oil plunging lower, in constant dollars, than ever before in human history. All through the Eighties and Nineties, political manipulation of the oil markets kept petroleum not too far from $10 a barrel: around 24 cents a gallon, in other words, for the industrial world’s most precious natural resource.

The results of this disastrous collective choice have not, I think, been adequately measured even by most thinkers in the peak oil community. For a quarter of a century, from 1980 to 2005, petroleum could be had throughout the industrial world at prices so low it might as well have been free. Other energy costs dropped accordingly, as cheap oil competed with other resources for market share while simultaneously cutting the production and distribution costs of its competitors. The economic, infrastructural, and cultural initiatives that emerged during those years all embodied the assumption that “can we afford the energy cost?” was not a question anybody in the industrial world ever needed to ask.

One result was the movement toward economic globalization that spawned so much media chatter and devastated so many communities during those years. Propagandists for the private-sector socialism that passes for capitalism these days have insisted that this reflects the natural emergence of a global free market from which everybody would allegedly prosper someday, while their opponents have argued that it reflects a deliberate plot to force down wages and working conditions worldwide for the benefit of the rich. What has rarely been recognized is that perhaps the most important of all the forces driving globalization in those years was artificially low energy prices.

During the quarter century of ultracheap energy, transportation costs were so low that they became a negligible fraction of the cost of goods. This allowed manufacturers to arbitrage the difference in labor costs between industrial and nonindustrial countries without having to take shipping costs into account. The sort of predatory trade relationships pursued by European colonial empires in the 19th century could be replicated without the ferocious trade barriers and imperial misadventures of that earlier time; local industries could be flattened by overseas production without any need for naval bombardments or colonial administrations, because distance had no economic meaning.

Another result, at least as dramatic as globalization though less ballyhooed then or now, was the rise of a throwaway economy all through the industrial world. Not all that long ago, one business you could readily find in most American towns and urban neighborhoods was the small appliance repair shop, where toasters, clocks, radios, hair dryers, and a hundred other consumer goods could be taken for repair when they stopped working. An entire industry of small-scale entrepreneurs, and the support businesses that kept them stocked with spare parts, tools, and materials, survived on the economic realities that made it worthwhile to pay a repairman to fix small appliances instead of throwing them out and buying new ones.

That industry was already faltering by 1980 as the economic consequences of American empire distorted currency exchange rates and allowed other countries to export goods to the United States at a fraction of the cost of domestic production. The plunge in energy costs after 1980, though, finished the job. Once the cost of energy no longer mattered, consumer goods could be manufactured and shipped for a fraction of what they had previously cost, and repairing them made no economic sense when the repair might cost twice as much as a new model.

The explosive spread of the internet, finally, was also a product of the era of ultracheap energy. The hardware of the internet, with its worldwide connections, its vast server farms, and its billions of interlinked home and business computers, probably counts as the largest infrastructure project ever created and deployed in a two-decade period in human history. The sheer amount of energy that has had to be invested to create and sustain today’s internet, along with its economic and cultural support systems, beggars the imagination.

Could it have been done at all if energy stayed as expensive as it was in the 1970s? It’s hard to see how such a question could be answered, but the growth of the internet certainly would have been a much slower process; it might have moved in directions involving much less energy use; and some of the more energy-intensive aspects of the internet might never have emerged at all. It remains to be seen whether a system adapted to a hothouse climate of nearly free energy can cope with the harsher weather of rising energy costs in a postpeak world.

These examples could be multiplied almost endlessly, from our extravagant and dysfunctional health care system right up to the delusional economics that helped millions of Americans convince themselves that it made sense to buy poorly insulated, shoddily built new houses a three-hour drive from jobs and shopping. For a quarter century, people throughout the industrial world have become accustomed to economic, social, and personal arrangements that only work if energy is basically free. Just as with every previous economic shift in modern history, too, proponents of these arrangements wrapped them in the rhetoric of progress. Globalization was progress, we were told, and therefore as inevitable as it was irreversible; so was the internet; so, when it was noticed at all, was the throwaway economy.

Yet describing these changes as progress, in the sense given that word by our contemporary mythic narratives, dramatically misstates the situation. For a 25-year interval, by reckless overproduction of rapidly depleting resources and purblind manipulations pursued for short term political gain, the cost of energy was driven down to artificially low levels that had never been seen before – and, barring a whole concatenation of miracles, will never be seen again. The resulting glut of energy fostered ways of doing things that make no sense at all under any other conditions.

In hindsight, I suspect, the entire period from 1980 to 2005 will be seen as one of history’s supreme blind alleys. A great many of the economic arrangements, infrastructure, and personal and collective habits that grew up in response to that age of distorted priorities will have to be reworked in a hurry, no matter what the cost, as energy prices rise to more realistic levels. At the same time, the grip of the myth of progress on the industrial world’s imagination remains unshaken.

The possibility that the only way forward out of the present blind alley may require going back to less convenient and more costly ways of doing things is nowhere on our collective radar screens just now. It’s easy to understand why. After all, most people living in the industrial world today have spent a majority of their lives in settings in which cheap abundant energy was the unquestioned birthright of anyone outside the poverty class, and those less than thirty years old never had the chance to experience anything else.

Those who borrow Lewis Carroll’s metaphor and talk about the need to go down the rabbit hole have thus, I think, missed an important point. For the last quarter century, that’s exactly where we’ve been. The challenge before us now – a challenge many upcoming Archdruid Report posts will grapple with in different ways – is to climb back out of the rabbit hole and deal with the world we will have to face when the extravagant Wonderland of the brief era of ultracheap energy dissolves into windblown leaves and the shreds of a departed dream.
 

Alan2012

Inactive
> Here, Dmitri Orlov writes about what he calls the five stages of
> collapse.
>
> http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/five-stages-of-collapse.html
>
> Friday, February 22, 2008
>
> The Five Stages of Collapse

[snip]

> Stages of Collapse
>
> Stage 1: Financial collapse. Faith in "business as usual" is lost.
> The future is no longer assumed resemble the past in any way that
> allows risk to be assessed and financial assets to be guaranteed.
> Financial institutions become insolvent; savings are wiped out, and
> access to capital is lost.
>
> Stage 2: Commercial collapse. Faith that "the market shall provide"
> is lost. Money is devalued and/or becomes scarce, commodities are
> hoarded, import and retail chains break down, and widespread
> shortages of survival necessities become the norm.


If anyone needs it, here is a detailed overview of stage one
as it approaches stage two (i.e. where we are and will be,
12-36 months out):

snippets only:

http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/347/

A 12 STEP SCENARIO FOR GLOBAL FINANCIAL MELTDOWN, By Nouriel Roubini

Tuesday, 26 February 2008

ORIGINAL ARTICLE

To understand the Federal Reserve's recent actions, one has to realize that there is now a rising probability of a catastrophic financial and economic outcome—a vicious circle where a deep recession makes the financial losses more severe and where, in turn, large and growing financial losses and a financial meltdown make the recession even more severe.

Such a meltdown is likely to unfold in this 12-step scenario:

1. At this point it is clear that U.S. home prices will fall between 20% and 30% from their bubbly peak; that would wipe out between $4 trillion and $6 trillion of household wealth. Moreover, soon enough a few very large home builders will go bankrupt, leading to another free fall in home builders' stock prices.

[...big snip...]

12. A vicious circle of losses, capital reduction, credit contraction, forced liquidation and fire sales of assets at below fundamental prices will ensue, leading to a mounting cycle of losses and further credit contraction. Capital losses will lead to more margin calls and further reduction of risk taking by a variety of financial institutions that will then be forced to mark to market their positions. Such a forced fire sale of assets in illiquid markets will lead to further losses that will further contract credit and trigger further margin calls and disintermediation of credit. The triggering event for the next round of this cascade is the downgrading of the monolines and the ensuing sharp drop in equity markets; both will trigger margin calls and further credit disintermediation.

Based on estimates by Goldman Sachs, $200 billion in losses in the financial system would lead to a contraction of credit of $2 trillion, given that institutions hold about $10 of assets per dollar of capital. The recapitalization of banks by sovereign wealth funds, about $80 billion so far, will be unable to stop this credit disintermediation. With the movement of off-balance-sheet items back on balance sheets and of assets and liabilities from the shadow banking system back to the formal banking system, there will be an ensuing credit contraction because the mounting losses will outweigh by a large margin any bank recapitalization from sovereign funds. A contagious and cascading spiral of credit disintermediation, credit contraction, sharp falls in asset prices and widening in credit spreads will then be transmitted to most parts of the financial system. This massive credit crunch will make the economic contraction more severe and lead to further financial losses. Total losses in the financial system will add up to more than $1 trillion and the economic recession will become deeper, more protracted and more severe.

A near-global economic recession will ensue as the credit losses and the credit crunch spread around the world. U.S. and global financial markets will experience their most severe crisis in the last quarter-century.
 

Alan2012

Inactive
I would comment that Stage One to completion represents a profound and utter ruin of our present standard of living

Yes, which needs to happen. Our high "standard of living" was always
an illusion, anyway -- built on unsustainable patterns of consumption and
waste.

The upside of this whole picture is that the U.S. is STILL rich enough in
good productive land and natural resources and etc. to be a really great
place to live, and provide well for everyone. But we would have to give up
a whole lot of illusion and nonsense, and insane waste, such as e.g.
the military/industrial complex:
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=279038
 

Melodi

Disaster Cat
I have a couple of comments on this excellent thread.

One-Collin Turnbill's book, The Mountain People, should be required reading by all high school seniors or at least college Freshman in the Western World. To maintain sanity, it is a good idea to read his other great work, The Forest People right after-words if you wish to continue to sleep at night. In the Mountain People, poor Collin, the young and idealistic young anthropologist who doesn't even realize he (like most good people) believed that people are basically good and will care for one another as they can. Or at the very least they will care for their families and children.

What Collin discovers is that if things horrible enough, and go on long enough, even the once thought "sacred bonds" of mother and child can and sometimes do break down. The people Collin lived with had been traditional hunters and gathers for thousands of years until the local government decided they need to settle down. They "gave" them land (the stuff no else wanted) shoved a few seeds and hoes at them and left, except for the guards that kept them there at gun point.

People ate the seeds, then sat and waited. A very few tried very hard to grow things (Collin was torn between being a good anthropologist and just watching and breaking out of his role to help people) but even when they did, the food was eaten right away. Like most people who had spent all their lives consuming things before moving on elsewhere, they had no concept of "saving," if you do that as a hunter and gatherer it just rots or you can't carry it anyway.

To make a very long story very short, society broke down to the point where "love" was considered a "bad" emotion. Collin didn't really believe this was true until he repeated saw it in action. Mothers were expected to "throw children out" when the hit age three, where they formed child packs that lived by hunting bugs and stealing food from the mouths of old people (I'm not kidding). Older child packs would attack and sometimes kill the members of the younger one. A little girl who kept coming back to her mother and father's hovel was repeatedly kicked out again while Collin watched. A favorite game of children and young people was kicking the old folks to watch them cry.

I'll stop now, you can read the book. The one interesting part is the small group of people who ran away, that Collin found living in their old style of life and they had directly gone back to being caring, loving normal family oriented people! Once captured and brought back by the guards, they soon sunk back into depression and went back to the "new" life (except for a couple of really strong ladies who ran away again).

The Forest People, his other book, is about the wonderful, caring, loving Pigmies of the Ituri Rain Forest (just before their lifestyle was displaced by farming and the modern world). The small beings who name Collin something like "He Who Stomps through the Forest Making Noise like an Elephant" take him in, teach him to "walk properly" and eventually give him a tribal adoption and proper name.

Now, that's point one, point two is much shorter and concern the decline of repair and coming of the throwaway culture. 1980 is about right, that's when my friend from Turkey who was trained as an small appliance repair worker tried to fix my hair dryer. I remember his growing frustration and finally shouting in English,
"I can not believe this, they have made this thing so it can NOT BE FIXED! to fix it I would have to break it apart and destroy it. WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?"

A good question, one I still ask myself many years later...

Melodi
 
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Alan2012

Inactive
Now, that's point one, point two is much shorter and concern the decline of repair and coming of the throwaway culture. 1980 is about right, that's when my friend my Turkey who was trained as an small appliance repair worker tried to fix my hair dryer. I remember his growing frustration and finally shouting in English,
"I can not believe this, they have made this thing so it can NOT BE FIXED! to fix it I would have to break it apart and destroy it. WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?"

A good question, one I still ask myself many years later...

Melodi

Thanks for the very thoughtful post, Melodi.

Your recounting of Turnbull's observations should also say a lot to people
who are obsessed with "race" as a determinant of behavior. The thing is,
HUMAN behavior has an enormous range of possibilities. Humans can be
the sweetest, most magnanimous, generous, heroic and wonderful beings.
They can also be devils. White, yellow, red and black.

Regarding your second point: yes! That's it: WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?
The answer is: WE did such a thing, and we did it millions of times, over a
period of many decades. We created an insanely-wasteful society in which
waste was BUILT-IN and INEVITABLE. And now we are going to go down
the tubes, because of this half-century-long orgy of crazy, out-of-touch-
with-reality behavior.

Greer, again:
"the entire period from 1980 to 2005 will be seen as one of history’s supreme
blind alleys. A great many of the economic arrangements, infrastructure, and
personal and collective habits that grew up in response to that age of distorted
priorities will have to be reworked in a hurry, no matter what the cost, as energy
prices rise to more realistic levels."

Yes, in a big hurry, and at great cost.
 

Chartreuse

Yellow Solar Sun
I would not say stage one is "horrific". More like "very uncomfortable". Also
at this point all but inevitable, IMO. As for the other stages: stage two,
economic collapse, is a "maybe" (50/50 chance?). Stage three, unlikely
but too possible. Stage four and five: thankfully VERY unikely. I just cannot
see it getting that bad. All IMO.

Note that he emphasizes that each stage requires serious concerted
EFFORT to keep things from sliding to the next-lower level. That's
important. If everyone were going into this with a hyper-individualistic,
"I got my preps, you can go blow!" attitude, then we would be assured
of going all the way to the basement. Fortunately, that is not the case.
Most people are more public-spirited than that -- and it is that public-
spiritedness that will keep us from going all the way to hell (stage five).
In this respect it is a good thing that more people are not survivalists,
since they often have just that "I got mine" mindset. It is a good thing
to have preps and to look ahead and care for oneself and ones own.
Just don't forget that, like it or not, you are a member of society.

I agree.

And the fact is that most people don't have preps. They are quickly going to realize the value of working together. In a minority of cases, this will mean working together to do harm to others, and take what they have, but in the majority of cases you will see people working together to share resources and come up with creative solutions to survive.

Local economies are going to become VERY important. I think you'll see more and more local currencies spring up, along with yards being replaced with gardens, lots of people raising chickens and perhaps other livestock, even in the city, and a return to a time when the ability to, say, mend clothes is more valued than the ability to fix a computer. Maybe we'll even start living our lives more in tune with the cycles of the sun than the cycles of the alarm clock - without endless cheap energy, waking hours before dawn and staying up hours past dark does not work so well.

I also think that although many will not admit it, or even realize it at first, people will welcome a slowing down of the pace of life. That's what really give me hope, is that as these mega-systems collapse, we realize what they took from us in the first place, and that realization provides its own motivation to make things work another way.
 

Lynn

Inactive
This is like the UN plan, I think it is called "Agenda 21'. It's a save the environment plan. We all live in small places on top of each other, in urban centers. We walk rather than drive, food is grown locally with no meat.

"It could promote local economic self-sufficiency, by establishing community-supported agriculture programs, erecting renewable energy systems, and organizing and training local self-defence forces to maintain law and order. The Army Corps of Engineers could be ordered to bulldoze buildings erected on former farmland around city centers, return the land to cultivation, and to construct high-density solar-heated housing in urban centers to resettle those who are displaced. In the interim, it could reduce homelessness by imposing a steep tax on vacant residential properties and funneling the proceeds into rent subsidies for the indigent. With plenty of luck, such measures may be able to reverse the trend, eventually providing for a restoration of pre-Stage 2 conditions."
 

Alan2012

Inactive
This is like the UN plan, I think it is called "Agenda 21'. It's a save the environment plan. We all live in small places on top of each other, in urban centers. We walk rather than drive, food is grown locally with no meat.

"It could promote local economic self-sufficiency, by establishing community-supported agriculture programs, erecting renewable energy systems, and organizing and training local self-defence forces to maintain law and order. The Army Corps of Engineers could be ordered to bulldoze buildings erected on former farmland around city centers, return the land to cultivation, and to construct high-density solar-heated housing in urban centers to resettle those who are displaced. In the interim, it could reduce homelessness by imposing a steep tax on vacant residential properties and funneling the proceeds into rent subsidies for the indigent. With plenty of luck, such measures may be able to reverse the trend, eventually providing for a restoration of pre-Stage 2 conditions."

Question is, what is the alternative? What do you suggest?

We're tapped out. There is no slack left. Most of the things we have
grown accustomed to are unsustainable. Things must change --
radically.

The alternative to the "save the environment" plan is decimation, ruin and
possibly even extinction.

See the new thread: Frontlines video game:
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=279127
 

Chartreuse

Yellow Solar Sun
This is like the UN plan, I think it is called "Agenda 21'. It's a save the environment plan. We all live in small places on top of each other, in urban centers. We walk rather than drive, food is grown locally with no meat.

"It could promote local economic self-sufficiency, by establishing community-supported agriculture programs, erecting renewable energy systems, and organizing and training local self-defence forces to maintain law and order. The Army Corps of Engineers could be ordered to bulldoze buildings erected on former farmland around city centers, return the land to cultivation, and to construct high-density solar-heated housing in urban centers to resettle those who are displaced. In the interim, it could reduce homelessness by imposing a steep tax on vacant residential properties and funneling the proceeds into rent subsidies for the indigent. With plenty of luck, such measures may be able to reverse the trend, eventually providing for a restoration of pre-Stage 2 conditions."

"Live in small places on top of each other."

I've actually read some wonderful descriptions of how communities based on much smaller dwellings and the elimination of most cars could work. Each small home (about 500 sq. feet) would have room for a garden in back, and there would be spacious paths for biking and walking. Any cars would be relegated to the outside of the development.

What people don't get is that the way we are living now - grotesque McMansions placed miles and miles from shopping, work, and cultural centers, simply cannot continue. It is not sustainable in any sense of the word.

I think that one of the weirdest things about America today is how people have come to believe that this unsustainable lifestyle is not just something that can be continued and something that we somehow have a "right" to, but will be something that should be mourned when it's gone.
 

Alan2012

Inactive
China Connection has three posts about it here, starting with post 16.

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=279042

The problem continues to be: WHAT IS TO BE DONE? It is obvious that
the "American way of life" is unsustainable and is ruining the planet for
all future generations. (And NO, I am NOT talking about "global warming".
I'm talking about everything else.)

Here's part of what China posted:

"...current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class - involving high meat intake, use of fossil fuels, appliances, home and work-place air-conditioning, and suburban housing - are not sustainable.
Yes, that much is obvious. Any half-informed fool can see that that is true.

A shift is necessary. which will require a vast strengthening of the multilateral system, including the United Nations..." [1] Maurice Strong , opening speech at the 1992 UN Conference on Environment and Development
Now we get to the part that is questionable. IS a "vast strengthening of the...
U.N." necessary? It certainly shouldn't be. We should be able to do these things
ourselves. Are we ready to reorganize ourselves and our way of life,
voluntarily, without "vast strengthening" of international police bodies?
I should hope so!

Agenda 21, the UN blueprint for global transformation, sounds good to many well meaning people. Drafted for the purpose of creating "sustainable societies", it has been welcomed by nations around the world. Political, cultural, and media leaders have embraced its alluring visions of social justice and a healthy planet. They hide the lies behind its doomsday scenarios and fraudulent science. Relatively few consider the contrary facts and colossal costs.
Thin ice, here. "Doomsday scenarios"? "Fraudulent science"? Rubbish!
Whoever wrote those words is in deep denial.

After all, what could be wrong with preserving resources for the next generation?
Good question. Anyone have an answer?

.... and so on. Whoever wrote the crap that China posted is a fool. I don't
favor strengthening the U.N. or the idea of a big coercive global government.
BUT, IF WE WANT TO AVOID COERCIVE GLOBAL GOVERNMENT, WE HAVE TO
GET OUR ACT TOGETHER. It won't do to simply stay in denial about the
realities of the environment and resources picture.
 

Freeholder

This too shall pass.
Alan, there's a big difference between 'freedom with responsibility', which I think everyone here would agree is a good thing, and 'total control by the government', which I think most people here would agree is a bad thing.

Kathleen
 

Alan2012

Inactive
Alan, there's a big difference between 'freedom with responsibility', which I think everyone here would agree is a good thing, and 'total control by the government', which I think most people here would agree is a bad thing.
Kathleen

Yes, of course total control (or even any control) by the government is
a bad thing. What I am saying is that the extent to which we remain in denial,
and refuse to take responsibility, is the extent to which we will create the
conditions where government or authoritarian control (perhaps in some
much-worse form than government -- like feudal gangsterism, or some
such) will come about. It is our choice. If we take responsibility, then we
"close the door" to such potentials. By taking responsibility, the real
conditions of freedom are created. But you cannot expect to be free if you
do not take responsibility. That's the dream of an adolescent, wishing for
total "freedom" without ever having to face the fallout, or results, of
failure to take responsibility.

I'm an anarchist. But I'm not a fool. People have to be ready and able to
govern themselves, to get along without a government.
 

Alan2012

Inactive
Dmitri Orlov sounds like Gary North and Infomagic having a brainstorming session.

Cascading cross defaults.

Yes, at moments he does! Just remember that he is not saying that the
slide MUST go all the way to stage 5. We can "dig in our heels" at stage
3 and keep things from slipping further, according to him. Or even at stage
2, according to me. :spns:

It will require serious community-level and society-level EFFORT, however.
See post #8.

IT IS OUR CHOICE. Just like it is our choice whether or not there will be
a great dieoff. The future is not set in concrete.

Here's one scenario, and a pretty likely one I would say, BUT HARDLY
INEVITABLE:
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=279127
 

Hermit

Inactive
I'd say we're just at the beginning of Stage 1, but we're not going to go on to Stage 2 for about another year.
 

LONEWOLF

Inactive
I'm thinking we're already deep into Stage One, with parts of Stage Two and Three becoming manifest and internalized by The Public. Likely, Big Turmoil is ahead - make your networking connections....! "Member Meetings" anyone?
 

Sugaree

Inactive
I'm thinking we're already deep into Stage One, with parts of Stage Two and Three becoming manifest and internalized by The Public. Likely, Big Turmoil is ahead - make your networking connections....! "Member Meetings" anyone?

I agree with your assesment.

I am at a crossroads now, do I keep trying to convince my DGI neighbors or is it time to clam up and just try to blend in? I feel like we are on the brink- right now is just the calm before the storm, relatively speaking
 

mbo

Membership Revoked
"Live in small places on top of each other."

I've actually read some wonderful descriptions of how communities based on much smaller dwellings and the elimination of most cars could work. Each small home (about 500 sq. feet) would have room for a garden in back, and there would be spacious paths for biking and walking. Any cars would be relegated to the outside of the development.

What people don't get is that the way we are living now - grotesque McMansions placed miles and miles from shopping, work, and cultural centers, simply cannot continue. It is not sustainable in any sense of the word.

I think that one of the weirdest things about America today is how people have come to believe that this unsustainable lifestyle is not just something that can be continued and something that we somehow have a "right" to, but will be something that should be mourned when it's gone.


Let us know when Teddy Kennedy, Barabar Streisand, George Soros and John Kerry have moved into a 500 sq. ft. pod, that'll be the clue that everybody else should.

:lkick::lkick::lkick:
 

mistaken1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Let us know when Teddy Kennedy, Barabar Streisand, George Soros and John Kerry have moved into a 500 sq. ft. pod, that'll be the clue that everybody else should.

:lkick::lkick::lkick:

Let the rich and powerful lead the world to paradise by example........
 

David Nettleton

Veteran Member
Christian endtimes prophecies have all five steps coming true, with the added caveat that if not for divine intervention the situation would be an extinction-level event for humanity as a species. However, the bad side has a good side to follow - the next stage in humanity, a reuniting with God. It's the getting through the bad part - enduring to the end - that will prove or disprove your faith.

oO

We can read about it in Matt: 24.
 

Mzkitty

I give up.
It still amuses me that people would rather go through all the horror of the end times, rather than have a revolution right now and stop it dead in its tracks.


Lazy.



:lol:
 

cmm

Veteran Member
Christian endtimes prophecies have all five steps coming true, with the added caveat that if not for divine intervention the situation would be an extinction-level event for humanity as a species. However, the bad side has a good side to follow - the next stage in humanity, a reuniting with God. It's the getting through the bad part - enduring to the end - that will prove or disprove your faith.

oO

You're right on the money, oO - as you so often are, IMHO. The Bible will be proven right - AGAIN!
 

Mzkitty

I give up.
You're right on the money, oO - as you so often are, IMHO. The Bible will be proven right - AGAIN!


Well, if everybody INSISTS on Armageddon, then that chapter will come true.

However, if people would read other things in the Bible, they would probably understand it doesn't have to be that way, that there is a choice.

Do you want your free will or not?


Dig deeper before it's really too late.


:)
 
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