CORONA Whos has right to make decision to pull the plug - Covid?

bassaholic

Veteran Member
As you know from my other post my brother is on a vent dealing with CV.

The doctors tell me his vitals are OK, blood pressure not so good, but he is stable.

His wife is ready to "pull the plug" due to potential kidney issues.

Does the brother have any say or is it just the spouse? This is in Oregon.
 

Heliobas Disciple

TB Fanatic
I don't have an answer for you, but will add your brothers to my prayers.

[PS. You might want to find out if he ever executed any documents for end of life decision/health surrogacy. If he appointed his wife his health surrogate in a legally binding document in Oregon, she may have final say, but again i don't know the law in Oregon. You may want to google that. If not, I don't know what the law in Oregon would be for that ether. Does he have any other living relatives besides you and his wife? How do they feel about it? It may be easiest to just appeal to her to wait a few more weeks to see how he progresses. Especially if there are kids involved who can appeal to her to save their father.]

HD
 

Tigerlily

Senior Member
I'm sorry that this decision is before you.

I don't know if it is to late for this, but antihistamines should be given to Covid 19 patients. It is an allergic reaction in the chest, so that it does not have ability to expand.

IMPORTANT: C 19 - The great misdiagnosis!!
C o V I D pneumonia is actually mast cell degranulation of the lungs!! Put simply, it's an allergic reaction occurring after the viral phase ends, most likely to something in the viral particles left over after the body deals with the virus. The reason you can't tell it's an allergic reaction is because it's happening in the lungs, so you experience only symptoms of chest tightness and fatigue!
Dr. Shankara Chetty of South Africa has closely monitored and treated over 8000 patients personally. He noticed there was something very different about viral pneumonia in comparison to C-V pneumonia and was determined to figure out what the mechanism of treatment should be. He had all of his patients come in as soon as they expressed any symptoms, he followed the progression of everyone's disease pattern and noticed something very interesting which resulted in his findings.
Every person progressed the same for the first 5 days, all of them, even those who eventually went on to worsen, appeared to improve around that 5th to 6th day. But from that day forward, there were two distinct camps...one group would always go on to improve after that initial period, but the other group would suddenly worsen on day 8. Not day 7 or 9, always day 8, and they would be fine day 7, while going on to develop what we've come to recognize as C-V pneumonia. But it's not pneumonia at all!
Dr. Chetty knew the pattern of expression for pneumonia of all kinds and this C-V "pneumonia" wasn't behaving like any other form of pneumonia. In fact, the flow of oxygen wasn't restricted at all, like in pneumonia. Patients were showing a restriction to lung expansion, but not air flow and it was coming on rapidly, unlike pneumonia. The lung itself was inflamed and couldn't expand.
It was then that he recognized the similarity this condition had with an allergic reaction. The second an allergic reaction happens, inflammation creates instant symptoms. In peanut allergies for example, you eat a peanut and your face swells up. Pneumonia is progressive, not instant like this.
As it turns out, this illness is biphasic, meaning there could potentially be two phases of illness and it's the second phase where mortality and morbidity occur.
He had a critically ill patient, who had diabetes, hypertension and her oxygen saturation was in the 80's, both pre-existing conditions are co-morbidities of C-V. He treated her with a high dose steroid and added in an antihistamine.
When he called to check on her the next day, her oxygen levels were normal and she progressed on to full health.
It's important to note here too that none of his patients have experienced complications of C o V I D or long haulers. He has since begun working with long hauler's cases though and even in their testing, he is discovering that it's related to mast cell degranulation - aka - histamine!! . He may be the ONLY doctor tracking this illness so closely. Although, I have noticed that the I-MASK protocols have been altered to include Singulair.
Add antihistamines to your C protocol!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifqE8cBQbI4
 

DazedandConfused

Veteran Member
Unless things have changed here in NC if the patient is able to make legal decisions Its their choice to continue life saving treatments. My mother was a dialysis patient and took treatments 3 times a week for 7 years,she got tired of living on a machine with no real freedom. She told her doc her was ready to quit. 7 days later she was dead Her choice and wishes and I supported her the whole way.

Another case My FIL had a stroke and it left him unable to make decisions ,he was hooked to a vent about 6 months in he had a brain stem stroke (Brain dead) My wife fought like hell to keep him hooked up to the vent.
I finally was able to reason with her that it was unfair to keep him alive in that state and we as a family made the call to unhook. The doc said it would take just a few mins for him to pass after unhooking the vent. 10 seconds after the vent was removed he started breathing on his own using his stomach muscles only. He lived that way for 3 weeks.

If your Brother wants to fight and live he better get someone to be Medical Power of Attorney that will carry out his wishes.. Sounds like his wife is just ready to move on. Seen it happen many times people are selfish.

Good Luck

MPA papers can be signed in the hospital with just two witness's present.
 
Last edited:

WalknTrot

Veteran Member
Does he have the paperwork on file? A health care directive? That's who makes the decision.
If he didn't, then it will default to the spouse.

Lesson: Don't marry a "bad seed".
 

coloradohermit

Veteran Member
If the patient is conscious, he should have the say. If he has a medical directive, that should have the say. If none of that applies, the wife would have the say.

My medical directive basically says that if you're reading this for any reason, pull the plug. I'm 71 and I have no interest in living in bed on machines.
 

cyberiot

Rimtas žmogus
The object lesson here is to get your medical-directive ducks in a row while you're still healthy. Life events forced me to do an estate plan, but it has done wonders for my inner peace. An estate plan can specify financial POA, medical POA, mental health POA, and what to do with what's left of you when the party's over.

Priceless.

My wild-hair guess is that most states default to the spouse, if living and competent. Most hospitals have staffers who can offer advice on this issue.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
I'm sorry that this decision is before you.

I don't know if it is to late for this, but antihistamines should be given to Covid 19 patients. It is an allergic reaction in the chest, so that it does not have ability to expand.

IMPORTANT: C 19 - The great misdiagnosis!!
C o V I D pneumonia is actually mast cell degranulation of the lungs!! Put simply, it's an allergic reaction occurring after the viral phase ends, most likely to something in the viral particles left over after the body deals with the virus. The reason you can't tell it's an allergic reaction is because it's happening in the lungs, so you experience only symptoms of chest tightness and fatigue!
Dr. Shankara Chetty of South Africa has closely monitored and treated over 8000 patients personally. He noticed there was something very different about viral pneumonia in comparison to C-V pneumonia and was determined to figure out what the mechanism of treatment should be. He had all of his patients come in as soon as they expressed any symptoms, he followed the progression of everyone's disease pattern and noticed something very interesting which resulted in his findings.
Every person progressed the same for the first 5 days, all of them, even those who eventually went on to worsen, appeared to improve around that 5th to 6th day. But from that day forward, there were two distinct camps...one group would always go on to improve after that initial period, but the other group would suddenly worsen on day 8. Not day 7 or 9, always day 8, and they would be fine day 7, while going on to develop what we've come to recognize as C-V pneumonia. But it's not pneumonia at all!
Dr. Chetty knew the pattern of expression for pneumonia of all kinds and this C-V "pneumonia" wasn't behaving like any other form of pneumonia. In fact, the flow of oxygen wasn't restricted at all, like in pneumonia. Patients were showing a restriction to lung expansion, but not air flow and it was coming on rapidly, unlike pneumonia. The lung itself was inflamed and couldn't expand.
It was then that he recognized the similarity this condition had with an allergic reaction. The second an allergic reaction happens, inflammation creates instant symptoms. In peanut allergies for example, you eat a peanut and your face swells up. Pneumonia is progressive, not instant like this.
As it turns out, this illness is biphasic, meaning there could potentially be two phases of illness and it's the second phase where mortality and morbidity occur.
He had a critically ill patient, who had diabetes, hypertension and her oxygen saturation was in the 80's, both pre-existing conditions are co-morbidities of C-V. He treated her with a high dose steroid and added in an antihistamine.
When he called to check on her the next day, her oxygen levels were normal and she progressed on to full health.
It's important to note here too that none of his patients have experienced complications of C o V I D or long haulers. He has since begun working with long hauler's cases though and even in their testing, he is discovering that it's related to mast cell degranulation - aka - histamine!! . He may be the ONLY doctor tracking this illness so closely. Although, I have noticed that the I-MASK protocols have been altered to include Singulair.
Add antihistamines to your C protocol!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifqE8cBQbI4


Re: Lung inflammation and steroids.

I haven’t seen it spelled out before but the FLCCC protocols include steroids starting the second week if the symptoms are not easing or getting worse. And IIRC in the early days of this steroids were used in the hospitals as treatment as well. When I ordered my covid meds (just in case) I included a few courses of prednisone per the protocols and it is another real cheap drug just like the Ivermectin.
 

33dInd

Veteran Member
such a sad scenario
Sorry your going thru this
Never forget that case in Florida where the husband unplugged the wife from life support over the objection of the mother and father
 

bassaholic

Veteran Member
My brothers wife is saying she has it in writing that he doesn’t want to go past the vent. I don’t know if that’s true or not because she always makes stuff up. Not sure why she would even have a letter like that from him. I have to wonder when he wrote it.
I’m thinking about getting some legal advice but I really don’t even know where to start. Do I contact a lawyer in my area or does it need to be in his area or what. I guess I need to hit Google
 

amarilla

Veteran Member
When my dad was sick, and I "wanted" to make decisions I had to show paperwork that I could make decisions. I had POA. I carried around 10 copies in my suitcase to have one at all times to prove I could make decisions. There should be some paperwork.
 

aznurse

Senior Member
Depends on Oregon laws to determine who can make decision without advance directives/mpoa (notarized). Hospital ethics commitee may get involved as to hospital policy.
 

Wiley

Membership Revoked
My brothers wife is saying she has it in writing that he doesn’t want to go past the vent. I don’t know if that’s true or not because she always makes stuff up. Not sure why she would even have a letter like that from him. I have to wonder when he wrote it.
I’m thinking about getting some legal advice but I really don’t even know where to start. Do I contact a lawyer in my area or does it need to be in his area or what. I guess I need to hit Google

Wrong. You do not need a "search" engine that is seriously flawed with results. Don't mess around, contact a family law attorney today.
 

bassaholic

Veteran Member
Wrong. You do not need a "search" engine that is seriously flawed with results. Don't mess around, contact a family law attorney today.

If you have a better way to research lawyers other than a search engine, please let me know ASAP.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
My brothers wife is saying she has it in writing that he doesn’t want to go past the vent. I don’t know if that’s true or not because she always makes stuff up. Not sure why she would even have a letter like that from him. I have to wonder when he wrote it.
I’m thinking about getting some legal advice but I really don’t even know where to start. Do I contact a lawyer in my area or does it need to be in his area or what. I guess I need to hit Google
She will have to provide that info to the hospital before anything happens so it will be verified. If you have concerns if it is legit or not you may want to contact the hospitals legal dept if you can. Put the bug in their ear and that may slow the process.
 

Catnip

Veteran Member
I'm sorry that this decision is before you.

I don't know if it is to late for this, but antihistamines should be given to Covid 19 patients. It is an allergic reaction in the chest, so that it does not have ability to expand.

IMPORTANT: C 19 - The great misdiagnosis!!
C o V I D pneumonia is actually mast cell degranulation of the lungs!! Put simply, it's an allergic reaction occurring after the viral phase ends, most likely to something in the viral particles left over after the body deals with the virus. The reason you can't tell it's an allergic reaction is because it's happening in the lungs, so you experience only symptoms of chest tightness and fatigue!
Dr. Shankara Chetty of South Africa has closely monitored and treated over 8000 patients personally. He noticed there was something very different about viral pneumonia in comparison to C-V pneumonia and was determined to figure out what the mechanism of treatment should be. He had all of his patients come in as soon as they expressed any symptoms, he followed the progression of everyone's disease pattern and noticed something very interesting which resulted in his findings.
Every person progressed the same for the first 5 days, all of them, even those who eventually went on to worsen, appeared to improve around that 5th to 6th day. But from that day forward, there were two distinct camps...one group would always go on to improve after that initial period, but the other group would suddenly worsen on day 8. Not day 7 or 9, always day 8, and they would be fine day 7, while going on to develop what we've come to recognize as C-V pneumonia. But it's not pneumonia at all!
Dr. Chetty knew the pattern of expression for pneumonia of all kinds and this C-V "pneumonia" wasn't behaving like any other form of pneumonia. In fact, the flow of oxygen wasn't restricted at all, like in pneumonia. Patients were showing a restriction to lung expansion, but not air flow and it was coming on rapidly, unlike pneumonia. The lung itself was inflamed and couldn't expand.
It was then that he recognized the similarity this condition had with an allergic reaction. The second an allergic reaction happens, inflammation creates instant symptoms. In peanut allergies for example, you eat a peanut and your face swells up. Pneumonia is progressive, not instant like this.
As it turns out, this illness is biphasic, meaning there could potentially be two phases of illness and it's the second phase where mortality and morbidity occur.
He had a critically ill patient, who had diabetes, hypertension and her oxygen saturation was in the 80's, both pre-existing conditions are co-morbidities of C-V. He treated her with a high dose steroid and added in an antihistamine.
When he called to check on her the next day, her oxygen levels were normal and she progressed on to full health.
It's important to note here too that none of his patients have experienced complications of C o V I D or long haulers. He has since begun working with long hauler's cases though and even in their testing, he is discovering that it's related to mast cell degranulation - aka - histamine!! . He may be the ONLY doctor tracking this illness so closely. Although, I have noticed that the I-MASK protocols have been altered to include Singulair.
Add antihistamines to your C protocol!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifqE8cBQbI4
This makes sense to me and is hopefully true.
 

Griz3752

Retired, practising Curmudgeon
You really need to speak to someone in the legal profession that specializes in that stuff.
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Best advice and you need to move quickly. If you have any emails or txt discussing his end of life preferences, this could help but unless a judge OKs it, her position as wife will likely prevail.

Sorry for your circumstances
 

day late

money? whats that?
Maybe I missed it, but does he have the ability to make that choice himself? Due to the question I must assume not. In Fla. the closest family member has the right. In the case above it would be the wife. I do know when my father was on his deathbed the doctor pulled my mother, both brothers and myself aside to talk about it. Our wives and children were deliberately left out. Thank The Lord, Dad and Mom had made their choice years ago and made us all aware of it. I told the doctor that none of us were happy with the idea of pulling the plug, but we would honor Dad's choice. No extraordinary measures were to be taken to extend his life. Dad didn't want to become a vegetable dependent on his wife and children. I'm honestly glad he made the choice, so we didn't have too.
 
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