Prepping for next winter Wood burning stove question

[rolph]

I've never owned a WB stove before, but we have 3,000 sq ft in a 90+ year old house to heat. I read most of the threads here on wood burning stoves, and saw good reviews for the Napolean 1900p (85,000 btu) from a few posters with large houses :

http://www.zoobler.com/pdisplay.php?id=404

It's around $1,600. with the blower and I imagine more for the stove pipe, etc.

Then I browsed Northern Tools and they have a brand called Vogelzang, the mountaineer model that delivers 104,000 btu's for $599. + shipping from northern:

http://www.vogelzang.com/vg650elg.htm

Those 2 look about the same, only the Napolean looks like it has a little better fit and finish. We'll have to measure for space requirements, and I realize an old house is inefficient, so bigger is better. We'll pipe it up a central chimney through an unused fireplace.

Then somehow, google surfing sent me to Ace Hardware, where they have this one that claims 96,000 btu's for $129. with free shipping to your local Ace:


http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2099067&cp&kw=wood+stove

edit to add it only heats 800 sq ft. Same BTUs as the one that heats 1,000 - 3,000 sq ft. ?????


Machining looks gastly on this sucker, but the style has been around for ages. It doesn't look very efficient and the price reflects that it isn't a showpiece, but efficiency is a priority. Knowing nothing about wood stoves, I wonder if it is even safe? It does have a cooktop and would be a great little backup stove if anyone is looking for a good deal.

So is the $1,600. better spent than the $129. for approx the same btu's? I realize the little box stove has no blower. I'm thinking once the massive chimney heats up (2 fireplaces back to back in adjoining rooms downstairs. The chimney runs up the central hallway upstairs for even heat distribution) a blower may/may not be necessary?

I know when I visit relatives up north, they have similar small stoves which will warm you within 5 ft, but the rest of the house is freezing.

We're in the orange south-central climate zone:

I appreciate all input. We plan to keep the stove and move it with us when we sell the house one day, so quality is probably more important than price. That $129. is a killer price though!

I imagine the cost of stoves is going to go up at least 30% by next season. We want to be ahead of the herd and begin stockpiling firewood. I can tell I am a prepper when I'm purchasing a wood stove when it's 90 degrees outside

 

[Charlie]

Those old cheap stoves used to be standard issue around here during the depression. They work OK, but will not meet fire codes. A lot of the deer camps around here still use those. They require a skilled operator, but if you know how to deal with them, they will do the job just fine. Especially for the money.

Try to avoid a stove that "requires" electricity. Most of the ones with blowers will burn ok without the blower running, but be sure to check on that issue.

There are many great brands out there now.

And by all means make sure your chimney is properly installed and meets code as well as all the clearance requirements (each stove is different).

Good luck.

 

[rolph]

Thanks Charlie. Thanks for the confirmation about the cheap one. It really doesn't look very safe.

I checked locally for installers and the price would range from $500-700. There is a Napolean dealer/installer in my area. I wouldn't trust myself to safely install one. The chimney is capped at the moment, and we've never had it checked out because we don't plan to use it, but a wood stove flue should be safe in it right?

Also, thanks for letting me know about the blowers. I'll look into that also. On the napolean it's an option. On the Vozelgang it is standard.

 

[John H]

rolph,

An EPA approved low emission wood stove will burn 30-40% less wood for the same heat and produce only about 50% of the creosote in the chimney. Less creosote means less chimney fires and less-frequent cleaning.

It's my understanding that in the US, all you can buy new and install is EPA to meet building codes. You will also probably have problems getting insurance, if it is not EPA approved. Expect to have to supply photos to the insurance company of the installed stove and the chimney. By the way, insurance company's in Canada will only cover secondary use, which means that you must have a primary source of heat and say you will burn less than 4 face cords a year.

Up here in Canada, you would also have to use a stainless steel flexible chimney liner in a masonry chimney or use the double walled insulated chimney pipe, if it's not in an existing chimney. That may not be true in the US, but it is the safest.

In any case, these address fire and safety concerns. How much is your family's life worth?

John H, Canada

 

[Wise Owl]

Check into the better stoves.....and you can use a fireplace insert....it is a stove that goes into the fireplace opening....I had one in Michigan and heated a 1600 sq ft house with it.....it was a Lopi..........top of the line as far as I am concerned.....fuel efficient and extremely well built........
you do not want the cheap models.....they are built from inferior metals and are a fire hazard.....you also will need stove pipe as a chimney liner for that stove to work properly.....otherwise it won't draw correctly.....you can't just put a pipe into a chimney and have it work....the pipe has to go up thru the chimney and then above the chimney about a foot or so.....

Check out Lopi and Quadrafire....both are excellant companies with excellant fireplace inserts......

You are correct about the brick retaining and helping to heat your home..it will do that very nicely.......

Wise Owl misses her Lopi, has a Regency now that works ok but is not a Lopi. sigh

 

[hrspwr]

I went with the Lopi and metalbestos flue.

 

[Wise Owl]

hrspwr, is that a Patriot or ? Looks like the smaller one...

Just want to add that I am sooooo ooooo jealous.....our landlady wouldn't cough up for the Lopi.....bummer...........

 

[hrspwr]

Sharp eyes on Wise Owl. Yes that is their Patriot model.

 

[Just a Nurse 2]

Tks for the info, John.

I've been wanting to have someone take the gas insert out of the standard fireplace in my basement and put in a wood-burning insert instead. I wasn't sure what requirements there were up here for installing a wood-burner in terms of insurance & flues

Suz

 

[Brooks]

I wouldn't trust myself to safely install one. The chimney is capped at the moment, and we've never had it checked out because we don't plan to use it, but a wood stove flue should be safe in it right?

The existing flue is not necessarily ok, and depending on its configuration may cause maintenance issues. My own chimney flue was serviceable enough, but it would have required removing the insert each time the flue was cleaned, and that simply wasn't acceptable (more expensive, more mess, etc.). You need to have it inspected by someone familiar with the requirements. In my case, it was a matter of installing a new flue inside the existing one, so I still used the chimney.

 

[tosca]

What about basement installment?

I had a friend who bought the most heavy duty stove he could find; had it installed in the basement with the heat running through the furnace flues////it heated his entire house; he lived in Washington State...can anyone comment about this type of installation? It seems to me it would be much more comprehensive than having a stove in one room?

 

[lynnie]

We bought a high quality wood stove in summer, a store model, for 700 dollars off ( 800 instead of 1500). It had been burned several times which got the new stove stink out. Shop around, and do it soon, because as oil prices go up the installers and wood stove stores will be totally swamped.

 

[WalknTrot]

The boxwood stove is ok for real small cabins. (12x12? I'm from Minnesota...brrrr ) Even if you know how to use it, it will go through wood like crazy.

Check on the efficiency rating of any stove you consider. The useable heat vs. wood consumption can vary wildly. Yes...it's a price trade-off. With a 3000 sq. foot house, you could go through two-three times as much wood depending on the stove.

For your family's sake, get the chimney checked out by a professional. I personally wouldn't trust an old masonary flu. Be prepared to spend as much or more on the chimney or new liner as you do on the stove. In my state, any installation of a woodstove and chimney are subject to approval by my homeowner's insurance company before they will cover the house. Might be worth talking to your's as well.

 

[rolph]

Thanks you all for your responses and advice. I hadn't thought of insurance.

I thought the stove would have a double walled flue inserted all the way up the chimney thru the present fireplace to make it safe. Most stoves only require a 6" flue, so double walled should fit?

I do have the option of getting it installed on an outer wall with a double walled pipe, but making use of the chimney for heat distribution sounds more efficient.

There is a quadrafire dealer in my area also, so I'll check them out. And the EPA ratings. I know the Napolean dealer said I could buy elsewhere and they would install it as long as it was UL approved.

I thought about a fireplace insert, but the old chimney scares the hell out of me. I thought a wood burning stove with it's own piping would eliminate any hazards with the masonary chimney.

I'll definitely have it inspected. Who would be the most reliable to get it checked out? A chimney sweep, chimney installer, or the wood stove company that would install it?

No basement here unfortunately. Just a crawlspace. I'd really like an outdoor wood burner, but most times the state is under a burn ban, so I don't think that would fly.

Here's the Vozelgang Mountaineer specs:

FEATURES:
Heavy gauge 3/16" reinforced plate steel with firebrick lining
Cast iron feed door with large 19' x 8' glass window
Sturdy pedestal base with pewter trim edge caps
Adjustable high speed (100 CFM) blower included
Large ash drawer for easy ash removal
Safety tested to UL Standard 1482-1998One year unconditional guarantee
Heats up to 2000 square feet

SPECIFICATIONS
Height (Overall)...................30”
Width.................................28”
Depth.................................20”
Firebox Depth.....................14”
Firebox Width.....................23"
Flue Size (Round).................6”
Door Opening......................22"
Material..........Cast Iron & Steel
Fuel...............................Wood
BTU Rating..........104,000 BTUs
Weight..........................300 lbs.
Pcs. per Container..........140/40

Clearances from combustible wall:
Side Wall........25"
Rear Wall........26"
Corner.............19"



Vogelzang stoves meet EPA requirements for "exempt" wood/coal burning appliances (stoves).

May NOT be installed in mobile homes, manufactured homes, trailers or tents. (NO Exceptions)

Here's the Napolean specs:

Model 1900
Emissions (grams per hour) 208
Width x Height x Depth (inches) 25 1/2 x 33 1/4 x 31 1/2
Firebox Chamber (W.H.D.) (inches) 18 x12 x 22 1/2
Firebox Capacity 3.0 cu. ft.
Door size (height x width) 14 3/4 x 19 3/8
Weight without bricks 326 lbs.
Weight of Bricks 48 lbs.
Approximate Area Heated*
sq. ft. 1,000 - 3,500
Heat output BTU/h** 11,800 - 34,000
Heat Output BTU/h (high burn)*** 85,000 BTU
Burn Time (low fire)* 12 hours
Catalytic combustor no
Mobile home approved yes
R-2000 approved (Canada) yes
Max. log size 20"
Outside combustion air yes
Flue diameter 6"
Flue size-prefabricated 6"

Minimum Clearances with Single Wall Chimney Connector from Stove to Combustibles
Rear 10"
Side 22"
Corner 8"

Minimum Clearances with Approved Double Wall Pipe from Stove to Combustibles
Rear 12"
Side 22"
Corner 8"

*Figures may vary with individual conditions. Please consult your specialty dealer
**EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) rated BTU/HR with softwood test fuel (for emissions testing only) - no refueling
***Wolf Steel Ltd. own test results showing realistic BTU using hardwood logs with regular refueling. Heat output will differ depending on chimney draft as well as type, moisture content and size of wood

The vozelgang does meet UL and EPA, but must have less insulation because the minimum clearances are more than the Napolean. It is less deep though, (20" vs 31 1/2 for the napolean) I may need one that size for fit, because the fireplace is right near a door opening (no door. just a passthrough)

Thanks again for all the advice!

 

[John H]

rolph,

Your city or town building inspector will do it.

It's probably legally required, but not always arranged by the installer.

Stay away from stoves with catalytic converters. They're troublesome and most stoves no longer need them. They get their efficiency other ways.

John H

 

[rolph]

ps I wish there were some left overs in stores to get a good deal, but they are sold out everywhere. Even online, many are backordered.

Locally, Ace has the Napolean on their website listed for $900., but when I called the store they already want $1,100. plus shipping to my local Ace, from price increases.

 

[rryan]

I have an (but very well maintained) Blaze king that is simple as hell to operate and it will heat the entire house in sub zero weather to the point of sleeping with the windows open.....and that is with it burning cottonwood/pine/spruce which is far from ideal for firewood.

 

[rolph]

rolph,

Your city or town building inspector will do it.

no kidding? Wow that's great! We have a very concientious building inspector here and I'd trust him more than someone trying to sell me something. I know he's good after getting permits for a remodel. I found out after the fact that he would have inspected our house pre-sale for free. He and another inspector spend 4 hrs inspecting a house of our size for the experience.

We had a licensed Nachi inspector that missed just about everything to the tune of $20k.

Thanks John!

I'm going to do a search for Blaze King also. Thanks rryan.

 

[adgal]

We bought a soapstone about seven years ago - and I LOVE it!

http://www.woodstove.com/

IT not only heats the room - but maintains a steady radiant heat - so you can stand next to the stove without being cooked. We can also put wood in at night and have nice coals in the morning.

 

[momof23goats]

WE have a wood add on furnace, that my hubby built, and it is our only heat, it runs on the blower, and comes up our air ducts just lie a gas furnace would. we love it, we have wonderful heat all winter long.

 

[Wise Owl]

Stick to the better units if you can rolph.....you will spend less money on wood or less time cutting wood.........the better the unit the less wood you will feed it. The Lopi is wonderful that way.......most of the better woodstoves are firebrick lined now which helps to retain the heat longer....they are also built with heavier steel and will last forever......do NOT get a caste iron stove...they can and do develope cracks and you will lose your stove......you don't want to spend a bunch of money to get set up then have it crack because you got it too hot too fast........nada....

the better models have both a draft control and a damper so you can fine tune them to burn optimally for longer periods while not creosoting up your chimney pipe.
You do want a chimeny liner if you have an older chimney......it will make it more efficient also.........a wood stove will pay for itself in about a year if you get a good one......
This small cabin probably would have cost us $1000 for propane to heat (we never used the propane heater and the landlady pulled it out, good riddance we say) but with the cost of propane? It cost us about $400 to heat our place for the whole of last winter and less the year before because wood was cheaper then..

We have a lot of deadfall from ice storms that WILL be going into the woodshed this year......that is a promise we both made.......if we are lucky we won't have to buy ANY wood this year.......must be a dozen or two trees down out there now...

 

[AnnCats]

Why only a wood heat stove?

May I ask why you are focusing completely on only wood stoves for heat?
I have used an Ashley wood stove for heat and it worked just fine, but when we moved to Idaho, I decided that the best possible stove would be a wood cook stove. AFter looking all over and comparing prices and my pocket book, I chose a Bakers Choice stove from Lehmans. i believe it is made by Suppertime stoves, an Amish business.

We had a choice between the Bakers choice and the Pioneer Maid, the big sister of the bakers choice. i went with the BC because it could burn both wood and coal. In case you have not considered the possibility of burning coal, you might like to consider it as an additional fuel. It's easy to get a couple of tons of coal delivered, coal is easier than wood to hide, and burns lots hotter once you have it going. The downside is sometimes it smells, and you MUST have stainless steel piping and triple wall through the ceiling, attic and out the roof to make sure the extra hot fire doesn't cause problems.

The upside of the bakers choice is that it is relatively small, it has a fairly good size wood box, and you can bank it to burn all night. We have a 4000 square foot house, 2000 up, 2000 in the basement, and the stove heats everything just fine. The cooking surface is VERY large, and remember every inch of it can be used for cooking, not just a couple of burners like on an electric stove. The oven itself is small,but adequate, a small turkey, a large pan of cinnamon rolls, you'll do fine with normal family cooking.

About the stove pipe - our house was built by a man who was born in Germany and remembered the old farmhouses there, with the central masonry chimney. he built the house to the masronry brick chimney, about 4 foot wide on each side, goes from the basement up to the top of the roof. He had one wood stove downstairs and one wood stove upstairs. We built a huge tile hearth and tiled the back of the masonry chimney to match. We lined the chimney with triple wall all the way from the hole for the stove pipe up to the top of the roof. The stovepipe from the stove to the hole is also stainless steel.

Our insurance company asked for pictures of the installation, and because we'd taken the time to over protect every surface, there was never any question of covering us - there are plenty of sites on the net that will give you every bit of information you might need!

As you can tell, I absolutely think a cookstove used as a heating stove is the best way to go!

 

[Lone Wolf]

Cant really ad much to this thread...except....be sure that your old chimney is inspected, or go with a new set-up.

old cast iron stoves may crack and dump hot coals.....

Clean out the stove and chimney each fall season BEFORE using.

Be careful of creosote build-up in the chimny..chimny fires can set your roof on fire.

Soft wood equals more creosote, hard wood are much better.

Take your time, and get real familiar with the operation of your particular stove

lw

 

[Wise Owl]

While our Regency is not a cookstove and I can't bake with it I do cook with it...I can put 4 pots on the top or 2 pots and a skillet....our place is too small for any kind of regular cook stove altho I would love one.......sigh......but don't discount what you can do with a flat top woodstove.......I use ours to cook my oatmeal every morning...I use it all the time when the power goes down....but come summer time I would sooner not heat that puppy up to cook with...I would use the weber charcoal/wood kettle barbeque outside.......all our heating is geared to wood and alternative heating/cooking also geared to wood........but then we live in the woods.........thousands of square miles of woods......heh.

 

[Lone Wolf]

While our Regency is not a cookstove and I can't bake with it I do cook with it...I can put 4 pots on the top or 2 pots and a skillet....our place is too small for any kind of regular cook stove altho I would love one.......sigh......but don't discount what you can do with a flat top woodstove.......I use ours to cook my oatmeal every morning...I use it all the time when the power goes down....but come summer time I would sooner not heat that puppy up to cook with...I would use the weber charcoal/wood kettle barbeque outside.......all our heating is geared to wood and alternative heating/cooking also geared to wood........but then we live in the woods.........thousands of square miles of woods......heh.

I bet you can put an old fashioned bean pot on your stove Wise Owl....heh..just need to leave it there a little longer.

lw

 

[seraphima]

Regarding blowers, invest in a newer eco-fan for your woodstove; no electricity, works on the hot air of the stove. I have one, and it is great! ( what's the point of having an electric fan if the power is out... but it saves electricity all the time )

How your house is configured makes a big difference in how warm the stove will get it. An open design that lets the air circulate is best; lots of closed off rooms with doors will keep it colder.

 

[rolph]

wow seraphima I'll have to look into that econo-fan. We have a foyer and stairway just off where we would put the stove. There are 2 doors going into the foyer, so we could easily let the heat rise upstairs in addition to the chimney.

I'm still kind of confused about the chimney. Do I need the chimney lined in addition to a double wall pipe? I don't ever want to burn in the fireplace itself. We just got rid of the original wood shake roof, and had the house rewired, so I don't want to burn it down :-)

I think the lopi's start around $2,500. and soapstones are nice, but I don't want go that pricey. I'd love to have one of those Lehman cookstoves, but the stoves are too large to put in that area. There are 4 doors entering that room and one of them is french doors. Like wise owl and lone wolf said, I think I could cook on any wood stove. Even our backup kero heater makes a killer stove/hw heater. We have colemans, propane grills, etc also for backup.

It's looking like it will run around $2,500-3k for a complete setup with the stove, install and piping. Our gas/elec bills using delonghi heaters this past season avg'd around 375. a month for zoned NG central heaters, 4 delonghi's on 1,500 or 750w settings, and 4 ppl living in the house. That was for 2 months and then they dropped down. My last bill was $38.

We got an energy efficient elec HW heater in Jan, so our gas stove and heating is all we're down too for NG. I even saved the old gas HW heater to use as a solar heater and water storage.

Alot depends on what we do on bugout land in the short term, to see whether we want to get blown in insulation also, or put the improvements into the bugout land instead. Once you start working on old houses they seem to suck your $ dry I think the better investment would be in the bugout spot, because the way the world is going I think we will be utilizing it sooner than later. And land prices are never getting cheaper, so now is the time to buy.

Wood/coal is a possibility, but you still have to buy coal. I'll look into that also though.

thanks again for all your help! We'll call our insurance company, get it inspected and then find a reputable dealer/installer that is certified by the manufacturer for installation. I'm like you Anncats. I believe in overkill when it comes to safety. I have no desire to start over from scratch again.

 

[John H]

The stainless steel liner goes up inside the masonry chimney. That's all you need if you're using that setup.

The space between the liner and the chimney tiles is sealed at the top, so some of the heat from the liner will also heat the chimney space, keeping the liner itself warmer, making the chimney draft better. That will also reduce the amount of creosote.

John H

 

[Robin Hood]

I have 2 stoves. One is a Lange and a very powerful heater and is very well constructed. It is a wood stove that is doubled lined in the fire box, a very nice feature. It is all cast iron and is air tight. I can open the door and have a fire going for the "soul" or close and adjusmtwo air vents and get an 8 hour burn out of it without any refill. I use this stove the most.

The 2nd stove is an all cast iron efil and is a combo wood/coal stove. The air comes up through a shaker grate in the bottom and has a removable coal hopper. It burns the wood much to quick but is an excellent coal stove which can last about 24 hours with periodic shaking of the grate.

If you are planning to go coal, then I would stay with an all coal stove. It must have a hopper and it must have air coming up from the bottom through grates that can be shaken to remove the ash and clinkers.

I had two chimneys bult special for each stove. They are located inside our home although on an outside wall. This helps put the chimney heat back into the house and not outside.

The thread has a lot of good advice. Read them all as you are making a substantial investment. I know people who have bought cheaper stoves only to trash them 3 years later and buy another one.

You want to burn hard wood and it should be dried for 1 year. It would not be a bad ide to get green wood now for the heating season starting in 9-07.

God speed on your search.


rh

 

[mdanse]

Because of this group, my husband and I purchased a pole building in 1998 because of Y2K worries. We were able to make it livable by installing a wood floor over the concrete, well/septic, it had a 200amp electric service already and we added a wood cook stove and a Quadra Fire stove. This week, a contracter is putting in an enclosure over the deck and that will be the last update for the place.

The wood stove will heat the cabin and the enclosure. The cookstove also can use coal. With electric prices due to go up as well as everything else, my husband just tonight said--we will probably spend our winters at the cabin and close this place (our regular home in town) up for the winter! Also, we're retiring this year and money will be tighter.

Thank you, Timebomb, for the many tips and helps and, for sure, the shove to make it all happen. Of course, it was paranoia and uncertainty that made us hop to it!

Wonder if there'll be enough wood lots for all the folks looking to burn wood???!

Dana

 

[rolph]

thank you robin hood. Now I understand what I'll need and feel alot better. When we had the roof redone they asked if I wanted to tear down the chimney (to make some money) and I told them don't touch it! They are too expensive to rebuild and are great for holding the heat.

Then when the new roof leaked around the chimney, they claimed the chimney was in bad shape and that's why it was leaking. No way. It had never leaked before. At that point I was scared they had damaged the fireplace during the roof install to make a buck. I hate having to hire people to do work for that reason.

My son fabricated a new aluminum cap for it and the roofers resealed around the roof/fireplace and the leak stopped. My son said the chimney is in great shape.

I'm used to fireplace burning and want to get this wood stove taken care of in the next month if possible so I can start getting wood. I know it will take a season to dry green wood and seasoned is more expensive, so the sooner the better. Wood goes for $40. a rick here, which I think is 1/3 of a cord. I'm used to buying face cords in the past.

My neighbor scouts out farmers that need some clearing of deadfall and gets all his wood for free. He said it takes 2 guys to clear the waste and clean up for the farmer, but well worth the sweat equity.

 

[JackieD]

We also got the eco-fan for our wood stove. Works great, needs no electricity. A very good investment.

Ordered from Cabela's.

J

 

[rolph]

mdanse, we were just talking today about a sturdy carport for a temp building on bugout land and closing it in for quick cheap shelter. Your place sounds like a nice low cost way to build.

You're wise in considering a 2nd winter place for the cost of utilities. I can't even imagine how much it will cost to heat next season, but I know it won't be cheap, and fearful it may not even be reliable.

Like you, I've learned so much and am grateful for the knowledge on this board. Y2k was just premature, the handwriting was on the wall. I don't see any turning back for the way things are goin now, for just about every reason, versus a computer glitch. I think this may be our last opportunities to become self sufficient and setup, before the cost alone makes it prohibitive. If I had the choice between owning a bugout house and renting in town, the self sufficient bugout place would win hands down. There are always places to "live", but few places to have a self sustaining future.

I don't think I've made a purchase in the past 15 yrs that didn't have preps in mind. lol except for the HD tv set a couple years ago. Old eyes forces that decision.

Because of this group, my husband and I purchased a pole building in 1998 because of Y2K worries. We were able to make it livable by installing a wood floor over the concrete, well/septic, it had a 200amp electric service already and we added a wood cook stove and a Quadra Fire stove. This week, a contracter is putting in an enclosure over the deck and that will be the last update for the place.

The wood stove will heat the cabin and the enclosure. The cookstove also can use coal. With electric prices due to go up as well as everything else, my husband just tonight said--we will probably spend our winters at the cabin and close this place (our regular home in town) up for the winter! Also, we're retiring this year and money will be tighter.

Thank you, Timebomb, for the many tips and helps and, for sure, the shove to make it all happen. Of course, it was paranoia and uncertainty that made us hop to it!

Wonder if there'll be enough wood lots for all the folks looking to burn wood???!

Dana