FOOD Making my first loaf of bread machine bread this evening - SECOND LOAF, post 133; now THIRD, post 154 - fell. What went wrong?
- Thread starter Dennis Olson
- Start date
Melodi
Disaster Cat
OK, I missed the no dining table in the other thread but I've used a chair, the oven rack (with a pan on it) and even balanced on a kitchen sink for simple rolls.
I know this is frustrating and you may simply want to make smaller batches in the bread baker for a short time.
The basic loaf for a 1 pound loaf (instead of the Usual 2 pounds) in the bread baker is
1 to 2 tsp yeast
1 tsp to 3 tbs sugar (for the yeast, you can add more if you like)
3/4 cup liquid (up to 1 cup of flour is dry or things are too humid) - liquid is water, milk, eggs, juice, broth whatever
2 cups flour (white or one cup wheat/one cup white)
1/2 tsp salt
1 to 3 tbsp of oil, butter or lard
The machine will direct you in terms of liquid or solids first (depends on the machine).
The basic ratio is:
3/4 cup liquid to 2 cups flour
1 1/2 cups liquid for 4 cups of flour
1 3/4 (to 2 cups) of liquid 5 to 6 cups of flour (almost 2 pounds to 2-pound loaf see the machine for largest size)
Water or water with a big of yogurt in it works best for hard bread like Italian or French, milk and eggs for softer bread.
Honey may be used in place of sugar up to 1/8th up in a full-sized loaf but you want to add it to the liquid.
Leftover mashed potatoes make wonderful bread, stir in about 1/2 to 3/4 cups into the liquid (usually milk) you tend to get a softer bread using potatoes.
I know this is frustrating and you may simply want to make smaller batches in the bread baker for a short time.
The basic loaf for a 1 pound loaf (instead of the Usual 2 pounds) in the bread baker is
1 to 2 tsp yeast
1 tsp to 3 tbs sugar (for the yeast, you can add more if you like)
3/4 cup liquid (up to 1 cup of flour is dry or things are too humid) - liquid is water, milk, eggs, juice, broth whatever
2 cups flour (white or one cup wheat/one cup white)
1/2 tsp salt
1 to 3 tbsp of oil, butter or lard
The machine will direct you in terms of liquid or solids first (depends on the machine).
The basic ratio is:
3/4 cup liquid to 2 cups flour
1 1/2 cups liquid for 4 cups of flour
1 3/4 (to 2 cups) of liquid 5 to 6 cups of flour (almost 2 pounds to 2-pound loaf see the machine for largest size)
Water or water with a big of yogurt in it works best for hard bread like Italian or French, milk and eggs for softer bread.
Honey may be used in place of sugar up to 1/8th up in a full-sized loaf but you want to add it to the liquid.
Leftover mashed potatoes make wonderful bread, stir in about 1/2 to 3/4 cups into the liquid (usually milk) you tend to get a softer bread using potatoes.
Meemur
Voice on the Prairie / FJB!
So yummy!
Profit of Doom
Dismember
Got some cheese to go with that whine?
Melodi
Disaster Cat
To make cheese bread, make a basic white bread recipe from the book and add between 1/4 and 1/2 cup grated cheese and some herbs if you like - makes great sandwiches...
Cheese is fat, so like butter, you don't want to add too much in a bread baker but a little (like garlic) goes a long way.
Cheese is fat, so like butter, you don't want to add too much in a bread baker but a little (like garlic) goes a long way.
I tried a “standard white” loaf that also fell and ended horribly just now. I followed the recipe exactly, and the dough ball was the correct consistency, and it rose well. And when the bake cycle came on, it bricked. That’s the third one in a row. My original success was made using white flour. I’m of the opinion that this flour cannot be used straight. There may be a way, but I’m not expert enough to know what it is. I’ve given up, until the year comes when I can get white flour in stores again.
If that day ever comes...
If that day ever comes...
don't give up son
I have murdered many loaves in my time
the pux are great for soups and making bread crumbs
I have even changed direction the middle
had a batch drop just b4 the oven
got frustrated and smashed it down again and made focaccia? bread with lotsa parmajan
I have murdered many loaves in my time
the pux are great for soups and making bread crumbs
I have even changed direction the middle
had a batch drop just b4 the oven
got frustrated and smashed it down again and made focaccia? bread with lotsa parmajan
I could see about shipping you a 25 lb bag of white, bleached flour in a box ( does the post office have a large standard price box? ). There's plenty of it up here in WI. No shortages of anything in my little city.
How you doing on toilet paper?
I’m great onTP. I stocked up before the rush (by about 48 hours!)
while I’d love to get the flour, I’m betting shipping would be prohibitive.
while I’d love to get the flour, I’m betting shipping would be prohibitive.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
Quick table set up, I used to do this when I lived in my tiny 600 Sq ft apartment at the university. Stack four five-gallon buckets, with lids, into twos and place a thick piece of plywood over the top of the buckets. The buckets can the be stacked four high in a corner and the plywood tucked out the way for future use. One side of my plywood had that formica stuff on it, got it as a scrap from someone who was building bookshelves, so it was easy to make bread and the like on it and just wipe it clean with a soapy dishrag. I kept flour, sugar, beans, and rice, in those buckets so they were heavy and not tippy.
You could even stack them three high if you have six buckets with lids, I only had the four so would work sitting at a chair.
You could even stack them three high if you have six buckets with lids, I only had the four so would work sitting at a chair.
You know, that idea has merit. Thanks!
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
Mine? Let us know if you try that one out, I have a few other tricks up my sleeve, I'll just have to think back on what I did to use my space the most effeciently. I'm spoiled living in a large house now!
ETA A pair of folding sawhorses would also work and you could use a larger piece of thick plywood. I'd use 3/4" plywood. You could also use it as a surface for your bread machine.
I had one of those rolling craftsman tool boxes for my art supplies and tools, that's where the microwave, crockpot, and toaster lived on top of that toolbox. There was only enough room on the countertop for the dish strainer, lol
My house is a modest 3br, about 1500 sq ft, but the kitchen is very poorly designed. The rest is adequate.
There are a zillion folding tables out there.
Different cost, sizes, material, weight, height, etc/
Different cost, sizes, material, weight, height, etc/
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
there are a lot of houses like that, sigh, I'm not sure what the builders were thinking. Do you have a dining room? If so I'd be setting that up into a prep area, lots of people have done that in the past. it's not as handy as a nicely laid out kitchen but it's better than nothing.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
I bought a four footer at Sam's Club and then a section of PVC pipe cut into risers to lift the table 18 inches taller for when I do dye workshops. Students get either an eight foot or six foot table to work on, also with the PVC pipe risers.
No dining room. The dining area was designed to be in the front part of the kitchen. Right now, Hairy’s day-cage is there. There’s not enough room for a table anyway.
packyderms_wife
Neither here nor there.
yikes you weren't kidding when you said it was poorly designed. I've seen some houses with pathetically small kitchens, expensive houses, but they still had full-sized dine-in dining rooms.
Melodi
Disaster Cat
Dennis, one question and if you answered it already that's fine it just means I missed it - did the flour you got say "soft" or "plain" on it?
The Reason I'm asking is a lot of Canadian flour is sent over to Europe (my unbleached white flour is from Canada) and in this market flour is either "strong" or "plain."
If it isn't marked Strong or All-Purpose Flour, then the default is "plain" which has most of the gluten removed and is used for soda bread, cakes, cookies, scones and pie crusts - yeast bread made from it it is too soft and will usually fall.
It is much closer to US Cake flour than the US All-Purpose Flour.
If the bag says "strong" or "All Purpose Flour" (which is a blend of the two types) then there's a different problem going on - if it is plain white flour than it isn't really going to work made in the bread baker.
You can, however, mix it with whole-wheat flour (if you can find any) or rye flour to make a nice yeast loaf or you can use it to make soft rolls.
It is also perfect for cookies, cakes, pie crusts, scones, and American biscuits - just not hard yeasted bread.
I should have thought of this the moment you said the flour was imported directly by you from Canada because a lot of the big bags are shipped over here - English and Irish Wheat is too soft for yeast bread making (for the most part) and has to be imported.
The Reason I'm asking is a lot of Canadian flour is sent over to Europe (my unbleached white flour is from Canada) and in this market flour is either "strong" or "plain."
If it isn't marked Strong or All-Purpose Flour, then the default is "plain" which has most of the gluten removed and is used for soda bread, cakes, cookies, scones and pie crusts - yeast bread made from it it is too soft and will usually fall.
It is much closer to US Cake flour than the US All-Purpose Flour.
If the bag says "strong" or "All Purpose Flour" (which is a blend of the two types) then there's a different problem going on - if it is plain white flour than it isn't really going to work made in the bread baker.
You can, however, mix it with whole-wheat flour (if you can find any) or rye flour to make a nice yeast loaf or you can use it to make soft rolls.
It is also perfect for cookies, cakes, pie crusts, scones, and American biscuits - just not hard yeasted bread.
I should have thought of this the moment you said the flour was imported directly by you from Canada because a lot of the big bags are shipped over here - English and Irish Wheat is too soft for yeast bread making (for the most part) and has to be imported.
The invoice says:
Stone ground all-purpose (hard red), 10kg
Ive been adding the correct amount of gluten. (I added gluten to my successful loaf as well. The one that used Gold Medal bleached white all-purpose flour.)
Stone ground all-purpose (hard red), 10kg
Ive been adding the correct amount of gluten. (I added gluten to my successful loaf as well. The one that used Gold Medal bleached white all-purpose flour.)
Melodi
Disaster Cat
Thanks, Dennis, then it is a different problem especially if you have extra gluten to add (most organic unbleached All-Purpose or Strong Flour doesn't really need it but it doesn't hurt).
In that case, I'm guessing that the problems could be weather or the quirks of your machine (they all have them).
Maybe take a rest for a few days and come back to it? Or jump the dough into a cast iron pat or loaf pan, let it rise a second time in the oven (turned off) and then bake it in the oven at 350 to 375 degrees for between 35 and 45 minutes.
There are also some great videos on YouTube on using bread bakers, there may even be one for your particular model.
In that case, I'm guessing that the problems could be weather or the quirks of your machine (they all have them).
Maybe take a rest for a few days and come back to it? Or jump the dough into a cast iron pat or loaf pan, let it rise a second time in the oven (turned off) and then bake it in the oven at 350 to 375 degrees for between 35 and 45 minutes.
There are also some great videos on YouTube on using bread bakers, there may even be one for your particular model.
I NEED to get some white flour to see what happens. Historically I’ve kept a 2# package because I never bake. I used that on my first loaf (the one that worked.) Been using the Canadian stuff since. I need to do a white one to ascertain if the Canadian flour is causing the issue.
But it is impossible to get flour in Austin. Any flour. Or yeast. Or gluten. Sugar is back, but no flour.
But it is impossible to get flour in Austin. Any flour. Or yeast. Or gluten. Sugar is back, but no flour.
Shadow
Swift, Silent,...Sleepy
You aren't in Austin. You are in Cedar Park.
Drive to Taylor. Stop at the Dollar General in Hutto and check. Then go on to Taylor and check their DG.
No joy?
Drive to Burnet. Stop at the DG in Leander and check. Then go on the Burnet and check.
There is an HEB across the street in Burnet.
Drive to Waco. Stop at the DG in Temple
etc, etc etc
Drive to Taylor. Stop at the Dollar General in Hutto and check. Then go on to Taylor and check their DG.
No joy?
Drive to Burnet. Stop at the DG in Leander and check. Then go on the Burnet and check.
There is an HEB across the street in Burnet.
Drive to Waco. Stop at the DG in Temple
etc, etc etc
I’m not driving 300 miles for flour.
teedee
Veteran Member
When I first started using a bread maker I would get big fluffy loaves but when it baked it would collapse. I asked on one board for any input and some kind sole said to add some ascorbic acid, like you use to keep fruit from going brown during canning. I used about 1/2 teaspoon in the next loaf and it turned out fine. The initial raise was not nearly as big but it did not collapse. This was about 50% freshly ground red wheat flour and 50% white flour.
Groucho
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I remember discussions on this from my classes several years ago. Since you're using a hard red whole wheat flour, they probably left the bran and the germ in. Dough rises because the yeast out gasses and puffs it up. When this happens, the gluten normally stretches out and when baking occurs, it hardens thereby keeping the bread puffed up after the yeast dies. The bran and germ actually act as small razors cutting the strands of gluten thereby causing your bread to collapse once the yeast dies from the heat.
To overcome this, I grind my wheat very fine and will sift it through a very fine #40 or #50 mesh to get the larger pieces of bran out. I also add 300 grams of high gluten white flour to 550 grams of my wheat flour plus I add 40 grams of vital wheat gluten. This all helps overcome the destructiveness of the bran.
I would suggest you make your dough using at least 1/3 white bread flour to the wheat flour and keep on using the wheat gluten as well. Sounds like you'll have to wait a bit until King Arthur or Pilsbury flours get back in stock.
Here's an article I looked up . Your solution comes about in the section titled "Dough Strength & Gluten Developent." Hope this helps.
www.abreaducation.com
To overcome this, I grind my wheat very fine and will sift it through a very fine #40 or #50 mesh to get the larger pieces of bran out. I also add 300 grams of high gluten white flour to 550 grams of my wheat flour plus I add 40 grams of vital wheat gluten. This all helps overcome the destructiveness of the bran.
I would suggest you make your dough using at least 1/3 white bread flour to the wheat flour and keep on using the wheat gluten as well. Sounds like you'll have to wait a bit until King Arthur or Pilsbury flours get back in stock.
Here's an article I looked up . Your solution comes about in the section titled "Dough Strength & Gluten Developent." Hope this helps.
Baking Bread with Whole Wheat Flour — abreaducation
Ready to go beyond white bread? Learn about the baking properties of whole wheat flour and how to successfully use it in your doughs.
www.abreaducation.com
Here’s where I’ve asked specifically about flour:
www.timebomb2000.com
…… - Breadmaker flour - what to use?
I’m in a search for bread machine flour. Currently I’m looking at some “All Trumps high gluten bromated bleached” flour. Can I use that in the bread machine without worry? If not, what flour type should I be looking at for “basic” white bread? TIA
Profit of Doom
Dismember
Those might be people who order in every night. There are also those with a fantastic gourmet kitchen, for show only. Can’t cook worth shit.
Profit of Doom
Dismember
Just mentioning in case someone tries it. Remove the bread from the oven before turning it on. Some ovens during preheat will use the broil element to hurry up the heating. This will probably burn anything you intended to bake.
jordansgrandma
Senior Member
Dennis:
If you would like recipes based on weight of flour and other items for bread making go to:
www.kingarthurflour.com
Their recipes are by weights. My daughter uses their site for their recipes.
If you would like recipes based on weight of flour and other items for bread making go to:
King Arthur Baking
Recipes you can count on. Shop Online for Flour, Ingredients, Baking Mixes and Kitchen Tools.
Their recipes are by weights. My daughter uses their site for their recipes.
I'll add my two scents worth even though it is probably redundant. Back when I made all our bread and ground my own wheat, try as I might, I could never bake a loaf of the whole wheat without it falling slightly in the middle. I tried gluten with no luck plus it caused me to have horrible esophagus spasms for some strange reason. I had a little luck with narrower loaf pans. Finally, I started mixing it 50/50 with all purpose flour and got a much better loaf. finally, I gave in and bought a KitcheAid mixer with a dough hook. Since I wanted one of the older models with the Hobart motor, I had to buy used on ebay.
Bottom line...if after you've dabbled with this bread thing and get hooked like I did and you want that near perfect bread, mix your flours and get a mixer with a dough hook to do all that hard core kneading it takes to get that near perfect rise.
BTW, after you asked about a bread maker a while back, I drug out one I bought years ago after someone posted on here that Amazon had the Sunbeams on sale for around $30 with free shipping. I didn't need it and only bought it because I made all our bread and thought it would be nice for a backup and who could pass up that deal? I finally took it for a test run with a recipe I pondered on for an hour...I always have to do my own thing. My bff told me I might need to add a little extra water or flour depending on what the dough looked like...I added a tiny amount of water...probably shouldn't have. It was an epic failure. It fell in the middle. Nobody would eat it but me. It crumbled when I sliced it. After reading this whole thread, I'm going to give it another shot.
Good luck with the flour search. I also ended up a little shorter on plain flour than I intended. I thought I had more. I'm about to have to drag out the wheat berries and the grain mill to make this stuff go a little further.
Edited to add...back when I was doing all the bread, I liked the King Arthur brand of flour that Kroger carries. since it's a little pricier than most brands here, you might find it in stock if there is a Kroger nearby.
Bottom line...if after you've dabbled with this bread thing and get hooked like I did and you want that near perfect bread, mix your flours and get a mixer with a dough hook to do all that hard core kneading it takes to get that near perfect rise.
BTW, after you asked about a bread maker a while back, I drug out one I bought years ago after someone posted on here that Amazon had the Sunbeams on sale for around $30 with free shipping. I didn't need it and only bought it because I made all our bread and thought it would be nice for a backup and who could pass up that deal? I finally took it for a test run with a recipe I pondered on for an hour...I always have to do my own thing. My bff told me I might need to add a little extra water or flour depending on what the dough looked like...I added a tiny amount of water...probably shouldn't have. It was an epic failure. It fell in the middle. Nobody would eat it but me. It crumbled when I sliced it. After reading this whole thread, I'm going to give it another shot.
Good luck with the flour search. I also ended up a little shorter on plain flour than I intended. I thought I had more. I'm about to have to drag out the wheat berries and the grain mill to make this stuff go a little further.
Edited to add...back when I was doing all the bread, I liked the King Arthur brand of flour that Kroger carries. since it's a little pricier than most brands here, you might find it in stock if there is a Kroger nearby.
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ainitfunny
Saved, to glorify God.
MY kids organized my WHOLE HOUSE while I was in the inpatient REHAB in a skilled nursing facility for 4 months. I have no idea what got thrown out, or moved to some other place in the house or garage. The bread machine that was on the counter is gone. I also cannot find where the at least 100 lbs of salt went. I have empty salt shakers now and need to go buy iodized salt. I must have had at least 10 one pound round boxes of salt in addition to several 25 lb bags. The kids and grandkids don't remember what was thrown away or where anything was put.
Are the grocery stores out of salt now too?? I haven't been grocery shopping since this all started.
Are the grocery stores out of salt now too?? I haven't been grocery shopping since this all started.
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ainitfunny
Saved, to glorify God.
I was making bread, probably the first time, from a recipe which I had followed exactly, when I was young, at home (maybe 16) and was working pretty hard to knead it, when my dad came in and watched for a few minutes, he poked the dough ball and said "ADD MORE WATER. His mother had taught him the amount of water changes with the dryness of the flour and that "the resultant dough ball before rising, should be no stiffer than a woman's (not girl's) titty."
Now, I know that is gonna provoke comments, (especially advice given to a single man.)
You are either going to have to dredge up memories or draft a volunteer.
Now, I know that is gonna provoke comments, (especially advice given to a single man.)
You are either going to have to dredge up memories or draft a volunteer.
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Melodi
Disaster Cat
Thanks, mine does not do this so I hadn't considered it as a problem; but yeah that would kill the bread really fast.
I only suggested rising in the oven because of the space issues; I do it here in Ireland a lot because it is often too cold for the bread to rise, so I turn the oven on for five minutes, turn it off and put the bread in to rise.
But when I made bread at my in-laws in Dallas, I did the same thing (to keep their cat from leaving giant paw prints in the dough) but I omitted the pre-heating part because it was so hot the dough rose too quickly (and that can happen).
Thankfully I first learned to make bread (by hand) in a Mississippi Summer with no airconditioning in the late 1970s so I'm good with Hot, Cold, Humid, Dry or even Mile High (Denver) I found Denver to be the steepest learning curve and we had a lot of bread crumbs before I figured things out.
Macgyver
Has No Life - Lives on TB
I'm not and expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Marriott a time or two.
Also I've never used a bread maker but I do use a kitchen Aid.
Try the windowpane test. It will show if your gluten's are developing.
www.thekitchn.com
Also if the stuff your making is not edible, slice it dry it and make bread crumbs. At least its not going to waste.
Or feed it to the dogs.
Also I've never used a bread maker but I do use a kitchen Aid.
Try the windowpane test. It will show if your gluten's are developing.
Baker’s Techniques: How to do the Windowpane Test when Kneading Bread
The windowpane test is one of the best ways to tell if you’ve sufficiently kneaded your bread dough, though it can sound like a pretty bizarre instruction when you come across it in a recipe! Here’s what you do…First, cut off a small piece of the dough about the size of a golf ball.
www.thekitchn.com
Also if the stuff your making is not edible, slice it dry it and make bread crumbs. At least its not going to waste.
Or feed it to the dogs.