iMac for internet use?

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
What's the opinion on this? Use an iMac exclusively for internet use and keep a Window/Intel PC for non-internet use? My daughter's XP Pro machine was hacked so is the Apple machine more resisitent? Is there anti-spyware for apple operating systems?

Flavius Aetius
 

tsherry

Membership Revoked
I use Macs exclusively. This is being typed on a 1ghz iMac flat panel, next to it is a 450mhz older-style iMac; my son is on line using a G4-450mhz, daughter on an iMac 450DV; at work I use a twin 1.8ghz G5. Portability is found on my old powerbook, still works fine, just a little out of date. Networking was literally, plug and play. No manual settings or configuration nightmares necessary, the Macs did them on their own. I do use a firewall, but don't know why. Never had anyone try to get in. I think the Mac floozled them.

No viruses. Ever. This might be why the DOD and CIA are rumored to be using them heavily.

Software wise, I use Apple's Safari, which is much more stable than Exploder; MS Office; Adobe Creative Suite, and a couple of CAD programs.

The useful life on a Mac is about 5 years. About 2.5 on a PC.

Also, be sure to remember to add up how many 'security updates' you do with windoze. We have a half dozen of them at work, and last year, they averaged an update...a day.

Talk about lost productivity!

Good luck.
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
I agree with all above. I have no security or firewall and have never had a virus, spyware or any other attack.

No wait, there was a virus that hit the Macs back in the late 80s but it did not come from the internet.

BTW, normally I would not recommend waiting if someone needs a new computer but Apple will introduce new products at the end of this month. It is really hard to predict what Apple will do. They are really good at keeping secrets but the hottest rumor is an imac without a monitor for $500. Supposedly it is made specifically for windows users who are fed up fighting the internet bad guys. Supposedly you could use your existing monitor. The event is close enough to consider waiting.

Switching comes at a cost. I wrote this post and this. to help people considering a switch.

Feel free to PM or email me if you have questions that you do not want to post here.
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thanks for the replies. It's what I suspected. I am very seriously considering buying a new Dell but using it exclusiuvely for off-line programs. There simply are software programs I use that are not available for Mac, but I am tired of the daily virus attacks on Window machines.

On ebay I noticed G4 1.25 ghz imac's going for around $1,000 which represents quite a drop from their new prices. If you are just surfing the net, I personally don't see the need for much faster processor's (a lot of what I do is reading text: the slow part is me).

I wasn't aware of the new lower priced imac's due out; should one wait?

Thanks!

Flavius Aetius
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
Anyone contemplating buying a mac for non mission critical work should wait until after the end of january. The pattern has been fixed for a long time. New products will be introduced and existing product will drop in price.

Flavius,

I have helped many people make the transition to the mac and vice versa. I always hear people say that their favorite software is not available on the mac. It is true that there are many software packages only for windows but 9 out of 10 times I have found an effecient way to get the same job done. People are usually amazed to find out what is available since most big box discount stores don't stock mac stuff. There has also been a big change since OS X. Since the mac OS is linux based many great speciality programs have been ported over. Sometimes mac users will just run the software in linux. Many of my clients run Windows OS on their macs too. They use their mac OS for everything except that one special software package that isn't available for the mac.

Maybe you have exhausted the research and did not find what you need but I wanted to let you my experiences.

But like I said in one of posts. When a person becomes a master on a platform and specific software, the cost of switching can be high. Labor is the most expensive variable in computer use. Cost of hardware and software is but a drop in the bucket.

The virus fight is also labor. A switch to mac means you will be trading on-going labor for a one time up front labor. To each his own.
 

troglodyte

Inactive
While I'm all in favor of people buying Macs (anything that'll give Microsoft one more poke in the eye is fine by me), its not strictly necessary if you're just trying to avoid viruses. A router/firewall plus the use of Firefox for browsing, Thunderbird for email, and a free AVG for viruses and a free AdAware for spyware keep my Windows PCs running fine. Add in a little common sense too (e.g. don't run attachments, etc). I never get viruses.

The main reason Macs don't have these severe virus problems is that the smaller user base makes the Mac a smaller target, plus these viruses need to be developed on some platform and most of the hackers have PCs, so they tend to develop viruses for what they use. (What idiot would spend $2000 for a Mac JUST so that he can write viruses for it???) It also helps that MacOS is much more elegantly designed and will have less bugs to exploit, but even so... the majority of PC viruses exploit user stupidity instead of OS bugs -- OS bugs can be patched but user stupidity could be permanent. :)

I used to be a "Mac person" long ago, from roughly 1987-1995. There were tons of viruses then, mostly spreading by floppy and by download from a BBS (there wasn't much Internet connectivity then to get viruses from). I ran a free little app called Disinfectant that took care of all the viruses. I'm out of touch and have long since lost track of the current state of viruses for Mac though.
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
troglodyte said:
While I'm all in favor of people buying Macs (anything that'll give Microsoft one more poke in the eye is fine by me), its not strictly necessary if you're just trying to avoid viruses. A router/firewall plus the use of Firefox for browsing, Thunderbird for email, and a free AVG for viruses and a free AdAware for spyware keep my Windows PCs running fine. Add in a little common sense too (e.g. don't run attachments, etc). I never get viruses.
That is correct but most people don't seems to be able to stay on top of the situation. We are also talking about spyware and other malware. The problem with depending on security software is that they can not predict and are only able to react to a situation after it develops. There are always many thousands of people who get infected with the latest stuff no matter how diligent they are. Sometimes it depends on how many people have you in their email lists.

A person who is good on a windows machine, understands the risks and is capable of maintaining their security should not switch.

The main reason Macs don't have these severe virus problems is that the smaller user base makes the Mac a smaller target, plus these viruses need to be developed on some platform and most of the hackers have PCs, so they tend to develop viruses for what they use. (What idiot would spend $2000 for a Mac JUST so that he can write viruses for it???)
This is a myth. Virus writers don't buy windows machines to just to create viruses either. This issue has been looked at by a couple of research companies. Macs only have 3% market penetration but that is 10s of millions of computers. There are a equal proportional amount of script kiddies in that population. It only takes a handfull to wreck things. In addition there has been virus writers that have bought macs because of the challenge. They were tired of all the mac people bragging about the lack of attacks. In fact there are many mac viruses circulating but the hardware and software design prevent large outbreaks or damaging consequenses.
It also helps that MacOS is much more elegantly designed and will have less bugs to exploit, but even so... the majority of PC viruses exploit user stupidity instead of OS bugs -- OS bugs can be patched but user stupidity could be permanent. :)
Are you saying windows users are stupidier than mac users? I hope not because that is just not true. There are plenty of stupid mac users. Lucky for them they stumbled onto a computer platform that is not very susceptible to malware.

I used to be a "Mac person" long ago, from roughly 1987-1995. There were tons of viruses then, mostly spreading by floppy and by download from a BBS (there wasn't much Internet connectivity then to get viruses from). I ran a free little app called Disinfectant that took care of all the viruses.
What is a "Mac person"?
I'm out of touch and have long since lost track of the current state of viruses for Mac though.
Now you tell us.
 

troglodyte

Inactive
Contrasaur, I am not insulting either PC or Mac users; neither are necessarily stupid by using either computer... perhaps you're too sensitive. I use (and develop on) Windows and highly respect Macs. I stopped owning Macs at home and switched to PCs for employment purposes. I am agnostic when it comes to the PC vs. Mac debate. Virus writers can exploit the ignorance of users whether they are on Macs or PCs, thus bypassing any attempt by the OS or the applications at preventing security problems.

And I still insist that most of the viruses are on Windows. To date, I have never been emailed a single Mac virus to my PC. But, plenty of PC-only viruses have arrived... in the form of .EXE's, fake trojan screen savers, VB script, etc. All things that are harmless for a Mac. Its definitely a bigger problem for Windows but Mac users should still beware.

To the original poster, I would recommend you get either a Windows PC or a Mac depending on which you think you'd like more. I wouldn't necessarily switch to Mac just for security reasons. Weigh all the variables and determine what's best for you.
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
Trogladyte, I am sorry I misinterpreted your language and am glad that you are above the childish mac vrs windows debates.

You are correct that there are many more windows trouble makers. I did not say otherwise. I only corrected the myth that less macs are the reason they don't get attacked. It is really a moot point. If macs seldom get malware because there are few bad guys with macs, that is good enough for me. For whatever reason, it is not happening and that is reason enough for people to consider switching.

Your advice to Flavius to weigh all variables is right on. I have been attempting to define some of those variables. Your advice to get what you like is correct if Flavius is in it for a hobby. Otherwise I would recommend getting the tool that would help him be most productive and leave emotions out of the decision.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
IIRC, OS/X is BSD Unix, not Linux. And make no mistake, Unix has security holes as well. The reason Macs don't get viruses is partly because NO ONE USES THEM. (At least, only a tiny fraction of folks use them.) Now lest you take this as a personal attack against Macs, I got my start in computers as a service guy for Apple computers. I know the quality of the gear, and it's first-rate. BUT - You get more bang for the $ with as PC.

I have my PC behind a hardware firewall, and use the Mozilla products for browser and mail client (Firefox and Thunderbird). I have ZERO virus problems.
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
And I now own and run 3 windows machines and 2 Macs. I manage a room full of engineers that have all sorts of things as I said in the linked posts. I am not anti-mac or anti-windows. I am against bad information.

A statement that "no one uses macs" is misleading and not helpful to Flavious or anyone else. Apple is one of the most successful and dynamic companies in the country. There are about 25 million mac users. There is continual effort to attack the macs and they generally fail. The idea that if there were billions of mac users like windows, then the macs would suffer the same fate is a myth or meme that got started years ago but is just not true. It has been repeated by many in the mainstream press. Here is the story:
snip
I also wrote that Mac OS X and Linux are virus-free because they offer virus writers a much smaller “audience” than Windows -- a notion that’s been much repeated in the press, most recently last week’s BusinessWeek cover story. That, as it turns out, is a myth, no matter who repeats it. There’s a much bigger reason virus writers don’t like Mac OS X and Linux.

“Unix [which underlies Mac OS X] and Linux ARE more secure,” wrote one reader. “They have been developed, open-source style, by people who know exactly what they are doing. Unix and Linux have had at least 10 years of battling hackers to better themselves. This leads to an extremely secure environment.”

Many of you also pointed out simple design decisions that make Mac OS X and Linux much more secure than Windows XP. For example:

* Windows comes with five of its ports open; Mac OS X comes with all of them shut and locked. (Ports are back-door channels to the Internet: one for instant-messaging, one for Windows XP’s remote-control feature, and so on.) These ports are precisely what permitted viruses like Blaster to infiltrate millions of PC’s. Microsoft says that it won’t have an opportunity to close these ports until the next version of Windows, which is a couple of years away.

* When a program tries to install itself in Mac OS X or Linux, a dialog box interrupts your work and asks you permission for that installation -- in fact, requires your account password. Windows XP goes ahead and installs it, potentially without your awareness.

* Administrator accounts in Windows (and therefore viruses that exploit it) have access to all areas of the operating system. In Mac OS X, even an administrator can’t touch the files that drive the operating system itself. A Mac OS X virus (if there were such a thing) could theoretically wipe out all of your files, but wouldn’t be able to access anyone else’s stuff -- and couldn’t touch the operating system itself.

* No Macintosh e-mail program automatically runs scripts that come attached to incoming messages, as Microsoft Outlook does.

Evidently, I’m not the only columnist to have fallen for this old myth; see http://www.baltimoresun.com/technology/custom/pluggedin/bal-mac082803,0,1353478.column for another writer’s more technical apology. But the conclusion is clear: Linux and Mac OS X aren’t just more secure because fewer people use them. They’re also much harder to crack right out of the box.
end snip whole story at NY Times

Our work team does not get viruses either because we follow a strict security policy. Some people don't want to do that. My experiences with a survey in a surburan community and the daily phone calls I get for help strongly indicate that the majority of windows users are failing at maintaining security. I don't know why. I also get calls from Mac users so I am not claiming they are trouble free but malware is seldom the subject.

There are viruses that are OS independant so a Mac user should also have security procedures but they are just like the windows users. Despite all the warnings they will also fail to do this. The difference is mac users have a much better chance of avoiding damage due to their neglect.

Security slackers should consider switching.

Getting the most bang for the buck depends on what a person needs to accomplish and their skills. The price of the hardware and software is one of the most insignificant variables in the cost of using a computer.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
I stand by my statement about quantity. 25 million Macs worldwide vs hundreds of millions of PCs. Virus promulgators want the widest possible distribution of their "product". While Unix *is* inherently more secure than WinDoze will ever be on its BEST day, the fact remains that the primary reason they aren't targetted is because there's no money to be made from it. These days, the criminal hackers are out to make money from hijacking and infecting PCs. While there are many Macs out there, from a stistical PoV the number is tiny.

Most banks and financial institutions (for example) aren't going to be using Macs, and the criminals know it. If the situation were reversed vis-a-vis Mac and PC numbers, I guarantee you that we'd be having this same discussion, but with the hero/villain roles reversed as well. Ultimately, there is NO O/S that's hacker-proof. And if there were, it still wouldn't be "idiot-proof" (which is what the vast majority of computer users are, at least when they "get behind the wheel" of that computer...)
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
Well, Ok. I happen to believe otherwise.

We disagree on a minor and moot point. Whatever the reason, Macs users have almost zero virus problems and that is reason enough for many people to consider switching.

If I could be most productive on an Osborne computer with wordstar and dbase then that is what I would use.

Actually, I wish I had an Osborne. There is a glaring hole in my museum inventory.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Contra:

<a href="http://search.ebay.com/osborne-computer_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQcatrefZC6QQsotrtypeZ1QQsotrvalueZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch">CLICK HERE</a>
 

von Koehler

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I have helped many people make the transition to the mac and vice versa. I always hear people say that their favorite software is not available on the mac. It is true that there are many software packages only for windows but 9 out of 10 times I have found an effecient way to get the same job done.

The programs that I am referring to are some Chinese and Gaelic language courses. The author does not offer a MAC version.

Flavius Aetius (I bet you would be surprised to see what my Irish name is!)
 

Coast Watcher

Membership Revoked
Flavius, my current employer uses iMacs almost exclusively, at least fifty of them, with only four or five PC machines in the entire building for accounting and a couple of specialized requirements. Our two IT guys spend up to half their time troubleshooting the PCs. The rest of the time they're busy servicing the servers and fighting the spam deluge. The iMacs and the "iFruit" Macs they replaced are bulletproof. We've never even lost a hard drive. I've used Apple machines exclusively since 1983, in my home and at work. Never had a virus and had only one go bad on me -- a new machine that got knocked around in transit. The Apple folks delivered a new one *in person to my house* the same day I called to complain, sent it up from Boston strapped into the front seat of the tech's car.

Maine seventh and eighth-graders are issued Apple Notebooks at the beginning of each school year. Their survival rate is excellent, despite the knocking around they get from rambunctious teens.

BTW, I really like the Safari browser. Much nicer than Explorer or Netscape IMO.

CW
 

Contrasaur

Inactive
Surprise, the rumors were right. Too soon to tell whether it is a winner.

mac_mini.jpg
 
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