For city/suburban dwellers

[Cardinal]

When the crunch comes, in whatever form it will take, there will be some of us stuck in the city or in a suburban situation.
Regardless of how much ammo you may have stocked, survivability will be increased if folks can find a way of making their neighbors their allies.
This thread is for that type of discussion.
Bruce Beach does have some good ideas regarding recovery from Nuke events. The faster survivors can organize themselves, the faster life becomes bearable for everyone.

DF and I are going to be taking CERT (Certified Emergency Rescue Training) in our city. We are doing this in order to take advantage of the free classes being offered(I am going to take the short-wave radio course) and to network with others (LEOs, et.al) who are of like mind.

My first priority, should things break down utterly, would be to round up everyone on my block who wishes to participate, and form a co-op.
-This would be a voluntary group where those with arms would form a militia for purposes of protection of group members.

-It would also require that everyone bring what resources they have to common meals to share (thus stretching what everybody has)

-This would be designed to buy us time (and give us hope) to allow planted gardens to begin producing food for everyone in the co-op.

Other ideas? Critiques welcomed as long as you have solutions for the problems you see. I am interested in a serious discussion of community survival plans.

 

[cannoncocker]

Is there nota Dept. of Homeland Security course offered in most towns and cities? Nayone know more about good training offered by the .gov?

 

[Unlikely Warrior]

This is great for me.

I live in the burbs and am constantly measuring up my neighbors. I figure it's like this ... I don't have to be the best, I just have to be better than those around me.

That said, I would rather make friends and allies and save my ammo for the real threats. So ... how do you identify yourself in these neighborhoods. I mean, the last thing I want to do is expose that my family is prepared and then make myself a target when it hits the fan. It's a tough call.

Really looking for ideas here, guys ...

 

[Cardinal]

CC, the CERT program is offered in many cities across the country. It began in LA, when a large group of volunteers lost their lives during some emergency they had, due to lack of training. So the city decided to start a program to give would-be volunteers training. This is what our program looks like, and some of what is offered:
http://www.ci.daytona-beach.fl.us/police/cert.htm

UW, I would not "identify" myself to surrounding neighbors, unless it is as a CERT volunteer, or a person who wants to start a neighborhood watch. This would be a good way to introduce your self to neighbors without blowing your prepper cover, and to implant in their minds that you are a community leader.

My plans go into affect AFTER society breaks down (think, Katrina and NOLA, on the 2nd or 3rd day) when it is CLEAR to all that we are on our own. In other words, it is a plan to stave off the rioting, looting, panic attacks.

 

[The Freeholder]

My take on suburban/small town survivalism is not so much of a worry about gangs of mutant zombie bikers invading. I honestly don't think that won't happen beyond isolated incidents. You may have incidents with neighbors who demand that since you "have so much" you should share with them, but that's pretty easily solvable, (BANG! No, I'm not sharing, thank you so much for asking. Just don't get caught without a weapon....)

My big worry is trying to set up some sort of mostly self-sufficient (at the neighborhood level, say) group. The problem as I see it is that you don't have enough land to raise enough food to feed yourselves, you don't have ready access to water, and your sanitation issues will be dificult to meet without a functioning sewer and trash system.

Not to mention that most homes built in the last 40 years have no provision for heating or cooling beyond the standard heat pump. Besides, where will you get wood for all those wood stoves, even if they were there?

A surburban area that is "out in the country", so to speak, one with lots of 2-5 acres, might be a good place to be if you have to stay close to an urban environment for work reasons. There would be enough land to have woodlots, pigs, goats and chickens, mabe a few cows for milk, and enough garden space to keep everyone fed. You'd still have the problem of water. Wells can be drilled, but irrigation water will probably not exist. You'll be dependant on Mother Nature for enough rains to keep the crops growing, rain at the right times, no wid storms at the wrong times and so on.

Even if it worked fairly well, it's be a hand-to-moouth existence.

 

[Cardinal]

My take on suburban/small town survivalism is not so much of a worry about gangs of mutant zombie bikers invading. I honestly don't think that won't happen beyond isolated incidents. You may have incidents with neighbors who demand that since you "have so much" you should share with them, but that's pretty easily solvable, (BANG! No, I'm not sharing, thank you so much for asking. Just don't get caught without a weapon....)

I am smack dab in the city, and there will be mutant zombies (lookin for their next fix, or whatever) so a well ordered militia will be necessary. And my plan is to enlist the neighbors, as I don't care how much ammo I have got, it won't be enough to fight off everybody, and I am not going to stand by and watch the two little girls who live next door to me starve anyway.

My big worry is trying to set up some sort of mostly self-sufficient (at the neighborhood level, say) group. The problem as I see it is that you don't have enough land to raise enough food to feed yourselves, you don't have ready access to water, and your sanitation issues will be dificult to meet without a functioning sewer and trash system.

There is actually plenty of land, it just has to be utilized for something other than "grass'. There is also plenty of fertiliser at Wallyworld. Then there is all that waste matter that will have to be disposed of somehow...Compost? The Chinese do it.

Not to mention that most homes built in the last 40 years have no provision for heating or cooling beyond the standard heat pump. Besides, where will you get wood for all those wood stoves, even if they were there?

Now, this is a good point. There are trees in the city, and they will be used for cooking fuel. Heating is not a consideration where I am.

A surburban area that is "out in the country", so to speak, one with lots of 2-5 acres, might be a good place to be if you have to stay close to an urban environment for work reasons. There would be enough land to have woodlots, pigs, goats and chickens, mabe a few cows for milk, and enough garden space to keep everyone fed. You'd still have the problem of water. Wells can be drilled, but irrigation water will probably not exist. You'll be dependant on Mother Nature for enough rains to keep the crops growing, rain at the right times, no wid storms at the wrong times and so on.

Even if it worked fairly well, it's be a hand-to-moouth existence.

Yes, I imagine it will be. But that beats the crap outa non-existance, right?

 

[CelticRose]

Where we are in Florida, better than 90% of our neighbors are very old / elderly...... And as my huband hassignificant helath problems, I'll have my hands full just taking care of us....... I hope that those who are eldery have family to help them; this is not an option for us......

That said, could they offer even minimal assistance? Not too likely.... Most have severe health problems themselves.....

I'm doing what I can now to take care of my husband and myself..... There are a few folks who, should they find their way to us, we would help without a moments hesitation..... And were the situation reversed; they would do the same for us........

 

[Caplock50]

Hmmm, starting up a 'community' after TSHTF. Why stay where you are? In my little country town and in other towns where I have lived, the schools are surrounded by sturdy fences. There's plenty of land for cultivation. Playgrounds for the many kids you'll likely have. And many rooms that can be converted into living quarters, storage rooms and such. And there's the library with all those books full of all kinds of knowledge. And the garage for 'auto shop' classes, already stocked with tools. The carpender shop already stocked.
There's many reasons why a school would be a good place to try the start up, and I'm sure you will think of them.

 

[Cardinal]

Cap, if we can get out, we will. But there may be circumstances keeping us here.
My ideas are for those truly "stuck" in the city.
But I like what you brought up. In smaller communities, it should be much easier to reconstruct quickly.

 

[hitssquad]

Anti-senescence vs passive self-mutilation

Where we are in Florida, better than 90% of our neighbors are very old / elderly. And as my huband hassignificant helath problems, I'll have my hands full just taking care of us. I hope that those who are eldery have family to help them

This why I suggest to people that they make anti-senescence a priority. The link describes an example of what I would consider to be a reasonably broad anti-senescence regimen:
http://morelife.org/personal/health/his-regimen.html

 

[hitssquad]

Why stay where you are?

The races which created civilization tend to prefer it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburb#American_suburbs_today

 

[rolph]

We're new residents in the past year in a small town. One approach that I have used with neighbors is bitching about the high cost of utilities. I don't delve into how likeminded my neighbors might be, but in talking to a few many want to drill wells and go solar, wood burning etc. Everyone is into guns and the attitude is don't mess with me or mine. We watch out for each other if anything is out of the ordinary in the neighborhood.
.
In that respect we are on the same page as our neighbors and working towards less dependency on the system and planting gardens, etc. That is one of the reasons we chose this town, because there is a nice mix of rich and poor and they all seem to get along.

Talking about the high price of utilities opened the door to communicate with my neighbors.

 

[workercampers]

CC, the CERT program is offered in many cities across the country. It began in LA, when a large group of volunteers lost their lives during some emergency they had, due to lack of training. So the city decided to start a program to give would-be volunteers training. This is what our program looks like, and some of what is offered:
http://www.ci.daytona-beach.fl.us/police/cert.htm

My husband and I both went through the CERT program in SC and it was WELL worth the time and effort. There are also numerous other classes, offered free of charge, aafter completion that are great.

workercampers

 

[Cardinal]

Where we are in Florida, better than 90% of our neighbors are very old / elderly...... And as my huband hassignificant helath problems, I'll have my hands full just taking care of us....... I hope that those who are eldery have family to help them; this is not an option for us......

That said, could they offer even minimal assistance? Not too likely.... Most have severe health problems themselves.....

I'm doing what I can now to take care of my husband and myself..... There are a few folks who, should they find their way to us, we would help without a moments hesitation..... And were the situation reversed; they would do the same for us........

Rose, are you in an over 55 village?

 

[Cardinal]

Bumb cause this is an important prep. The art of organizing clueless people,so they are working for you, not against you.

 

[CelticRose]

No, Cardinal; we aren't living in a '55 & over, active lifestyle community' ... It just happens that there are few people / families under 50, in out immediate neighborhood....... At 50 myself, I'm the 'kid'.....20 to 40 years younger than most

Our neighbors are nice; we've both made a point of talking with them when we see them; I've taken over trays of cookies and such when I've been in a baking mood........ But other than that, we have nothing in common...... As well, many of them of somewhat frail of health......

Due to my husbands' health; I've joked that a 70 year old nun, has more of a social life than do I

So I've made our plans based on just we two and our fur-child, of course!

 

[Cardinal]

This thread makes my point. The blogger states repeatedly that for safety, people MUST team up with others.

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=194662

 

[CelticRose]

I agree Cardinal.......... But..... I also have to be realistic...... While I would try to mitigate (as much as it didn't debilitate my my husband and I ) the situation for our neighbors; they need as much, if not more care than does my husband..... We have no other kin, they do; most within a few miles..... Of course in most cases they are in their 60's and 70's....... And not to make gross assumptions based soley upon age....... A person who is in their 70's or 80's, has profoundly limited vision and mobility....... Or in some cases, has other motor skill impairment and or cognitive problems; is not going to be able to offer anything in the way of helping others......

I know this sounds cold....... And perhaps it is...... But for as long as either my husband and I can remember; our giving to our communities and to others on an individual basis; has been a decidedly one way street.......

An example...... The main VA hospital in Tampa is grossly over extended and underfunded (what else is new?) I asked why there weren't more volunteers to assist patients........ I was told that the usual 'pool' of potential volunteers; namely those who are retired; is not inclined to offer their time........ Now compared to the incredible and fantastic volunteers of either the St Cloud, MN or Minneapolis, MN VA; this is sad...... I considered volunteering at the loca VA outpatient office until I realized that for decades; I've stretched myself to almost a breaking point. to work, take care of our home, help my husband AND volunteer..... Now I've learned that I need to not diminish my care for my husband, in order to help others to a point beyond what is reasonable for myself......

OK....... Before anyone jumps all over me and says that my reasons for not volunteering more might well be the same that others 50 and over and or retired might have; consider this........ Most all the goldf courses around her are filled with that same group........ Ditto the multitude of various recreational groups / clubs that reach out to............? Right; those over 50 and retired........ Maybe then have decided that they've paid their 'dues' and to say "screw everyone else... I'm gonna golf and do as I please until I drop"........

I've paid my dues and am still paying........ But I have to weigh what I can do with what I need to do with what I have a moral obligation, to do for others......



Perhaps I'm jaded; who knows?

 

[Cardinal]

Actually Rose, my point was not "ask what you can do for others"...it is, how can all of us make plans for organizing these clueless wretches who will be on your doorstep (unless you bug out) asking for YOUR help.

All I am suggesting is, if you can step outside and offer up a plan...
"OK, here is what we do..."
You are then less likely to have these folks as resentful enemies.

Katrina's other lesson, was that once the immediate food and water needs of folks are met, they will naturally be inclined to pull together.
It is the lack of food and water scare that makes them aggressive.

What plans can we come up with now, to implement then.

 

[CelticRose]

Good point, Cardinal...... And I see your point........ But, in order for us to present a plan to our neighbors for 'mutual assistance'; they'd need a 180 on their own mind set..... And I don't think that's going to happen...... After our first experience with 'canes the first few days / weeks after we relocated to FL (Frances & Jeannie) I realized, we'd be on our own.......

Even though we went out and secured extra ice and things and gave them to some of our neighbors..... And considering that we'd been in our home less than 72 hours before Frances hit and knocked out our power (which meant we had almost zero prep time for it ) and they'd all lived here for decades..... Well... I sort of formed both opinions (not all negative) and plans based upon their reactions and or their attitudes towards being prepared........

Example...... My husband joked with one of them that I was his 'boy scout' ..... I had a bag packed with things in case we opted to evac during a 'cane........ They laughed....... At he and I..... And said I was wasting energy...... No hurricane could bother this area...... And this was after the devastation of Katrina ........ Sorry; but they are clueless and assuming someone / some gov't entity will take care of them...... And what is appaling to me, is that our neighbors are all people who worked their whole lives and are not of a 'welfare mentality'........

Granted..... In a worse case scenario, I'll do the best for my husband and I..... Be that hunker down or bug out..... ..... And would hope that our neighbors had a back up plan of their own..... Though their actions / attitudes indicate that they don't....... So...............

I would do for us; harden my heart and well........ harden our defenses, as well........ Helping others who are helping themselves I will always do..... Diverting / draining my energy / resources to help those who will not even make a plan; let alone the effort to do something for themselves, is not a viable option for us...........

 

[barb43]

We may have a mutant zombie gang from the next circle over in our subdivision - this is a quiet place, except for that street. About all we've done is try to get to know the closest neighbors. The retired 1SG and his wife directly across the street are pretty like-minded with us. Otherwise, we'd either end up taking care of the little Korean widow next door (she's not the pleasantest, but we get along 'okay' most days) or she'd be taking care of 30 friends and family and they'd totally ignore us so long as we left them alone and kept some traps set on our side of the fence (haha). Otherwise, we have new neighbors on either side of the retired 1SG who none of us have had a chance to get to know . . . There really is not much else that we can think of to do, with the idea of organizing in advance.

This is a great topic to think about tho' . . . Not sure we'd bug out (no particular place to go except the house in the mountains - tho' we've warned the renters there that if it ever came to it, we'd be showing up! They're preppers too, so they've got a "more the merrier" attitude.). There's plenty of food around here, and wood for fires too. We could probably last a long time if we weren't overrun or forced out of our homes by some governmental agency (that's why we'd bug out).

 

[Infoscout]

Try to think of ways to utilize the most out of your community. Do you have a homeowners association? what committee's fall under the association?

I dislike homeowner associations as much as the next libertarian, but this is a unique situation you can use to your advantage. The main thing is, you know the people in your neighborhood. You know who the hotheads are, and who the cool heads are. You will also learn your own short comings when it comes to social skills as well. Through my association, I have learned that about 70% of my neighbors are armed. And only one of them, I am concerned about as far as having common sense goes. I also know how one select nationality has moved in into three houses in close proximity to one another, because they are all related. They are good people and have some survival skills I believe I could learn. JOin the community watch group, or the archetectual committee. Pratice the art of compromise and negotiation. These are skills sadly lacking in american society, and you should have these going forward. Read "dig Your well Before You Are Thirsty" you want to have a reputation in your community of a problem solver. If you expect to have to set a guard schedule, or convoy to work or to the grocery store, you need to have a positive reputation. What if all your neighbors didn't really like you much? You have to work on the social skills (I think that is more important than cans of tuna)

I do not believe in the end/apoolyptic/zombie stuff, I am more worried about a depression or Argentina type of situation, so when I meet people who come from other countries who have had upheaval in the last few years, I ask questions to kinda learn about their mindset.

Being in an urban environement has also changed my view on personal defense. I am less enamored with big 308 rifles and more settled with 223 or pistol caliber carbines. I know, I will get flamed for that, but I am very confident with my skills, using an ar, 1022, 12g shotty, and handgun. In a survival sitrep, the handgun will rule our world. Get one, learn to use it, and make sure you are satisfied with its magazine capacity. In an urban situation, you won't be aiming and doing double taps, you will be shooting and moving. Unfortunetly, capacity matters. I will get flamed for that too. I would add, that protection should include mace/pepper spray, and good quality flashlights. And communication!!!!!!!! Oh by the way, do you reload? Think that you should look into it? Me tooo!

I hope everyone has taken a hard look at their vehicle selection. I drive a van, no souped up SUV, or pickup truck loaded with cages and gas cans, just a normal van. It does not scream for attention, and there is room in there. Also, if I have to remake myself in a depression type scenario, I can use the van for various odd jobs I may have to do to keep food on the table. I also am saving for a good quality bike, so I could do grocery trips if I had to on the bike to save on gas. I am working on seeing who in my hood rides bikes, because if we had to we could convoy. I have a pack that is just big enough to carry essentials purchased at the store, I practiced during an ice storm years ago, when I walked to the store just to see if I could how long it would take and how much I could carry home. I was surprised by the results.
The one thing I am in the process of purchasing is quality gas cans, the good ones, not surplus. I would be happy to have about twenty gallons per car stored away.

Look for alternate ways to make a living. I feel my job is sercure, but I also feel that it may get dangerous to the point of, "I don't think I want to do this anymore". Would your job be secure if gas went to $10 a gallon, and milk was $20 a gallon? Sharecropping might make a comeback around here if that happens.

IN an urban enviro, you gotta think out of the box, you have to be both politician and tactician. Plan/Practice everything. YOu have to not draw attention to yourself, at the same time, keep your family fed and healthy.

 

[ainitfunny]

One of the things that tend to gum up such self-reliant initiatives by a few people is the wail: "It won't be long, help will be coming, all we have to do is wait patiently then the government and others will come and help us return things to normal, there is no need to re-invent society, this is not the end of the world."

There will be a probably significant number of people who will want to wait for "certified" people to come and help them. They won't want "amateurs" giving them first aid and aren't about to choose anyone whom they will obey to lead recovery efforts. They will expect "Big Brother" to come to their rescue and they will undermine every effort that visibly shows that their hopes are futile.

 

[Cardinal]

ainit, that is one reason I suggested the co-op plan. Those who want to join will help fend off the ones who want to stick their heads in the sand.

Infoscout, that is exactly the sort of idea I was looking for. There is a lot of good practical advice in your post, thanks for contributing.
I, too, have a van, for all the reasons you mentioned. You can also sleep in it if you have to.

 

[timbo]

If this thread is about TEOTWAWKI and not a local disaster that in time things will get back to normal then we need to really start thinking....of moving.

But rather than running off into the woods and leave shelter,resources other people we need to think where in our very immediate vicinity there is a place that for the common good we can protect ourselves,create provisions,(such as gardening) and think of a long term type of lifestyle that will benefit all.

Cappy hit on it in his post. I read and participated over at the Squirrel's forum and the topic was some type of fortified building or group of buildings that would provide protection.

Protection has to come first because that is the first thing that can overwhelm you and all the prep food in the world wont be worth anything.

So think, where in your area is there some type of large building that is made of stone,brick IOW, fireproof? A building that can provide some security from wandering low lives that are intent on stealing what you have?

Ideally it would be a govt. building and being made of this material it would be old.
Are there limited entrances,exits,windows? Can they be boarded up to provide better security?
With luck they may even have an inner court......maybe like an older apartment complex? Is there water near by? If its a school, do they have a machine shop,repair garage etc?

The argument at Squirrel's was that in this day and age with the weapons available that a fort-like structure would never make it. My argument is that most if not all people wouldnt have the weapons to penetrate stone walls of sufficient thickness.
For centuries forts or castles saved many people from marauders. It also protected food stuffs and domestic animals from theft as well.

Im afraid most neighbor type streets would be very hard to defend. If the bad guys would cooperate and come from certain directions,then yes it would be possible. But of course they wont cooperate will they?

 

[Infoscout]

Timbo I agree with your synopsis, but I also come back to how build social skills with different personalities. I think you are getting at (please correct me if i am wrong) a group co-opting now before anything too bad happens, then they are prepared behind their fortress to handle situations. That is awesome. That is way beyond my preps, and I have a funny story for you.

I have three buddies, we have all known each other for almost twenty years. There is alot of water under the bridge between us ( I say water, after it was recycled through the human body, it began as cold to lukewarm beer). I trust these guys completely, they are basically family. we all own firearms, and are varying skills with our selected versions of protection. We have tried to come together and decide on one caliber for handguns and one for a homeland defense rifle. Well, we started that discussion about three years ago, and well, it hasn't moved much beyond that. I have learned to take that as it is. we have all agreed on the 45, but different makers. On the rifle, well still talking!

What I am getting at is, no one unless you already have those skills, is going to be able to get back to the land just like that. There has to be a level of cooperation and trust. That has to built over time, even before a major disruption. I am no farmer, nor will I ever be. I might be able to pass as a decent carpenter, or food preparer, but I am no farmer.

 

[Cardinal]

Timbo, this thread is for anyone who may be stuck for an indefinite period of time is an urban deteriorated situation and unable to move.
The people prep skills I am talking about is to assist in survival when you cannot bug out for the time being anyway, and really are going to have to deal with the guy next door, or the group in the apartment building across the street, or whatever.
Being able to organize people so they do not panic and make rash decisions (like trying to take what you have) is a valuable prep skill.
Like farming, fishing and hunting.

 

[timbo]

My point was you may have to move 50-100 feet and find a better place than a block of homes.

You can talk to your neighbors as I have for the last 15 years and have got to know them quite well. I live on a dead end street and the 40 homes or so, I know most of them and they know me.

I guess that ends my discussion on this. Sorry about that.

 

[Cardinal]

My point was you may have to move 50-100 feet and find a better place than a block of homes.

You can talk to your neighbors as I have for the last 15 years and have got to know them quite well. I live on a dead end street and the 40 homes or so, I know most of them and they know me.

I guess that ends my discussion on this. Sorry about that.

I really don't see folks moving out of their homes unless their homes get unlivable due to Cane damage.
In NOLA people stayed in their homes, they just built barricades.

 

[CelticRose]

OK.......... In a relatively 'finite' SHTF sort of situation...... Bird Flu or $5 & up gas as examples..... I look at it this way.....

Where we are in Florida I can have at least container gardens for some fresh foods, most all year ..... Nice to suppliment our prep stock..... Though I've noticed that few of the people in our neighborhood have 'eating gardens'; even if they have incredible and lovely decorative gardens....... So long as the markets near our home were open; I can walk or ride my bike to get perishables.....

In am epidemic; I would curtail all outside contact for my husband; as his immune system is not the greatest and better to avoid than to treat; right? I would practice limited contact with the 'outside' and clean up / change clothes prior to coming back into the house........ Anything brought into the house would be sanitized / disinfected first.........

If gas becomes prohibitive due to cost or is in limited supply; only his most important medical visits would continue..... And if we lost power due to a 'cane...... The gennie would run only when his health became to be compromised..... Unless of course we'd decided to bug out.....

We're both of the mind that you can always do 'so much'...... and that is based on ones' personal ability / situation / location and other factors ......

One thing which is a fact of life around here, is that due to the advanced ages of most of our neighbors; properties often change ownership........ In fact in the past 6 weeks, the neighbors on both sides of us, have lost their spouses ........ So it's only a matter of time before they likely put their homes on the market and who knows who will buy them and how that will affect our neighborhood..........