Canning Jars the final rant...

[Sarrah]

Every season for the past 4 or so years I have been ranting about canning jars losing their seals. It has gotten so bad DH has taken over my rant when he sees hard work going for naught.
The most recent was home grown/canned chicken. Went in to get a jar and sure enough the lid was off a couple of them. They'd only been in the cold room since Feb. Since I have been canning over 35 years and this seal thing is more recent I know it isn't me. Prior to 5 years ago I don't recall ever having a lid fail.
Between Ball and Kerr they owe me a lot of money in lost labour and food. I am convinced the two things they have done is cut back on the quality or thickness of the glass they use in the jars. As well as some new method for the seals on the lids. Perhaps they use less metal and sealer on those as well.

Last Sat. DH took me to the store we know sells Weck jars and we bought a big bunch of them. My scottish heart about shrivelled up when the bill came to $115. DH said when you take into account the cost and time in raising birds killing prepping them pressure canning them then the lids won't hold these will save money in the long run.

I haven't sold my old jars yet. I'm going to give this a good trial first. Anyone else joining the jar revolt with me? Anyone else done this yet?

 

[summerthyme]

Sarrah- this is going to sound dumb, but are you following the WRITTEN instructions ON THE LIDS YOU ARE USING??

It used to be most recommended boiling the lids for a couple of minutes. Now the ones I have only want to be brought up to 180 degrees (not even quite simmering) and then used.

Also, make sure you aren't tightening the rings AT ALL after you remove the jars from the canner.... some folks who have seals failing decide that the rings being loose after processing is the problem, and tighten them- and that breaks or weakens the seal.

I've got to say that I haven't had any trouble with lid failures- either in chicken canned in 2001 and after, or in the newest batches of stuff. Everything from beef stew to chicken to canned beans, pickled beets and canned carrots. If I have a seal failure, it's probably less than 1 in 200.

The other question I'd have is where you're buying and/or storing your lids. The seal material really does seem to lose it's resiliance if it's stored someplace that gets quite hot. I store mine in my basement which never goes above 60 degrees. But even I don't have any control over where they were kept before I bought them....

Another cause for seal failure is tiny scratches or chips on the jar sealing surface. I think some folks damage these when they remove the lid with a knife, rather than using a can opener. It probably sounds nuts, but you can also put tiny scratches on the glass sealing surface with a steel "scrubbie". I wouldn't be surprised if they ARE using a tiny bit less sealing compound, and it doesn't "flow" into the tiny imperfections in older jars as well as it used to.

Also (you probably know all of this already, but if there are others having the same trouble, I might as well touch all bases), you need to let the pressure canner cool down GRADUALLY. Running cold water over it, or worse, removing the weight to "Hurry it up" will force some of the jar contents out of the jars when the vacuum drops rapidly. The food particles that remain between the lid and the jar eventually spoil and ruin the seal.

It's hard to wait if you're doing a whole bunch of food at once and don't have a large canner, but it's necessary. And under NO circumstances should you stack the jars on top of each other, especially during the first 24 hours or so. The seals are still firming up, and are easily disturbed then. It's best to never stack home canned goods and to store them on their own shelves, but at the least, not during the first day or two. I've had to hammer that into the menfolks' heads a few times, when they are helping me carry a bunch of new canning down cellar, and they want to "save trips" by piling the jars into the big kettle. NOT a good idea.

I understand your frustration- that's WAY too much time, effort, money and work invested to lose any of it.

Summerthyme

 

[Gingergirl]

I have used ball jars and lids for about 20 years. Seems like I get a few new cases of jars each season and of course, lots of lids.

The few times I don't get a good seal, I have over filled the jar by just the slightest amount. Lids that pop later were also my own fault for using over ripe produce.

All in all, I haven't had any problems with ball.

With the chicken I asume you are pressure canning. Have you had the gauge checked and calibrated lately? If it doesn't get up to the needed pressure/temperature, the meat could later spoil and pop the lid.

Its a real pain to do here as I have to go to the next county, but I consider it necessary.

Whatever the reason, I hope your canning problem is solved soon. People who don't can don't appreciate just how much work it is.

 

[Dorema]

Weck jars.......... I am green with envy!!!
Dorema

 

[Tadpole]

I haven't had any problems with jars not sealing, and I am still using lids I got in 1999, 2000 and 2001. I stockpiled big time!

I canned chicken, beef, spaghetti sauce, fruit, and garden vegetables through last year, but this year I have slacked badly.

In fact, the only canning I have done this year is jam and butter.

I keep expecting the seals to fail since the lids are so old, but so far it hasn't happened. As soon as it starts, I will throw the old ones out and buy all new ones.

Has anyone ever used Tattler reusable canning lids? They say they will last a lifetime, but that sounds pretty fantastic to me. http://canninglids.com/index2.html

 

[Flagwaver]

Sarrah, thanks for posting this thread. The information shared here is a keeper!

Gingergirl asked - "Have you had the gauge checked and calibrated lately?"

Does anyone here know how to do this him or herself?

The day could come when we don't have the extension service to help so I'm wondering how it's done.

Tadpole, those Tattler lids look really interesting! I'd like to know if anyone has used them too.

 

[notimetospare]

I have some of the Tattler lids, but honestly didn't know that they were still available in today's market. They are plastic and supposed to be reusable time after time. They are so strange looking that I was just afraid to try them, so mine are on jars just storing herbs.
The lids I am using right now are older than 1999. They are probably 10 years old or more from an estate sale. I do boil mine and unfortunately, occasionally I loose a seal. If the jar doesn't seal to begin with, I put it in the frig and use it first.
So far, the only jars I have had that lost their seal after being stored were jars containing food that was slightly greasy, chicken, and baked beans. those are the only ones that I have found later to have the seal come loose. I don't know why it happens, but I believe the grease content plus probably what was posted here about the jar being slightly over full, that might be a factor also. It's definitely worth investigating.
I hope your problem does not continue and something listed here will benefit you. After all the time you invest in canning, it's hard to see some of it go to waste.

Vickie

 

[CopperTopMom]

I just HAVE to ask........

What are weck jars???

Tattler lids??

I do a fair bit of canning and haven't had a major problem with seals letting go. I have never heard of these two items though, are they just available in the states or something?

 

[Gingergirl]

Flagwaver,

I've seen the "machine" and have no idea how to replicate it. I've assumed that if TSHTF, I would be increasing the weight, temperature, or time to be on the safe side...with the decrease in quaility and nutrition. Better than losing the contents.

Notimetospare,

grease on the rims and under the lid will ruin the seal. Filling the jars with something like chili is messy and sometimes difficult to get the rims clean again before processing. Adds more time to the whole project.

 

[Dorema]

Tattler lids are new to me and I am just going to have to check that out.
Weck jelly jars are these svelt, European, elegant looking jars.
Don't I sound crazy?? I have ended up being a jar collector because of my fettish for different looking ones. My kids HATE to stop at a garage sale for fear of buying more jars. They have reported to their father that if there should ever be a tornado, we will all have to perish because there is no room in the cellar because of all my jars......
Seriously tho, I haven't had very many to loose their seal at all but I am a fanatic about wiping the rims before I put the ring and flat on. Seems like it was chicken one that did loose their seal now that I think about it.
Dorema

 

[nchomemaker]

I am some what new to canning, although I did quite a few jars of applesauce and jam in my younger days.
I was foolish to use the lids that came with jars from BIG LOTS and had quite a few not seal properly. I thought it was my own fault. But I realized they are a cheaper quality.
I will only use name brand seals from now on and take special care with wiping the rims off.
This thread has already answered a couple of questions I had such as does the space at the top matter all that much. I didn't have anyone teach me how to can and had to learn as I went. I only did water bath canning when I was younger but I bought my pressure canner a couple years ago. After the first couple times and being nervous, I've learned to love it. Wish I'd had one years ago.

 

[Gingergirl]

nchomemaker ,

I'm also self taught. My mom wouldn't go near anything that wasn't prepackaged for the store. I'm guessing its because of all those years during the depressin that she had to help her mom in the kitchen with the canning.

So for me its been research and trial n error. I too ws very nervous with the pressure canner the first season. Lots of strange noises going on.

Since my successes far outweigh my failures, I can only assume its because most of the methods and equipment are nearly idiot proof. The biggest feature is the time spent standing in the kitchen. Gets harder every year.

 

[Sarrah]

I won't rebut the how to do it posts. I know how to do it.

The posts are excellent information for those starting out however. I am surprised no more folks have had a problem.

One thing I want to add. I often can things in my recycled mayonaise jars. (yes I know the speel about that ) Insert here a small doomer rant about big business and corporate plot. Including disinformation for profit.

Anyway, my point... I have never had a seal fail on those jars. I can in those jars for giving mostly but use them ourselves as well. I have a lot of them currently holding chicken broth with never a problem jar nor seal. The broth is covered in a thin layer of fat as well so it isn't the lack of grease in there. I think they have thicker glass at the sealing point than the newer canner jars.

Onto my Weck jars. They are as you say lovely to look at. The opening is so wide a laddle would fit in there without ever touching a rim. The rubber seals are reusable if they are still perfect and replacement seals are not expensive. No one will be getting anything canned in my Weck jars, no way are they leaving home.

I'm awaiting something to can now. The small amount I have coming out of my garden right now is for dehydrating mostly or eating. I have a big outside solar dehydrater and over the past 6 years or so I've done a lot more preserving using this method. Sure saves time and storage and produces an excellent product. When the black berries ripen I'll make some jam and can some berries. Until I get cukes aplenty no pickles in the near future. Beans are just blooming and not that many plants. I am hoping for at least a few jars from them. Hopefully by next gardening season we've more beds in and that will make for a better harvest.

 

[Laurie the Mom]

Tattler lids...

I have one of those Tattler lids that I ordered as a sample a few years ago. They DO work!! I used it on a jar of dilly beans that I processed in the water bath canner, and then let it sit on the shelf for a couple of years just to see what it would do. Sure enough, the seal held just fine and the beans were perfect when I did finally open it.

I won't use Kerr lids for anything, I have always had trouble with them failing. Ball lids seem to work much better.

Laurie

 

[prudentwatcher]

I wouldn't get rid of your old jars. I use mine to store rice, popcorn, wheat, pasta and the like. It is really humid here and we have trouble with little bugs. I've found that things work better if I do it this way. I don't can much, but I keep extra cases of jars for a TSHTF scenario (and lots of boxes of lids) and since they are going to take up room anyway, I just fill the jars and store them that way.

 

[booger]

I have a big outside solar dehydrater and over the past 6 years or so I've done a lot more preserving using this method. Sure saves time and storage and produces an excellent product.

Ooh! Care to tell us about it and/or post some pics?

 

[Gingergirl]

I'm with prudent watcher. I use them for storing herbs and vacumn packing dry items, like beans and dehydrated fruit.

 

[blueberry]

I have a whole building in my back yard, with a couple of thousand jars, three pressure canners and two water bath canners.

(the filled jars stay in the house, of course)

When ever a seal fails for me, it usually turns out to be the jar. There will be a nick or a scratch that will cause the jar to not seal. I also had a couple of jars of turkey fail to seal one year, because I was not careful enough about cleaning all the fat off the rim.

I agree - nothing makes a canner sadder, than to have a jar fail to seal, after all that hard work.

 

[Gingergirl]

Wow bluberry,

you make me feel like such a piker.

 

[blueberry]

Laugh..... I am a sorry prepper..... no gun, no bug out vehicle.....

But I do have enough canning supplies for a small town

 

[Sarrah]

Ooh! Care to tell us about it and/or post some pics?

OK here it is... I don't recall exactly what I had in there when I took this photo. I am guessing the red is tomato or peppers. I think tomato though. The other items in there are squash or eggplant and in the right front on the wood base I am drying yard long bean seeds for planting.
I use old window screens that I clean thoroughly after each use. I use odd pieces of wood to hold them up off the bottom of the case. I can put two layers of screens in there no problem. The top opens as you can see, in the middle. I leave these open just a bit to let the air flow through. I keep the small fan runing on low and that speeds the circulation as well as keeps flies out. The sides and top are glass. DH said perhaps just wood could be used. I don't know.
The high tec legs in plastic bags then in the buckets of water... keep the ants out. I learned the hard way when I had a severe invasion of my raisin crop. This dehydrator holds a lot of items at one time.

 

[notimetospare]

Dorema,
I am a jar collector too! I have many jars to can( no idea how many, but over a couple hundred dozen) in and a collection of antique jars numbering over 300, all different. I love them and I used to look for them at yard sales, etc, but down here in Georgia where we are now, it seems everyone is USING their jars and don't sell them like they did up north. I occasionally find a few at a thrift shop, but that's about it. It's harmless fun.

Overall, even with the lost seals now and then, canning is worth the effort and even with the emssy stuff, beans and sausage, meats, chili or soups, the end result is worth it to me.

Sarrah,
I use the mayo jars too. I haven't had any trouble with them and use them all the time. I use them for pressure canning as well as water bath canning. Come to think of it, those haven't been the jars that have failed the seal either. Good observation! I have had more problems with Kerr lids than Ball lids now that I really think about it.

Vickie

 

[Gingergirl]

Sarrah

That is some set-up. I'll have to log that away in DH's To Do List. Won't he be delighted.

 

[Deena in GA]

Wow! Apparently I'm using all the wrong stuff, but it works for me. I'm blessed. Almost all of my jars are from Big Lot's (some old mayonnaise jars too) and I've used plenty of the Kerr lids. As far as I can remember, though, I've only had one lid not seal as far back as I can remember. Having said that, I bet none of my next batch seal, lol.

This will be my third year using my pressure canner (just did water bath canning before) and I have never had the gauge checked or recalibrated. Guess I really need to do that.

 

[blueberry]

I collect jars too. In fact people just keep giving them to me. Someone will find an old stash of jars in a garage or an attic, and ask me if I want them.... I always say yes I suppose I will keep saying yes till my backyard building is completely full.

I save and use mayo jars too - I have never had a problem with them.

In 1999 I bought all the lids I could: Kerr, Ball and Golden Harvest. I am still using them with no problems.

 

[blueberry]

The talk about using mayo jars reminded me of a magazine article I read. In one part, the writer talked about her mother and a neighbor searching the local dump for mayo jars during WWII. Canning supplies were very hard to get, and they were desperate.

I will keep saving my mayo jars.

 

[booger]

Sarrah, thanks for showing that pic and explaining! After seeing how great yours is, I think I'll modify my plans now. Woo hoo!

 

[AnnCats]

Sarrah
YES! I have had more failures in the past seven or eight years than in all the years before - I'm 58 and I've been canning and helping with canning since I was 5 years old... Good Heavens, that's 53 years of canning!

About 7 years ago they changed the plastic formula, particularly on the Kerr jar lids, and had thousands of failures and had to pay up for the messed up canning. I got well over a hundred dollars from them on that mess. I don't think they ever really fixed the problem, and with prices going up and cost of good going up, I think they're cutting back on the plastic yet again, and in the process, ruining our stuff.

Would you please post and let us know how you like the Weick (sp?) jars and sealers? I've never used them but I'm about ready for a change!

Another thing I'm doing to cut down on spoiled food is to dry a LOT of stuff and then just put it in ball or kerr jars and use the vacuum pump to keep the air out.
It's pretty bad when I'd rather dry than can, but there it is!

 

[AnnCats]

grease on the rims and under the lid will ruin the seal. Filling the jars with something like chili is messy and sometimes difficult to get the rims clean again before processing. Adds more time to the whole project. [/QUOTE]

There is a hint in the Ball Blue book, I think, to make little tin foil collars, with a bit of overlap where the ends meet. The collar goes all the way around the rim. use one collar per jar and then THROW IT OUT - if you try and reuse it it just makes a horrible mess and isn't worth the savings. The collars work wonders, and keep almost 100 percent of the grease and mess from getting on the rim. I LOVE Whoever thought of that solution.

 

[Sarrah]

I forgot to mention in my earlier post about outside dehydrating. We have very low humidity here. I don't think the outside dehydrator would work in areas of high humidity. I am not certain of this but it seems like it would never dry with high humidity.

When I get something to can I'll for sure report on how the new jars work.

Re: Rims with the filling funnel I very seldom have anything on the jar rims ever. I wipe them with hot water and dry them as part of the routine anyway. Everyone uses filler funnels right?

 

[Gingergirl]

Anna,

Foil collars! Well of course, a clever solution. I feel so dumb.

PS, sometimes the outside of my canning funnel becomes "dirty" before I realize it.

I'm working with very little counter space next to the stove...a 9" corner. It gets very tight in there and difficult to control. But rather than being frustrated, I should be proud of what I'm able to produce.

 

[LC]

Yes, trouble with seals not taking or failing after storage. I have lots of years of experience with water bath canning (mostly tomatoes) and suddenly a few years ago I almost couldn't get anything to keep a seal. Kerr was the worst. Ball wasn't as bad, but aren't both owned by the same company? And very recent lids seem to be sealing a little better.

I had been cheating and just running the seals under hot tap water(with good luck until about '98) when cold pack canning tomatoes but have had much better luck going back to the trouble of boiling them for a min or 2 before applying them.

Also I find that the last few years of mayo jars won't take a seal. The outside diameter of the jar is a tiny fraction too small. You can just turn and turn a ring and it won't take. Of course sometimes it will just to keep you hoping.

Note of possible interest: the Amish grocery in my area only carries Ball. Maybe those ladies have something figured out?

LC

 

[summerthyme]

Also I find that the last few years of mayo jars won't take a seal. The outside diameter of the jar is a tiny fraction too small. You can just turn and turn a ring and it won't take. Of course sometimes it will just to keep you hoping.

THIS IS IMPORTANT. Because you're right- "mayonnaise jars" (at least those from Kraft) no longer have the same threads as he canning jar rings. I'm sure it's deliberate- probably to protect themselves from a lawsuit should someone mess up some canning using their jars and try to blame them.

It's not the diameter of the jar that's wrong- it's the threads. If you look closely at one, and at a "regular" canning jar, you'll see the difference.

The older jars worked fine, although I always only used them for water bath canning.

Summerthyme

 

[Gingergirl]

This may not seem related, but hear me out.

A little over a year ago, I had trouble getting the small mouth lids to seal when vacumn packing jars. Called the company. They said that the rubber seal under the lid needed to softened by heat before sealing. Based on this and LC's experience, I would say that boiling water to sterilize the lids may not longer be optional, just to get a seal.

 

[blueberry]

There is a trick to using the new mayo jars. If you notice, the plastic jar caps the mayo co. use are thinner than our canning jar rings, so our rings will not hold a lid firmly to the new mayo jars.

I have does this many times, but never tried to describe it, so here goes

After you put your sterilized lid on your jar of food, take another lid (can even be an old used lid) and place it 'upside down' on the sterilized lid, with the sealing compound facing the ring. The added thickness will allow the ring to hold the lid in place.

Try it on a clean, dry empty jar first, to see if the ring will hold it properly.

 

[Gingergirl]

Blueberry,

Clever! I'll have to give it a try.