OP-ED Kyle Mills: Terror or bio attack, nukes? No, America's greatest threat is our vulnerable electrical grid

Jackalope

Irregular
We have multiple photovoltaic systems here at our little homestead. The primary DC system is designed specifically to run my amateur radio station, house lighting, and a small 12 VDC Dometic fridge/freezer. This primary system will not run the entire house, but it will run what I consider to be critical circuits, and the total cost was around $4000, and about half of the cost was due to lithium storage batteries.

Another DC photovoltaic system here is for a cabin, and it powers lighting, a ceiling fan, and another very small amateur radio station, the total cost for that system was $500-600.

In a past life, I designed, installed and maintained solar systems as part of my job. DC solar systems can be very simple, not expensive, and actually provide reliable power in a grid down situation. Look at some of the products from companies like Goal Zero and Renogy, they will help you plan your system. Solar photovoltaic systems are not rocket science. Be prepared!
 

Samuel Adams

Has No Life - Lives on TB
America may well survive, and eventually thrive again.

The co-dependent corporate US conglomerate may well drag 95%+ of its faithful practitioner/subjects down with.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
And just remember that the grid tied systems (both small and large) will "drop" once the power lines power down. That being said, they can be "revived" by feeding them a good pure sinewave AC signal to sync with, so a simple battery and SW inverter setup along with a small panel and charge controller to charge that battery needed to kickstart the array in the morning could prove to be well worth having. And the grid tied panels are PLENTIFUL out "in the wild", laying here and there all over the place.

Loup
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
He's got a point though. Generating your own power at home is surprisingly expensive to set up and fairly complex to build.


Again like MillWright said Yes and No and much rides on ones skill set with doing the setup. Portable generators there is the fuel cost and access to it, also how you use it and only a fool is going to run any generator 24/7.
Solar I looked into it and thinking about wife and if anything happened to me the system would become useless with the first breakdown as she has not the mindset or skill set to deal with it.

I have given some thought to what if this happened or that happened how best to deal with it and with the OP above yeah major power outage in one region or across the country people would die off by the thousands in the first month maybe faster if it happened during the winter months. My self it would come down to finding out whose still around and whose not and then helping my self to what I needed to survive and fuel, food and firewood is at the top of the list for us to get by.
 

SouthernBreeze

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Again like MillWright said Yes and No and much rides on ones skill set with doing the setup. Portable generators there is the fuel cost and access to it, also how you use it and only a fool is going to run any generator 24/7.
Solar I looked into it and thinking about wife and if anything happened to me the system would become useless with the first breakdown as she has not the mindset or skill set to deal with it.

I have given some thought to what if this happened or that happened how best to deal with it and with the OP above yeah major power outage in one region or across the country people would die off by the thousands in the first month maybe faster if it happened during the winter months. My self it would come down to finding out whose still around and whose not and then helping my self to what I needed to survive and fuel, food and firewood is at the top of the list for us to get by.

I would guess in an EMP event, there would be lots of stalled vehicles on the roads to siphon gas out of. People would have to just walk away, and leave them where they stopped. I'm not saying that we would siphon gas, but others will, I'm sure.
 

Jeff B.

Don’t let the Piss Ants get you down…
Kinda late to the party, Sparky.

Yep. He presents this as though it's a revelation. That's not to dispute the statement. A major impact to the electrical delivery grid would have an impact beyond what we've tried to imagine, IMO.

Jeff B.
 

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I kinda wish these were still more widely available than they are now, even in "kit" form. They run forever, on just about anything...

Years ago our beloved EPA banned the importation of listeroids. There are still parts and kits available. Last time I checked a few people were getting around the import restrictions by bringing them in as air compressors. The listeroids are clones or near-clones of the original Lister CS engines.

If you can find a genuine old Lister CS you've got gold, but I've been very happy with my listeroid clone, which - as virtually all of them are - was made in India.

Best
Doc
 

bethshaya

God has a plan, Trust it!
Have we all forgotten the Northeastern blackout two decades ago? One computer glitch at one single site triggered a surge that went through the whole system, and moved across the country triggering outages in all the other states. The cascading power outage caused 256 power plants to go offline. Some were nuclear. As the surge moved, if it wasnt for the quick thinking of other states along the grid to manually power down and stop the surge, it would have continued across the country.

That was just ONE single plant triggering the whole thing. Imagine if someone purposefully placed destruction at several of them across the country. People would be dealing with the chaos from the destruction to be able to think level-headily and contact who they need to in minutes to stop the surges from that. And if other plants are dealing with attacks, who would be able to take the calls and stop it?
 

nomifyle

TB Fanatic
After just going through a power outage for a week I can say it was awful. We don't have alternative sources of power except our dual fuel generators. We have enough fuel to last a couple of weeks. It could last longer if we are really stingy with it.

I'm working on getting as much out of our 5 freezers as I can. I'm cooking and dehydrating ground pork and venison almost on a daily basis and the vacuum sealing in jars.

The heat during the power outage was very debilitating for us at 73 and 77. I've asked DH to make sure all the windows will open and that they have screens (he needs to build a few). We have a wood stove/heater that can be cooked on. We also know how to cook over an open fire.

We have no set up like many have mentioned and really no way to do any of it. I can't quite get my DH to understand about how things could go. But he's a trouper and lived without electricity when he was growing up. We do have a screened in porch that we could sleep on.

I would really like to have a small solar generator to charge batteries and such but unless I get a windfall its not going to happen.

I did just order "One Second After", I don't really like to read books like that but I'll give it a shot.

God is good all the time

Judy
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
Have we all forgotten the Northeastern blackout two decades ago? One computer glitch at one single site triggered a surge that went through the whole system, and moved across the country triggering outages in all the other states. The cascading power outage caused 256 power plants to go offline. Some were nuclear. As the surge moved, if it wasnt for the quick thinking of other states along the grid to manually power down and stop the surge, it would have continued across the country.

That was just ONE single plant triggering the whole thing. Imagine if someone purposefully placed destruction at several of them across the country. People would be dealing with the chaos from the destruction to be able to think level-headily and contact who they need to in minutes to stop the surges from that. And if other plants are dealing with attacks, who would be able to take the calls and stop it?

It would take more than destruction at several plants across the country. Those plants would be taken offline and others spun up. A lot of changes were implemented following the blackout. Most people had power back on in about 8 hrs after that. It was mostly just having to do manual resets. There is actually a lot of redundancy that has been built into our grid. Outside of the CME/EMP it would take a lot of destruction to bring down the whole grid long term. It would have to be serious and widespread. Look at how quickly we restore power following natural disasters. For the most part they are pretty good at it. The weakness is that they rely on outside help. Blizzard in ME. AL crews come up to work. Hurricane in AL. ME crews go down there. It would take destruction in a number of areas and destruction of key, hard to replace components and the work arounds for those components to knock the grid out long term.
 

Milkweed Host

Veteran Member
A charge controller will consume about 10% of the power. There is some question if
a very small setup even requires a charge controller. For a very small solar setup, a 20 watt
monocrystalline panel cost about $30.00 plus sale tax delivered. this can be connected directly
to a battery, like an AGM battery. Yes, this is very small, but if that's all you have and you have
12 volts items, like 12 volt LEDs, or DVD player, it's awesome. They make 12 volt to USB connectors,
like a dollar at the Dollar Tree store.

100 watt solar panels run under $100.00 now.

A rule of thumb on using a charge controller is, 2 watts per 50 amp hour battery. Some people
question if that is too restrictive, I don't know.
 

Millwright

Knuckle Dragger
_______________
A charge controller will consume about 10% of the power. There is some question if
a very small setup even requires a charge controller. For a very small solar setup, a 20 watt
monocrystalline panel cost about $30.00 plus sale tax delivered. this can be connected directly
to a battery, like an AGM battery. Yes, this is very small, but if that's all you have and you have
12 volts items, like 12 volt LEDs, or DVD player, it's awesome. They make 12 volt to USB connectors,
like a dollar at the Dollar Tree store.

100 watt solar panels run under $100.00 now.

A rule of thumb on using a charge controller is, 2 watts per 50 amp hour battery. Some people
question if that is too restrictive, I don't know.

For perspective, two watts will give you as much light as a kerosene lantern.
 

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Propane vs. liquid fuel:

Propane is great. It could almost be said to be the perfect prep fuel, BUT for one major problem: It's not easily transferable between containers. Other problems are that it's pressurized and may be prone to leakage and it presents a fire and explosion hazard. Both are manageable with care and common sense. We use propane as a heating fuel (in addition to wood and electric), but it's not our main alternative fuel source.

I like diesel and especially simple, older generation engines. Most of the old diesels - like our listeroid - can run on multiple fuels. Storing and transfering diesel (and diesel-like) fuel is easy and relatively safe. Most consumer and contractor grade gasoline engines have very, very limited lifespans. Industrial-grade diesels can - in some cases - operate for decades. The tradeoff is expense and weight. Our listeroid is a monster of an engine, with huge exposed flywheels. It probably weighs around 650 lbs. For all of that, it only produces a maximum of 6 HP. Understand that that is the weight of the engine alone, not the skid, the generator head or the other attached components. Having said that, 6 HP can do a 'ell of a lot if you use it intelligently.

Folks who go out and buy regular gasoline generators are deluding themselves if they think they'll be up to the task of providing electricity for an extended outage.

Best
Doc
 

IJT

Veteran Member
Shortly after DHS was formed, it researched different threats against the country, one was an EMP attack, they determined that if the national grid failed, 90% of the population would die within a year. Lack of basic medicines, lack of medical treatment, lack of food, lack of clean water, and violence fighting over limited supplies. We have known about EMP since the late 50's, we know how to harden the grid, and every year Congress fails to allocate the money.
 

Publius

TB Fanatic
Shortly after DHS was formed, it researched different threats against the country, one was an EMP attack, they determined that if the national grid failed, 90% of the population would die within a year. Lack of basic medicines, lack of medical treatment, lack of food, lack of clean water, and violence fighting over limited supplies. We have known about EMP since the late 50's, we know how to harden the grid, and every year Congress fails to allocate the money.


Problem is it's not responsibility of congress as it's all owned by different corporations and it's up to them to fund and fix it.
 

LoupGarou

Ancient Fuzzball
The quick and dirty on Solar PV system design:
A lead Acid battery should never be used more than halfway. This means that you should only use 50% of the rated capacity AT THE MOST. If you have a 100AH battery (1280WH or 1.28KWH rated capacity (12.8V x 100AH)), this means that you should never pull more than 50AH or 640WH from it before charging it back up. Keep this in mind when figuring out how much battery capacity you need. Also factor in how many days you have without sun or wind.

Next, now that you have the size of your battery bank in mind, you can judge how much solar power you need. Take your total battery bank capacity and divide by 6. This pretty much guarantees that you can charge your bank back up to full in one sunny day. So that 100AH battery bank that works out to 1,280WH, would do good to have around 220 watts of solar panels. Now, you may be thinking that you really don't need to hit the 1,280WH mark as you are only supposed to be using 640W from the battery bank. You would be right to think that, but you also have to factor in the fact that charging (and discharging) batteries is NOT a 100% efficient process, PLUS, as the batteries start to get full, the rate of charge slows down with the last 5-10% seeming to take FOREVER to get to full charge. This is called the "Stadium Effect" and it is an issue with ANY battery chemistry. Designing your charging system (panels and charge controllers) according to the battery bank's nameplate rating versus the 50% de-rated depth of discharge levels not only gets you back some of the charging speed, but also makes sure that a full charge can be had in on sunny day.

Here is a good chart for battery/bank sizes and what they need as far as charging:

Battery bank AH @ 12.8V​
Nameplate Battery bank WH​
Max Usable bank WH​
Min Charge Controller Amperage​
Solar Panel Wattage​
4​
51.2​
25​
1​
8.5​
5​
64​
32​
1​
10.7​
7​
89.6​
44​
2​
14.9​
9​
115.2​
57​
2​
19.2​
12​
153.6​
76​
3​
25.6​
18​
230.4​
115​
4​
38.4​
33​
422.4​
211​
6​
70.4​
50​
640​
320​
9​
106.7​
65​
832​
416​
12​
138.7​
75​
960​
480​
14​
160.0​
100​
1280​
640​
18​
213.3​
120​
1536​
768​
22​
256.0​
150​
1920​
960​
27​
320.0​
200​
2560​
1280​
36​
426.7​
300​
3840​
1920​
54​
640.0​
400​
5120​
2560​
72​
853.3​
500​
6400​
3200​
89​
1066.7​
750​
9600​
4800​
134​
1600.0​
1000​
12800​
6400​
178​
2133.3​
1250​
16000​
8000​
223​
2666.7​
1500​
19200​
9600​
267​
3200.0​
2000​
25600​
12800​
356​
4266.7​
2500​
32000​
16000​
445​
5333.3​
3000​
38400​
19200​
534​
6400.0​
4000​
51200​
25600​
712​
8533.3​
5000​
64000​
32000​
889​
10666.7​


Knowing this, you can take a 18AH AGM battery, a 4-5Amp charge controller, and a 30-40 watt panel and keep the AGM battery well charged and keep your radio on the air for quite some time. Or do the same with your CPAP with a 33AH AGM and a 6-7Amp charge controller and 75-100 watts of panels.

Loup
 

packyderms_wife

Neither here nor there.
Critical medication would no longer be available. There would be no air-conditioning or heat. Those who live in cities would be trapped.

I currently have a six month supply of my asthma meds, when I pick up my script on Saturday it'll be a nine month supply. The one I use has a short shelf life, so no more than 18 months stocked in advance.
 

mecoastie

Veteran Member
Propane vs. liquid fuel:

Propane is great. It could almost be said to be the perfect prep fuel, BUT for one major problem: It's not easily transferable between containers. Other problems are that it's pressurized and may be prone to leakage and it presents a fire and explosion hazard. Both are manageable with care and common sense. We use propane as a heating fuel (in addition to wood and electric), but it's not our main alternative fuel source.

I like diesel and especially simple, older generation engines. Most of the old diesels - like our listeroid - can run on multiple fuels. Storing and transfering diesel (and diesel-like) fuel is easy and relatively safe. Most consumer and contractor grade gasoline engines have very, very limited lifespans. Industrial-grade diesels can - in some cases - operate for decades. The tradeoff is expense and weight. Our listeroid is a monster of an engine, with huge exposed flywheels. It probably weighs around 650 lbs. For all of that, it only produces a maximum of 6 HP. Understand that that is the weight of the engine alone, not the skid, the generator head or the other attached components. Having said that, 6 HP can do a 'ell of a lot if you use it intelligently.

Folks who go out and buy regular gasoline generators are deluding themselves if they think they'll be up to the task of providing electricity for an extended outage.

Best
Doc

And for people heating with oil, that home heating oil is diesel. You have a large continuously rotated supply avail for use.
 

fish hook

Deceased
Just want to mention that there are a lot of Amish in America that do fine without the grid. They don't even have wiring in their homes.

Remember,they planed it that way and are fully trained and prepared for it.Most of the rest of the country couldn't figure out how to find their own butt after their ONLY set of batteries give out.
 

All4liberty

Senior Member
I'm not as concerned about an EMP, but I don't see we will a civil war without taking down the grid to the big cities. Plan on disruption to the grid.

That said, I have a Sunnyboy grid tie that has a grid down 2.5kw power line that provides power from my solar system when the grid is down. Otherwise it feeds the grid and reduces my electric bill during my future retirement years, I only have $4000 in it and will get a 20% rebate on it this year.

I also am collecting solar powered flag pole lights that are really bright that could be used for night time use, along with some solar powered motion lights. They also work really well.
 

rob0126

Veteran Member
A charge controller will consume about 10% of the power. There is some question if
a very small setup even requires a charge controller. For a very small solar setup, a 20 watt
monocrystalline panel cost about $30.00 plus sale tax delivered. this can be connected directly
to a battery, like an AGM battery. Yes, this is very small, but if that's all you have and you have
12 volts items, like 12 volt LEDs, or DVD player, it's awesome. They make 12 volt to USB connectors,
like a dollar at the Dollar Tree store.

100 watt solar panels run under $100.00 now.

A rule of thumb on using a charge controller is, 2 watts per 50 amp hour battery. Some people
question if that is too restrictive, I don't know.

You can run some things directly off a solar panel, using dc-dc convertors. Not sure how that would go with bigger loads though.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gud5jHHa3Fg&t=1s
 

rob0126

Veteran Member
I currently have a six month supply of my asthma meds, when I pick up my script on Saturday it'll be a nine month supply. The one I use has a short shelf life, so no more than 18 months stocked in advance.

Maybe look into natural ways to handle asthma, even to reverse it?
essential oils, lipo c, etc.
 

northern watch

TB Fanatic
A book to read "Lights Out: A Cyberattack, a Nation Unprepared, Surviving the Aftermath"

41lap5l6ubL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Here is a detailed video of the construction of a wood-gas generator to run an electrical generator in lieu of gasoline.
Using Wood to Fuel a Generator! (How to Build a Wood Gasifier w/Demonstration) (17:07)
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyTqo4mCUUY

I also saw a video of a waste oil burning turbine.
Then there is solar and wind, man powered bicycles that use an alternator to produce 12V.
There are ways of making power on a small scale, but power isn't everything.

Regardless, a RandCorp study showed that the massive widespread starvation and infighting from the grid going down would result in a 90% population decline in the US in 6 months.
Was that 90% down over 6 months of Winter, or over 6 months of summer?
 

Jeff B.

Don’t let the Piss Ants get you down…
After just going through a power outage for a week I can say it was awful. We don't have alternative sources of power except our dual fuel generators. We have enough fuel to last a couple of weeks. It could last longer if we are really stingy with it.

I'm working on getting as much out of our 5 freezers as I can. I'm cooking and dehydrating ground pork and venison almost on a daily basis and the vacuum sealing in jars.

The heat during the power outage was very debilitating for us at 73 and 77. I've asked DH to make sure all the windows will open and that they have screens (he needs to build a few). We have a wood stove/heater that can be cooked on. We also know how to cook over an open fire.

We have no set up like many have mentioned and really no way to do any of it. I can't quite get my DH to understand about how things could go. But he's a trouper and lived without electricity when he was growing up. We do have a screened in porch that we could sleep on.

I would really like to have a small solar generator to charge batteries and such but unless I get a windfall its not going to happen.

I did just order "One Second After", I don't really like to read books like that but I'll give it a shot.

God is good all the time

Judy

Give it a shot... I think that William Forstchen spins a pretty good tale. There's even a sequel if you like the first one.

Jeff B.
 
Top