db cooper
Resident Secret Squirrel
An easy to understand way to sort this out.
CORONA 5 Questions to Ask Your Friends Who Plan to Get the COVID Vaccine
- Thread starter Sicario
- Start date
db cooper
Resident Secret Squirrel
Very interesting and applicable analogy.
Just a Nurse 2
Senior Member
Yep, they know, and cannot wait to get it, either 
They got the BIG sippy cup of Koolaid...
They got the BIG sippy cup of Koolaid...
How many people lining up for the jab even have ammo?
there are even people here that are
Raggedyman
Res ipsa loquitur
Please do. You can have my dose too.
you can have ours too - we won't be taking it . . .
Raggedyman
Res ipsa loquitur
100% of ZERO
I still wonder when they are going to try to force compliance by some means.
wait for it
its coming
Question 1
Why have we ever needed to? SARS and MERS were a small number of cases that were easily stopped. And the common cold is unpleasant, but rarely fatal. It is just not cost effective, for the number of people who would accept the vaccine.
We have on the other hand, with varying degrees of success, been vaccinating against another fast changing set of viruses, primarily the flu virus. Some years Scientists are spot on, and some years, they only get 40% success rates.
Just because it is a virus, that mutates quickly, does mean, we do not have the skills to develop a vaccine.
Question 2
You are right, but companies usually have to pay for their own development costs. This time round governments, including the Trump administration poured millions into vaccine development, even more into production facilities. Or did Trump lie during his exit speech, at Edwards Airforce base.
The untested vaccine was availed last summer, I think August. I was offered the opportunity to test the vaccine, back then. Companies usually have to do everything themselves. For Covid-19, governments everywhere, including the USA, offered private companies large sums of money fund large scale trials.
Question 3
Also true, but there is thing called, the time for the technology has come. Just because something is new does not mean it is bad. 50 years ago there were no mobile, internet, PCs, ATMs, DNA sequencing, bar codes..... Do I need to go on?
Question 4,
Even when pharmaceutical companies could be sued, few were successful. Ditto with drugs lawsuits.
Question 5
According this web page Coronavirus Update (Live): 110,952,497 Cases and 2,454,723 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer Last updated February 19th this year
Around 2% of cases are fatal. And we know that between 5-20% of people end up with long Covid. 5% of the cases are probably people who are so severely disabled they can either never work again or need extensive therapy, and lifelong drug use. The 20% are probably people who varying mounts of support, including long term, but maybe not lifelong drug use. They certainly need to see a doctor regularly for a few years.
Say 100,000 unvaccinated people test positive for the virus.
2,000 people will die, some of them under the age of 65.
5,000 people will probably never work again and
15,000 will need long term medical care.
For vaccinated people we know the vaccine will prevent 90% of infections, so only 10,000 will test positive for the virus. It is way too early to tell what the death rates and disability rates will be for the vaccinated, but let’s be pessimistic. And say 100 people die,
250 people end up with disabling long Covid, and
750 people need long term care.
Early results are showing that the death rate in vaccinated people is dropping rapidly, and one can expect a corresponding drop in long coved rates.
So question 6 is in the interests of fairness.
Do you want to be part of the unvaccinated group where per 100, 000 positive cases
2,000 people will die, some of them under the age of 65.
5,000 people will probably never work again and
15,000 will need long term medical care?
Or do you want to be part of the vaccinated group, where there will only be 10,000 positive cases (90% of cases prevented by the vaccine ) and so consequently less deaths and disablements. So being pessimistic about the % drop in deaths/ disablements, and say there is only a 50% decrease.
100 people die,
250 people end up with disabling long Covid,
and 750 people are left with residual health problems.
That is 100 deaths in the vaccinated group per 2000 deaths in the unvaccinated group. 250 people with disabling long Covid versus 5000, and so on.
Where do you want to take your chances?
I posted before about how my father and others had the same mindset against the polio shot and small pox vaccine when I was little. I remember them saying how it was a plot to kill off the population of kids. I was scared to death hearing him argue with my mother about it. I could maybe get polio or maybe die with the vaccine. My grandmother (his mother) took me to get the vaccine anyway. I don't know if he ever knew or not. I will get the covid shots when available.
Border Collie Dad
Flat Earther
Anrol5, where do you get some of your numbers?
Sicario
The Executor
Your body...your choice. Just as it should be.
Codeno
Veteran Member
Yeah, that.
There has not been anywhere near enough time (like in years too little) to properly develop, let alone test and track a vaccine and it's guinea pigs. We're just supposed to believe whatever outrageous b.s. they feed us next, and like it.
I'm guessing that ultimately, if we could see the man/men behind the curtain, these numbers come from the same people that had the Buttsweat Punk tell us that if we liked our doctor we could keep him or her, and that it would save us $2500 per year per family in the process. Still trying to work out the math on that one, but I'm beginning to think we got screwed. Not that they intend us harm or anything, just sayin'.
155 arty
Veteran Member
Or.... ZOMBIES. !!!!!!!!!
And all those stories about the polio vaccine/cancer connection are just lies. SV40 only causes cancer in lab rats.
The Snack Artist
Membership Revoked
Once again, the sheep are being told if they "Just do this" things will go back to normal. Your life can return. So many people are getting the vax to "get by." There are employers who have and will, insist on the vax before a person re-enters the workforce. Soon the cards will be issued that you got the vax. No card? No entry.
Magical thinking...
Some of my friends have had Covid and gotten over it without meds or serious problems. But the after effects are worse then the actual having it. One still can't taste or smell, one doesn't have the energy to barely get dressed anymore. And one has headaches and breathing problems and it's been six months since she had covid. All are miserable and feel depressed. They don't see an end to get over it any time soon. That scares me more then the shots.
Ractivist
Pride comes before the fall.....Pride month ended.
Tell them about ivermectin, now.
Lone_Hawk
Resident Spook
You have presented a well crafted argument for getting the shot. The problem I have is your numbers to support getting the shot are all a wild ass guess. I would rather deal with the devil I know.
For people who need certainty, and absolutes, they will never get how the vaccine works, or any medical treatment or a lot of other things in life. Life is all about probabilities, chances of an outcome, probabilities, etc. Not certainties.
So getting back to Covid.
How many injections did your friends have one or two? You are only fully vaccinated after two shots, and then only to around 90%. After the first shot, you get probably around 80% protection, which drops over the following 12 weeks, until you get your second vaccine.
That means around 20% of the population will get still get Covid. The UK has only been vaccinating since late December, but the initial evidence is that even one shot, lowers the chance of getting the more serious version of Covid, ie the one where you land up in hospital, on oxygen, and possibly in ICU on a ventilator or die. And getting vaccinated will also probably reduce your chance of getting Long Covid. We will have to wait several months, before we can be reasonably certain of this.
There are no certainties in life, except death and taxes
On that evidence I would say there is plenty of reason for getting the shots - plural.
But if you want certainty, you will be waiting till a very hot place gets very cold for that.
Long Covid is horrible, and it can occur after asymptomatic cases.
Covid thickens the blood. In the sickest patients the blood can be off the scale sticky. That thick blood has the potential to damage all the organs of the body. And it can damage the lungs.
We don’t know which people will have which organs affected, which will result in this person having one set of symptoms, and another having a completely different set of symptoms. This could explain the wide range of systems, called Long Covid, but again we do not know.
Damaged lungs / heart will contribute to tiredness.
The lack of smell is down to the Covid virus damaging nerves. Not the olfactory nerve, the nerves that support the Olfactory nerve. And when those nerves grow back, they do so in a random way, so your sense of smell can be permanently messed up. For some people, it means they can only smell or taste poo. And it is permanent.
So may I suggest the person who has lost their sense of smell, starts smell training to reduce the chance of permanently smelling poo. More info on web. It goes something like buy strong essential oils, like peppermint and smell them 3 times a day.
And for some patients they never seem to get over the virus. Permanent fever, chills etc.
We really do not know enough about Long Covid to say what it is exactly or how to treat it, if we can. At the moment we can't.
But again if you want to take your chances do.
Your body your right to choose. Absolutely.
But be prepared to take the consequences.
Please present your evidence, with sources, so I can understand why you think my figures are wild guesses.
The initial numbers for the unvaccinated group are backed up by science. One web page Coronavirus Update (Live): 111,353,480 Cases and 2,465,867 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer? Last updated February 19th this year. But there are more out there.
So say 100,000 unvaccinated people test positive for the virus.
2,000 people will die, some of them under the age of 65.
5,000 people will probably never work again and
15,000 will need long term medical care.
And so is the first line of the fully vaccinated group
for vaccinated people we know the vaccine will prevent 90% of infections, so only 10,000 will test positive for the virus.
The UK has only been vaccinating since late December, and people have only received their first shot. Few have received a second shot. There is a 12 week spacing between shots.
So if death rates and long Covid rates are the same, then
200 people die,
500 people end up with disabling long Covid,
and 1500 people end up with long term health problems.
Now we know in the vaccinated group, after one shot, deaths are noticeably dropping. No hard data yet on just how much. So I used a conservative estimate of 50% decrease in problems. It is likely the decrease will be much higher. So we end up with:
100 people die,
250 people end up with disabling long Covid, and
750 people end up with long term health problems...
I know which group I would rather be in.
You can argue about some of the numbers. The 90% is only for the original virus, *and* the Kent variant, which initial studies are suggesting will become the dominant variant. Who knows which variant will win out. Protection against the Brazil variant, and the South African variant are much lower. BUT......
Initial studies are saying that if you use one type of vaccine as dose one, and a different vaccine for dose 2, then after two doses people will have around a 95% chance of not getting Covid. And, because the way the different vaccines work, more than likely a step increase in protection against both the Brazilian and South African variants.
But in every vaccination thread, I have stated. I will fight for your right not to have the vaccine if you so choose.
Your body your right to choose. Absolutely.
But what I do find strange is, you and a lot of other posters won't be metaphorically held down, and forced to have a vaccine, but many posters on TB2K will metaphorically hold women down, and force then to carry a baby to term.
Firebird
Has No Life - Lives on TB
They has 2 shots
Protocol used to be one shot followed 3 weeks later by another and then wait 3 weeks for the immune system to fully respond, to end up with 90% protection. Your friends, having only been vaccinated a month ago, would not have had time for the vaccine to work fully, and so would still be probably only 80% protected.
But even when fully vaccinated the vaccine is only 90% effective at stopping one catching Covid, which means 10% of people still catch Covid. A milder version, than they would have had without the vaccine.
So vaccination for those who still get Covid, is about being asymptomatic versus feeling ill, feeling lousy at home, against time in hospital for the unvaccinated. Or hospitalisation on oxygen versus ICU and breathing machines for the unvaccinated. Or walking out of ICU versus death for the unvaccinated.
And I have lowered my chance of getting the disease in the first place, by 90%.
Vaccination only gives 90% protection, so 10% of people will still get Covid. And even if death rates, and Long Covid rates are the same, that is 10% less death / disability rates. BUT initial results, after only one shot, are showing death rates are noticeably falling in the vaccinated group, and one would hope disability rates would fall too.
Last edited:
Third shot may be needed to combat new coronavirus variants, Bill Gates says
Third shot may be needed to combat new coronavirus variants, Bill Gates says
There's growing concern about the effectiveness of current vaccines against variants from Brazil and South Africa.www.cbsnews.com
View attachment 252855
I can not emphasize strongly enough how little I care about what Mr. Gates thinks or says...
Orion Commander
Veteran Member
You saw him receive a shot. But do you know for sure what was in the syringe?I actually had someone tell me that they felt better about getting the vac "after I saw Dr. Fauci take it".
I think you missed my point. I didn't say it, I was quoting someone.
I don't believe a thing out of Fauci's mouth, or the dog and pony show of celebs and pols getting a jab.
Just had a good friend walk in and say he was getting the vax so he could go traveling again.
Smart guy. But I was like you’re really going to do that? Yep, no problem. I just said you need to hit the CDC site and see what it can cause.
I was simply positive I don’t know enough to even get him to entertain another option or my opinion. And that’s ok. But I do wish he’d listen to it with an open mind. But I know he won’t so I just shut up right fast.
You will rarely change anyone’s mind on this, so why bother wasting your breath. And as someone pointed out, it’s his body.
Smart guy. But I was like you’re really going to do that? Yep, no problem. I just said you need to hit the CDC site and see what it can cause.
I was simply positive I don’t know enough to even get him to entertain another option or my opinion. And that’s ok. But I do wish he’d listen to it with an open mind. But I know he won’t so I just shut up right fast.
You will rarely change anyone’s mind on this, so why bother wasting your breath. And as someone pointed out, it’s his body.
Lone_Hawk
Resident Spook
But what I do find strange is, you and a lot of other posters won't be metaphorically held down, and forced to have a vaccine, but many posters on TB2K will metaphorically hold women down, and force then to carry a baby to term.
Well, as for COVID, there is not yet enough solid data for me to make a decision, so I will not.
I am adopted. If my mother had elected to murder me in the womb, I would not be here. Having said that, I support your right to murder your children in the womb as much as you wish.
Border Collie Dad
Flat Earther
I'm adopted too and have two adopted children.
As far as being "forced to carry a child full term", the choice was made at the beginning, Anrol5.
There is no excuse for an "unwanted" pregnancy in this day and age.
Birth control is freely available or one can use the method I taught my daughter.
Keep your pants up and your knees together.
Laziness and irresponsibility cause unwanted pregnancies.
I believe in choice up until the moment of conception.
At that point it's no longer a choice.
It's murder!
Don't try to justify it with the old rape and incest petard.
Polio is not Covid. But it's your body and if it heals childhood wounds I say. Go for it...
Hfcomms
EN66iq
I had an employee's dad die last week from his second Covid injection. Man was 80 years old and had COPD and just beat cancer and his immune system was still compromised. First shot went o.k. Had a reaction to the second shot on a Friday by the next day he was in excruciating pain and went into the ER. From the blood work they determined that he had several huge clots in his legs and the next day he was put into a medically induced coma, threw a clot and was dead within minutes.
They got the official cause of death back yesterday and it was labeled as cancer and COPD. Except they didn't do an autopsy, he was certified cancer free and no longer in treatment and had COPD for years on supplement oxygen. Everything was fine until hours after his second Covid vaccination.
And of course this man's death is not going to be recorded in the Covid vaccine adverse affects database. Didn't even do an autopsy and yet they declared his death due to cancer and COPD.
Personally I think the first shot caused him to produce the spike proteins and the second shot sent him into cytokine storm of sorts causing the clots which he didn't have before the second vaccination injection.
They got the official cause of death back yesterday and it was labeled as cancer and COPD. Except they didn't do an autopsy, he was certified cancer free and no longer in treatment and had COPD for years on supplement oxygen. Everything was fine until hours after his second Covid vaccination.
And of course this man's death is not going to be recorded in the Covid vaccine adverse affects database. Didn't even do an autopsy and yet they declared his death due to cancer and COPD.
Personally I think the first shot caused him to produce the spike proteins and the second shot sent him into cytokine storm of sorts causing the clots which he didn't have before the second vaccination injection.
spindrifter
Contributing Member
Agreed.
Had he not taken the vaccine it would have been 100% ruled a covid death even if it had been COPD or cancer just for the gov't kickbacks . Can't have the vaccine causing harm so it must have been a precondition.
Sounds like he was probably high risk and just trying to do the responsible thing and get vaccinated to protect himself/others.
My condolences to you and your employee's family.