Questions? On Solar Panels

Im moving my business home and closing my store. Im purchasing a 12x12 shed to remodel and turn into an office. I was thinking of solar means for electricity. This is what I have learned so far.

Look for Monocrystaline panels. Lasts 20 years

I can get these free through a program with the electric company for a buy back program of unused watts

It will take a battery and an inverter. Cost's Im not sure of.

In the buy back program the power will cost about 4-6 cents per killowatt hour.

Questions?
Anyone done this before to just an out building or shed?
Will this solar power run a celling fan, lighting, computer?

Im trying to do this as I have an old house and not sure if it will supply the office with out blowing breakers. I have no problem as it is but afraid to tax the existing panel.

Thanks for any who respond in advance. You all are so helpful.

You have to approach this from an energy balance point first, and to get one HALF of that equation:
What do you want to power and for how long.

You can believe the ones that say it is economical to do (especially if someone else pays for the panels) and approach it that way.

Or you can listen carefully to those who have done it, and consider their cost figures.

You are probably better off souping up the utility feed and power the shed from there.

Herbmountain, for you to go grid tie, you will need to build your system to STATE code. You will need

1) State Inspector (who will force you to use certified parts)
2) local electrical inspector
3) State inspector after local inspector (again)
4) utility co. inspector.

To build your system to code, you will need a dedicated room for the batteries that is ventilated (basicall a second shed) or a small addition to the new one.

I would reccommed getting the parts on your own and not go grid tie. After you go grid tie, your 'state' knows you have a solar 'outlet' at your home....

Your system will need:

1) at least 3 panels
2) at least 3 dep cycle batteries
3) a solar panel disconnect
4) a voltage controller (shut off for the solar) to keep the batteries from boiling
5) a battery disconnect (kill sw.) between the batteries and the inverter.
6) at least a 2000watt inverter.

I would go with DC lights. The more you bypass the inverter, the more power you save (the inverter uses power to convert).

Agree with WFK. It depends.

Off the wall guess. Figure $2000+ for equipment (w/sorta free panels and do it yourself installation). BTW, I betcha to get the utility feed in connection you'll need way more panels than you'd think for your basic use. I betcha you're gonna want AC and/or heating in there also.

Compare that to the cost of upgrading your house grid panel.

Prolly pretty close to same if you have it done by a good contractor. And you'll improve your house electrical supply, and prolly make it safer too.

Here's a thought for consideration. Rather than a shed, how about a small camping trailer (say 18-20ft) to use as an office. They're set up to use DC, have DC fans/lighting, and often with a small inverter that would run your puter OK if ya wanted to fill a coupla batts with solar..prolly only need 1..and only then when a plugin to grid is unavailable. They're made to be energy efficient.

They can be had used for less than $1000..prolly closer to $500 for older models. Save ya a LOT of work compared to a shed and all that's involved with starting from scratch. What's the price of a 12x12 shed?


PS: what Rex said. BTW, if your puter is a notebook/laptop, you wouldn't even need an inverter with the trailer suggestion.

You are ALSO going to need a charge controller to make sure that the panels are at least TRYING to charge the batt's when there is sun out.....and so that the batts don't get toasted too much, or draqwn DOWN too much...


C, who has YET to hook up his pannels and Trace controller....

edited to include numbers and then revised again to add the sun%

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don't mean to scare you from the prospect here, but conserve, conserve, conserve! That is the cheapest route!

Staying of the grid is the least annoying mode.

And doing it all via low voltage is better.
12V fluorensent lights, 12V computer ....
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wfk is correct.

What will you be running?
What do want to run?

Look up the solar radience charts, to determine how much sunshine you will get in your new area.

[using wags ] i.e. s.kal get 100 hours of sun a day. and 10 cloudy days. your system would need less panels to supply your load than say Scotland which gets 1 hour of full sun a day and 364 couldy days.

In Fla we get about 4.5 hours full sun days, with 25% rain. so you'll need to factor that in to the total available power. Summer = 4.5 and winter = 3.5 hours of full sun. Avg =4.0

i.e. 4hours/24hours * 75% sunny day

You need to make all of your power in 4 hours. A rainy / cloudy day will still yield about 20% of total power - because of the broadspectrum [UV] on the panels.

Your battery and inverter will be about 80% effiecent at best.

Wosrt of all most charge controllers don't effiecently convert the power, they just chop of the excess voltage. I.e. on a 24v system, your 120w panels make 31V @ 3.4 amps, your batteries are at 26V. The charge controller feeds the 3.4 amps but at 26V to the batteries. Thus chopping of 5 Volts or 17 watts. Thus you wasted about 17%

So in those 4 hours you need to make say 2kW [2000] for your daily use plus say 20% reserve.

panel wattage = daily_use * invert_of_effiency * reserve * invert_of_chagecontoller_effiency * daily_sun%
panel wattage = (2000 /4) * (1/80%) * (1+ 20%) * (1/ (1- 17%)) * 1/75%

panel wattage = ~1200 watts

That's 10 120W panels, at what $500 a panel? That is only about half your expense.

You must have batteries to supply 2kW, but you should only drain them by no more 20%. That means you need 10kW worth of batteries. This does not included that energy reserve of say 2 days, that means you need about 16 kW of batteries.

If you supplement this with wind or hydro then you're really gonna be in good shape. Because hydro is 24 hours a day and wind is depending on the area also 24 hours a day [but not in s.FL] .

As you can see conservation saves more than just panels! You'll get more value by conserving than by buying more supply.


Visit http://www.homepower.com to get some clues.

Will you break even under current prices? Not even close.

But a well done system will give you serious peace of mind!

I wouldn't go solar just because of the free solar panels. Don't forget the TANSTAAFL rule. The state will have their thumb on you and I'm guessing it would be fairly uncomfortable at best. If you want to go solar to save money and help reduce pollution and save the planet that's another thing all together. But if I were you, I'd pay my own way and have it my own way as well. If you're trying to save money overall, then it would be much cheaper to have the electric company come out to your place and run another drop from your transformer and set a new meter. Here in Arkansas, the customer is responsible for setting the pole and power box and running the cable from the meter to the power box in the building. I don't know how it is for you in your state but that isn't a big chunk of change to part with. And you'd have the advantage of having the office power easily tracked for tax purposes. In fact, I suspect you could take the cost of the power pole, panel and wiring off of your taxes as a business expense.

However, it would be really cool if you could go totally solar for your office. You can take some serious tax credits for going solar these days depending on where you live. It will be expensive for you but well worth it in the long run. If you have to take out a loan for the solar equipment and installation you can most likely take that tax break too. And paying the loan would be similar to paying a monthly electric bill. Until that great day when the loan is paid off and no more electric bills! You have an exciting time ahead of you and I envy you your desire to go solar. Good luck and I sure hope the solar thing pans out for you. Think about getting all DC appliances for your office. Inverters waste energy and are rediculously expensive and very wasteful with energy. Have fun and do well with your business in any case.

Solar power

The newest issue of Mother Earth News has a fairly large section on Solar Power. It includes schools for basic knowledge and installation. Also a list of states that have tax incentives, rebates and net metering. You might find the info your looking for ~

ofuzzy,
That was really good! Especially: "s.kal gets 100hrs of sun a day." Aren't they blessed with everything! But of course their brains get fried, so they don't take advantage of the additional 76 hours/day for anything.)

Wosrt of all most charge controllers don't effiecently convert the power, they just chop of the excess voltage. I.e. on a 24v system, your 120w panels make 31V @ 3.4 amps, your batteries are at 26V. The charge controller feeds the 3.4 amps but at 26V to the batteries. Thus chopping of 5 Volts or 17 watts. Thus you wasted about 17%

Click to expand...

That is Part I. Actually the panel voltage collapses to the battery voltage, or nearly so. That is the VOLTAGE part. (And multiplied by the current, it comes right off the panel rating.)
Then there is Part II (The CURRENT part):
Now, as you approach elevated charging voltage during RECHARGE (voltage may rise a bit, to 28 V) you now start backing off on CURRENT as well. The charger current backs off because the battery cannot accept charge at the panel rate.

So the deal with available sun converted to battery storage gets even worse! (except in s. kal. where everything is just different.)

Oh my gosh! I had no idea how detailed and expensive it will be. I will only be using the office maybe 5 times a day. Say for appointments.

The trailer is a good idea but it is difficult to plop an 8 foot massage table in the middle. Thus the shed idea. I can stack all herbs on shelves and leave the middle open for table.

I have only 2,000 and the shed costs 1,900. The funds include set up, and finishing touches. It covers everything. Then I will need to finish off walls, put up shelves, add air conditioner, fan, electrical and heat will be a floor heater. In California it is baking right now. The area I have chosed in shaded in the am and hot as hell in the evening.

Sounds like solar is out of my budget.

Looks like extension cords from the house for a while. Thank you so much everyone. You have answered all my questions. Funny how a simple idea can be like the moneypit.

Yeah a massage table needs room. BTDT. There are trailer configs that would work or can be remodeled (we took out the kitchen table/seats and a closet), but it would take some hunting for an acceptable used one.

RE the shed. Maybe you could ask around and find an outa work/retired carpenter who could build ya one for less $$ (maybe barter for your skills?). A source of recycled lumber would help too.

Do-it-yourself shed kits are available too. The least expensive are the one's that supply the hardware+plans and you get the lumber locally. This site has lottsa info and some free plans too.


PS: if ya do-it-yourself you'll gain deep understanding why retired carpenters may be very interested in bartered massage/therapy. LOL

Synap, thank you so much. The sheds are beautiful. I have to see if my SO is up to constructing these. We can get the wood at cost but with his working 12 to 16 hours a day it might be the straw that breaks the camels back. I like the first shed. It is adorable. Looks like a wonderful model for an office.

About the retired carpenter? You mean trade massage for his work? Good idea. Most of the guys up here are handy men. I will see what I can do. Thanks again. It was of great help to me as I cannot sit more than 10 minutes in front of the conputer with out having my back act up.
((((hugs)))))

Looks like extension cords from the house for a while.

Click to expand...

Be careful with air conditioners and extension cords.
That is another bag of worms.

WFK That was a joke. I was married to a Hi-Lineman for 8 years and know better. I found a customer that is a retired electrician. She said she will cut me a deal on the electrical.

Sounds like you need to dig out your shiatzu book and work on yourself.

The lady I was working with/training under (the trailer et al) moved. And the new spot had too much sun (hot desert hot!), so, all by herself she built a pole barn over the trailer. This lady is 5'2"/90lbs and not young. She decided she would do it without help. So she bought some plans+materials list out of a magazine and went at it. No power in the new place so she used a solar panel (client bartered) and a coupla old batteries to charge the one cordless drill she had. Hand sawed the lumber. Used angle connectors and stud brackets instead of cutting miters and such. No nails, all screws. And then screened it in all around. Took her a coupla months to do cuz she still needed to travel (100mi!) to the city with her foldup for clients (and $$), but it was *fine* when finished. She'd never done anything like that, or even used a saw, before, btw.

Na, Synap...old lower lumbar injury. I can only sit for 15 mintues before I hurt. You know how it goes. The caretakers never take care of themselves. I have tried to massage myself but my arms do not bend backwards. SO is out on the couch snoring away. He worked 17 hours. Guess I could rub my back up and down his arm? He would not even know what was up. Has to be up at 4am and start over. He is also a driver like Dennis but has been doing it for 20 years. I just do not know how he does it. Poor guy.

Hey I went on that site for the sheds. OMG. I found a cabin I really liked. It is 11,000.00 and I have only 2,000. Dang but they have some beautiful cabins. Makes me want to move right in one of those.

The sheds that are 12X9 are pretty nice but they are the same price as the one I checked out at Home Base. They come out and put the thing up for you and finish it also. Boy this is a big decision to make. But again....thanks so much.

sure..it'll work out you'll see. It's sorta like looking for the best gift you want to give your best friend.

Heh, I have a doorknob mounted on a board that I do my back when needed..well it sorta works LOL. Then there are things you can do with trigger points from the front & side that do/relax/adjust the back connectors also. My lower lumbar connect trigger points are located just under my buns for instance (opposite sides). Not an immediate fix but more like starting the process in a 'remote' sorta way. Funny how things connect up within us. Our bodies are amazing things. And yep for sure we have trouble doing for ourselves what we tell others to do. Knowing what I know now I sure would of been nicer to this ol bod.

Anyway I'm getting way OT so like I said it'll work out..prolly better than you can imagine. Follow the path you started on and let it surprise you.

Synap. Thanks for the support. I have not gone into detail what is going on but Im scared as hell. Have never been un-employed much less tried to get a job with this kind of disability. I also have carpal tunnel and am fine if I do not over do it. Gardening with small implements will leave my hands going asleep for 3 days. Just stuff I deal with and not think about anymore.

But this step? Boy. I ran a good business for 8 years. Had lots of success, not in the riches way but was able to help lots of folks with health issues. September 11? That is when tshtf. Things went down hill. People are scared. 40% of my income were from people that worked at Intell and Hewlett. They are out of work and relocating out of Ca. Lost their houses, some are retraining for lesser jobs.

I will have faith that this will work. The dues of being in business are so expensive today. I get charged much more for phones, electric and all other services due to being a business. I will be glad to forgo that pain. I have gotten names, numbers of all my clients and they assure me they will come to the house as parking down town is also a bad issue. We have a court house that takes up all the available parking down town with grand jurys and now they are buying another building to make into a court. I see down town Placerville becoming a legal only shops. No more cute antique shops and hardware shops. I have an attorney looking at my shop. So convient, right across from the court house. So I cannot say my business failed. It did not, the town just changed. It is very sad to see this. These are the last of small owner operater stores. Walmart just came in a year ago. Might also be why.

But again, Im having faith that my services will be needed with the crunch of medial insurance companys. People cannot afford the premiums. Maybe I can help them from becoming sick in the first place and eat right. Preventative is what it is all about.

Go with the flow of the Spirit, you will find it goes just at your pace, just where you're at