PREP Interesting herbal experience with H1N1

Mods... I never can find the "personal experience" thread that's supposedly here somewhere, and you can move this to wherever you wish when you want. I think it's important... I've NEVER seen this type of inflammatory reaction in any influenza before, and given the reports out of Brazil (IIRC... they were on Niman's ReCombinomics site)... that "people are dying with "lungs on fire" in 24 hours"... it may be lifesaving.

I wrote this last Wednesday, but got busy and forgot I hadn't posted it here.

Two other notes: turmeric stimulates bile production. Hubby did end up with some loose bowels after taking large doses for 3 days. It may have been the turmeric, rather than a flu symptom.. or not. But it could also cause problems IF you have occult (hidden) gall stones, or gall bladder disease, so be aware of that potential.

Also... take the piperine warnings SERIOUSLY... it could cause major problems for people taking some Rx drugs. There are currently no known problems with OTC meds, however.

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Hubby is still fighting the flu, but was somewhat worse last night... not surprising since we finally finished haying and chores around 10 pm, and he spent almost 9 hours in the hot sun on the tractor. I did send elderberry back in gatorade every few hours, and it's clearly keeping this whole bug under control, but certainly not as well as if he was able to REST.

Last night a very odd symptom showed up, though... severely inflamed joints! I mean, elbows, wrists, every finger joint, hips, base of his spine... they all were red hot to the touch, very painful, and he said, difficult to move "felt swollen (but they weren't, at least not visibly) and stiff".

I gave him the usual herbal meds as well as OTC meds, including ibuprofen and sudafed, and a massage. After about 20 minutes I thought "hmmm... if this IS actually an inflammatory process from the virus (and I suspected it was, because I had severe spinal and nerve pain for several days when I had the bug, and it took almost another week to resolve after I felt fine otherwise)... I wonder if curcumin (from turmeric) would help? It's reputed to help with a cytokine storm, which of course is simply a serious inflammatory reaction in the lungs. Fortunately, this hasn't gone into his lungs!

So, since nothing else was helping (we even were using ice packs, the heat and pain was that bad), I gave him 900 mgs of curcumin (3 capsules) and 10 mgs of piperine (a black pepper extract that increases the absorption of the curcumin by 2000% (lab proof of that). I'm not sure how much effect we really expected... but I can say neither of us expected the heat and pain to almost totally fade within the next 2 hours!

Now, it's easy enough to say "but... he took ibuprofen! That's what did it"... except he'd been taking that pretty much every 4 hours all day, and it didn't stop the inflammation from developing or help knock it down.

It's certainly possible that the symptom was only temporary anyway, and this was purely coincidental. We DO take curcumin occasionally for inflammatory pain (old injuries) and it works for that, and I really do think it was the main "cure" last night.

So.... FWIW. I'm absolutely making sure I'll have plenty of the standardized turmeric capsules in my preps. If anyone is interested, here is where I get it:
http://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=0561&ad=goowmturtur&gclid=CMGh-sXTpZsCFRLoxgodTBBnyg

Unfortunately, they don't sell the piperine, which I get here: http://www.vitacost.com/Source-Natu...ine&s_kwcid=TC|3001|bioperine||S|p|1742929481

These folks have a combination product... I personally wouldn't use it by choice, because I want to be able to take as much of the curcumin as I feel necessary, and while it's impossible to overdose on that herb, it IS possible to take too much piperine. But, it may be convenient enough for most that I'll post the link:
http://www.puritan.com/pages/iq.asp?SearchText=bioperine&searchterm=bioperine&rdcnt=1

MAXIMUM dose of the piperine is 20 mgs daily, and it's highly recommended to not take more than 10 mgs. For folks taking Rx meds... DO NOT TAKE PIPERINE without discussing it with your doc, or using the 'net to check for "interactions'. IT CAN CHANGE ABSORPTION OF SOME DRUGS!!!

Summerthyme

Thanks, Summer.

In my searchings just now, I found U of R studies that support many uses for Curcumin. At this site, though, it recommends not using the Peperine:

http://www.turmeric-curcumin.com/


Anyway, I know we've been talking about the subject in other threads for a long time now, but thought this site would be handy for those who never saw those discussions.

Thanks for the info, Summerthyme. I've neglected adding curcumin to my medicine cabinet before now, but will definitely add it ASAP.

I'll likely get some piperine as well, but need to do some research before I can take it. DH can, though, so will get it for him regardless.

Thank you, summerthyme - I really appreciate this "hands on" experience. I bought the combo several months ago - now I'll order them separately.

summerthyme said:

Also... take the piperine warnings SERIOUSLY... it could cause major problems for people taking some Rx drugs. There are currently no known problems with OTC meds, however.

*******************************************


So.... FWIW. I'm absolutely making sure I'll have plenty of the standardized turmeric capsules in my preps.

These folks have a combination product... I personally wouldn't use it by choice, because I want to be able to take as much of the curcumin as I feel necessary, and while it's impossible to overdose on that herb, it IS possible to take too much piperine. But, it may be convenient enough for most that I'll post the link:
http://www.puritan.com/pages/iq.asp?SearchText=bioperine&searchterm=bioperine&rdcnt=1

MAXIMUM dose of the piperine is 20 mgs daily, and it's highly recommended to not take more than 10 mgs. For folks taking Rx meds... DO NOT TAKE PIPERINE without discussing it with your doc, or using the 'net to check for "interactions'. IT CAN CHANGE ABSORPTION OF SOME DRUGS!!!

Summerthyme

Click to expand...

What a timely post, S, thank you very much for sharing that info. I was in the process of submitting an order to Puritans Pride while reading your post. So I added their Curcumin/Piperine combo to the order. I already have some elderberry, but I want to have all this stuff available, just in case. Case in point, today's Douglas County newspaper has a front-page article (http://www.nrtoday.com/article/20090626/NEWS/906269932/1055) noting that the first case of H1N1 has been confirmed in the county. Didn't require hospitalization and the kid is recovering...but if this thing mutates during the Fall, immune-compromised people like me need to be ready for it.

Summerthyme,

I'm glad you posted this to the Main or I might not have seen it.

How is hubby today? Is he still taking the Tumeric and Piperine?

MM

I can add my testimony that I take Turmeric 95%CURCUMIN to control Rheumatoid ARTHRITIS in my hands. It completely eliminates ALL PAIN and inflammation.

I take ONE 500mg tablet a day to PREVENT flare-ups, but if I get run-down or otherwise ill and get a flare up of joint inflammation and pain IN SPITE OF the preventive dose, I MERELY INCREASE THE DOSE OF CURCUMIN TO 2 OR 3 TABLETS AND GET SUCH IMMEDIATE RELIEF THAT EVEN PAIN MEDS ARE UNNECESSARY.

A couple of months ago, I was just on the one pill a day prevention dose of curcumin BUT I WAS HAVING TROUBLE SLEEPING, getting only one to three hours a night sleep and suddenly one day I could FEEL THE Rheumatoid Arthritis moving to the joints in the MIDDLE OF MY SPINE, FLaring up and causing the exact same syptoms and pain I get in my hands! THAT REALLY SCARED ME.

I took THREE 500mg curcumin tablets and the spinal pain that had been dogging me and getting worse daily IMMEDIATELY BUT GRADUALLY STARTED GOING AWAY AND WAS GONE COMPLETELY THE NEXT DAY.

JUST WANTED TO ADD THIS INFORMATION I LEARNED YESTERDAY FOR YOU ALL TO FILE FOR FUTURE CONSIDERATION:

A friend who HAD TERRIBLY DISFIGURED TWISTED, KNARLED HANDS AND FOR YEARS THOUGHT HE HAD RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS IN HIS HANDS went to another doctor and LEARNED HE ACTUALLY HAD GOUT IN HIS HANDS!! He changed to gout medication and diet changes and HIS HANDS HAVE RETURNED TO NORMAL!!!!!!!!!!!!

ain't, I know you've posted it before, but where do you get your Tumeric 95% from?

squeeks

I bought ONE bottle locally. I then found the SAME BRAND, SAME STUFF ONLINE for half the price. (and no tax).

I get NATURES WAY TURMERIC 95% CURCUMIN 500mg tablets from iherb.com. I usually buy the biggest bottle and several bottles at a time.

Summerthyme, do you have reason to suspect that your husband had the H1n1 influenza?

FJ

Milkmaid... yeah, I wanted it on the main at least for a time, because I know summer is a busy time for everyone and not everyone has time to go to the various subforums.

Hubby is doing much better... very weak (meaning he's "only" working 6 -8 hours a day), but getting his appetite back and no longer letting me do all the chores. That fact that he literally spent all day Friday in bed, letting me do all of the chores, is a real hint of how bad this virus is!

We discontinued the turmeric and piperine when the inflammation stopped coming back... IIRC (it's been a very busy week) it was Friday night, so he took it for about 48 hours.

I'm not sure how to exactly tell people when they need to consider taking it... at lower doses it's certainly not toxic, but there's no sense in taking more stuff than you need to treat your particular case. (even with herbs, I tend to be quite conservative as far as "prescribing" their use... even the safest stuff generally doesn't do more good in larger doses).

I think the best way to describe what we felt when the inflammation began is "shooting, fiery pain"... nerve pain tends to be described that way, much more than an "aching" type pain. Or, of course, if your joints actually do feel hot- either to the patient or a caregiver. I didn't develop the "hot" joints, but I did have severe inflammation and heat in my spine, which caused sciatic pain down both legs (something I haven't had much in years since my back surgery). Also, my damaged foot from the bout of MRSA has been very painful, with one joint feeling like it has a live coal in it. Not fun..

And, of course, I would take it immediately if the virus begins to cause lung congestion. I'd probably also suggest that anyone with previous lung issues (asthma, COPD, emphysema, or simply someone who "always gets pneumonia" when the flu is going around) would benefit from it, and should probably take it from the beginning.

One last idea... anyone in the "gallbladder disease age group" (used to be fat, female and forty... that's probably no longer PC!) may want to try turmeric at least ONCE before they need it... the very last thing you'd need is an acute gall bladder attack at the same time you're fighting the flu!

Summerthyme

Whoops...we were typing at the same time...

FJ... yes, my daughter teaches school in a county where they've declared a state of emergency because of the very high incidence of H1N1, and her doctor said she had a classic case. They haven't been testing many recently, because 99% of those tested have come back positive. She hosted a bridal shower for my youngest son on a Saturday... and then began getting sick on Sunday. I caught it from her, as did at least 6 other people at the shower (so much for "stay home when you feel sick- by then, it's AT LEAST 24 hours too late!).

And hubby, naturally enough, caught it from me.

Since we're essentially homebodies who rarely interact with the public, and since anyone with "classic" influenza symptoms is presumed to have H1N1... it's very likely that's what we had.

summerthyme

Summerthyme, any idea on the dosing of turmeric powder if you don't have bottled curcumin on hand?

Kerry Ann... it's going to be difficult to take enough, I suspect, although if you were desperate... well, you probably could do it. Pure turmeric root powder is between 2% and 3.2% curcumin. We used a dose of 600-900 mgs curcumin plus piperine, which would require between an ounce and an ounce and a half of turmeric powder.

I haven't weighed any turmeric powder yet to see how many capsules that would be (a size 00 capsule holds about 1/2 tsp)... but I'm guessing it's going to be quite a few.

Some herbal authorities have suggested dosages between half a teaspoon three times a day of a mixture of 16 parts of turmeric powder to 1 part of ground black pepper, and two teaspoons of turmeric powder and half a teaspoon of ground black pepper per day... although this was for arthritis and other chronic conditions.

You could make a tincture, as curcumin is almost completely soluble in alcohol. I'd use the herbal standard of 1:5 ratio (1/4 cup turmeric to 1 1/4 cups 100 proof vodka). Dosage recommendations are quite variable (and I haven't used it this way... yet. I've got some soaking now) but seem to be between 1/8 tsp and 1/2 tsp 3x a day... in tea, juice or whatever. I suspect this is the best way to "extract" the curcumin at home...

summerthyme

summerthyme said:

Kerry Ann... it's going to be difficult to take enough, I suspect, although if you were desperate... well, you probably could do it. Pure turmeric root powder is between 2% and 3.2% curcumin. We used a dose of 600-900 mgs curcumin plus piperine, which would require between an ounce and an ounce and a half of turmeric powder.

I haven't weighed any turmeric powder yet to see how many capsules that would be (a size 00 capsule holds about 1/2 tsp)... but I'm guessing it's going to be quite a few.

Some herbal authorities have suggested dosages between half a teaspoon three times a day of a mixture of 16 parts of turmeric powder to 1 part of ground black pepper, and two teaspoons of turmeric powder and half a teaspoon of ground black pepper per day... although this was for arthritis and other chronic conditions.

You could make a tincture, as curcumin is almost completely soluble in alcohol. I'd use the herbal standard of 1:5 ratio (1/4 cup turmeric to 1 1/4 cups 100 proof vodka). Dosage recommendations are quite variable (and I haven't used it this way... yet. I've got some soaking now) but seem to be between 1/8 tsp and 1/2 tsp 3x a day... in tea, juice or whatever. I suspect this is the best way to "extract" the curcumin at home...

summerthyme

Click to expand...

Cool. I've got a big bag of the Indian stuff unopened.

Yay!


Thanks, again!

.

btt

Summerthyme: I can get Ground Tumeric @ Herbalcom for $2.40/lb.

http://www.herbalcom.com/store.php3...tR-T&session=07c4db8bbc3ceea19c9d4d0c6902bd6e

Is this the same stuff you were referring to?

If you were to "load your own" capsules, would you use the 0 or the 00 empty capsules for a "fill it" 300mg dosage? IIRC. dosing isn't critical with tumeric, and I know some capsules are sized to "scrape it flat and go" at various dosages for powders.

Any help will be appreciated.

Fleataxi

Very nice seeing people be their own doctor during crunch time. Makes feel good to be American ...and human.

Summerthyme so very glad You & Hubby are doing well!

Please PM me when you get a chance later in the week.

Our Prayers are with your family.

Okay, now I'm confused.

You said your husband did NOT have "lung" symptoms. Doesn't the very definition of influenza mean there is upper respiratory involvement?

Yes, I know this "novel" flu includes aches and pains, GI and other symptoms, but doesn't it at least INCLUDE respiratory problems???

www.swansonvitamins.com

Curcumin Complex
1 capsule contains 900mg Curcumin Complex 95% Curcuminoids
and 5 mg Bioperine (piper nigrum)

"Upper respiratory" is not "lung"....

Hmmm,... where to start.

First... ND is correct.

I should have been a bit clearer and said hubby never developed signs of pneumonia or even bronchitis... he DID (and still does, although it's improving) have a badly inflamed trachea (at least, that's how it felt to him), but I suspect the various herbal remedies kept it out of his lungs. Both of us had a hacking cough, but it was from the ridiculous amount of mucous production dripping down the back of our throats (post nasal drip) and the resulting irritation, not clogged lungs. Even then, it was exquisitely painful to cough, because of the irritation of the trachea. This virus causes more inflammation than anything I've ever seen. (and we had to go back to the turmeric/curcumin again last night, because although his peripheral (limb) joints are nice and cool, it hit his spine... nasty.)

Anyway... it's not *necessarily* "only flu if the lungs are involved", but it's certainly true that an untreated case will hit the lungs most of the time.

Fleataxi... yep, that's the stuff. It's amazing how potent that "food spice" is! (BTW...curcumin is a COXX-2 inhibitor... has the same (good) effects that Vioxx and Celebrex have. But... for whatever reason (God is a better chemist?) it doesn't have the potential for the dangerous side effects those drugs have...)

I've always figured that the size 00 capsules hold about 500 mgs (1/2 gram). Normal dose of curcumin is around 300 mgs, and if the turmeric powder is 3%, you'd get 15 mgs in each capsule. You'll be taking a lot of capsules, but it's probably doable. A good reloading scale can be really useful for figuring out how much you've got in an average capsule.

I'd probably try taking a 300 mg dose first, if inflammatory symptoms appear, and see how it works. I was pretty confident that hubby could safely take a larger dose without causing adverse health problems, and I wanted to knock out that inflammation before it began causing damage in the joints (not sure how likely that was, but I know that with the H5N1 flu, some survivors are reporting permanant problems of various types). Last night, 600 mgs did knock the heat out of his spine in short order.

Hope that helps. I'm going to be off the computer most of the next couple days, but I'll try to check in once in awhile.

Summerthyme

Summerthyme,

How did you contract this? Sorry if you already explained.

I sure hope that having it now makes you immune to this coming fall's version of it. I'd hate to see how bad off you'd have been without your herbal remedies. However from reading your posts, it sounds like you could have completely been better sooner, if only you would allow yourself the rest you both needed.

Growing up when I or other members of my family had the flu, none of us ever had any cold-like symptoms. It was strictly stomach virus, vomitting, aches +fever. I'm not sure when respiratory symptoms became part of Flu symptoms since I've never had them. But I still find that odd.

In hindsight, any advice you can give the rest of us?

MM

piperene makes the curcumin more absorbable in the gut, which is why its used, or the blood levels dont get high enough. but in researching curcumin some years back, I found studies on line that indicated that quercitin did the same thing. If you prefer not to use piperene to boost absorbtion, quercitin would be a good alternative with some of its own benefits.

Milk Maid... I caught it from my daughter, who hosted a bridal shower for our youngest son's fiance on June 6th. She teaches school in a county which has declared a state of emergency because there is so much H1N1 there. (interestingly, she was in Mexico on vacation when this whole thing blew up in May, and didn't catch it then!)

She had NO symptoms at the shower... but at least 6 people caught it there. She started feeling sick the next day, and used the elderberry I hand out like candy every time any of my kids come home. Hers also stayed pretty much in her head, although she had a terrible cough which was very painful, and did develop a secondary bacterial sinus infection which required antibiotics.

I showed the first symptoms exactly 7 days later. Hubby showed his first 7 days after mine.

Yes, I'm sure we'd have recovered sooner if we'd been able to rest... it simply is NOT possible on the farm, short of hospitalization. Mine was much shorter duration and I bounced back a LOT quicker, probably because except for the one day when I had to help because we were haying (and I ended up skipping a couple doses of elderberry, which was a BIG mistake), I DID rest. The day after I overdid, I didn't have any choice... I don't think I could have gotten out of bed if the house was on fire.

What you're describing as your family's "flu" symptoms almost certainly isn't influenza. It is classic Norwalk virus, though... and also very common grouping of symptoms for many food poisoning cases. Influenza is a whole different animal, and if you ever have it, you never see "it's just 'flu'" in the same way again. Someone mentioned somewhere in these threads "if you feel lousy and don't want to get out of bed, you probably have Norwalk or another virus. If you CAN'T get out of bed, it's probably influenza". That's pretty much accurate... the weakness and heaviness in the limbs this bug causes is disabling at it's worst.

Advice? First, unless you can TOTALLY self quarantine for the next 12 months (or at least through this winter), you probably can't avoid catching it. Between the average person being totally used to taking some OTC "cold and flu" meds and continuing to go to work, and the fact that people are quite contagious at least 24 hours before they have a clue that they are sick...almost everyone is going to be exposed.

Some will be mild cases (true "mild", not the CDC definition of "don't need a vent"!) for various reasons... even in 1918 some people barely noticed their illness, while others died before they fully realized how sick they were. Some... won't be.

Get ANYTHING you might need to treat it in your house now. You can't count on "hoping" that at least one person in the household will be healthy, although you can pray it happens. And if this keeps hitting more people, supplies of most common OTC meds will be in short supply. The dried elderberry supply was pretty well wiped out nationwide in May when this first hit... the supplies of alternatives are VERY thin.

What we found helpful was elderberry, turmeric/curcumin, codiene for cough and pain, Mucinex (guaifsinian- a mucolytic and expectorant) lots of juice and gatorade. You'll go through tons of tissues, if you get the amount of mucous production we saw. We lost almost all appetite, and at the worst, didn't really feel like sitting up to eat.

The minute you begin to develop a scratchy throat, especially if it is accompanied by headache, physical fatigue (my first symptom was on day 6 after exposure, and it wasn't until later that I connected it with the flu- I was just dragging tired; my legs and arms felt like they weighed a thousand pounds each. I was blaming it on some busy days and the whole shower extras... but then that night I started the sore throat and headache)... start treating it aggressively. Probably TamiFlu is still a good idea, although I think we're going to see resistance all too soon. Whatever you are using, don't skip doses!

REST... and yes, I know it can be impossible. However, especially if you have a job where you're paid by the hour and don't have paid sick days... think hard about this! Taking 2 days off in the beginning and treating it aggressively may save you a month of lost work time.

TREAT THE FEVER. At least so far, the avian flu component is making this a "heat loving" virus, so that the often correct advice to "take a hot bath and encourage a high body temperature to "burn it out"" may be dangerous with this virus.

And WATCH the patient. If you live alone, this is going to be a problem. I fully expect to start hearing about people being found dead in their homes, if this gets more virulent. If you are alone, consider setting up some type of "check in" with a friend or relative... and DO IT. Major danger signs are ANY hint of blue color in lips, fingernail beds or an ashen/gray skin color. Hubby was the color of bad buttermilk for about three days, but never showed any signs of oxygen deprivation. If the cough begins to sound "wet", and you're not managing to cough the mucous and garbage out of your lungs, it's probably time to get to the ER- if they're still able to take patients.

Given how bad the inflammatory symptoms were, (and they moved around to various joints for at least 3 days... I'm still getting "jolts" from outraged nerves, and I've been pretty well back to normal for over a week), I'd use the turmeric/curcumin either from the beginning, OR as soon as you notice any hint of lung involvement.

The Pinot Noir wine (for it's resveratrol content) actually may have a secondary benefit, for those who can tolerate alcohol. Taking a couple ounces every couple hours isn't going to make you drunk (even I don't feel it at that dose, and I"m a VERY cheap date! LOL!), but it will relax you slightly, and allow you to rest.

Masks and gloves for caregivers can't hurt, but I suspect it's going to be almost impossible to keep this from going through a family, unless you can completely isolate the first person who gets sick (and hope no one else was exposed to their source). Elderberry for prevention does seem to help in many cases... DD's hubby hasn't caught it yet, despite being exposed both to her, and to his school classes. His comment was "half my classes are hacking up a lung, but I keep taking the elderberry and I'm fine". At the least, it may help keep the severity down.

KEEP A RECORD of symptoms, dates, times and treatments. By the time it's 2 am on the third night of near constant vigil, you don't remember your own name, much less if that was the third, or fourth dose of elderberry, or if you gave ibuprofen, or when. Keep track of fever, etc, on this record as well, and if you decide to see your doc or go to the hospital, take it along. It might be helpful either for your own info, or if you decide to post to help others out, if you record your observations as far as the efficacy (or lack thereof) of the treatments you try.

One other (out there) fact: cannabis is also reported to be an effective treatment for cytokine storm. I'm not going to suggest you break the law, but if someone has an Rx for medical marijuana, it might be worth trying, both for it's sedative and analgesic effects and also for it's inflammation suppressant activity.

Summerthyme

I am bumping this thread so it stays fairly close to the first page on the main. Important info that could get lost otherwise.

Thanks Summer for all your help.

Amazing. You are a wealth of information. Thanks Summerthyme!!

I got it, too

Hey, Summerthyme: I trust you and your family are feeling better.

Here's my story. I had a friend bring by a tiller the last Tuesday of June[30th] and I did the tilling while he graciously hoed around some of the zucchini and squash which were too close together to get in close to with the tiller. Well, the tiller was an older Briggs and Stratton and our garden soil was very hard so you had to really hold back on the handles to allow the tines to dig into the hard packed soil.

After two hours I was pretty whipped and I noticed how really, really sore my joints were. I figured this was just because I hadn't done this work for awhile. That was about 3:00pm. Within another hour I noticed that I really didn't feel well at all, and I was running a noticeable temperature, headache, sensitivity to light and very thirsty. So, I thought to myself, I must have picked up that damn 'flu' and I was getting very concerned as I have what are commonly referred to as 'underlying' medical conditions.

Next I took some Ibuprofen, and got into bed. I couldn't believe how quickly I went from in-the-garden to in-the-bed! The next symptom(s) to hit me were violent shivering and intense chills. Summerthyme, I don't recall you mentioning this as it was the worst case of chills and fever and sore joints all rolled up in one I can recall having. I thought this worth mentioning.

The next couple of days leading up to the July 4th weekend saw the BREWER in the bed with a 104F fever, suppressed appetite, joint pain, dull to sharp headache, and perspiration so intense i had to change the sheets and put my pillows in the dryer as I had felt like I had sprung a leak.I think by far the chills were the worst after the joint pain. I mean chills so intense you thought the fillings would come out of your teeth...that kinda chills.

I'm feeling better here a week later and I can tell everyone you will have no doubt as to whether you have been assaulted by this 'bug' or not. I took my elderberry extract and yes, I felt so bad i missed some dosages. Summerthyme has a good idea in writing down what you take and when you take it as you are going to fell so horrid you truly won't remember what you took and when. I did alternate Tylenol and Excedrin after I finished with the ibuprofen once the joint pain subsided. Fortunately, this 'stuff' didn't go to my lungs as is usually the case when I fall ill with anything that starts in my sinus'.

I took some cool showers to try to reduce the fever, a cold cloth on the forehead and chest, and drank gallons of water [fortunately, I have a water purifier that keeps the water chilled] all the time I was sick.

Folks, you should prepare for this now. I found though I didn't feel like eating at all a quick can of fruit, vienna sausages, and some potato salad went a long way to just get something on my stomach first thing in the morning after long virtually restless/sleepless nights. BTW, I had the curcumin in my 'stash' and felt so bad, and not thinking straight, I forgot all about it. I won't do that again. That is how sick I was.

anyone know what i could hide the taste in if i have to dose my 4-year-old? no way she could swallow the capsule and i'm not sure how to hide the taste.

summerthyme said:

MAXIMUM dose of the piperine is 20 mgs daily, and it's highly recommended to not take more than 10 mgs. For folks taking Rx meds... DO NOT TAKE PIPERINE without discussing it with your doc, or using the 'net to check for "interactions'. IT CAN CHANGE ABSORPTION OF SOME DRUGS!!!

Summerthyme

Click to expand...

I'm trying to find out if piperine would affect the absorption of insulin; haven't come up with anything relevant on the internet. If there is a possiblity of interaction, that might affect the timing of the piperine use considerably. No? Any thoughts???

In the last week or so I have started to come down with something...not just once, but several times. I'm not really sure what it was. I started to feel such an overwhelming tiredness, (to the point that I could hardly put one foot in front of the other.) Sore throat (only on one side) and sore chest. Each time I'd take a double shot glass of Elderberry tincture and go to bed...and sleep it away. One time I slept 10 hours; a record for me since the most I sleep is 7 hours ever.

All 3 times I awoke to feel completely fine again. I have no idea what is trying to "Get me" but I keep beating it back.

Here's my 2-cents!

Anyone that believes they may have the A(H1N1) flu should get as much rest as possible. They should do no manual labor whats-so-ever. Their life may depend on it!.......Ray

Wow... Brewer, that was nasty. Please be warned... hubby has had several relapses, basically inflammatory symptoms that keep hitting various organs and parts of the body, although his temperature has been normal for 2 weeks, and I can't imagine he has any virus left in his system. Ray is absolutely correct that if you have ANY choice, you need to rest. As I said in the post above, "taking two days off work now may save you a month off in the long run". Yes, this thing IS that virulent.

Brewer... probably because we hit the elderberry very early (hubby was taking preventative doses when he got sick; it's helpful but it's not perfect. Then again, neither is Tamiflu), we didn't get the shaking chills and fever. Ours was more of a "very touchy thermostat"... one sheet wasn't warm enough, a light blanket had us pouring sweat. I suspect the elderberry may have kept it from invading your lungs... and if it can do that, it's well worth having on hand. You may still find curcumin useful if you feel inflammatory symptoms in the next week or two... I don't have arthritis in my knees, but both of them felt like I did for almost 10 days. Very, very weird bug.

nharold... This is truly something you're going to have to address with your doctor. Piperine is rather an amazing herbal substance. It may- or may not (I can't find anything definitive) affect insulin absorption in a diabetic, but it seems to have some major potential in alleviating or preventing some of the nasty health issues diabetes causes! It also seems to have beneficial effects on insulin resistance, so it's very possible insulin dosage might need to be adjusted if someone does take piperine.

Note that the doses are HUGE... 10mg/kg is way more than anyone is going to take, I hope!

Abstract
Using diabetes mellitus as a model of oxidative damage, this study investigated whether subacute treatment (10mg/kg/day, intraperitoneally for 14 days) with the compound piperine would protect against diabetes-induced oxidative stress in 30-day streptozotocin-induced diabetic Sprague-Dawley rats. Liver, kidney, brain, and heart were assayed for degree of lipid peroxidation, reduced and oxidized glutathione (GSH and GSSG, respectively) content, and activities of the free-radical detoxifying enzymes catalase, superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase, and glutathione reductase. Piperine treatment of normal rats enhanced hepatic GSSG concentration by 100% and decreased renal GSH concentration by 35% and renal glutathione reductase activity by 25% when compared to normal controls. All tissues from diabetic animals exhibited disturbances in antioxidant defense when compared with normal controls. Treatment with piperine reversed the diabetic effects on GSSG concentration in brain, on renal glutathione peroxidase and superoxide dismutase activities, and on cardiac glutathione reductase activity and lipid peroxidation. Piperine treatment did not reverse the effects of diabetes on hepatic GSH concentrations, lipid peroxidation, or glutathione peroxidase or catalase activities; on renal superoxide dismutase activity; or on cardiac glutathione peroxidase or catalase activities. These data indicate that subacute treatment with piperine for 14 days is only partially effective as an antioxidant therapy in diabetes

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But... you bring up a point I hadn't addressed or considered much, as we don't have diabetics in our family... INSULIN and not eating. This bug hits the appetite HARD... even if you are well enough to sit up in bed, there simply is no interest in eating. And that was without any digestive symptoms to speak of. Folks who are insulin dependant are going to need to carefully monitor their blood sugars, probably more often than they do normally.

As far as hiding the taste... oh, boy. I'm really not sure. Anyone have any good ideas? It's not going to be easy to hide in anything sweet. Gonna have to think about that for a bit...

Summerthyme

summerthyme said:

Wow... Brewer, that was nasty. Please be warned... hubby has had several relapses, basically inflammatory symptoms that keep hitting various organs and parts of the body, although his temperature has been normal for 2 weeks, and I can't imagine he has any virus left in his system. Ray is absolutely correct that if you have ANY choice, you need to rest. As I said in the post above, "taking two days off work now may save you a month off in the long run". Yes, this thing IS that virulent.

Brewer... probably because we hit the elderberry very early (hubby was taking preventative doses when he got sick; it's helpful but it's not perfect. Then again, neither is Tamiflu), we didn't get the shaking chills and fever. Ours was more of a "very touchy thermostat"... one sheet wasn't warm enough, a light blanket had us pouring sweat. I suspect the elderberry may have kept it from invading your lungs... and if it can do that, it's well worth having on hand. You may still find curcumin useful if you feel inflammatory symptoms in the next week or two... I don't have arthritis in my knees, but both of them felt like I did for almost 10 days. Very, very weird bug.

nharold... This is truly something you're going to have to address with your doctor. Piperine is rather an amazing herbal substance. It may- or may not (I can't find anything definitive) affect insulin absorption in a diabetic, but it seems to have some major potential in alleviating or preventing some of the nasty health issues diabetes causes! It also seems to have beneficial effects on insulin resistance, so it's very possible insulin dosage might need to be adjusted if someone does take piperine.

Note that the doses are HUGE... 10mg/kg is way more than anyone is going to take, I hope!


But... you bring up a point I hadn't addressed or considered much, as we don't have diabetics in our family... INSULIN and not eating. This bug hits the appetite HARD... even if you are well enough to sit up in bed, there simply is no interest in eating. And that was without any digestive symptoms to speak of. Folks who are insulin dependant are going to need to carefully monitor their blood sugars, probably more often than they do normally.

As far as hiding the taste... oh, boy. I'm really not sure. Anyone have any good ideas? It's not going to be easy to hide in anything sweet. Gonna have to think about that for a bit...

Summerthyme

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Summerthyme, thanks for your continued updates, I believe they will be very helpful as this virus takes a stronger foothold............Ray

meandk0610 said:

anyone know what i could hide the taste in if i have to dose my 4-year-old? no way she could swallow the capsule and i'm not sure how to hide the taste.

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I'd put it in applesauce or ice cream.

Would there be any conflict with taking the curcumin with piperene if you take blood pressure medicine? V

vessie... probably! If you google piperine + the name of the med, you'll likely get a better answer. Or, if you want to PM me with the med name (maybe the generic name as well as the brand name), I could look it up in the Herbal PDR... which I have thanks to the wonderful generosity of a poster here, who sent me a CD copy.

Summerthyme

Thanks Summerthyme! I'll pm you as soon as I can! V