USA Homeland Security and Drivers License

Sully

Inactive
Dec. 30th I went to renew my drivers license. It has always been a simple procedure, no problem...until this year. I have always used my middle name instead of my first name and that's what was on my license (middle name) with middle initial of my maiden name. When the officer typed in my SS# and name he asked if I had remarried..No, been married to the same man for 40 years. He asked if I had my SS card and I did ( I know you shouldn't carry it but I always have). He typed my given name and SS# and it popped up. I explained why the name was different on my license. He said 2 weeks earlier they had a BIG meeting with Homeland Security and the name on the license and SS card have to match to get a drivers license. He said I had to bring my Birth Certificate. That's wonderful, I said, my license expires in 5 days and I haven't seen my BC in decades. He told me next year ( which I assumed it to be 2009 since it was the the last couple of days of 2008) everyone would have to show their BC to renew their license. He gave me a number to call to order it.

So I got home and called to order a copy of my BC. They would overnight it for a fee of $27.00 but it had to be processed and would really take 5 to 7 days before I actually got it. It took 7 days.

I went back yesterday with my BC . A female officer called my number and I explained to her why my license was expired and handed her my BC. I said Homeland Security is making it mighty hard just to get a drivers license renewed. She said, Yes and it's going to get a whole lot worse.

I couldn't help thinking.. I've been getting my license renewed, with the same name on it, for 40 some years and now I had to have a BC to just renew it. But we are about to have a President that doesn't even have to prove that he is an American. Something's not right with this picture.

Sully
 

tm1439m

Veteran Member
Well if he ever gets another drivers license he better have to show his birth certificate at that time!
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
If you'd said your name was "Emanuel Garcia" (or some other mexican name) I bet you would've been able to renew without ANY documentation.
 

NC Susan

Deceased
Did she do a digital foto of you with the laser points on your face for measurements?

My daughter got her license renewed last year, and I realized that the DMV fotographer had measured and digitized all points of my kids face.

Mine is up for renewal this year.
The last two I remember was with a polaroid cut and pasted to the license, and the next was a computer foto, now that we have Homeland it may require dental records by the time my grandson get his license in 3 years.
 

BigBadBossyDog

Inactive
A similar thing happened to me. I accidentally let my DL expire. Just stupidity on my part. Turned my house upside down looking for my BC. Finally had to call the state where I was born. Mine was already expired so I didn't bother with overnight expenses.

OBamBam won't have to worry. He'll be chauffered around the rest of his life.
 

Sully

Inactive
If you'd said your name was "Emanuel Garcia" (or some other mexican name) I bet you would've been able to renew without ANY documentation.

Well, I wouldn't doubt that at all,,,but you'd really think that THAT should be the reason they're getting so strict.

NC Susan. She just took my pic the same way as always...about 30 seconds later she handed me my license.

Sully
 

Ender

Inactive
Actually, even DLs are unlawful as we have the right to travel as an American. A license is supposed to be for an activity that would otherwise be considered illegal.

It will now just become more apparent how unfree and socialized we really are.
 

Tundra Gypsy

Veteran Member
Someone (DMV or DHS) needs to send those who's licenses are about to expire the information on what documents they will need to renew. :( They are going to have a lot of pissed off people at DMV if they don't. My BC and my current license don't have the same name because I'm married; duh. I wonder if they will accept a passport instead??
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Ender, we've had discussion threads on that issue before. The RIGHT TO TRAVEL is not what's granted by a driver's license; it's the PRIVILEGE of driving a motor vehicle on public roads. One must be able to show competency, as well as an understanding of traffic laws. The DL is the proof of that. If you choose to WALK or talk public transportation, you need have no documents. (Flying on a commercial carrier is an exception, and if a person had the time and $'s, I'd be willing to bet that a successful lawsuit against having to "prove" one's identity could be had.)

In the same vein, would you want an UNLICENSED PILOT flying you from L.A. to Dallas? Why or why not?

Just askin'.....
 

rhughe13

Heart of Dixie
I've gotta get my DL renewed today. It'll be interesting to see what I need different from the last time. It always continues to get worse. But I was required to show a BC upon getting my initial DL at the age of 16.

At some point I'm gonna just sell my vehicles and purchase an amish buggy and leave turds on the roadways.
 

Desperado

Membership Revoked
I just did mine in November on line.
It's good til 2016.... No Problems no hassle.
The funny thing is my picture on the license is from 2000.
Florida finally did something right.
 
Dec. 30th I went to renew my drivers license. It has always been a simple procedure, no problem...until this year. I have always used my middle name instead of my first name and that's what was on my license (middle name) with middle initial of my maiden name. When the officer typed in my SS# and name he asked if I had remarried..No, been married to the same man for 40 years. He asked if I had my SS card and I did ( I know you shouldn't carry it but I always have). He typed my given name and SS# and it popped up. I explained why the name was different on my license. He said 2 weeks earlier they had a BIG meeting with Homeland Security and the name on the license and SS card have to match to get a drivers license. He said I had to bring my Birth Certificate. That's wonderful, I said, my license expires in 5 days and I haven't seen my BC in decades. He told me next year ( which I assumed it to be 2009 since it was the the last couple of days of 2008) everyone would have to show their BC to renew their license. He gave me a number to call to order it.

So I got home and called to order a copy of my BC. They would overnight it for a fee of $27.00 but it had to be processed and would really take 5 to 7 days before I actually got it. It took 7 days.

I went back yesterday with my BC . A female officer called my number and I explained to her why my license was expired and handed her my BC. I said Homeland Security is making it mighty hard just to get a drivers license renewed. She said, Yes and it's going to get a whole lot worse.

I couldn't help thinking.. I've been getting my license renewed, with the same name on it, for 40 some years and now I had to have a BC to just renew it. But we are about to have a President that doesn't even have to prove that he is an American. Something's not right with this picture.

Sully

Sully,

What state DMV are you dealing with?


intothegoodnight
 

LONEWOLF

Inactive
So why is Homeland Security involved with whether or not you understand traffic laws and are a competent driver?? And a BC is necessary for some sort of proof of same? Funny, these things we call "laws".
 

rhughe13

Heart of Dixie
I just did mine in November on line.
It's good til 2016.... No Problems no hassle.
The funny thing is my picture on the license is from 2000.
Florida finally did something right.

If AL gives me too much crap, I have access to getting an FL DL. Plus I can drive my boat on AL waterways without a boating license if I have an out of state license.
 

Lone Eagle Woman

Veteran Member
Now as for myself, some years ago when my DL needed to be renewed,
I let it expire. I have had no doubts as to this being the correct action. This
was because of several years before this, I got rid of my vehicle and went
back to being carless. Now wherever I go I either Walk, Bicycle, or go by
Public Transportation. Also I refuse to Fly Completely anymore for whatever
reason. Then how much of each year I am just out in the back wilds living
and wandering around in the wilds. The wilds can take care of your every
need if you just know the old skills. Now you might ask if I have ever had a
problem with having an expired outdated DL for my ID .... Not Yet I haven't.
I have been asked only a few few few times for my ID since I gave up driving
and let my DL expire. I tell them the story that I gave up driving and no one
up to now has given me a problem. Again I have NEVER had a problem on this in
having an old expired DL for my ID.

And one story on this, some years ago I got a ride with a cop in Southern
Utah while I was hiking and wandering around near the town of Tropic - Escalante.
Well, the cop asked for my ID and he saw it was expired. Then I told him how I had
given up driving and I let my DL expire. He also did not give me a problem whatsoever.

I also besides giving up driving and letting my DL expire, cut up ALL my
Credit Cards. I would advocate to everyone in going to the very simple life
in this day and age with such a Police State coming upon us.
 

nuance4u

Contributing Member
Washington State does not require social security number

If you'd said your name was "Emanuel Garcia" (or some other mexican name) I bet you would've been able to renew without ANY documentation.

http://www.kndo.com/Global/story.asp?S=9315297

Driver's License Requirements Pushing Illegal Immigrants to Washington.

Posted: Nov 7, 2008 10:44 PM PST

Updated: Nov 8, 2008 09:10 PM PST







KENNEWICK, Wash. - Requirements banning illegal immigrants from getting an Oregon drivers license could be sending them North to get one in Washington.

Representatives with the Department of Motor Vehicles in Oregon report the number of Spanish speakers taking the drivers license test has gone down by 90%.

A new Oregon law requires drivers to have a social security number to qualify for a drivers license. In Washington the same rule dosen't apply, and drivers need only show a social security declaration meaning they don't have a SSN. Neither state can officially say there's any proof the new law is pushing illegal immigrants from Oregon to Washington. However, Selena Davis with Washington's DOL office in Olympia says the number of Spanish speakers taking the drivers tests in offices along the borders of Washington has almost doubled in the last year.

"The increase in overall Spanish knowledge tests taken at these offices has increased by 47%. That's when you look at July, August and September from 07 to 08," said Davis.

Davis said the cities seeing an increase in Spanish speaking drivers tests in Washington are Walla Walla, Goldendale, Kelso, Vancouver and White Salmon, which are all fairly close to the border.
 

Ender

Inactive
In the same vein, would you want an UNLICENSED PILOT flying you from L.A. to Dallas? Why or why not?

That's a commercial use, Dennis; a license is appropriate.

Licenses do not guarantee a driver can drive competently. I know many who have licenses who are very scary- as I am sure you do. They are a tracking device and a money mill.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
Ender, geez man. We've already discussed this TO DEATH in other threads. A license proves that:

1) A person has passed a "law test" and knows the rules for whatever mode of transportation they're going to be operating
2) They've demonstrated at least minimal competency to operate the hardware

Even a private plane pilot has to have a pilot's license. I ask you again: would you want an UNLICENSED PILOT flying around over your house?


Whether a person is ultimately (in your or my opinion) a "competent" driver/pilot/etc isn't the issue AT ALL. They demonstrated enough knowledge and physical proficiency to meet minimum requirements for the operation of that vehicle/aircraft.
 

Ender

Inactive
I ask you again: would you want an UNLICENSED PILOT flying around over your house?

Like the Navy pilot that wiped out that poor San Diego family?

I do not mean to create a thread drift, and I know it has been discussed to death- but that does not mean anyone really understands the issue or the broad ramifications in a supposedly free country. I simply do not believe in being licensed for lawful activities- such as driving or marriage. There are many ways to make sure that people take responsibility when they travel.

:shr:
 

NC Susan

Deceased
Well, here in NC, we are the first to champion in the NWO with ID
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57502

[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]North American Union
driver's license created
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+1]Logo intended to standardize
documentation across continent
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1]Posted: September 06, 2007
1:00 am Eastern

[/SIZE] [FONT=Palatino, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times, serif]By Jerome R. Corsi[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1] © 2009 WorldNetDaily.com [/SIZE]



NC4%20%282%29.jpg

New security logo on the reverse of North Carolina's driver's licenses
The first "North American Union" driver's license, complete with a hologram of the continent on the reverse, has been created in North Carolina.
"The North Carolina driver's license is 'North American Union' ready," charges William Gheen, president of Americans for Legal Immigration.
Gheen provided WND with a photo of an actual North Carolina license which clearly shows the hologram of the North American continent embedded on the reverse.
"The hologram looks exactly [like] the map of North America that is used as the background for the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America logo on the SPP website," Gheen told WND. "I object to the loss of sovereignty that is proceeding under the agreements being made by these unelected government bureaucrats who think we should be North American instead of the United States of America.
SPP.gif

Security and Prosperity Partnership logo
"To protest, I don't plan on applying for a North Carolina driver's license," Gheen told WND, "even though I am a resident of the state. I don't see how a Division of Motor Vehicles authorized in a Department of Transportation of a state of the United States can force me to have a license that is designed with a North American Union insignia printed on the backside.
"My decision not to get a North Carolina driver's license could have very difficult consequences for me," Gheen told WND. "Without a valid driver's license, I may not be able to drive a car, fly on an airplane, or enter a government building."
Gheen told WND he does not have a U.S. passport.
(Story continues below)
In 2005, WND reported North Carolina was the state where illegal immigrants go to get a driver's license, with busloads of aliens traveling south on I-95 to get an easy ID.
The Tar Heel State's requirements to obtain a license are weaker than those of many surrounding states.
Marge Howell, spokeswoman for the North Carolina DMV, affirmed to WND the state was embedding a hologram of North America on the back of its new driver's licenses.
"It's a security element that eventually will be on the back of every driver's license in North America," Howell told WND.
Howell explained the hologram of the continent was the creation of the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators, a tax-exempt, nonprofit organization that, according to the group's website, "develops model programs in [COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=&quot][COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=&quot]motor [/FONT][COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=&quot]vehicle[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] administration, law enforcement and highway safety."
Founded in 1933, AAMVA represents state and provincial officials in the United States and Canada who administer and enforce motor vehicle laws. The government of Mexico is also a member, though the individual Mexican states have yet to join.
According to the group's website, AAMVA's programs are designed "to encourage uniformity and reciprocity among the states and provinces."
"The goal of the North American hologram," Howell explained, "is to get one common element that law enforcement throughout the continent can look at on all driver's licenses and tell that the driver's license is an official document."
Jason King, spokesman for AAMVA, affirmed the North American hologram was created by AAMVA's [COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=&quot][COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=&quot]Uniform[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] Identification Subcommittee, a working group of its members.
He explained the goal is to create a continental security device that could be used by state and provincial motor vehicles agencies throughout North America, including the U.S., Canada and Mexico.
King referenced a document on the AAMVA website that describes guidelines for using the North America continent hologram as an Optical Variable Device (OVD) that AAMVA has now licensed with private manufacturers to produce.
AAMVA supplies member motor vehicle agencies with a quantity of North American continent hologram OVD foils to use on their driver's licenses and ID cards as needed.
As the AAMVA guidelines document explains, each North American hologram OVD foil is embedded with a unique set of control numbers that permit law enforcement electronic scanners to identify the exact jurisdiction and precise individual authorized to hold a driver's license or ID card.
"AAMVA understands its unique positioning and the continuing role identification security will play in helping the general public realize a safer North America," King explained to WND in an e-mail. "The association believes ID security will help increase national security, increase highway safety, reduce fraud and system abuse, increase efficiency and effectiveness, and achieve uniformity of processes and practices."
Jim Palmer, press director for ALIPAC, told WND his group first became aware of the hologram when Missouri State Rep. Jim Guest held a [COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=&quot][COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=&quot]seminar[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] in North Carolina to protest the Real ID law.
The surprise came at a meeting July 28 on the Real ID that Palmer held in Raleigh, N.C.
"When Rep. Guest asked participants to take out their driver's license and see what was on it," Palmer explained, "one gentleman was a state employee and on his license there was this hologram with the North American continent on the back. We were all surprised to see that on a North Carolina driver's license. Right there, that stopped the show."
Guest has formed a coalition called Legislators Against Real ID Act, or LARI.
"I was astonished when I saw that North American hologram on the North Carolina driver's license," Guest told WND. "I thought to myself that the state DMV has already included this North American symbol on the back of the driver's license without telling the people of North Carolina they were going to do this.
"I thought right then that this was going to be the prototype for the driver's license of the North American Union," Guest said.
"When we called the North Carolina DMV, they hedged at first," Guest said, "but finally they admitted that, yes, there was a North American continent hologram on the back of the license.
"This is part of a plan by bureaucrats and trade groups that act like bureaucrats to little by little transform us into a North American Union without any vote being taken and without explaining to the U.S. public what they are doing," Guest argued.
King explained AAMVA's Uniform Identification Subcommittee created a number of task forces, including the Card Design Specification that developed the North America hologram.
"The Task Group surveyed and met with many stakeholders during the development effort," King wrote to WND. "The Task Force gathered information from government and non-government users of the driver's License/ID card to determine their uses for the DL/ID card and how they believe the card should function. In addition, the Task Group surveyed and met with industry experts in the area of card production and security to gather their advice, especially about the physical security of the card."
King told WND the Task Group work was repeatedly reviewed by the UID Subcommittee as a whole, with final approval coming from the AAMVA Board.
In 2006, WND reported Pastor Rios Sanchez, 55, an illegal alien, was accused of killing three people, including two North Carolina State University students and a 26-year-old, while driving drunk.
"People who think the Real ID was created to keep illegal aliens from getting driver's licenses and IDs should come to North Carolina," Gheen told WND. "What the North Carolina DMV is doing is creating the basis for a continental driver's license.
"What difference does it make to North Carolina if an illegal alien gets a driver's license?" Gheen asked. "The photo on the license creates a close face scan that can be identified by face recognition technology, whether the DMV admits it or not.
"Illegal aliens who get driver's licenses are just being scanned in advance," Gheen concluded.
"Illegal aliens who get driver's licenses or IDs in North Carolina are just being prepared for their admission into the North America Union driver pool that North Carolina is at the vanguard of creating," Gheen said. "That is the truth, whether the North Carolina DMV or the AAMVA want to admit it or not."
King told WND North Carolina is the first AAMVA member jurisdiction to use the North America hologram on a driver's license or ID card.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
A marriage license I agree is ridiculous. But operating a multi-ton high-speed piece of machinery in public should require some proof-of-competency. Sorry, but IMO your "freedom" issues don't apply in that case. It's not the ACTIVITY (travel) being licensed; it's the METHOD of travel (operating a complex motor vehicle). But I doubt that you'll ever separate the two in your mind.
 

Publius

On TB every waking moment
ITs all part of the long term plan! First the 911 address conversion this where the document every home and who lives there, in the country with GPS and all new homes and out buildings must be ID'ed and entered into a data base at the nearest 911 command center. Next is the Real ID that you are reading about above and all the data must be entered into many data bases in the state and up loaded to a central data bases with the U.S. government!!! The D.O.D., FEMA, F.B.I. and there may be more.
 

Tennessee gal

Veteran Member
I've gotta get my DL renewed today. It'll be interesting to see what I need different from the last time. It always continues to get worse. But I was required to show a BC upon getting my initial DL at the age of 16.

At some point I'm gonna just sell my vehicles and purchase an amish buggy and leave turds on the roadways.

:lkick:
 
Ender, geez man. We've already discussed this TO DEATH in other threads. A license proves that:

1) A person has passed a "law test" and knows the rules for whatever mode of transportation they're going to be operating
2) They've demonstrated at least minimal competency to operate the hardware

Even a private plane pilot has to have a pilot's license. I ask you again: would you want an UNLICENSED PILOT flying around over your house?


Whether a person is ultimately (in your or my opinion) a "competent" driver/pilot/etc isn't the issue AT ALL. They demonstrated enough knowledge and physical proficiency to meet minimum requirements for the operation of that vehicle/aircraft.

Fine and dandy -- your argument position talks to the original reasons why states issued a D/L -- TODAY, the D/L info is now digitized, to include pictures and biometrics (in some states) that are real-time (or soon to be) accessible via computer to any "agency" that has a "need-to-know," which, of course, includes the FedGov and its minions, as well as foreign "allies" deemed to need such info about American citizens. This data can be made accessible to pocket-computers, laptops ANYWHERE in the world that there is connectivity, and can be instantly saved/cross-compiled into other non-regulated databases and tracking/monitoring systems.

Corporate espionage efforts will likely result in this data falling into the hands of non-official/foreign entities/agents, as they are able to acquire it, allowing them to build up-to-date, secret dossiers that lists everything about an individual of interest -- biometrics (which may include tattos, moles, skin discolorations, DNA), personal medical info, spouse and children names and ages, DMV and driving records, insurance informations, friends names and addresses, credit card purchases, places visited and vendors shopped, employer names and salary amounts, stockbroker infos and accounts, cell phone call records and cell phone numbers, any pertinent cell-phone/On-Star types GPS infos that clues about your coming and goings, to include real-time tracking, etc.

Being in the computer end of things, certainly you know all of this, and have pondered the logical end of the burgeoning surveillance society that is bearing down on us all.

Bottom line that Ender is alluding to -- it has less to do with the licensing of vehicle drivers and more to do with Big Brother™.


intothegoodnight
 

Ender

Inactive
This guy says it better than I could.

The Precursor of National Identification Cards in the U.S.:
Drivers Licenses and Vehicle Registration in Historical Perspective
By Carl Watner
Introduction: Why?

Most of us living in the United States are accustomed to calling this country the most important bastion of the "free" world. If that is so, why is it that we now hear increased demands for national identification cards which would allow our government to number us like slaves and literally keep track of our every movement? Why do our automobiles and pickups have to be registered with our state governments, when our computers, photocopies, television sets, power tools, and other personal property do not? Why does the government require that we pass a state test in order to operate "our" cars? Why do we have government-issued drivers licenses, rather than ones issued by our insurance companies, driver's schools, or private safety institutes? Why is the federal government now calling for standardization of state-issued drivers licenses? What is the history of these government imposed requirements and could all of this be part of a long-term pattern - deliberate or otherwise - that is leading directly to national ID? The purpose of this paper is 1) to shed some light on the history of drivers licenses and state vehicle registration; and 2) to explore the implications of government-issued drivers licenses and vehicle registration. These topics are important to understand because the calls for national identification cards would be far fewer if we did not already embrace state-issued documents certifying our birth, identity, and driving "ability." If we accept the principle that government ought to be involved in birth certificates and driver licensing, then why shouldn't it be involved in issuing national I.D.? By what principle of logic can you endorse the one and oppose the other?

Although we expect the federal and state governments to build and maintain the roads, the development of the automobile was strictly a free market phenomenon, largely spawned by individual entrepreneurs and inventors, such as Ransom Olds, James Packard, and later Henry Ford, whose ideas about mass production revolutionized car manufacturing. These backyard American tinkerers took machined steel, crafted their own internal combustion engines, and mounted them on their old farm wagons and horse-drawn buggies. The results were some of the earliest self-propelled vehicles, which they soon refined and offered for sale. >From the very start of this process, government had no involvement. The steel, the wagons, the motors: all were the private property of those who built automobiles. Hence, there was no inherent necessity or reason that these new automobiles had to become subject to government regulation. In fact, "[d]uring the early years of the motor age, any person could drive an automobile or truck without restrictions ... . One [was] as free to operate a motor vehicle as to drive a span of horses." [1] Private roads could have evolved without government controls, much like in the early petroleum industry, where private parties constructed their own pipelines on private property. But since the roadways had always been owned, operated, and regulated by local or state governments (federal aid did not begin until 1916), few people questioned the state's jurisdiction over the automobile and driver.

Before 1901, state governments had little to do with motoring. Most early legislation affecting the automobile and other wheeled vehicles "was the product of the cities, towns, and villages." [2] For example, in 1898 the city of Chicago had in force a law which required that the owners of "wagons, carriages, coaches, buggies, bicycles, and all other wheeled vehicles propelled by horse power or by the rider" pay an annual license fee. [3] (The law was ultimately declared unconstitutional.) A year later, Chicago passed another ordinance which "required the examination and licensing of all automobile operators" in the city. [4] At the same time, New York City had an ordinance which required that drivers of steam powered cars be licensed engineers. [5] Mitchell, South Dakota, (population 10,000: a city supporting two newspapers and a university) imposed a total ban on the use of motorized vehicles!

From these humble origins, government regulation of vehicle operation and operators has evolved to the point where hundreds of millions of American adults have state drivers licenses; hundreds of millions of their vehicles carry state license tags, registration cards, and state certificates of titles. Short of issuing every adult a federal identification card, the drivers license (and its companion non-operator identification card) is the most widely government-provided and utilized means of identification in the United States. Legally, a drivers license is to be carried whenever one is operating a motor vehicle on a government road, so millions of Americans have been conditioned to use a government-issued card to prove who they are and to show that they have been granted a state privilege to operate a vehicle. It is only a small step to visualize millions of Americans carrying a federally-issued smart card programmed to serve as personal identification, drivers license, bank card, credit card, and medical history dossier. Hence, I believe it is accurate to describe state drivers licenses as the precursor of national ID cards.
Driver Licensing

Although there is no comprehensive history of the establishment of automobile drivers licenses, personal anecdotes, government legislative records, and histories of the automobile offer many details about early licenses. (By a drivers license, I refer to the requirement that motor vehicle drivers have a valid, state-issued piece of paper in order to legally drive; and by driver license examination, I mean the operator has passed a state-administered written and/or oral test about driving rules, a vision test, and a state-administered driving test proving his skills.) One thing is clear from the historical record: While the justification for government licensing of automobile operators was sometimes a safety issue, in a majority of the states, driver competency examinations were not imposed until years after the initial licensing regulations were adopted.

In the early days of motoring, every American learned to drive without any assistance from local, state, or federal government; most learned to drive safely; and most never had any government document to identify themselves or to prove that they had ever passed any government driving test. The states of Massachusetts and Missouri were the first to establish drivers licensing laws in 1903, but Missouri had no driver examination law until 1952. Massachusetts had an examination law for commercial chauffeurs in 1907, and passed its first requirement for an examination of general operators in 1920. The first state to require an examination of driver competency was Rhode Island in 1908 (it also required drivers to have state licenses as early as 1908). South Dakota was both the last state to impose drivers licenses (1954), and the last state to require driver license examinations (1959). [6] Our contemporary belief that drivers licenses were instituted to keep incompetent drivers off the road is a false one. The vast majority of Americans who drove already knew how to drive safely. Why the state governments demanded that they have a state-issued license and pass a government test appears to be more a matter of "control" than of public safety. Why early 20th Century Americans did not resist licensure and did not see where it might lead is another question.

Personal reminiscences of many elderly Americans verify this assertion. For example, one author in VINTAGE JOURNAL wrote that "I remember when the first drivers licenses came out. They cost 50 cents and you didn't have to take a test." [7] Here are a few other comments located on the internet:

In Jefferson County, Kansas "on July 8, 1947, someone from the county seat (Oskaloosa) came to Meriden to issue driver's licenses. Anyone who was 16 years or older and paid the fee was immediately issued a drivers license. No test. The date was easy to remember because I was 16 on that day and did get my drivers license." [8] [Licenses were first required in Kansas in 1931, and driving examinations in 1949.]

During the 1930s in Georgia ... "you didn't have to take a test for driving. You sent for the permit by mail." [9] [There were no drivers licenses in Georgia until 1937, and no driving examination until 1939.]

In Missouri the gas stations sold drivers licenses -- "no test. For 25 cents, they gave you a stub -- you had this until the `real' license came in the mail." [10] [As noted, Missouri was one of the first states to require licenses (1903), but examinations were not required until 1952.]

In Washington state drivers licensing was started in 1921. "Applicant must furnish signatures of two people certifying that the person is a competent driver and has no physical problems that would impair safe driving." [11] [Driving examinations were not initiated until 1937.]

James J. Flink presents a different point of view in his book, AMERICA ADOPTS THE AUTOMOBILE (1970). In his discussion of "Licensing of Operators" (pp. 174-178) he notes that "Automobile interests were well ahead of municipal and state governments by 1902 in recognizing that the compulsory examination of all automobile operators would be desirable. ... Officials of both the American Automobile Association and the Automobile Club of America publicly advocated ... that the states should certify the basic competence of all automobile operators by requiring them to pass an examination before being allowed on the road." [12] It is clear, however, that widespread public sentiment did not exist to support these proposals. It was years before all the state governments passed such laws. In summarizing, Flink concludes that

Despite the motorist's own desire to have their competence examined [an assumption which I would challenge] and certified, state governments still remained reluctant to take adequate action at the end of the first decade of the twentieth century. As of 1909, only twelve states and the District of Columbia required all automobile drivers to obtain licenses. Except for Missouri, these were all eastern states - Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and West Virginia. In seven other states, only professional chauffeurs had to obtain operator's licenses - ... . The application forms for operator's licenses in these nineteen states as a rule asked for little more information than the applicant's name, address, age, and the type of automobile he claimed to be competent to drive. This might have to be notarized, but in the vast majority of these states a license to drive an automobile could still be obtained by mail. In the twelve states that all operators had to be licensed, a combined total of 89,495 licenses were issued between January 1 and October 4, 1909, but only twelve applicants were rejected for incompetency or other reasons during this period - two in Rhode Island and ten in Vermont. [13]

It is simply impossible to determine how well the general population complied with these laws. Flink offers a telling statistic, however: observing that a roadcheck in Boston, Massachusetts in 1904 revealed only 126 of the 234 motorists stopped were in compliance with Massachusetts state registration and licensing requirements. [14]
Vehicle Registration

"In the realm of government jurisdiction over traffic safety, matters at first fell to revenue collection agencies on the one hand and to law enforcement agencies on the other. Vehicles were initially licensed solely for the purpose of collecting revenue, and not for many years did the notion appear of vehicle inspection for safety purposes." [15] Although the history of vehicle registration is nearly as sketchy and incomplete as the history of drivers licensing, some limited evidence is available to back up this statement. In New York, the first state to require vehicle registration (in 1901), the law required a motorist to display a state issued number or his initials on his automobile. [16] The system in widespread use today, which encompasses a state-issued certificate of title, an annual or biennial registration fee, and state-issued license plate, was unknown in numerous states, as late as 1967. [17] When registration was imposed, in most cases it was perennial, signifying that it only had to be completed once and that it lasted as long as the owner of the vehicle owned it or lived in the county in which it was registered. By 1905, 26 states had instituted vehicle registration, but only three of the twenty-six had annual registration requirements. By 1915, every state in the union had some sort of registration law, but it was not until 1921 that annual registration was required in all states.

In FILL'ER UP!: The Story of Fifty Years of Motoring (1952), Bellamy Partridge offers the following description of the evolution of vehicle registration in New York state:

Members of the [New York] state legislature, having officially discovered the motor vehicle, were not long in working out a method of imposing a tax on it by requiring registration. Motorists did not particularly object to [having their vehicles] registered. It gave them a feeling of importance, and many of them smiled as they read the printed instructions (which had come with the applications for registration):

"Every owner of an automobile or motor vehicle shall file in the office of the Secretary of State a statement of his name and address and a brief description of the character of such vehicle and shall pay a registration fee of $ 1.00. Every such automobile or motor vehicle shall have the separate initials of the owner's name placed on the back thereof in a conspicuous place. The letters of such initials shall be at least three inches in height."

Registration in New York state for the year 1901 was 954 motor vehicles, ... . The following year saw an increase of 128. However, the initials proved to be an unsatisfactory form of identification, since there were numerous duplications and the printed letters were not always easy to read. The suggestion was made that the motor vehicles should be named as in registration of vessels so that duplication might be avoided. But this method failed of acceptance and the state began registering the vehicles according to number. For each car registered, the state issued a numbered metal disc. [18] The disc could be carried in the pocket of the motorist, but he was required at his own expense to display the figures in Arabic numerals on the back of the vehicle where they would be plain and visible.

This brought out some fancy numerals of every color of the rainbow, and quite a few numbers from people who had not bothered to get a disc. Artistically inclined motorists painted their numbers on the body of the car, surrounded by landscapes, sunsets, or other ornamental designs. There were complaints about this, and the following year the state began to furnish number plates and raised the registration fee to $ 2. [19]

Vehicle registration appears to have originated for two primary reasons. The first is alluded to in the opening lines of the above quote. Registration and license fees were viewed as "a major source of revenue for highway purposes. Until 1929, these sources provided the major share of revenue derived from highway users." [20] The second reason was the need to be able to identify vehicles, both for purposes of taxation as well as for identifying those that were operated recklessly or unsafely. Flink derides the opposition to Detroit's vehicle registration law of 1904: "They claimed that the $ 1 fee [for registration] constituted double taxation of personal property and that the ordinance was unjust `class legislation' because owners of horse-drawn vehicles were neither forced to carry identification tags nor deprived of the right to allow children under sixteen years of age to drive their vehicles." [21] Flink then adds:

Undoubtedly, the most important reasons for motorists' objections to numbering ordinances remained covert. Motorists generally feared that the facilitation of identification of their vehicles would increase chances of arrest, fine, imprisonment, and the payment of damage claims. Also, registration helped tax assessors identify and locate automobile owners who were evading payment of personal property taxes on their cars. To cite but one example, it was estimated that in Denver one-third of the automobiles in the city had gone untaxed prior to the adoption of a registration ordinance. Since such motives could not be expressed legitimately, motorists were forced to cloak their cases in the respectable mantle of the constitution... . Probably the last such effort worth noting was a halfhearted attempt, undertaken after a year's hesitation, by the National Association of Automobile Manufacturers to test the constitutionality of state motor vehicle registration laws in 1905. By then, however, most motorists had become convinced that "the continual wrangling with authorities was a much greater annoyance than carrying numbers." [22]

The earliest registration laws were imposed by municipalities or counties, rather than by the states, and this proliferation actually led to the demand for federal registration of vehicles as early as 1905. Motorists in 1906 found the situation in Missouri deplorable. In order to drive legally in every county in that state, a motorist had to pay $ 295.50 in registration fees. The law was ultimately changed so that after June 14, 1907, only a single state-wide registration of $ 5 was required. Such registration expired "when either the vehicle was sold or [when] the owner's county of residence changed." [23] Flink points out that national registration would have been valid in all states and would have eliminated the confusion caused by "dinky legislatures, county boards, or town trustees and supervisors." [24] Under the guise of "regulating interstate commerce," both the American Automobile Association and the National Automobile Chamber of Commerce "backed a bill in the 60th Congress [1907] that would have required Federal registration for all vehicles." [25] The bill died in committee "because legislators doubted the necessity for and the constitutionality of such an extension of power of the federal government," and by 1910 the movement was diffused by "the general adoption of interstate reciprocity provisions and a trend toward increased uniformity in the motor vehicle laws of the various states." [26]

Although there appear to have been no legal challenges to the constitutionality of requiring drivers licenses, there were a number of test cases in several states which challenged the legitimacy of the registration laws. Invariably these laws were upheld on the basis that they were a proper exercise of the police power of the state to provide for the health, safety, and comfort of the citizenry. [27] The earliest registration laws were justified by state authorities, as well as vehicle owners, by referring to "the need of identifying a vehicle with its owner as a protection against theft." [28] In order to provide this service, the states created motor vehicle administrations and state highway commissions, and these bureaucracies required funds in order to function. It was invariably held by the courts that fees collected for the registration of vehicles and for the maintenance of the highways were legitimate. In a discussion of "The Constitutionality of Motor Vehicle License Fees and the Gas Tax," published in 1924, it was noted "that the State had, without any doubt, the right to regulate the use of its highways and that in doing so [they] could compel the registration and numbering of automobiles; [and] that [they] could impose fees which would compensate the State for the expenses and costs which such legislation entailed, but that such fees had to be reasonable and fair...". [29] An earlier case in New Jersey, ultimately sustained by the U.S. Supreme Court, held that "imposition of license fees for revenue purposes was clearly within the sovereign power of the State." [30] As a test case in Detroit put it, vehicle registration requirements and fees were "a justifiable exercise of the police power in the interest of the safety of the travelling public," [31] and this new form of taxation was accepted by the American populace so long as they believed it would be applied to "securing better roads." [32]
Better Roads: Public or Private?

The extended use of the automobile increased the agitation for good roads during the first decades of the 20th Century. During those years, real and personal property taxes and other general revenues supplemented by State and local bond issues were the main source of road construction, improvement, and maintenance. At that time there were no interstates, or any well-traveled routes across the country. The first person to wage a national campaign for a transcontinental highway was Carl G. Fisher, the man who founded the Prest-O-Lite Company and inaugurated the Indianapolis 500 race in 1911. In September 1912, he publicly laid out plans for "a road across the United States," which he dubbed the Coast-to-Coast Rock Highway. He calculated that the road could be graveled for about $ 10 million. "This money would be used to buy only basic road-building materials; the labor and machinery, he said, would be provided by the counties, towns and cities, along ... the route," which eventually became known as the Lincoln Highway. [33]

"To fund this grand project, Fisher proposed outright donations of cash from the manufacturers of automobiles and auto accessories." He encouraged pledges of 1% of gross revenues (prorated at 1/3 of 1% for 3 years, or 1/5% of 1% for 5 years), and asked automobile owners, as well as members of the general public, to subscribe to an annual $ 5 membership. Frank A. Seiberling of the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company immediately pledged $ 300,000. Portland cement companies all along the route made donations in kind, totaling many thousands of barrels of cement. [34] Other leading manufacturers waited to hear what Henry Ford thought of the project. If Henry Ford, with some 118,000 Model T's on the road by 1912, offered his support, so would they; but as it turned out Ford did not believe in using his money to build the Coast-to-Coast Rock Highway. Writing on behalf of Henry Ford, James Couzens, secretary and treasurer of Ford Motor Co., informed Fisher:

Frankly the writer is not very favorably disposed to the plan, because as long as private interests are willing to build good roads for the general public, the general public will not be very much interested in building good roads for itself. I believe in spending money to educate the public to the necessity of building good roads, and let everybody contribute their share in proper taxes. [35]

Nor would Ford change his mind: "The highways of America should be built at taxpayers' expense." [36]

Although Ford's refusal to support the private efforts of the Lincoln Highway Association stymied its attempts to build a transcontinental highway, Fisher, with the assistance of Henry B. Joy, president of Packard Motor Company, pressed on to provide marking for the entire route and to build at least one mile of experimental concrete highway in each of the states the route crossed. The test roadways were actually built in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, and Nebraska. The efforts of the Association, though only partially successful, gave some credence to Rose Wilder Lane's statement in her 1943 book, Discovery of Freedom:

... American government should have never interfered with highways. Americans created a free, mutual association, the American Automobile Association, which was dealing with all the new questions arising from the invention of automobiles. Private enterprise originated and built the first trans-Continental highway [this statement is not true if it refers to the Lincoln Highway]; free manufacturers and car-owners would have covered this country with highways, as free Americans covered it with wagon-roads. Americans wanted cars and highways; no police force was needed to take their money from them and spend it for highways. And it is injustice to the Americans who do not own cars, to compel them to pay for highways. [37]

If American roadways had been private property, another question relating to the propriety of driver licensing would have been more easily resolved. Under common law, driving a team of horses, oxen, or mules was a matter of right. Such activities were clearly not a privilege granted to the individual by the state.

In one of the earliest decisions relating to registration and licensing, the Supreme Court of Illinois stated that the City of Chicago might regulate commercial activities, such as those engaged in by draymen, but "no reason exists why [licensing] should apply to the owners of private vehicles used for their own individual use exclusively, in their own business, or for their own pleasure, as a means of locomotion."

Anything which cannot be enjoyed without legal authority would be a mere privilege, which is generally evidenced by a license. The use of the public streets of a city is not a privilege but a right. ... A license, therefore, implying a privilege, cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is a right, free and open to all, as is the right of the citizen to ride and drive over the streets of the city without charge, and without toll, provided he does so in a reasonable manner. [38]

Over one hundred years have passed since this decision, and now the general legal consensus is that driving is a privilege, not a right. How we reached that point remains to be explained, but the actions of the American Bar Association's National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws should not be overlooked. Organized in 1889, as part of an effort to standardize state laws, the Commissioners developed a Uniform Motor Vehicle Operation and Chauffeur's License Act in 1926. [39] This was at a time when driving was still recognized as a common law right in at least the 8 states which issued no licenses (either operator or chauffeur). "Thus the ABA, under its self-appointed mandate to produce uniformity [of laws] among the states, labored to license every driver in America." [40]

In 1935, a debate in the Texas legislature centered on the issue of whether or not Texans had a "God-given unalienable RIGHT TO DRIVE." The Texas Senate had approved the American Bar Association's Licensure Act, which viewed driving as a privilege, rather than a right. "The Texas House knew all to [sic] well that Texans had been driving cars and trucks for ... years on the roads of Texas without approval from anyone." [41] Thus the Texas' House version of the law read as follows:

Every person in this State desiring to operate an automobile under the provisions of this law shall upon application and identification be issued an operator's license to drive by the county clerk of the county in which the motor vehicle is registered. But every person in this State over the age of fourteen (14) years and who is subject to none of the disqualifications herein- after mentioned, shall have the right to drive and/or operate a motor vehicle, as that term is now defined by law, upon the public highways and roads of this State. [42]

Although the "right to drive" language was finally incorporated in Section 17 of the Texas law of 1935, it was removed by the legislature in 1937. Nevertheless, it is apparent that some Texans recognized the unalienable right to drive was being negated by the legislation and the American Bar Association's Committee on Uniformity.
Conclusion

The end result of the ABA's efforts of "creating a country-wide trend toward uniformity" and standardization may result in a multi-use federal or state-issued drivers license and/or identification card. [43] If a federally-issued smart card were used, it could be structured in such a way that "the revocation of driving privileges would allow you to keep the card and use it to function for other purposes without actually having the issuing authority repossess the card or require you to turn it back into them." [44] A simple change in programming at the central data bureau would indicate to anyone checking the card that your driving privileges were temporarily suspended or denied, but you could use the card to draw money out of your bank account, to vote, or to identify yourself at the hospital.

Although we do not have a national identification card (yet), the drivers license of today is clearly an indication of what might occur. "Embossed with a photograph, current address, a validated signature, and (often) a social security number, the license is routinely requested by merchants when asked to accept a check, by vendors of alcohol to validate a young person's age, by voter registrars to enfranchise individuals, or by numerous others who need some reliable form of personal identification. ... A drivers license is the only form of identification held by a majority of Americans and controlled and distributed by the State. In 1989, 79 percent of females and 91 percent of males (aged 16 and older) in America held drivers licenses. In all, 165 million Americans h[e]ld licenses as of 1989" and the percentages and numbers are probably higher today. [45] Such multitudinous contact with the State is not always ennobling. As the Secretary's Advisory Committee on Traffic Safety noted in February 1968:

... the average adult American citizen [has] more direct dealings with government through licensing and regulation of the automobile than through any other single public activity. Not all of these dealings [are] especially uplifting, and some [have] acquired implications all the more ominous because they so quickly came to be regarded as natural. Thus in the course of the regulation of highway traffic, the incidence of arrest [for violation of motor vehicle laws] by armed police in the United States has undoubtedly reached the highest point for any civilization, democratic or totalitarian, in recorded history. While ours is assuredly a free society, it has nonetheless become commonplace for an American citizen to be arrested by an armed officer of the law. Indeed, so frequent have such arrests become - in 1965 the California Highway Patrol alone made 1 million - that experience has ceased to be regarded for what it is at law and has come to be looked on as a rather routine accompaniment of modern life. One may well question whether the instincts of a free people will not one day be impaired by the habit of being arrested without protest; certainly the pervasiveness of automobile-related regulatory activity is a matter about which we must all agree. [46]

Drivers licensing and vehicle regulation are precursors to national ID. Both are trademarks of totalitarianism. Read the above quote again if you do not believe me!

Is there not something Orwellian about the way the requirements for compulsory birth certificates and compulsory drivers licenses complement each other? Isn't this development a perfect example of how government manages to spin a web of power to ensnare unaware citizens? No one, obviously, planned the invention and development of the motorized vehicle, but notice how government has used the automobile to control the citizenry and make promote submission. First, the government "owns" the roads which it forces everyone to pay for regardless of how much they use them, or whether or not they own and drive a vehicle. Government ownership of the roads is socialism, despite the fact that most people refuse to recognize it as such. Second, the government began requiring that children have birth certificates. That demand preceded, and was, obviously, unrelated to the issuance of drivers licenses. Then the government required drivers licenses, but there was no need to show proof of who you were. Then it became a precondition to the issuance of a drivers license that one must present a government-issued birth certificate. The loss and denial of the common law right to drive (without any sort of government license) upon the state's roads only accelerated this trend toward total control. [47]

Pick any piece of government legislation that has been implemented in the last fifty years. Consider anti-bank secrecy and money laundering legislation: what started out as a requirement that banks keep microfilmed copies of customers' checks has turned into a call for electronic banking, where the use of cash in amounts larger than $ 3000 must be reported by both the banks and the parties receiving the cash. Look at other examples: health care; firearms regulations; the drug war; asset forfeiture programs. Practically every new piece of legislation leads to further and further government intervention. Haven't the uses for Social Security numbers expanded far beyond the wildest expectations of everyone? Won't the same hold true for national ID?

When the government has the technical ability to identify and track every person in its jurisdiction, and make an outlaw and criminal of any person who refuses to carry government "papers," then we have truly reached the situation described in Orwell's 1984. Additionally, consider the mission creep built into these ID proposals. Not only will a national ID card keep track of who we are, they have the potential to show where we have been, what health care we have received, what we have spent our money on, where we have spent it, whether or not we have voted, and whether or not we have paid our taxes.

What is it about the operation of government that ordinarily makes it expand and expand? "How is it that everything the government does leads to greater control for it, less freedom for us?" [48] Theodore Lowi, a political scientist at Cornell University in the late 1970s and early 1980s, did a good job of explaining the reason why we always seem to get more government, rather than less. In his book, Incomplete Conquest: Governing America, he wrote:

Every action and every agency of contemporary government must contribute to the fulfillment of its fundamental purpose, which is to maintain conquest. Conquest manifests itself in various forms of control, but in all those forms it is the common factor tying together into one system the behavior of the courts and cops, sanitation workers and senators, bureaucrats and technocrats, generals and attorney generals, pressure groups and presidents. [49]

Although Lowi did not include them, we might add government health departments (that issue birth certificates), government motor vehicle administrations (that issue driver licenses), the Immigration and Naturalization Service (which is responsible for keeping track of aliens residing in the US), and the Office of Homeland Defense (which is responsible for waging the War on Terrorism). If and when it comes, a national ID program will be part and parcel of Lowi's description of the "fundamental purpose" of government "which is to maintain conquest." [50]
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
ITGN, I agree that today's DL's are "scope creep" and and invasion of privacy by the gooberment. Just as using your SSN for ID has become standard (though illegal) practice by both governmental agencies and private businesses. I have no disagreement on whether or not these "Real ID" licenses are an infringement; they are.
 
Dennis is correct about license issue. However, does the State have the power to 'remove' a license when compitancy is not at issue? Can the State make a 'profit' issuing licenses? May I hook a horse to a buggy and use roads? Safety aside!
Just askin'
 

JeanCat

Veteran Member
Sully I ran into something similar about a year ago. I use my middle name, maiden initial, last name. All ID, credit cards, and professionally everything like this. Drivers license is/was first name, maiden initial, last name. Went to board a plane in another state and was almost refused boarding because my name wasn't "right" on my ticket. Thank goodness I had another ID with the same names as the ticket. When I got my license renewed last year (same state as you by the way) the put first name, middle name, last name on it. So far I haven't had the same problem arise when boarding but it is a real pain when making travel arrangements.
 

Amaryllis

Inactive
I've never had to show a social security card or birth certificate to get my drivers license renewed, but my 15 y/o had to last month to get his learner's permit. Nevermind the fact that social security has nothing to do with driving, and why have to prove that you were born at 15 y/o?? A little late for that.

Also, a couple of months ago, H got a letter from TXDPS, stating that he needed to contact them because his social security information didn't match up with what was in their system. I reminded H that social security was for RETIREMENT not DRIVING.
 

Monty

Veteran Member
Well this thread gave me an "Aw Crap" moment earlier today. I had been so sick and busy in Dec that I had forgotten that my DL expired on my birthday last month even though they sent me the renewal app listing what I needed to provided to renew it. So I headed over to the friendly DMV this afternoon with my two kids in tow. After less then a 5 min wait and a quick eye exam I was providing at the window my old license (proof of identity), copy of my CCW card (proof of residency), and a $23 check ($13 for renewal + $5 for motorcycle + $5 for being an idiot and letting it expire). Five mins later I was at another window, verbally declining the fingerprint (for my safety) and getting my picture taken. Couple more minute wait and we were out the door. Almost all my experiences at the DMV have been about that trouble free. I'll tell you what, in WV, they have this DMV thing figured out, couldn't ask for any better service. Thanks to the OP for reminding me to get it done today, good for another 5 years!

Only bad news, I took the vision test with my glasses on so now for the first time I have a Corrective Lenses restriction on my license. Honestly though I'm not sure I could have passed it without them, probably should have tried though. Oh well.

Monty
 

Kronos

Inactive
In re: "Washington"

Oh yes they do.
At least they had to see my SS card.

I am guessing that poster had intended to reference DC, that bastion of lawlessness.

Real ID: no more mail renewals!
http://www.realnightmare.org/

Got ORIGINAL SS card and RAISED STAMP Birth Cert?
Yer gonna need BOTH when comes time to renew.

...and NO!!! They will NOT accept a passport.

They's building all new databases from scratch, apparently.

:(
 

don24mac

Veteran Member
We just go to AAA. You hand them money, they take a picture, and hand you back a new State DL. Still the same as it's been for years, here. Takes too long to actually go to the DMV to do it, so AAA is better.
 

Sassafras

Deceased
I've never had to show a social security card or birth certificate to get my drivers license renewed, but my 15 y/o had to last month to get his learner's permit. Nevermind the fact that social security has nothing to do with driving, and why have to prove that you were born at 15 y/o?? A little late for that.

Also, a couple of months ago, H got a letter from TXDPS, stating that he needed to contact them because his social security information didn't match up with what was in their system. I reminded H that social security was for RETIREMENT not DRIVING.

I agree. Social Security isn't suppose to be used for ID purposes either. It states so on my Social Security card, but how many times have you had to produce your card for identification purposes. I've had to many times.

I don't know if they still do, but when we lived in Missouri the DMV used your Social Security number as your driver's license number. When I came back to Illinois and went to trade my license in, the gal behind the counter at the local office argued with me that my MO number was not my SS number. I had to show my SS card to prove her wrong.
 

Sully

Inactive
Sully I ran into something similar about a year ago. I use my middle name, maiden initial, last name. All ID, credit cards, and professionally everything like this. Drivers license is/was first name, maiden initial, last name. Went to board a plane in another state and was almost refused boarding because my name wasn't "right" on my ticket. Thank goodness I had another ID with the same names as the ticket. When I got my license renewed last year (same state as you by the way) the put first name, middle name, last name on it. So far I haven't had the same problem arise when boarding but it is a real pain when making travel arrangements.

Now my new DL has my first, middle and last name on it too. Before on every DL I renewes my SS# was also my DL # but now I have a new DL# that I have to memorize...no more SS# on DL anymore.

Sully
 

Lone Wolf

Lives on TB
I have had a DL for 54 years.

I never had to prove to anyone who I was via birth certificate.

I am in those end years for my generation. You younger folks will have to put up with this horse pucky a lot longer and in growing detail then I will.

Remember this, how it was and how it is today, and how it will be in the future.

BOHICA, courtesy of your US government

lw:sheep:
 
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