WAR More oddities in the U.S. "debate" over Israel/Gaza

Desperado

Membership Revoked
More oddities in the U.S. "debate" over Israel/Gaza

This Rasmussen Reports poll -- the first to survey American public opinion specifically regarding the Israeli attack on Gaza -- strongly bolsters the severe disconnect I documented the other day between (a) American public opinion on U.S. policy towards Israel and (b) the consensus views expressed by America's political leadership. Not only does Rasmussen find that Americans generally "are closely divided over whether the Jewish state should be taking military action against militants in the Gaza Strip" (44-41%, with 15% undecided), but Democratic voters overwhelmingly oppose the Israeli offensive -- by a 24-point margin (31-55%). By stark constrast, Republicans, as one would expect (in light of their history of supporting virtually any proposed attack on Arabs and Muslims), overwhelmingly support the Israeli bombing campaign (62-27%).

It's not at all surprising, then, that Republican leaders -- from Dick Cheney and John Bolton to virtually all appendages of the right-wing noise machine, from talk radio and Fox News to right-wing blogs and neoconservative journals -- are unquestioning supporters of the Israeli attack. After all, they're expressing the core ideology of the overwhelming majority of their voters and audience.

Much more notable is the fact that Democratic Party leaders -- including Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi -- are just as lockstep in their blind, uncritical support for the Israeli attack, in their absolute refusal to utter a word of criticism of, or even reservations about, Israeli actions. While some Democratic politicians who are marginalized by the party's leadership are willing to express the views which Democratic voters overwhelmingly embrace, the suffocating, fully bipartisan orthodoxy which typically predominates in America when it comes to Israel -- thou shalt not speak ill of Israel, thou shalt support all actions it takes -- is in full force with this latest conflict.

Is there any other significant issue in American political life, besides Israel, where (a) citizens split almost evenly in their views, yet (b) the leaders of both parties adopt identical lockstep positions which leave half of the citizenry with no real voice? More notably still, is there any other position, besides Israel, where (a) a party's voters overwhelmingly embrace one position (Israel should not have attacked Gaza) but (b) that party's leadership unanimously embraces the exact opposite position (Israel was absolutely right to attack Gaza and the U.S. must support Israel unequivocally)? Does that happen with any other issue?

Equally noteworthy is that the factional breakdown regarding Israel-Gaza mirrors quite closely the factional alliances that arose with regard to the Iraq War. Just as was true with Iraq, one finds vigorous pro-war sentiment among the Dick Cheney/National Review/neoconservative/hard-core-GOP crowd, joined (as was true for Iraq) by some American liberals who typically oppose that faction yet eagerly join with them when it comes to Israel. Meanwhile, most of the rest of the world -- Europe, South America, Asia, the Middle East, the U.N. leadership -- opposes and condemns the attack, all to no avail. The parties with the superior military might (the U.S. and Israel) dismiss world opinion as essentially irrelevant. Even the pro-war rhetorical tactics are the same (just as those who opposed the Iraq War were demonized as being "pro-Saddam," those who oppose the Israeli attack on Gaza are now "pro-Hamas").

Substantively, there are certainly meaningful differences between the U.S. attack on Iraq and the Israeli attack on Gaza (most notably the fact that Hamas really does shoot rockets into Israel and has killed Israeli civilians and Israel really is blockading and occupying Palestinian land, whereas Iraq did not attack and could not attack the U.S. as the U.S. was sanctioning them and controlling their airspace). But the underlying logic of both wars are far more similar than different: military attacks, invasions and occupations will end rather than exacerbate terrorism; the Muslim world only understands brute force; the root causes of the disputes are irrelevant; diplomacy and the U.N. are largely worthless. It's therefore entirely unsurprising that the sides split along the same general lines. What's actually somewhat remarkable is that there is even more lockstep consensus among America's political leadership supporting the Israeli attack on Gaza than there was supporting the U.S.'s own attack on Iraq (at least a few Democratic Congressional leaders opposed the war on Iraq, unlike for Israel's bombing of Gaza, where they virtually all unequivocally support it).

* * * * *

Ultimately, what is most notable about the "debate" in the U.S. over Israel-Gaza is that virtually all of it occurs from the perspective of Israeli interests but almost none of it is conducted from the perspective of American interests. There is endless debate over whether Israel's security is enhanced or undermined by the attack on Gaza and whether the 40-year-old Israeli occupation, expanding West Bank settlements and recent devastating blockade or Hamas militancy and attacks on Israeli civilians bear more of the blame. American opinion-making elites march forward to opine on the historical rights and wrongs of the endless Israeli-Palestinian territorial conflict with such fervor and fixation that it's often easy to forget that the U.S. is not actually a direct party to this dispute.

Though the ins-and-outs of Israeli grievances and strategic considerations are endlessly examined, there is virtually no debate over whether the U.S. should continue to play such an active, one-sided role in this dispute. It's the American taxpayer, with their incredibly consequential yet never-debated multi-billion-dollar aid packages to Israel, who are vital in funding this costly Israeli assault on Gaza. Just as was true for Israel's bombing of Lebanon, it's American bombs that -- with the whole world watching -- are blowing up children and mosques, along with Hamas militants, in Gaza. And it's the American veto power that, time and again, blocks any U.N. action to stop these wars.

For those reasons, the pervasive opposition and anger around the world from the Israeli assault on Gaza is not only directed to Israel but -- quite rationally and understandably -- to America as well. Virtually the entire world, other than large segments of the American public, see Israeli actions as American actions. The attack on Gaza thus harms not only Israel's reputation and credibility, but America's reputation and credibility as well.

And for what? Even for those Americans who, for whatever their reasons, want endlessly to fixate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, who care deeply and passionately about whether the Israelis or the Palestinians control this or that West Bank hill or village and want to spend the rest of their days arguing about who did what to whom in 1948 and 1967, what possible interests do Americans generally have in any of that, sufficient to involve ourselves so directly and vigorously on one side, and thereby subject ourselves to the significant costs -- financial, reputational, diplomatic and security -- from doing so?

It's one thing to argue that Israel is being both wise and just by bombing the densely populated Gaza Strip. It's another thing entirely to argue that the U.S. should use all of its resources to support Israel as it does so. Those are two entirely separate questions. Arguments insisting that the Gaza attack is good and right for Israel don't mean that they are good and right for the U.S. Yet unstinting, unquestioning American support for whatever Israel does is just tacitly assumed in most of these discussions. The core assumption is that if it can be established that this is the right thing for Israel to do, then it must be the right thing for the U.S. to support it. The notion that the two countries may have separate interests -- that this may be good for Israel to do but not for the U.S. to support -- is the one issue that, above all else, may never be examined.

The "change" that many anticipate (or, more accurately, hope) that Obama will bring about is often invoked as a substance-free mantra, a feel-good political slogan. But to the extent it means anything specific, at the very least it has to entail that there will be a substantial shift in how America is perceived in the world, the role that we in fact play, the civil-liberties-erosions and militarized culture that inevitably arise from endlessly involving ourselves in numerous, hate-fueled military conflicts around the world. Our blind support for Israel, our eagerness to make all of its disputes our own disputes, our refusal to acknowledge any divergence of interests between us and that other country, our active impeding rather than facilitating of diplomatic resolutions between it and its neighbors are major impediments to any meaningful progress in those areas.



UPDATE: One related point: I have little appreciation for those who believe, one way or the other, that they can reliably predict what Obama is going to do -- either on this issue or others. That requires a clairvoyance which I believe people lack.

Some argue that Obama has filled key positions with politicians who have a history of virtually absolute support for Israeli actions -- Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Rahm Emanuel -- because Obama intends to continue, more or less, the Bush policy of blind support for Israel. Others argue the opposite: that those appointments are necessary to vest the Obama administration with the credibility to take a more active role in pushing the Israelis to a negotiated settlement with the Palestinians, and that in particular, Clinton would not have left her Senate seat unless she believed she could finish Bill Clinton's work and obtain for herself the legacy-building accomplishment of forging an agreement between the Israelis and Palestinians (this morning's NYT hints at that scenario).

I personally find the latter theory marginally more persuasive, but there is simply no way to know until Obama is inaugurated. Whatever else is true, the more domestic political pressure is exerted demanding that the U.S. play a more even-handed and constructive role in facilitating a diplomatic resolution, the more likely it is that this will happen.



UPDATE II: Donna Edwards, the newly elected, netroots-supported Democratic Congresswoman from Maryland, who removed the standard establishment Democratic incumbent Al Wynn from office this year, has the following to say about Israel/Gaza:

I am deeply disturbed by this week's escalation of hostilities in the Gaza Strip, as I have been by the ongoing rocket fire into southern Israel. To support Israel and to ease the humanitarian crisis facing the people of Gaza, the United States must work actively for an immediate ceasefire that ends the violence, stops the rockets, and removes the blockade of Gaza.

That's much further than most national Democrats have been willing to go. And it illustrates that primary challenges can -- slowly but meaningfully -- change the face of the Democratic Party.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/02/israel/
 

thinkingplus

Inactive
In regards to the ' humantarian aid' for Gaza....where is the relief from their fellows in Egypt,Jordan......they are bound by other states besides Israel, other ports of entry, yes? So, IMO to say that only Israel denies them is false.
 

MtnGal

Has No Life - Lives on TB
They have had relief. Read the amounts given even during the so called embargo. Hamas has taken the supplies to build their bunkers and tunnels, they have taken food and medicine belonging to the people. Don't forget Hamas was voted in just like obama was.

The people believed life under Hamas would be better but where did it get them?

I'm not saying Israel should/should not go in, what choice do they have? They tried peace with Hamas and keep getting kicked for it. I'd love to see a diplomatic resolution. It won't happen until all the ME stand up against the radicals.

It is the same here in the US. obama was voted in so he could take what I've worked for to give it to the slobs setting in the slums doing nothing. We've allowed the Mexicans and Muslims come in and vote against our Constitution.

Only difference is Israel is trying to save their country.

As far as what obama will do, it's a wait and see. One thing for sure, he won't be for the hard working American. He has promised to take from us and give to the non working class.
 

Hfcomms

EN66iq
There certainly is no seed change among the leadership of Hamas and the Palestinian leadership. They use the cease fires as an opportunity to rebuild smuggling tunnels and time to rearm and position more rockets. The innocents always suffer. I hate war and I hate bloodshed of any kind and I'm no fan of some of the things Israel has done in the past. Yet would we allow Mexico to shell our boarder towns day in and day out and sit back and do nothing? If Canada was lobbing rockets accross the northern boarder every day would we just shrug our shoulders? I think the average Israeli citizen's are pragmatic and thoughtful. If Hamas would quit shelling and funding terrorism then they could live in peace with Israel and in turn Israel would be able to help them. It's not in Israels interests for an unstable situation on any of it's borders.
 

johnswahoo

Veteran Member
The political ties are going to be closely associated with how much support the Israel gave during elections and afterward.
Israel will pump money into the election of candidates and standing members or the US Senate and House.
So of coarse they are going to get support. Once your in office then you deal with the lobbiest to provide you with assistance on making decisions and what you will say towards Israel when dealing with the media.
One of the biggest things that is hurting Israel in the United States right now is that we as citizens aren't getting 100% of our media from Newspapers or mainstream media. When your able to see the other worlds perspective you opinions starts to change and then you start saying to yourself, what the hell....
Its not surprising that the numbers against Israel are higher. I always say this, somewhere in between is the real truth.
 

TECH32

Inactive
Perhaps the American public is equally divided because they haven't been shown both sides of the story.

Had the media shown, day after day, hour after hour, of Hamas rocket and mortar attacks against Israel they way they are covering Israel's RESPONSE, then perhaps more people would be understanding amd supportive of Israels situation.
 

Walker10

Veteran Member
http://www.counterpunch.com/avnery01022009.html

January 2 - 4, 2009
How Israel is Multiplying Hamas by a Thousand
Molten Lead in Gaza

By URI AVNERY

EJUST AFTER MIDNIGHT, Aljazeera’s Arabic channel was reporting on events in Gaza. Suddenly the camera was pointing upwards towards the dark sky. The screen was pitch black. Nothing could be seen, but there was a sound to be heard: the noise of airplanes, a frightening, a terrifying droning.

It was impossible not to think about the tens of thousands of Gazan children who were hearing that sound at that moment, cringing with fright, paralyzed by fear, waiting for the bombs to fall.

* * *

“ISRAEL MUST defend itself against the rockets that are terrorizing our Southern towns,” the Israeli spokesmen explained. “Palestinians must respond to the killing of their fighters inside the Gaza Strip,” the Hamas spokesmen declared.

As a matter of fact, the cease-fire did not collapse, because there was no real cease-fire to start with. The main requirement for any cease-fire in the Gaza Strip must be the opening of the border crossings. There can be no life in Gaza without a steady flow of supplies. But the crossings were not opened, except for a few hours now and again. The blockade on land, on sea and in the air against a million and a half human beings is an act of war, as much as any dropping of bombs or launching of rockets. It paralyzes life in the Gaza Strip: eliminating most sources of employment, pushing hundreds of thousands to the brink of starvation, stopping most hospitals from functioning, disrupting the supply of electricity and water.

Those who decided to close the crossings – under whatever pretext – knew that there is no real cease-fire under these conditions.

That is the main thing. Then there came the small provocations which were designed to get Hamas to react. After several months, in which hardly any Qassam rockets were launched, an army unit was sent into the Strip “in order to destroy a tunnel that came close to the border fence”. From a purely military point of view, it would have made more sense to lay an ambush on our side of the fence. But the aim was to find a pretext for the termination of the cease-fire, in a way that made it plausible to put the blame on the Palestinians. And indeed, after several such small actions, in which Hamas fighters were killed, Hamas retaliated with a massive launch of rockets, and – lo and behold – the cease-fire was at an end. Everybody blamed Hamas.

* * *

WHAT WAS THE AIM? Tzipi Livni announced it openly: to liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza. The Qassams served only as a pretext.

Liquidate Hamas rule? That sounds like a chapter out of “The March of Folly”. After all, it is no secret that it was the Israeli government which set up Hamas to start with. When I once asked a former Shin-Bet chief, Yaakov Peri, about it, he answered enigmatically: “We did not create it, but we did not hinder its creation.”

For years, the occupation authorities favored the Islamic movement in the occupied territories. All other political activities were rigorously suppressed, but their activities in the mosques were permitted. The calculation was simple and naive: at the time, the PLO was considered the main enemy, Yasser Arafat was the current Satan. The Islamic movement was preaching against the PLO and Arafat, and was therefore viewed as an ally.

With the outbreak of the first intifada in 1987, the Islamic movement officially renamed itself Hamas (Arabic initials of “Islamic Resistance Movement”) and joined the fight. Even then, the Shin-Bet took no action against them for almost a year, while Fatah members were executed or imprisoned in large numbers. Only after a year, were Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and his colleagues also arrested.

Since then the wheel has turned. Hamas has now become the current Satan, and the PLO is considered by many in Israel almost as a branch of the Zionist organization. The logical conclusion for an Israeli government seeking peace would have been to make wide-ranging concessions to the Fatah leadership: ending of the occupation, signing of a peace treaty, foundation of the State of Palestine, withdrawal to the 1967 borders, a reasonable solution of the refugee problem, release of all Palestinian prisoners. That would have arrested the rise of Hamas for sure.

But logic has little influence on politics. Nothing of this sort happened. On the contrary, after the murder of Arafat, Ariel Sharon declared that Mahmoud Abbas, who took his place, was a “plucked chicken”. Abbas was not allowed the slightest political achievement. The negotiations, under American auspices, became a joke. The most authentic Fatah leader, Marwan Barghouti, was sent to prison for life. Instead of a massive prisoner release, there were petty and insulting “gestures”.

Abbas was systematically humiliated, Fatah looked like an empty shell and Hamas won a resounding victory in the Palestinian election – the most democratic election ever held in the Arab world. Israel boycotted the elected government. In the ensuing internal struggle, Hamas assumed direct control over the Gaza Strip.

And now, after all this, the government of Israel decided to “liquidate Hamas rule in Gaza” – with blood, fire and columns of smoke.

* * *

THE OFFICIAL NAME of the war is “Cast Lead”, two words from a children’s song about a Hanukkah toy.

It would be more accurate to call it “the the Election War”.

In the past, too, military action has been taken during election campaigns. Menachem Begin bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor during the 1981 campaign. When Shimon Peres claimed that this was an election gimmick, Begin cried out at his next rally: “Jews, do you believe that I would send our brave boys to their death or, worse, to be taken prisoner by human animals, in order to win an election?” Begin won.

Peres is no Begin. When, during the 1996 election campaign, he ordered the invasion of Lebanon (operation “Grapes of Wrath”), everybody was convinced that he had done it for electoral gain. The war was a failure and Peres lost the elections and Binyamin Netanyahu came to power.

Barak and Tzipi Livni are now resorting to the same old trick. According to the polls, Barak’s predicted election result rose within 48 hours by five Knesset seats. About 80 dead Palestinians for each seat. But it is difficult to walk on a pile of dead bodies. The success may evaporate in a minute if the war comes to be considered by the Israeli public as a failure. For example, if the rockets continue to hit Beersheba, or if the ground attack leads to heavy Israeli casualties.

The timing was chosen meticulously from another angle too. The attack started two days after Christmas, when American and European leaders are on holiday until after New Year. The calculation: even if somebody wanted to try and stop the war, no one would give up his holiday. That ensured several days free from outside pressures.

Another reason for the timing: these are George Bush’s last days in the White House. This blood-soaked moron could be expected to support the war enthusiastically, as indeed he did. Barack Obama has not yet entered office and had a ready made pretext for keeping silent: “there is only one President”. The silence does not bode well for the term of president Obama.

* * *

THE MAIN LINE was: not to repeat the mistakes of Lebanon War II. This was endlessly repeated on all the news programs and talk shows.

This does not change the fact: the Gaza War is an almost exact replica of the second Lebanon war.

The strategic concept is the same: to terrorize the civilian population by unremitting attacks from the air, sowing death and destruction. This poses no danger to the pilots, since the Palestinians have no anti-aircraft weapons at all. The calculation: if the entire life-supporting infrastructure in the Strip is utterly destroyed and total anarchy ensues, the population will rise up and overthrow the Hamas regime. Mahmoud Abbas will then ride back into Gaza on the back of Israeli tanks.

In Lebanon, this calculation did not work out. The bombed population, including the Christians, rallied behind Hizbullah, and Hassan Nasrallah became the hero of the Arab world. Something similar will probably happen this time, too. Generals are experts on using weapons and moving troops, not on mass psychology.

Some time ago I wrote that the Gaza blockade was a scientific experiment designed to find out how much one can starve a population and turn its life into hell before they break. This experiment was conducted with the generous help of Europe and the US. Up to now, it did not succeed. Hamas became stronger and the range of the Qassams became longer. The present war is a continuation of the experiment by other means.

It may be that the army will “have no alternative” but to re-conquer the Gaza Strip because there is no other way to stop the Qassams – except coming to an agreement with Hamas, which is contrary to government policy. When the ground invasion starts, everything will depend on the motivation and capabilities of the Hamas fighters vis-à-vis the Israeli soldiers. Nobody can know what will happen.

* * *

DAY AFTER DAY, night after night, Aljazeera’s Arabic channel broadcasts the atrocious pictures: heaps of mutilated bodies, tearful relatives looking for their dear ones among the dozens of corpses spread out on the ground, a woman pulling her young daughter from under the rubble, doctors without medicines trying to save the lives of the wounded. (The English-language Aljazeera, unlike its Arab-language sister-station, has undergone an amazing about face, broadcasting only a sanitized picture and freely distributing Israeli government propaganda. It would be interesting to know what happened there.)

Millions are seeing these terrible images, picture after picture, day after day. These images are imprinted on their minds forever: horrible Israel, abominable Israel, inhuman Israel. A whole generation of haters. That is a terrible price, which we will be compelled to pay long after the other results of the war itself have been forgotten in Israel.

But there is another thing that is being imprinted on the minds of these millions: the picture of the miserable, corrupt, passive Arab regimes.

As seen by Arabs, one fact stands out above all others: the wall of shame.

For the million and a half Arabs in Gaza, who are suffering so terribly, the only opening to the world that is not dominated by Israel is the border with Egypt. Only from there can food arrive to sustain life and medicaments to save the injured. This border remains closed at the height of the horror. The Egyptian army has blocked the only way for food and medicines to enter, while surgeons operate on the wounded without anesthetics.

Throughout the Arab world, from end to end, there echoed the words of Hassan Nasrallah: The leaders of Egypt are accomplices to the crime, they are collaborating with the “Zionist enemy” in trying to break the Palestinian people. It can be assumed that he did not mean only Mubarak, but also all the other leaders, from the king of Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian President. Seeing the demonstrations throughout the Arab world and listening to the slogans, one gets the impression that their leaders seem to many Arabs pathetic at best, and miserable collaborators at worst.

This will have historic consequences. A whole generation of Arab leaders, a generation imbued with the ideology of secular Arab nationalism, the successors of Gamal Abd-al-Nasser, Hafez al-Assad and Yasser Arafat, may be swept from the stage. In the Arab space, the only viable alternative is the ideology of Islamic fundamentalism.

This war is a writing on the wall: Israel is missing the historic chance of making peace with secular Arab nationalism. Tomorrow, It may be faced with a uniformly fundamentalist Arab world, Hamas multiplied by a thousand.

MY TAXI DRIVER in Tel-Aviv the other day was thinking aloud: Why not call up the sons of the ministers and members of the Knesset, form them into a combat unit and send them off to head the coming ground attack on Gaza?

Uri Avnery is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom. He is a contributor to CounterPunch's book The Politics of Anti-Semitism.
 
From above article:
For the million and a half Arabs in Gaza, who are suffering so terribly, the only opening to the world that is not dominated by Israel is the border with Egypt. Only from there can food arrive to sustain life and medicaments to save the injured. This border remains closed at the height of the horror. The Egyptian army has blocked the only way for food and medicines to enter, while surgeons operate on the wounded without anesthetics.

Throughout the Arab world, from end to end, there echoed the words of Hassan Nasrallah: The leaders of Egypt are accomplices to the crime, they are collaborating with the “Zionist enemy” in trying to break the Palestinian people.

The issue NOT mentioned by this writer is the amount of U.S. taxpayer-supplied funding that is received by BOTH Israel AND Egypt -- somewhere north of $15 billion, IIRC. If the author were to root his arguments within the context of the U.S. funding fact, the rest of his reporting would be more persuasive and authentic, since he would be more accurately describing the ENTIRE Israeli war machine and its methodology.

It is simple in its essence -- were the U.S. to remove the U.S. taxpayer-supplied funding from the equation, this whole affair would be strictly between Israel and its neighbors, conducted on funding terms that Israel would have to afford out of their own pocket.


intothegoodnight
 

TECH32

Inactive
From above article:


The issue NOT mentioned by this writer is the amount of U.S. taxpayer-supplied funding that is received by BOTH Israel AND Egypt -- somewhere north of $15 billion, IIRC. If the author were to root his arguments within the context of the U.S. funding fact, the rest of his reporting would be more persuasive and authentic, since he would be more accurately describing the ENTIRE Israeli war machine and its methodology.

It is simple in its essence -- were the U.S. to remove the U.S. taxpayer-supplied funding from the equation, this whole affair would be strictly between Israel and its neighbors, conducted on funding terms that Israel would have to afford out of their own pocket.


intothegoodnight

You know, not too long ago I pointed out to you here:

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2934256#post2934256

That the US signed an Agreement (otherwise known as a Treaty) with Israel promising them money in return for their turning over land to Egypt. WE asked them to do this and WE promised them money in return.

America benefitted from that arragement (no war with Egypt == lower oil prices) and now we must honor it.

Why do you deliberately ignore this fact?
 

Dredge

Inactive
80% of Americans were against the financial bail but they stole our money anyway

Also from the above article




"Is there any other significant issue in American political life, besides Israel, where (a) citizens split almost evenly in their views, yet (b) the leaders of both parties adopt identical lockstep positions which leave half of the citizenry with no real voice? More notably still, is there any other position, besides Israel, where (a) a party's voters overwhelmingly embrace one position (Israel should not have attacked Gaza) but (b) that party's leadership unanimously embraces the exact opposite position (Israel was absolutely right to attack Gaza and the U.S. must support Israel unequivocally)? Does that happen with any other issue?"
 
TECH32,

I appreciate your pointing out this fact -- I was not aware of this "treaty," and expect that many/most of the U.S. taxpayers are wholly unaware of the overall amounts of their hard-earned tax monies which are GIVEN (by "treaty or otherwise) to Israel and Egypt, nor have they thought through HOW their "gifted" tax dollars are further enabling the ongoing situation with regards to Israel and its neighbors.

I am against any further U.S. taxpayer funding of Israel or Egypt. These countries must learn to develop their own economies, funded by THEIR taxpayers -- Israel in particular -- they have had nearly 60 YEARS of being supported by the U.S. taxpayers, with no apparent plan to change this funding arrangement.


intothegoodnight
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
You know, it's really NONE OF OUR BUSINESS what another sovereign nation does to defend itself. I GUARANTEE that if Mexico was shooting missiles into Laredo, there would be a DEMAND for military intervention from Americans.
 

Donner9x

Thread Killer :-)
...(in light of their [republicans] history of supporting virtually any proposed attack on Arabs and Muslims)...
Nice - silly, cheap shot.. gee I wonder where the author is going with this..hmmmm... <rolls eyes>

It's not at all surprising, then, that Republican leaders -- from Dick Cheney and John Bolton to virtually all appendages of the right-wing noise machine, from talk radio and Fox News to right-wing blogs and neoconservative journals -- are unquestioning supporters of the Israeli attack.
Not to mention those other "right-wing noise machine" members like Democrat Jon Corzine (heard him just this morning on a Sunday interview supporting Israel's need to defend herself), Barack Obama (he's been quoted as having said that no country should have to sit back and accept repeated, ongoing attacks like those perpetrated by Hamas) -- I've heard other democrats defending Israel in the last few days -
Much more notable is the fact that Democratic Party leaders -- including Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi -- are just as lockstep in their blind, uncritical support for the Israeli attack, in their absolute refusal to utter a word of criticism of, or even reservations about, Israeli actions.
I see, when people whom you expect to see things a certain way, don't see things that way, then you have to find a way to rationalize that - guess they're all part of that "right-wing noise machine" -- what a load this piece is turning out to be...

Someone else here said that the American people's polled opinion seems to be affected by what they're seeing reported - and there has to be some truth in that - sit for a while and watch the news reports regarding this war, and you see the absolute bias against Israel - the complete lack of discussion about WHY Israel is doing this, only criticism for Israel and sympathy (much distorted to cleverly skew the death toll) - reporting only that there are "hundreds of Palestinians killed" - failing to mention that out of those hundreds, only a handful are civilians, that most are Hamas members, and that Israel has taken great care to target only military objectives - even gone so far as to email and notify civilians ahead of operations that they are in danger and need to leave before strikes were undertaken - thereby harming their own strategic advantage in the process.

Israel does not target civilians - Hamas and the terrorists DO target civilians - is this reported? Is this taken into account when deciding on the validity and moral position regarding this operation?

Of course not.

The Palestinian propaganda machine is in full swing, running full bore - and so many, including many here in this country, are easy marks for the outright lies and omissions.

If I hear the term "disproportionate" once more, in relation to the action Israel has taken, I think I'm going to farking vomit!! Same old bullshit as is stated again and again when Israel has to defend herself.

There is no such thing as "proportionality". They need to ignore the propaganda and do what is necessary to completely eliminate, if possible, the threat of daily rocket attacks and terrorism from Gaza.
 

TECH32

Inactive
TECH32,

I appreciate your pointing out this fact -- I was not aware of this "treaty," and expect that many/most of the U.S. taxpayers are wholly unaware of the overall amounts of their hard-earned tax monies which are GIVEN (by "treaty or otherwise) to Israel and Egypt, nor have they thought through HOW their "gifted" tax dollars are further enabling the ongoing situation with regards to Israel and its neighbors.

I am against any further U.S. taxpayer funding of Israel or Egypt. These countries must learn to develop their own economies, funded by THEIR taxpayers -- Israel in particular -- they have had nearly 60 YEARS of being supported by the U.S. taxpayers, with no apparent plan to change this funding arrangement.

intothegoodnight

Well - Israel spends an incredible amount of their own money on defense. Were they ALLOWED BY THE US to address the problem once and for all, they wouldn't have to spend that money on defense.

And to put things in perspective - I think we give Israel somewhere around $3 billion a year. That's roughly $10 per American each year, or less than $1 per month to keep all out war from breaking out in the region and oil prices skyrocketing to $25+ a gallon.

A pretty good investment if you ask me...
 

MtnGal

Has No Life - Lives on TB
You know, it's really NONE OF OUR BUSINESS what another sovereign nation does to defend itself. I GUARANTEE that if Mexico was shooting missiles into Laredo, there would be a DEMAND for military intervention from Americans.


No, we just 'peacefully' allow Mexico to invade us with NO DEMAND for military intervention from Americans
 
Well - Israel spends an incredible amount of their own money on defense. Were they ALLOWED BY THE US to address the problem once and for all, they wouldn't have to spend that money on defense.

And to put things in perspective - I think we give Israel somewhere around $3 billion a year. That's roughly $10 per American each year, or less than $1 per month to keep all out war from breaking out in the region and oil prices skyrocketing to $25+ a gallon.

A pretty good investment if you ask me...

Where are you getting your 3 billion figure? I have seen much higher numbers, although I have not found a definitive source that is clear and complete -- seems that this dollar amount is PHOGGED, depending upon who is reporting it. I would like to see a table that reports monies given, by year, as well as other types of non-money valuables/war machinery and/or subsidizations that are not reflected in hard money reports, but cost the U.S. taxpayers, nonetheless, at the end of the day.

Regarding the "price" of cheap oil -- it is long past the time for America to become energy independent ASAP, so that our economy is NOT held hostage to the vagaries of ME politics and pro/anti-Israel sentiments -- above everything else, our energy independence should rank as a TOP PRIORITY for our government, and should be moved upon with the same ferocity and determination as was employed by the original Manhattan Project -- unfortunately, we remain mired in the muck of yesterday's thinking and politics, strapped into a monetary model/policy that is a detriment to the U.S. and her ability to lead the world by enlightened example.

Edited to add -- look at what is going on with regards to the Russian/Ukrainian gas "war," and how it is impacting SEVERAL European countries RIGHT NOW, in the middle of the cold winter -- an example of the "price that must be payed" if one is foolish enough to become dependent upon energy sources that are not under one's direct control.


intothegoodnight
 
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Zinnia

Constancy
Perhaps the American public is equally divided because they haven't been shown both sides of the story.

Had the media shown, day after day, hour after hour, of Hamas rocket and mortar attacks against Israel they way they are covering Israel's RESPONSE, then perhaps more people would be understanding amd supportive of Israels situation.

:applaud::applaud::applaud:
 

TECH32

Inactive
intothegoodnight,

Becoming "energy independant" is much easier said than done. The scope of what "energy independant" means to our economy and our way of life is just staggering.

We might get there one day, but it will be a looong time before that day comes.
 
intothegoodnight,

Becoming "energy independant" is much easier said than done. The scope of what "energy independant" means to our economy and our way of life is just staggering.

We might get there one day, but it will be a looong time before that day comes.

No time like the present -- the alternative of being energy DEpendent is already proving to be a losing proposition -- lives, reputation, sovereignty, and money.

Again -- in case you did not understand the reason of my mentioning previously -- the Manhattan Project was a government funded/supported/directed effort to perfect the atom bomb technology -- it was a 24/7 effort, that resulted in huge advancements in our understanding of the sciences of atomic fusion, and pushed the application sciences forward in many other ways. The knowledge gleaned with such an intense but relatively short-time effort could not have been imagined PRIOR to our accomplishment -- potentially years, if not decades of work and discovery were compressed into a short time period, with the results that we now all know.

A similar effort must be mounted for energy independence -- no excuses -- no whining about cost or need -- it is THAT STRATEGICALLY important to assure future western sovereignty and relevance.


intothegoodnight
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
ITGN, no matter WHAT numbers you've seen, they pale into insignificance against the TRILLION $ bailouts of US corporations, and the TRILLION $ illegal war in Iraq. So I guess my question (at this point) would be...


So what?


You know?
 

Kent

Inactive
ITGN, no matter WHAT numbers you've seen, they pale into insignificance against the TRILLION $ bailouts of US corporations, and the TRILLION $ illegal war in Iraq. So I guess my question (at this point) would be...


So what?


You know?

The war in Iraq is chicken feed Dennis, the Bailout Cost Exceeds All American Wars. (combined)

http://www.aim.org/on-target-blog/bailout-cost-exceeds-all-american-wars/

Bailout Cost Exceeds All American Wars


By Bethany Stotts | December 18, 2008



From CNS.com:

“The total value of the bailouts undertaken by the federal government in 2008 now exceeds the combined cost of every major war the United States has ever engaged in, according to a comparison of war costs calculated by the Congressional Research Service (CRS) and the value of the bailouts as calculated by Bloomberg News or Bianco Research.

According to CRS, all major U.S. wars (including such events as the American Revolution, the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, but not the invasion of Panama or the Kosovo War), cost a total of $7.2 trillion in inflation-adjusted 2008 dollars.

According to Bloomberg, the federal government has made commitments worth a total of $8.5 trillion in the bailouts of 2008. That includes actual expenditures as well as loan and asset guarantees.

Bianco Research puts the total value of the bailouts at $8.7 trillion.

The $296 billion spent on World War II, America’s most expensive war, would be $4.1 trillion adjusted to today’s dollars, according to the CRS report from June.

The adjusted cost of the Civil War would be $60.4 billion for both the Union and the Confederacy combined. The inflation-adjusted cost of the Vietnam War would be $686 billion. The cost of the current Iraq war up to last June was $648 billion, while the adjusted cost for Afghanistan to that point was $171 billion.

The total cost of the American Revolution was a relatively inexpensive $1.8 billion.”

This doesn’t necessarily count the $1 trillion “stimulus” bill that will come up in January or the additional $1 trillion that the Federal Reserve says it is likely to guarantee in the near future. From Marketwatch on December 16,

”The Fed’s balance sheet has risen to $2.25 trillion over the past two months from $850 billion and has made promises to spend about a $1 trillion more.

The Fed is using the money to ease strains in the market for the debt of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and mortgage-backed securities issued by these GSEs.

These purchases may be expanded, the Fed said.“The FOMC is also evaluating the potential benefits of purchasing longer-term Treasury securities,” the Fed said.

....By February, the Fed is also going to begin buying credit card debt and student loans.

This template could be expanded.

Under this plan, the Treasury is assuming the risk of loss while the Fed is making the purchases.”


Actually, the taxpayer is assuming the risk of loss while the Fed continues to make purchases.
 

TECH32

Inactive
No time like the present -- the alternative of being energy DEpendent is already proving to be a losing proposition -- lives, reputation, sovereignty, and money.

Again -- in case you did not understand the reason of my mentioning previously -- the Manhattan Project was a government funded/supported/directed effort to perfect the atom bomb technology -- it was a 24/7 effort, that resulted in huge advancements in our understanding of the sciences of atomic fusion, and pushed the application sciences forward in many other ways. The knowledge gleaned with such an intense but relatively short-time effort could not have been imagined PRIOR to our accomplishment -- potentially years, if not decades of work and discovery were compressed into a short time period, with the results that we now all know.

A similar effort must be mounted for energy independence -- no excuses -- no whining about cost or need -- it is THAT STRATEGICALLY important to assure future western sovereignty and relevance.


intothegoodnight

The manhatten project is a poor analogy. We have 100 MILLION+ cars and trucks on the roads that REQUIRE oil to run. There are, at least, tens of millions of homes which REQUIRE oil to heat them. And that's just the start. We require HUGE amounts of oil for plastics, lubricants, etc. Something 60% of all electricty generated in the north east comes from burning oil.

That is what I mean by "scope". Sure, we should be spending money towards developing technologies that will reduce our dependance on oil. I'm all for that. But to think that it's going to solve our problems in a matter of weeks (like the manhatten project) is just fantasy. We are DECADES away from being oil independant.
 

SarahLynn

Veteran Member
Energy independence is a LONG way away, if EVER. Meanwhile, were the USA to do what some of these short-sighted folk demand, and cut off all aid to Israel, leaving Israel to stand alone against the wacko Muslim horde, these very same people would be the ones complaining long and loud about the sky high price of gasoline which would result. Guaranteed. Because they were the same people who complained when it WAS sky high this past summer.

Also, I would like to know what kind of convoluted thinking equates going into Gaza and merely destroying a tunnel with a violation on Israel's part of the ceasefire? It's not like Israel stormed in there guns blazing and started killing whomever they laid eyes on, and it's not like they didn't have YEARS of missile strikes and mortar launches as plenty of provocation prior to their going into Gaza over that tunnel. This talk of Israel looking for a pretext to start trouble is ridiculous. The Hezballah have been violating the ceasefire in Lebanon for the past few years ever since it started-if Israel was looking for a fight they had plenty of cause to throw their weight around again in Lebanon.

But I'd like to know: Would you have preferred Israel to wait and risk losing a soldier to kidnapping like Gilead Shalit, or that one or two had been shot?
 
The manhatten project is a poor analogy.

It is a perfect analogy -- the harnessing of the best and brightest with a government funded mandate to get the job done.

We have 100 MILLION+ cars and trucks on the roads that REQUIRE oil to run. There are, at least, tens of millions of homes which REQUIRE oil to heat them. And that's just the start. We require HUGE amounts of oil for plastics, lubricants, etc.

Americans have proven, time and again, that they are able to achieve greatness when they focus upon the task at hand -- you obviously are not of the mindset necessary to contribute to the solution -- suggest that you stand aside, so as to not impede those who need to do the work necessary to effect needed change.

Something 60% of all electricty generated in the north east comes from burning oil.

Where did you get this "factoid?" Source, please.

That is what I mean by "scope". Sure, we should be spending money towards developing technologies that will reduce our dependance on oil. I'm all for that. But to think that it's going to solve our problems in a matter of weeks (like the manhatten project) is just fantasy.

I gave no timeline, per se -- how do you come up with the idea that our energy independence problem could be solved in weeks?

We are DECADES away from being oil independant.

Really? How do you know this? Kindly explain.

The time to start is NOW -- with a goal of energy independence -- the money that is being used to fund Israel and Egypt could, instead, be directed into this effort. It is time for Israel and others to support themselves.


intothegoodnight
 
hard

to believe the complete 'illogic' of some of these arguments.

Just how does footing the Israeli war machine keep the price of oil down?


And question number two, has the concept of peak oil ever entered your thinking?
 

SarahLynn

Veteran Member
You're right, DS.
After all, were the Russians in total control of the oil routes in the ME, they would NEVER shaft America as they are doing now with the Ukraine, Turkey and the Czech Republic over gas contracts. No way!
That's why some Iranians are suggesting oil rich ME nations cut the USA and Israel supporters off of ME oil-they're just kidding!
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=317170

Allowing a rival power to control and monopolize a vital resource and manage it for you is brilliant strategy!

Yeah, we don't need the USA in the ME at all-things would be so very polite and by the book without any restraining influences from the USA. Iran would become positively Pollyannaish overnight, they'd stop whooping it up against Israel and Israel would feel perfectly safe with the USA out of the area, wolves would lie down with lambs, and we could all beat our swords into ploughshares.
 
It

must come as a big shock to you that Israel has never safeguarded US oil supplies, has nothing to do with M.E. oil supplies other than putting them at risk as in 73, or currently in trying to use the youth of the US to safeguard THEIR oil supplies like the pipeline in Georgia and their aborted military fiasco there that brought the world close to the brink of a major military confrontation.

Israel has never done a thing to 'safeguard' US oil supplies, or to cause the price of oil to be low, or to be kept stabalized, in fact the direct opposite is true. They have endangered the free flow of oil, and with their threatened attack on Iran they run the risk of cutting off the flow of oil to the world for years to come - which would of course mean world war.

But that's ok. If that happens there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind that the US mil will just take the Canadian oil as needed.
 

SarahLynn

Veteran Member
must come as a big shock to you that Israel has never safeguarded US oil supplies, has nothing to do with M.E. oil supplies other than putting them at risk as in 73, or currently in trying to use the youth of the US to safeguard THEIR oil supplies like the pipeline in Georgia and their aborted military fiasco there that brought the world close to the brink of a major military confrontation.

Israel has never done a thing to 'safeguard' US oil supplies, or to cause the price of oil to be low, or to be kept stabalized, in fact the direct opposite is true. They have endangered the free flow of oil, and with their threatened attack on Iran they run the risk of cutting off the flow of oil to the world for years to come - which would of course mean world war.


But that's ok. If that happens there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind that the US mil will just take the Canadian oil as needed.

That's funny, nowhere did I state that Israel ever safeguarded oil supplies.
It may come as a shock to you -or maybe not, since you're so fixated on short sighted, rather self-congratulatory rhetoric-that what I am trying to propose is that the presence of the USA in the ME and in supporting Israel is a deterent to the aggression of those who would love to wave bye-bye to the USA in the ME and totally dominate the area.
Somehow you seem to believe that would help ensure a free flow of oil to the world. Dream on.

Keep believing that if the USA were to completely withdraw from the ME that the oil would magically keep flowing to the US unimpeded by a triumphant Iran or Russia, especially after what they've been doing to the Ukraine, Turkey and the Czechs . I'm just glad that the adults in charge aren't so naive or gullible.

Oh don't worry about us in Canada, we are currently doing very well thanks to the USA and your generous donations to Syncrude et al in Ft. McMurray:D

But were the USA to ever "take" Canadian oil, I have NO DOUBT that you'd protest THAT just as vigorously and with such near religious fervor as you protest all things Israeli...right....?
 

kozanne

Inactive
There certainly is no seed change among the leadership of Hamas and the Palestinian leadership. They use the cease fires as an opportunity to rebuild smuggling tunnels and time to rearm and position more rockets. The innocents always suffer. I hate war and I hate bloodshed of any kind and I'm no fan of some of the things Israel has done in the past. Yet would we allow Mexico to shell our boarder towns day in and day out and sit back and do nothing? If Canada was lobbing rockets accross the northern boarder every day would we just shrug our shoulders? I think the average Israeli citizen's are pragmatic and thoughtful. If Hamas would quit shelling and funding terrorism then they could live in peace with Israel and in turn Israel would be able to help them. It's not in Israels interests for an unstable situation on any of it's borders.

That's what's known as a 'hudna'. Means a cease fire in order to re-arm/regroup.
 
Yawn

The USA, my country, has a presence and influence in the M.E. That is not going to change OTHER than a complete heavyhandedness that is turning the Arab/Muslim world against US.

Israel does not 'prevent' the Russians from having an influence in the M.E. The US does. Unfortunately gw's policies and the looming bankruptcy of the USA will allow Russia to have far more influence than they have had in over a decade.

Israel does not lower the cost of M.E. oil to the USA. Skillful diplomacy and M.E. need for US technical and military ability does.

You can make spurious claims and then link them to your spacious arguments all you want.

You still don't back anything up with facts or logical and reasonable arguments.

Sooner or later the muzzies ARE going to get effective biologicals and due to the massive killing they undergo at the hands of Israel they will be released.
 

SarahLynn

Veteran Member
Israel does not 'prevent' the Russians from having an influence in the M.E. The US does.
That's precisely what I've been saying all along, congratulations, you finally got it! My very argument, which you have been denying and now suddenly seem to see the light, is that the influence of the USA should STAY in the region! And insomuch as the USA exerts that influence and makes it clear it will not tolerate totalitarian governments like Iran and Russia pushing their weight around in the region, including in ways which affect Israel which is an ally of the USA, the Russians and their cohorts will be contained.
You're the one making the specious arguments that the USA can abandon Israel to its fate with no consequence.

Uh, well, the 'Muzzies' may get biologicals but they will never completely wipe Israel out. Probably just as much literal "Blowback" would come on their heads and on their neighbours.

Israel has had enough and would take as many of the nutjobs with them as they could.
 
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