CRISIS The 2009 "Consumer Crash" Call is UNDERSTATED

Maher

Inactive
Doc posted this article at another Forum and I didn't see it here. It's an extremely important read....

Saturday, August 23. 2008
Posted by Karl Denninger at 13:37

The 2009 "Consumer Crash" Call is UNDERSTATED

I was directed this morning to a lovely article over at The Prudent Bear calling for a 2009 "Consumer Crash".

It is full of charts and documentation, and I strongly suggest you read it. All of it. It should in fact be required reading for our political entities and every high school student in the nation, along with every literate adult.

It is very heavy on charts and statistics, some of which I am going to unabashedly quote, and expand on.

Yes, expand on.

Here's the first pair:

g081408a.gif

Now this looks very bad, but in fact it is much worse than it looks. Why? For the same reason the rest of these charts are worse than they look - they portray averages, but not distributions.

And it is the latter - distribution - that is the real problem.

See, there are a very large number of people - perhaps much as 25% of America, that have no debt at all. Not even a car loan. I'm one of them, and in fact this has been, in the main, my viewpoint since I was a youngster.

Yes, I've had car loans and mortgages, but I never was one to run a credit card balance or charge plate at a store. Ever. There are quite a few people like me, some of them older, some younger, but not everyone is in debt up to their eyeballs.

This may sound encouraging. In fact, its not. Its quite discouraging, and seriously so, because for every person who is prudent, there is one who is doubly underwater to the degree depicted in the graph.

The impact of this will not sink in until you think about it. There are plenty of people, including those on Kudlow every night, who try to claim that "the consumer's debt load, while rising, is manageable."

They're looking at this same graph you are above, and while they are alarmed, they're saying "oh, yes, its a bit over 1x income, but that's not horrible given that debt service is in the low teens as a percentage."

What they're missing is that there is 20% of our population that is being utterly smashed, with debt to income ratios north of 300% and total debt service requirements in the 60% range or more!

Then there is "Joe Median" who has debt service in the teens.

And then there are people like me, who pay no interest to anyone.

Why does this matter? Because that 20% of the population is part of our "consumption lifestyle" - its the lady that I saw a few weeks ago at the opening of Dark Knight who had to pull out three credit cards before she found one that wasn't declined (over limit?) to pay for the $50 worth of popcorn for her and her brood.

For those people accustomed to spending like there is no tomorrow, the pattern of the last few years has been:

* Run up credit cards, rolling balances over from one to another "0% intro offer" as required, then opening a new line to charge up.
* When that gets to be difficult, HELOC out the money, pay down the credit cards, and repeat.

The problem is that now the HELOC window is closed, as home prices are no longer going up. We have seen an absolutely stunning drop-off in securitization of these loans, as there is simply nobody willing to buy them any more - their value on the secondary market has literally gone to zero, and those who currently hold them, including banks, are praying nightly that they don't default, as they're subordinate to the first mortgage and thus utterly uncollectable should the homeowner simply stop paying.

For that 20% of Americans who were goaded into "spend spend spend" following the 9/11 attacks and actually did so beyond their means, the train has hit the wall - we are now witnessing the "slow motion" pileup of cars as they derail.

This is bad.

But it gets much worse, because all of this "phantom home appreciation" in fact came from nothing more than speculative froth, and that translated into literally all sectors of the economy. There are now over 4,100 WalMarts in the United States alone, with almost the entire expansion over the last ten years being driven by the "McMansion boom" in the suburbs and exurbs of America. This "demand" was in fact false speculative froth, in that in 2005 we had nearly fifty percent more "home sales" than were justifiable by actual demographic demand!

Here's the next piece of bad news that you are going to like even less:

houseprices.serendipityThumb.gif

The bad news here is that the correction in prices, in inflation-adjusted terms, is only half-over. We've seen about a 20% decline thus far; another 20% is in front of us, and just as the first half took two years, the next half will probably take another two, meaning that prices are unlikely to finish correcting until some time late in 2010.

What this means for you is that if you think home prices will "bottom" in the next six to nine months you are sadly mistaken and are about to get a very expensive and nasty lesson in the reality of economics.

In addition we are likely to see an overshoot in prices - perhaps by 1/4 to 1/2 of the "height" of the bubble. If so, that would take inflation-adjusted home prices down to around $100,000, which is a decline of another fifty to sixty percent - not 30% - from today's prices.

You think this projection is "overblown"? Take a gander at this piece:

"He was selling houses for $300,000. That means a buyer would have needed a household income of about $100,000 to comfortably make the payments. But Merced’s per capita income of $23,864 ranks among the lowest for metropolitan areas in the country. “None of us paid much attention,” Mr. Glieberman says."

Now it is true that for every home that is valued at four times the sustainable maximum there are some that are much closer to a "real" price. But folks - does this not put a "face" on what's really going on, and those who claim "it will all be ok"?

What's the take-away from this?

If you owe more than 70% of today's value of your home, you will be underwater with certainty. If you owe more than half, there is at least a 50% chance you will be underwater within the next two years. 30% of all buyers in the last five years are underwater now. The other 70% of those buyers will be with nearly 100% certainty.

This puts into stark relief the outright fraud of programs like "Hope Now" and similar game-playing, in that such a refinance, if you take it, removes the no-recourse nature of your original mortgage. That is, you will lose the ability to walk away in the future, assuming you even qualify for one of these sucker-refinance "opportunities", as the bank will gain the ability to come after you in perpetuity and garnish your wages.

Don't do it!

Instead, if you are underwater today or at risk of becoming underwater in the next two years, go talk to a good bankruptcy attorney right now and figure out what your options are when, not if, your home value declines by another 30% - and whether you might be better off accelerating what is a certain future bankruptcy so you can start rebuilding your credit and life now.

If you still have equity but won't with reasonable certainty sell the house now and rent, then buy it back at 30-50% off in two or three years.

Don't let the sucker be you!

Why is this important? Because in two years if you intentionally default and rent a home for a while you will be able to buy your house back for 30-50% less than it is "worth" today, cutting your mortgage payment by 50% permanently and winding up with a sustainable mortgage. You will also have two years to build a 20% down payment on the much lower purchase price, and that same two years to start rebuilding your credit.

Again - this isn't legal advice - and you need it if you're going to practice what is known as "efficient breach" in contract parlance. I know I've been preaching this for nearly a year now and will repeat it once more - go get that advice today and figure out if this is the right course of action for you. For a very large percentage of those who bought homes in the last five years, it is.

When you analyze all of this you come to an ugly and inescapable conclusion - we're in deep trouble as an economy, and this is not going to be a "short and shallow recession."

It is instead going to be a very deep and long one, because credit growth - not earnings power - is what has driven the economy for the last 20 years, with the worst of it - a parabolic blow-off - happening in the last six.

This is utterly unsustainable and yet, as it corrects back to sustainable levels, it must by definition impact your lifestyle in a severe, impossible-to-avoid fashion.

Unfortunately the 20% of America who "geared up" and tried to "live large" is and will be screaming for bailout after bailout from our government. If they go down this path it will be a near-exact repeat of what Herbert Hoover did in the early part of The Depression, and will lead to the same result!

If you've been prudent for the last few years your job is to ride your government officials to stop this nonsense and instead focus on ring-fencing the government's balance sheet while forcing bloated asset prices, especially housing, to contract to affordable levels.

The key point is that irrespective of the path taken, the pain and business failures will occur. We are now arguing over who gets to eat the losses - not whether they will happen - and how long it will take before we find a "clearing price" for those assets that are overextended in their valuation, whether it be McMansions or shopping mall footage.

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/
 
It's going to get a lot rougher.

I've been reading KD for a while, this is one of his best essays yet!

Everyone should read this.
 

HeliumAvid

Too Tired to ReTire
Truely a game of musical chairs... but there are about 10 extra dancers for the number of chairs per round instead of one.....

Just let that sink in...

Bye Bye Miss American Pie...

HeliumAvid
 

big_sarge

Inactive
I am confused...but that is really nothing new...

anyways...I think that this data is being mis-interpreted and thuse the whole argument is false.

The data is the amount of debt per person as a portion of the national debt. It is not how much household debt each person carries privately.

Why would the Federal Reserve track the data of how much debt each person has anyways? It doesn't make sense...

So am I way off base with my understanding of this...or is the author manipulating numbers to add some more doom and gloom to our day?
 

Troke

Deceased
Well, half this board figures on a screaming Weimar type inflation, the other half figures on the 1933+++ deflation. Taking the middle between the two kind of indicates nothing much is going to happen.

And we all know that can't be true, so..........

Better prep to stay flexible.
 

Trivium Pursuit

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Flexible indeed. We are truly in uncharted territory. The world's reserve currency has never been so weak, there's never been a govt debt the size of the US Federal debt and we've never, ever had anything like 1.44 QUADRILLION dollars worth of deriviatives. No one has any idea whatever what it would look like if that unwound. Add to that the likelihood that we are near to the peak of worldwide oil production, and ...I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto. They don't call it 'uncharted territory' for nothing.
 

ichoric

Senior Member
Here's the damages by metro region...

I'm not sure who made the chart, but as-is, it's somewhat meaningless. Too many different shades of the same color that look too similar. ...Which is unfortunate, because it would've been interesting to try to see my neck of the woods...
 

cory

Inactive
You've got it.

Well, half this board figures on a screaming Weimar type inflation, the other half figures on the 1933+++ deflation. Taking the middle between the two kind of indicates nothing much is going to happen.

And we all know that can't be true, so..........

Better prep to stay flexible.

The fact is, on the average, nothing much will happen.

In the last recession, I found that 20% (very roughly) of the population lost everything. I've detailed this on W-RP and have mentioned it here.

2 pals are hard-core unemployed, 5 and 10 years. Another guy lost 2.3 Million dollars playing margin-margin with Cisco and dot-com stock. A W-RP member knows a guy who lost more than $20+M. The Baron's Worldcom stock lost $125K. Bethlehem Steel is paying a widow $2.50/day; she works nights at a hospital. Nortel Networks, the preferred investment of Polly-Bulls from c.s.y2k. There's a lot more but you get the point.

Given all that, most folks rode out 2000-2003 just fine. "What? What post-Y2K recession? Nuttin' happened."

Nuttin' happened unless it happened to you personally.

It'll be the same again. The 20% that guessed wrong will lose big, like, everything.

Everyone else will go, like, "Nuttin' happened" because nuttin' happened to THEM.

Here's what's shaking, here in this area. Fannie Mae, Sallie Mae, and Freddie Mac HAVE cratered out. Their stock is going for 5¢ on the dollar. Fannie Mae hosted the Y2K meetings and I got to know two VPs there. I figure they're lost, what, just about everything? A couple million in 401(k) savings? All three companies are HQ'ed in this area. I'm guessing that 10,000 local folks have lost their savings and are about to lose their jobs.

Here's another shocker from this area. Figure that 800+ people just lost their big pay jobs.

I'm agreeing with you. Best to stay flexible. There is no ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL answer. Some things are universally true and some truths are counter-intuitive.

For example, the whole "Wood stoves will save me because I can cut wood for free" isn't quite right. It's hyper-insulation that's the answer. If you can cut wood, sell the wood to a polly for cash money.

Ditto, the get out of the cities because real estate is about to crash. Turned out that suburban real estate crashed but city places kept their value. Something about jobs and public transportation.
 
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doctor_fungcool

TB Fanatic
The fact is, on the average, nothing much will happen.

In the last recession, I found that 20% (very roughly) of the population lost everything. I've detailed this on W-RP and have mentioned it here.

2 pals are hard-core unemployed, 5 and 10 years. Another guy lost 2.3 Million dollars playing margin-margin with Cisco and dot-com stock. A W-RP member knows a guy who lost more than $20+M. The Baron's Worldcom stock lost $125K. Bethlehem Steel is paying a widow $2.50/day; she works nights at a hospital. Nortel Networks, the preferred investment of Polly-Bulls from c.s.y2k. There's a lot more but you get the point.

Given all that, most folks rode out 2000-2003 just fine. "What? What post-Y2K recession? Nuttin' happened."

Nuttin' happened unless it happened to you personally.

It'll be the same again. The 20% that guessed wrong will lose big, like, everything.

Everyone else will go, like, "Nuttin' happened" because nuttin' happened to THEM.

Here's what's shaking, here in this area. Fannie Mae, Sallie Mae, and Freddie Mac HAVE cratered out. Their stock is going for 5¢ on the dollar. Fannie Mae hosted the Y2K meetings and I got to know two VPs there. I figure they're lost, what, just about everything? A couple million in 401(k) savings? All three companies are HQ'ed in this area. I'm guessing that 10,000 local folks have lost their savings and are about to lose their jobs.

Here's another shocker from this area. Figure that 800+ people just lost their big pay jobs.

I'm agreeing with you. Best to stay flexible. There is no ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL answer. Some things are universally true and some truths are counter-intuitive.

For example, the whole "Wood stoves will save me because I can cut wood for free" isn't quite right. It's hyper-insulation that's the answer. If you can cut wood, sell the wood to a polly for cash money.

Ditto, the get out of the cities because real estate is about to crash. Turned out that suburban real estate crashed but city places kept their value. Something about jobs and public transportation.

Sorry, Cory, but with all due respect... you're totally wrong....once again. Weren't you the person who never would acknowledge that a housing crisis was possible? Sorry fella, but housing is crashing, and that housing crash was predicted IN ADVANCE, right here on TB2K.........If folks had listen to you, they would be in dire financial shape.......housewise, that is.

The scenario is this: A depression of immense proportions..........

What you should be doing is checking out the soup kitchens in your neighborhood........Three hots and a squat are always preferable to pounding the pavement in search of food.
 

cory

Inactive
Once again.

Sorry, Cory, but with all due respect... you're totally wrong....once again. Weren't you the person who never would acknowledge that a housing crisis was possible? Sorry fella, but housing is crashing, and that housing crash was predicted IN ADVANCE, right here on TB2K.........If folks had listen to you, they would be in dire financial shape.......housewise, that is.

The scenario is this: A depression of immense proportions..........

What you should be doing is checking out the soup kitchens in your neighborhood........Three hots and a squat are always preferable to pounding the pavement in search of food.

I expected at worse a 10-15% pull back in prime areas, close in. Prices are solid to rising, close in. If you check the "real estate is doomed" specialty blogs, there are furious doomers who can't believe they were wrong.

They've even written a song,

Way out there
then not so far
It's coming in
soon in your neighborhood
on your street
then your house.... hey wait a minute, it's stuck out there. 3 years of huffing and puffing and it's still stuck, way out there.


Way out beyond the beltway (the ring road around DeeCee), prices are down, 30-40%. As far as people who live close in are concerned, outside the beltway is like the Moon or Mars.
 

sunflowerstation

Veteran Member
and we are much different than we were back during the last Depression. They were self sufficient back then, or able to be. How many are like that now? very few. you may not be totally wrong, cory, but you are definately NOT totally right, or even close.

Sunny
 

cory

Inactive
counter-intuitive.

and we are much different than we were back during the last Depression. They were self sufficient back then, or able to be. How many are like that now? very few. you may not be totally wrong, cory, but you are definately NOT totally right, or even close.

Sunny

This is a hard one to grasp because it is counter-intuitive, like the "wood stove will save me" mantra. It's not a wood stove, it's insulation and weatherstrip.

Self sufficiency is another mind-trap as is yearning for pre-technology.

An individual is far better off mastering an esoteria of technology, MySQL comes to mind, Ditto XML manipulation, PHP, or plumbing and electrical work.

Old Dan'l Boone, bar' hunter and indian fighter could barely keep himself fed.

1930's family farm? Most would starve to death or the bank and taxing authority will take it from you when things get a little harder.

I know several people who tried the family farm thing. They're commuting back to the city where the jobs are.
 

Troke

Deceased
"...I know several people who tried the family farm thing. They're commuting back to the city where the jobs are..."

Whole bunch of people I knew back in the 1960's tried that. They found they could only make it using 1890 tech, including medical because that cost cash money and they didn't have any. Thus no elec, horses only, etc.

They all finally gave up. Didn't have enough Amish blood in them, I guess.

You have to have the attitude of a monk to do this, I think.
 

doctor_fungcool

TB Fanatic
"...I know several people who tried the family farm thing. They're commuting back to the city where the jobs are..."

Whole bunch of people I knew back in the 1960's tried that. They found they could only make it using 1890 tech, including medical because that cost cash money and they didn't have any. Thus no elec, horses only, etc.

They all finally gave up. Didn't have enough Amish blood in them, I guess.

You have to have the attitude of a monk to do this, I think.

Yep, those folks when to Alaska to homestead......a very difficult choice for them....and a choice that failed.

Cory:

I'm not trying to be too hard on you, since you've made lots of good points in your post. I just want to point out that what's coming down the pike is going to be difficult for everyone, even those who are super rich and live in walled communities........Of course, that's my opinion, and we know how varied, and diverse opinions really are......
 

William

Veteran Member
Run for the suburbs!
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=298567

These two threads really go together, I have taken a middle or the road approach to all this. As I have said in past post I sold my home in Orange County California about three years ago, and bought a home in the suburbs north of SLC, Utah, but this is not a track home, this home sit on an acre of land with fruits trees, a spring fed pond, and plenty of room for a lager garden.

So between our prep’s, and the ability to grow food, to be close to a city for our other needs, and considering where we are, in the middle of Mormondom, so for me the real issue here is, location, location, location. So should that day come when TSHTF, we are in a good place, we will be able to barter and trade for the thing that we need, with others that need what we have.

There are no red neck crackers here in this Mormon community, nor would they put up with them, these are people that live by order in there lives, and Lord help those that don’t respect that order. But I would be afraid, very afraid if I was in, say, NYC, or any place like that, or out in the lawless boondocks, where you "WILL" be on your own.

Well that 21/2 cent worth, on this subject.

:kaid:
 

Running Dog

Inactive
In the first part of this thread, you said people should read this. But there is far more important read, that is missing, ignored, The Bible.
The reason we are in this mess, is because people have turned away from God, and doing their own thing.
 

William

Veteran Member
Sounds nice, William. I am curious though. How close to Hill AFB are you?

Hill AFB is 6 mile from my home as the crow flys from the south gate, Yes I know if we get into a nuke war with China or Russia, but then, no buddy is going to get out of this world alive, and we will feel no pain if that should happen.

I see the economy as the real threat, right now, that is what I have base my planing and preps on, lost of jobs, and of our crops in the mid, and northwest due to fllooding, civil unrest in the major cities, and the lack of law and order in the country side.
 

cory

Inactive
No problem Doc.

Cory:

I'm not trying to be too hard on you, since you've made lots of good points in your post. I just want to point out that what's coming down the pike is going to be difficult for everyone, even those who are super rich and live in walled communities........Of course, that's my opinion, and we know how varied, and diverse opinions really are......

I'm a data, analytical person. I also look at problems from as many different angles as I can.

As I said, I personally know people who lost everything after the rollover. Even the Baron, who is well-to-do and a hard-core prepper, lost $125,000. Pocket change for him but real money for most.

I estimate that 20% (very roughly) of the population lost big in the 2000-2003 timeframe. I was doing mainframe work, good money mainframe work, and ended up taking a job at about 1/2 salary.

I know two guys and have reports of many others who were too proud to do what I did, which was to crawl on my hands and knees and take any job I could find. It worked out for me, even though they fired me after 3 years. They really showed me. They had to get 4 guys to do my job AND that's after cutting out the hard part of the job.

Forward from here? I think we'll do fine. It's my definition of fine, not the pollies.

The real estate mess is pretty much a done deal. Outside of the ringroad around Washington, Interstate 495, real estate has fallen. 30%, 40% in some areas. Mostly these are the fru-fru, overpriced McMansions.

These are not going to fall another 30% but they won't zoom up either.

I own a small cottage, 2 bedrooms and 1 bath. It needs work but it's a solid brick and block house with a poured, reinforced concrete deck on the back. Under the deck, there's a concrete block "bunker". It was a coal bin but I use it for a store room. I plan to turn it into my safe-room and radio room.

My place is close to jobs, a revitalization area, and a couple blocks inside the primo "name" neighborhood. It's, get this, Beverly Hills. 3 years into the popping of the real estate bubble, my place is still going up in value. Not a lot, a few thousand each year. There are only 51 places for sale in my zip code.

I nailed it. Modest sized, quality homes, near jobs and in good areas have held their value.

The places that lost are the quick-up, oversized, hard to heat and cool, far from jobs, in questionable neighborhoods.

Jobs? I'm real worried. The nym to track in TB2K is Bubba Zenatti. He is one smart survivor. He seems to be doing fine so maybe I shouldn't worry so much.

I am doing fine, right now. Unfortunately, I'm seeing lots of people losing their savings and their jobs.

Remember the thread where I went "doom and gloom" earlier this year? Since then, about 1/4 of the folks I know one-on-one, have lost their jobs.

Some have found new work, some have not. These are not slouches. These are people with serious, marketable skills, major reps, academics, good work ethic and job history, some have "tickets" (if you know what those are).

I also know people who have lost big in the stock market. When you lose a couple million dollars, it's not, "well, the money was never there to begin with" or "you only lose when you sell." (those are loser-comments).

Then I go to the Giant Food and am horrified by the prices. What the H*** is going on?

Jobs, energy prices (gas is down to $3.45.9 near Baltimore), McMansions far out are busted, stock market losses (I'm mostly in the geezer funds), food prices, and taxes going up. Add it up and it's major trouble.

Well, major-MAJOR trouble for those who let their skills slip, drive a Chevy Sub-bubbah or Ford Exploitation, live way out there in an equity losing, energy drinking, McMansion, have their 401(k) in Fannie Mae or aggressive overseas growth, drink Starbucks and buy dinner at the Wholefood's deli counter.

Depending on where a person fits on all those spectrums determines how bad they're slammed.

Most TB2K'ers and W-RP'ers do not fit the Polly-Profile. Consequently, they escape the worse of the Vortex.

People, don't kid yourself though. Many people in your close circle will be wiped out. You have to listen for the signs.

They might lose $100K from the value of their $600K McMansion.

They might lose $50K from the value of the $200K 401(k).

They might lose their $60K/year job and take 6 months to find another one, that's a $30K cost of unemployment.

The extra amount for food, goods, gas, energy, could total $1,000/month easy, that's $12,000 in a year.

The pollies are done for. Not just toast, burned toast.

It's simple, right. Cut costs. I drive a 2000 Nissan Sentra, 4 door, 5 speed stick. It's pretty good on gas and gets me to the jobsite. A nice stew or chili feeds me for 50 cents a meal.

Amp up your skills. I'm studying server-side programming. I want to learn PHP and MySQL.

I moved my small pension accounts to the more secure funds a couple months ago.

Small house in a good area.

Work as hard and as smart as possible.

Ride it out.
 
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