ECON NAB will shock Wall Street

Altura Ct.

Veteran Member
The National Australia Bank's decision to write off 90 per cent of its US conduit loans will have dramatic repercussions around the world. Wall Street will be deeply shocked when they understand the repercussions of what NAB has done. It is clear global banks have nowhere near provided for their exposures to US housing loans which in the words of John Stewart are experiencing a “meltdown”.

We are now way beyond sub-prime. NAB says that it is suffering a 55 per cent loss on American housing loans – an event that has never happened in the history of a developed country in recent memory. This is an unprecedented event and means that the cost of bailing out the US financial system is now far beyond the highest estimates. A US recession is now locked in, but more alarmingly, 55 per cent loan losses point to the possibility of a depression.

It means the cost of bailing out housing exposures to the two mortgage insurers will be so great that it will leave no room to bail out anything else and there are several US banks that are now in big trouble. NAB says that the dislocation in the residential market is separate from the corporate market, but the flow on is inevitable.

While global banks have been writing down their balance sheet assets, few have tackled their conduit exposures which are off balance sheet but to which they are ultimately liable.

This morning at around 6am I wrote that we had been experiencing a 'dead cat bounce'. I had no idea that NAB would trigger the downturn and confirm what I had written. And of course Wall Street will receive a deep shock when it wakes up.

How did NAB get caught in $1.2 billion mess? They had a number of big clients who wanted to invest in these US housing loans. They were sucked in by the 'triple A rating' given to the securities by the rating agencies. They did not take into account that the monoline insurers who guaranteed some of the loans had no substance. To become a player NAB took out $1.2 billion in these triple A securities and 90 per cent of it has been lost.

Many Australian institutions are very angry. NAB is paying out far too much in dividends and should be conserving capital. The American bank it purchased, Great Western, was a good idea but it is now clear it overpaid for it. Fortunately it only has a small exposure to the bad loans. But what’s happening to the NAB is not the main game.

The global banks have been marking to market the assets they held on their balance sheet, but the vast amounts held in so called 'conduit trust accounts' have not been written down because they were not marketable. NAB wrote them down when they saw the bad mortgages.

US banks have written down $450 billion in bad housing loans. The revelation from NAB means that they will now certainly need to take provisions to $1,000 billion. But write-downs of $1,300 billion and perhaps even more are on the cards.

Where will the equity come from to cover these bad loans? The world has never attempted a rescue effort of this size and it will make liquidity in the globe very tight. That’s why corporates will be hit. All Australian companies that need equity should raise it now.


http://www.businessspectator.com.au...-shock-Wall-Street-GV4M7?OpenDocument&src=sph
 

Wowser

Inactive
Great catch Altura!

Dont let Troke read this one.

"US banks have written down $450 billion in bad housing loans. The revelation from NAB means that they will now certainly need to take provisions to $1,000 billion. But write-downs of $1,300 billion and perhaps even more are on the cards.

Where will the equity come from to cover these bad loans? The world has never attempted a rescue effort of this size and it will make liquidity in the globe very tight.
That’s why corporates will be hit. All Australian companies that need equity should raise it now."
 

Mzkitty

I give up.
In case it escapes anyone's notice, this actually means TRILLIONS:

The revelation from NAB means that they will now certainly need to take provisions to $1,000 billion. But write-downs of $1,300 billion and perhaps even more are on the cards.

The chickens keep coming home to roost. Cluck. Cluck.

:chkn::chkn::chkn:


:dvl2:
 
Last edited:

cooter

cantankerous old coot
just an off the wall thought,

when people screw others over really really bad, in which the american bankers did to those down under, I would not be the least bit surprised of those american bankers who talked up the game, and closed the deals with the aussies,

end up having some type of accidents , sometime down the road:whistle:
 

Maranatha

Redeemed
Guess that's part of the "dead cat bounce" talked about in the OP.

Mzkitty, you missed a big opportunity to use the :chkn::chkn: in your post. :crz:

MARANATHA
 

Wowser

Inactive
:kaid: :kaid: :kaid:

:lkick: :lkick: :lkick:

Stocks rise as economic fears ease
Wall Street bounced back from a steep decline in the previous session, on better-than-expected economic indicators and falling oil prices.

By David Goldman, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: July 25, 2008: 12:15 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Wall Street was in rebound mode midday Friday as oil prices fell and encouraging news on housing, manufacturing and consumer sentiment sent stocks higher. :lkick:

About two and a half hours into the session, the Dow Jones industrial average (INDU) rose 0.3% and the broader Standard & Poor's 500 index (SPX) index gained 0.5% from Thursday's close.

The tech-heavy Nasdaq composite index (COMP) climbed 1.1%, led by strong earnings by Juniper Networks Inc.

Stocks rose after the opening bell as investors cheered a surprise rise in factory orders. The advance continued as oil prices began to decline sharply and a housing market report dealt a much softer-than-expected blow.

"All the economic news came in better than expected Friday," said Peter Cardillo, chief market economist with Avalon Partners. "Investors are engaged in a relief rally after Thursday's major decline."

Stocks tumbled Thursday, dragged by financials, as dour reports on the housing market and employment renewed investors fears about a prolonged economic slump. The Dow lost 283 points, and all of the major gauges tumbled about 2%.

Economic news: Orders for durable manufactured goods rose unexpectedly in June, according to a U.S. Commerce Department report released Friday. Big-ticket orders to factories for items like cars, appliances and machinery rose 0.8% last month, far surpassing economists' forecast of a 0.4% decline. (Full story)

Also sending stocks up was an encouraging report on new home sales. Sales of new homes fell 0.6% in June to an annual sales rate of 530,000 from an upwardly revised rate of 533,000 in May, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Despite home sales slipping, that level was well above economists' expectations. (Full story)

Investors cheered the news from the battered U.S. housing market, especially as Thursday brought a dour report on sales of homes by homeowners. Existing home sales slipped 2.6% in June, according to the National Association of Realtors.

Wall Street also embraced news that consumer confidence got a larger than previously reported boost in July, according to a consumer sentiment survey conducted by Reuters and the University of Michigan. The revised index number came in at 61.2 in July, up from a preliminary reading of 56.6 for July and up from 56.4 in June.

"Consumer sentiment is obviously behind the rally," said Cardillo. "That's a very encouraging sign."

Oil: Oil prices fell $1.88 to $123.61 a barrel on renewed concerns about demand destruction. Crude has plummeted about $24 from its high of $147.27 set on July 11. (Full story)

"Any further break in oil would certainly lift Wall Street's spirits," said Cardillo. "For instance, if we could fall below $120, that would encourage investors."

Financials still sink: A day after weak economic indicators put a damper on a strong recent run by financial stocks, banks continued their slump Friday, preventing market gauges from making up even more lost ground.

"Obviously there are still some ongoing concerns about the financial sector," said Cardillo. "At the moment, they're under pressure, pulling back after a strong run up."

Government-backed mortgage financiers Fannie Mae (FNM, Fortune 500) and Freddie Mac (FRE, Fortune 500) both slipped for the second straight session after the House passed a rescue bill Wednesday that will throw government support behind struggling home loan finance giants. Fannie slipped 7% and Freddie lost 6% Friday.

Analysts said Fannie and Freddie declined after the rescue bill was passed because of a strong run up in their stocks prior to the vote. Often shareholders will "buy on the rumor and sell on the news."

Other banks also continued Thursday's losses. Wachovia (WB, Fortune 500) slipped 4%, still reeling from a Thursday downgrade by a Morgan Keegan analyst. Citigroup (C, Fortune 500) lost 2%, and Bank of America (BAC, Fortune 500) shed 4%.

Corporate news: Techs got a big boost Friday as network equipment maker Juniper Networks (JNPR) reported a 40% gain quarterly earnings and boosted its full-year outlook Friday. Shares of Juniper rose 16%.

A day after Ford (F, Fortune 500) reported its worst quarterly loss in company history, Honda Motor (HMC). reported a record profit for its fiscal first quarter. The Japanese carmaker said U.S. sales slumped, but sales grew rapidly in new markets. Shares still fell 1% Thursday. (Full story)

Video rental company Netflix (NFLX) said profit rose 4%, boosted by an increase in subscriptions and the introduction of a set-top box that can deliver streaming video directly to a customer's television. Shares jumped 3%.

Market breadth was positive. On the New York Stock Exchange, advancers topped decliners by a margin of 3 to 2 on a volume of 530 million shares. On the Nasdaq, winners edged out losers on a 2 to 1 ratio on a volume of 880 million shares.

Gas prices: The average price of a gallon gasoline fell 2 cents to $4.006 a gallon in the United States, declining for the 8th straight day, according to a daily survey from motorist advocacy group AAA. It's gasoline's lowest level since June 7, when the average crossed $4 for the first time. (Full story)

Other markets: In currency trading, the dollar was mixed against global currencies. The U.S. currency rose against the Japanese yen but fell very slightly against the euro and British pound. (Full story)

COMEX gold for August delivery rose $3.30 to $925.80 an ounce.

Treasury prices fell Friday, bringing the yield on the benchmark 10-year note up to 4.09% from 4.01% late Thursday. Bond prices and yields move in opposite directions. (Full story) To top of page
First Published: July 25, 2008: 9:37 AM EDT


Links referenced within this article

David Goldman
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/markets/markets_newyork/mailto:david.goldman@turner.com
INDU
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=INDU&source=story_quote_link
SPX
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=SPX&source=story_quote_link
COMP
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=COMP&source=story_quote_link
Full story
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/news/economy/durable_goods.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008072508
Full story
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/real_estate/new_home/index.htm?postversion=2008072511
Full story
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/markets/oil.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008072506
FNM
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=FNM&source=story_quote_link
Fortune 500
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/snapshots/2434.html?source=story_f500_link
FRE
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=FRE&source=story_quote_link
Fortune 500
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/snapshots/3018.html?source=story_f500_link
WB
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=WB&source=story_quote_link
Fortune 500
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/snapshots/2543.html?source=story_f500_link
C
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=C&source=story_quote_link
Fortune 500
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/snapshots/2927.html?source=story_f500_link
BAC
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=BAC&source=story_quote_link
Fortune 500
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/snapshots/2580.html?source=story_f500_link
JNPR
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=JNPR&source=story_quote_link
F
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=F&source=story_quote_link
Fortune 500
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/snapshots/160.html?source=story_f500_link
HMC
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=HMC&source=story_quote_link
Full story
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/news/international/honda.ap/index.htm?postversion=2008072508
NFLX
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=NFLX&source=story_quote_link
Full story
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/news/economy/gasoline/index.htm?postversion=2008072508
Full story
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/markets/dollar/index.htm?postversion=2008072509
Full story
http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/25/markets/bondcenter/bonds/index.htm?postversion=2008072512
 

Martin

Deceased
25 July 2008

NAB will shock Wall Street



The National Australia Bank's decision to write off 90 per cent of its US conduit loans will have dramatic repercussions around the world. Wall Street will be deeply shocked when they understand the repercussions of what NAB has done. It is clear global banks have nowhere near provided for their exposures to US housing loans which in the words of John Stewart are experiencing a “meltdown”.

We are now way beyond sub-prime. NAB says that it is suffering a 55 per cent loss on American housing loans – an event that has never happened in the history of a developed country in recent memory. This is an unprecedented event and means that the cost of bailing out the US financial system is now far beyond the highest estimates. A US recession is now locked in, but more alarmingly, 55 per cent loan losses point to the possibility of a depression.

It means the cost of bailing out housing exposures to the two mortgage insurers will be so great that it will leave no room to bail out anything else and there are several US banks that are now in big trouble. NAB says that the dislocation in the residential market is separate from the corporate market, but the flow on is inevitable.

While global banks have been writing down their balance sheet assets, few have tackled their conduit exposures which are off balance sheet but to which they are ultimately liable.

This morning at around 6am I wrote that we had been experiencing a 'dead cat bounce'. I had no idea that NAB would trigger the downturn and confirm what I had written. And of course Wall Street will receive a deep shock when it wakes up.

How did NAB get caught in $1.2 billion mess? They had a number of big clients who wanted to invest in these US housing loans. They were sucked in by the 'triple A rating' given to the securities by the rating agencies. They did not take into account that the monoline insurers who guaranteed some of the loans had no substance. To become a player NAB took out $1.2 billion in these triple A securities and 90 per cent of it has been lost.

Many Australian institutions are very angry. NAB is paying out far too much in dividends and should be conserving capital. The American bank it purchased, Great Western, was a good idea but it is now clear it overpaid for it. Fortunately it only has a small exposure to the bad loans. But what’s happening to the NAB is not the main game.

The global banks have been marking to market the assets they held on their balance sheet, but the vast amounts held in so called 'conduit trust accounts' have not been written down because they were not marketable. NAB wrote them down when they saw the bad mortgages.

US banks have written down $450 billion in bad housing loans. The revelation from NAB means that they will now certainly need to take provisions to $1,000 billion. But write-downs of $1,300 billion and perhaps even more are on the cards.

Where will the equity come from to cover these bad loans? The world has never attempted a rescue effort of this size and it will make liquidity in the globe very tight. That’s why corporates will be hit. All Australian companies that need equity should raise it now.



http://www.businessspectator.com.au...-shock-Wall-Street-GV4M7?OpenDocument&src=sph
 

UncurledA

Inactive
Martin, the renowned Jim Sinclair agrees:

From: information@jsmineset.com
Subject: The Catalyst For Financial Disaster


Posted On: Friday, July 25, 2008, 9:56:00 PM EST


The Catalyst For Financial Disaster

Author: Jim Sinclair

Dear Friends,

A serious event occurred today. This event was the very public international recognition of more off balance sheet so called "assets" revealed as having little, if any, value.

This event is arguably the most serious financial upset ever. If you have not protected yourself, it is getting very late - maybe too late.

Your best hope is that this event is so complex that the herd of self anointed experts has no clue what that vehicle is, how large it is and therefore the profound meaning it has.

Gold, serious junior gold shares (the only seriously underpriced and therefore real value in equities) and non-dollar short term federal currency instruments are your sanctuary. You better get there, and get there FAST!

The meaning of this is not only are Freddie and Fannie?s troubles much costlier than realized, but now there is an entirely new definition of market-less financial entities with off balance sheet assets that undermine primarily the US and now international banking systems. Conduit mortgage OTC derivatives will have to be marked down now that the sun is shining on them.

The U.S. mortgage industry transformed itself in a way that has opened dangerous SIV sub prime real estate conduits to global capital markets.

A conduit loan is priced by swaps and swap spreads, thereby becoming a package of various OTC derivatives generally derived from a formula that would make Einstein look like a kindergarten mathematician.

By turning mortgages into securities, lenders created vast distances between homeowners and their mortgage holders, who can be anywhere in the world such as Australia.

US banks have written down $450 billion in bad housing loans. The revelation from NAB means that they will now certainly need to take provisions to $1,000 billion. Write-downs of $1,300 billion and perhaps even more are in the cards.

That guarantees the USDX at .6200 and more likely at .5200.

That guarantees gold to reach at least $1650 much sooner than I anticipated.

This strongly suggests that my estimate of $1650 is significantly below the price of gold coming soon.

This opens the probability that a modernized and revitalized Federal Reserve Gold certificate ratio tied to the M3 will evolve into the monetary system.

The greatest economic crime ever committed is OTC derivatives. Those that proffered these will have killed more people than most wars.

This is it and it is NOW!

Respectfully yours,
Jim Sinclair
 

UncurledA

Inactive
And yeah, Bad Hand, you're probably right, but I've noticed the "bad news is good news" crowd has had fewer cupcakes on its tray lately. It seems to be wearing thin and short, as does Dollar intervention.
 

Martin

Deceased
National Australia announces more US credit losses
Saturday, 26 July 2008
National Australia Bank (NAB) yesterday announced an additional 830 million Australian dollars in losses from exposure to the US mortgage market, sending its shares plummeting.

The losses follow a 181 million dollar charge the nation's second biggest bank by market value took in the six months to March 31.
NAB shares dropped 12.25 percent by midday to 26.94 dollars on the Australian stock exchange.
Overall, the market was down 173.9 points or 3.4 percent at 4970.2, with sentiment hit by falls on Wall Street overnight as well as the news from the bank.

"This provision reflects the unprecedented conditions in global credit markets and, in particular, the rapid deterioration in the US housing market," said NAB chief executive John Stewart.
"We believe it is prudent to take a full provision now, based on a worst-case scenario," he said.

The final dividend would not be affected by the provision and the bank was comfortably within its target capital ranges, he said.
"The continued deterioration in the US housing market has been further highlighted in recent weeks with foreclosures mounting and recovery rates from security in some categories falling to less than half of the loan value," Stewart said.

A specialist team in New York was continuing to investigate ways of mitigating the losses, he said.
In the six months to March 31, NAB booked a 2.7 billion dollar net profit.



http://www.macaudailytimesnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13632&Itemid=34
 

DrexHex

Inactive
The National Australia Bank's decision to write off 90 per cent of its US conduit loans will have dramatic repercussions around the world. Wall Street will be deeply shocked when they understand the repercussions of what NAB has done. It is clear global banks have nowhere near provided for their exposures to US housing loans which in the words of John Stewart are experiencing a “meltdown”.

We are now way beyond sub-prime. NAB says that it is suffering a 55 per cent loss on American housing loans – an event that has never happened in the history of a developed country in recent memory. This is an unprecedented event and means that the cost of bailing out the US financial system is now far beyond the highest estimates. A US recession is now locked in, but more alarmingly, 55 per cent loan losses point to the possibility of a depression.

It means the cost of bailing out housing exposures to the two mortgage insurers will be so great that it will leave no room to bail out anything else and there are several US banks that are now in big trouble. NAB says that the dislocation in the residential market is separate from the corporate market, but the flow on is inevitable.

While global banks have been writing down their balance sheet assets, few have tackled their conduit exposures which are off balance sheet but to which they are ultimately liable.

This morning at around 6am I wrote that we had been experiencing a 'dead cat bounce'. I had no idea that NAB would trigger the downturn and confirm what I had written. And of course Wall Street will receive a deep shock when it wakes up.

How did NAB get caught in $1.2 billion mess? They had a number of big clients who wanted to invest in these US housing loans. They were sucked in by the 'triple A rating' given to the securities by the rating agencies. They did not take into account that the monoline insurers who guaranteed some of the loans had no substance. To become a player NAB took out $1.2 billion in these triple A securities and 90 per cent of it has been lost.

Many Australian institutions are very angry. NAB is paying out far too much in dividends and should be conserving capital. The American bank it purchased, Great Western, was a good idea but it is now clear it overpaid for it. Fortunately it only has a small exposure to the bad loans. But what’s happening to the NAB is not the main game.

The global banks have been marking to market the assets they held on their balance sheet, but the vast amounts held in so called 'conduit trust accounts' have not been written down because they were not marketable. NAB wrote them down when they saw the bad mortgages.

US banks have written down $450 billion in bad housing loans. The revelation from NAB means that they will now certainly need to take provisions to $1,000 billion. But write-downs of $1,300 billion and perhaps even more are on the cards.

Where will the equity come from to cover these bad loans? The world has never attempted a rescue effort of this size and it will make liquidity in the globe very tight. That’s why corporates will be hit. All Australian companies that need equity should raise it now.

Source of text

Source of news that text is referring to
 

Swamp Wallaby

International Observer
ANZ seconds the motion

More pain to come for banks, says analyst
Posted 3 hours 59 minutes ago
Updated 1 hour 40 minutes ago

Analysts are questioning how many more big write-downs are to come after ANZ became the latest bank to announce a major loss because of its exposure to volatile credit markets.

Today ANZ increased its provisions to $1.2 billion, blaming the credit crisis and slower Australian and New Zealand economies.

At 2:45pm AEST, ANZ's share price had lost 9.8 per cent to $16.01, after falling by as much as 13.24 per cent to a low of $15.40 earlier in the session.

Fat Prophets analyst Greg Canavan says the news that ANZ's higher provisions slash its earnings by up to a quarter has shocked investors.

"To get that type of magnitude of a fall from a bank such as ANZ has really knocked the wind out of the whole banking sector," he said.

"I guess the other big question is how much more of this is to come?

"We're probably still relatively early days into the credit crisis and I think this just underscores the amount of pain the banks may have to go through over the next say 12 to 18 months."

Meanwhile, Treasurer Wayne Swan has tried to allay fears over the health of the Australian banking sector, saying it is in a position to withstand the volatility on the global credit market.

Mr Swan says the banks are strong and well-regulated and have been transparent with the market about their financial position.

"As you know, these things change over time. But I'm advised by the regulators that they are satisfied that all of our banks have made full disclosure," he said.

National Australia Bank last week announced it was expecting to lose just over $1 billion on debt-backed investments that had turned bad.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/28/2316630.htm
 

Swamp Wallaby

International Observer
ANZ Crunched
Vivian Wai-yin Kwok, 07.28.08, 1:54 AM ET

Hong Kong - Australia and New Zealand Banking Group has provided yet another warning to investors that the global financial turmoil is far from over.

The third-largest lender in Australia said it would make more than $1 billion in provisions for bad debt in the second half, and it expects annual profit will fall 20% to 25%, blaming the continuing deterioration in global credit markets and softening economic conditions in New Zealand and Australia.

ANZ (other-otc: ANZBY - news - people ) said in a filing with the Australian Securities Exchange on Monday it was likely to write off around 1.2 billion Australian dollars ($1.1 billion) in the second half, following 980 million Australian dollars ($935.6 million) in write-offs in the first half.

The latest provisions will include 850.0 million Australian dollars ($811.3 million) in individual provisions from lending to certain commercial property clients, failed payment company Bill Express and securities lending; as well as 350 million Australian dollars ($334.1 million) in collective provisions, about 1% of the bank's international credit risk-weighted assets.

ANZ forecast its 2008 cash profit before provisions would likely rise around 8% to over 3 billion Australian dollars ($2.9 billion), but as a result of higher bad-debt write-offs, it estimated its cash earnings per share were likely to fall by 20% to 25% from the previous year.
ANZ shares fell 10.4% to 15.90 Australian dollars ($15.18). That put it down by more than half from its high point in October.

"As the deterioration in global credit markets continues and the slowing of the global economy plays out in Australia and in New Zealand, there are flow-on effects for our commercial portfolios and to a lesser extent the personal portfolios," ANZ Chief Executive Mike Smith said in a statement.

ANZ's profit warning came only three days after its biggest rival, National Australia Bank (other-otc: NAUBF - news - people ), said it had set aside 830.0 million Australian dollars ($793.1 million) to cover losses on its U.S. mortgage assets. (See "Housing On Fire: Investors Flee NAB")

However, in stark contrast to NAB, which was burned by its exposure to U.S. mortgage-backed securities, ANZ said its losses were from local lending.

NAB shares toppled 15% on Friday, and a further 2.6% to 25.87 Australian dollars ($24.69) on Monday.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/07/28/anz-loan-losses-markets-equity-cx_vk_0728markets1.html
 

Richard

TB Fanatic
Does anyone know the profile of the average type(s) of sub prime mortgage

not doing credit checks
lending excessively to the low paid, what are the levels (x salary)
etc

then apparently these were sold on as cast iron investments
 

UncurledA

Inactive
Richard, the subprime mortgage involvement becomes rather moot at this point, in my opinion, with the recent sharp upturn in the 3-month moving average for mass layoffs. That statistic doesn't even consider smaller furloughs and redundancies. The result is that more and more families are becoming de facto subprime-like performers. That, in turn, will continue to snowball as these families spend less on retail goods, and so on.
 
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