WAR First hand account of the Afghan outpost debacle

Troke

Deceased
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=56237

Soldiers recount deadly attack on Afghanistan outpost


By Steve Mraz, Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Saturday, July 19, 2008



Ben Bloker / Stripes



Multimedia
Spc. Tyler Stafford and Sgt. Jacob Walker talk about the attack.



Everything was on fire. The trucks. The bazaar. The grass.

It looked surreal. It looked like a movie.

That was what Spc. Tyler Stafford remembered thinking as he stepped onto the medical evacuation helicopter. The 23-year-old soldier would have been loaded onto the bird, but the poncho that was hastily employed as his stretcher broke. His body speckled with grenade and RPG shrapnel, the Vicenza, Italy, infantryman walked the last few feet to the waiting Black Hawk.

That was Sunday morning in eastern Afghanistan’s Kunar province. At a forward operating base — maybe as big as a football field — established just a few days prior.

Outnumbered but not outgunned, a platoon-plus element of soldiers with 2nd Platoon, Company C, 2nd Battalion, 503rd Infantry Regiment (Airborne), 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team accompanied by Afghan soldiers engaged in a fistfight of a firefight.

After maybe two hours of intense combat, some of the soldiers’ guns seized up because they expelled so many rounds so quickly. Insurgent bullets and dozens of rocket-propelled grenades filled the air. So many RPGs were fired at the soldiers that they wondered how the insurgents had so many.

That was July 13. That was when Stafford was blown out of a fighting position by an RPG, survived a grenade blast and had the tail of an RPG strike his helmet.

That was the day nine Chosen Company soldiers died.

It was just days before the unit was scheduled to leave the base.

———

The first RPG and machine gun fire came at dawn, strategically striking the forward operating base’s mortar pit. The insurgents next sighted their RPGs on the tow truck inside the combat outpost, taking it out. That was around 4:30 a.m.

This was not a haphazard attack. The reportedly 200 insurgents fought from several positions. They aimed to overrun the new base. The U.S. soldiers knew it and fought like hell. They knew their lives were on the line.

"I just hope these guys’ wives and their children understand how courageous their husbands and dads were," said Sgt. Jacob Walker. "They fought like warriors."

The next target was the FOB’s observation post, where nine soldiers were positioned on a tiny hill about 50 to 75 meters from the base. Of those nine, five died, and at least three others — Stafford among them — were wounded.

When the attack began, Stafford grabbed his M-240 machine gun off a north-facing sandbag wall and moved it to an east-facing sandbag wall. Moments later, RPGs struck the north-facing wall, knocking Stafford out of the fighting position and wounding another soldier.

Stafford thought he was on fire so he rolled around, regaining his senses. Nearby, Cpl. Gunnar Zwilling, who later died in the fight, had a stunned look on his face.

Immediately, a grenade exploded by Stafford, blowing him down to a lower terrace at the observation post and knocking his helmet off. Stafford put his helmet back on and noticed how badly he was bleeding.

Cpl. Matthew Phillips was close by, so Stafford called to him for help. Phillips was preparing to throw a grenade and shot a look at Stafford that said, "Give me a second. I gotta go kill these guys first."

This was only about 30 to 60 seconds into the attack.

Kneeling behind a sandbag wall, Phillips pulled the grenade pin, but just after he threw it an RPG exploded at his position. The tail of the RPG smacked Stafford’s helmet. The dust cleared. Phillips was slumped over, his chest on his knees and his hands by his side. Stafford called out to his buddy three or four times, but Phillips never answered or moved.

"When I saw Phillips die, I looked down and was bleeding pretty good, that’s probably the most scared I was at any point," Stafford said. "Then I kinda had to calm myself down and be like, ‘All right, I gotta go try to do my job.’ "

The soldier from Parker, Colo., loaded his 9 mm handgun, crawled up to their fighting position, stuck the pistol over the sandbags and fired.

Stafford saw Zwilling’s M-4 rifle nearby so he loaded it, put it on top of the sandbag and fired. Another couple RPGs struck the sandbag wall Stafford used as cover. Shrapnel pierced his hands.

Stafford low-crawled to another fighting position where Cpl. Jason Bogar, Sgt. Matthew Gobble and Sgt. Ryan Pitts were located. Stafford told Pitts that the insurgents were within grenade-tossing range. That got Pitts’ attention.

With blood running down his face, Pitts threw a grenade and then crawled to the position from where Stafford had just come. Pitts started hucking more grenades.

The firefight intensified. Bullets cut down tree limbs that fell on the soldiers. RPGs constantly exploded.

Back at Stafford’s position, so many bullets were coming in that the soldiers could not poke their heads over their sandbag wall. Bogar stuck an M-249 machine gun above the wall and squeezed off rounds to keep fire on the insurgents. In about five minutes, Bogar fired about 600 rounds, causing the M-249 to seize up from heat.

At another spot on the observation post, Cpl. Jonathan Ayers laid down continuous fire from an M-240 machine gun, despite drawing small-arms and RPG fire from the enemy. Ayers kept firing until he was shot and killed. Cpl. Pruitt Rainey radioed the FOB with a casualty report, calling for help. Of the nine soldiers at the observation post, Ayers and Phillips were dead, Zwilling was unaccounted for, and three were wounded. Additionally, several of the soldiers’ machine guns couldn’t fire because of damage. And they needed more ammo.

Rainey, Bogar and another soldier jumped out of their fighting position with the third soldier of the group launching a shoulder-fired missile.

All this happened within the first 20 minutes of the fight.

Platoon leader 1st Lt. Jonathan Brostrom and Cpl. Jason Hovater arrived at the observation post to reinforce the soldiers. By that time, the insurgents had breached the perimeter of the observation post. Gunfire rang out, and Rainey shouted, "He’s right behind the sandbag."

Brostrom could be heard shouting about the insurgent as well.

More gunfire and grenade explosions ensued. Back in the fighting position, Gobble fired a few quick rounds. Gobble then looked to where the soldiers were fighting and told Stafford the soldiers were dead. Of the nine soldiers who died in the battle, at least seven fell in fighting at the observation post.

The insurgents then started chucking rocks at Gobble and Stafford’s fighting position, hoping that the soldiers might think the rocks were grenades, causing them to jump from the safety of their fighting hole. One rock hit a tree behind Stafford and landed directly between his legs. He braced himself for an explosion. He then realized it was a rock.

Stafford didn’t have a weapon, and Gobble was low on ammo. Gobble told Stafford they had to get back to the FOB. They didn’t realize that Pitts was still alive in another fighting position at the observation post. Gobble and Stafford crawled out of their fighting hole. Gobble looked again to where the soldiers had been fighting and reconfirmed to Stafford that Brostrom, Rainey, Bogar and others were dead.

Gobble and Stafford low-crawled and ran back to the FOB. Coming into the FOB, Stafford was asked by a sergeant what was going on at the observation post. Stafford told him all the soldiers there were dead. Stafford lay against a wall, and his fellow soldiers put a tourniquet on him.

From the OP, Pitts got on the radio and told his comrades he was alone. At least three soldiers went to the OP to rescue Pitts, but they suffered wounds after encountering RPG and small-arms fire.

At that time, air support arrived in the form of Apache helicopters, A-10s and F-15s, performing bombing and strafing runs.

When the attack began, Walker was on the FOB. He grabbed an M-249 and started shooting toward a mountain spur where he could see some muzzle flashes. Walker put down 600 to 800 rounds of ammunition.

He got down behind the wall he was shooting from to load more ammo and was told they were taking fire from the southwest. He threw the bipod legs of his machine gun on the hood of a nearby Humvee. A 7.62-millimeter caliber bullet struck Walker’s left wrist, knocking him to the ground. A soldier applied a tourniquet to Walker and bandaged him.

Walker and two other wounded soldiers distributed their ammo and grenades and passed messages.

The whole FOB was covered in dust and smoke, looking like something out of an old Western movie.

"I’ve never seen the enemy do anything like that," said Walker, who was medically evacuated off the FOB in one of the first helicopters to arrive. "It’s usually three RPGs, some sporadic fire and then they’re gone … I don’t where they got all those RPGs. That was crazy."

Two hours after the first shots were fired, Stafford made his way — with help — to the medevac helicopter that arrived.

"It was some of the bravest stuff I’ve ever seen in my life, and I will never see it again because those guys," Stafford said, then paused. "Normal humans wouldn’t do that. You’re not supposed to do that — getting up and firing back when everything around you is popping and whizzing and trees, branches coming down and sandbags exploding and RPGs coming in over your head … It was a fistfight then, and those guys held ’ em off."

Stafford offered a guess as to why his fellow soldiers fought so hard.

"Just hardcoreness I guess," he said. "Just guys kicking ass, basically. Just making sure that we look scary enough that you don’t want to come in and try to get us."


If the Taliban organized this attack as shown after the arrival of US forces, they are a better outfit than I had thought.

One possibilty. By freak chance, and due to poor intelligence, the outpost was placed right in the middle of a main Taliban force.

The other: The Taliban had several days notice that the US was coming.
 

CTFIREBATTCHIEF

Has No Life - Lives on TB
*shaking my head in amazement and admiration*

There are no words that come to my mind, other than to be in awe of reading what had happened to those brave men. In awe of reading how hard they fought, how they kept it together and inflicted a world of hurt on the people who tried to kill them. The only thing I guess I can say? is that God has taken to his bosom, those soldiers who fell that day and has welcomed them into Heaven. I pray that all of our men who were wounded, recover fully and that the familes of all of the guys who were there that day, will somehow recover from having their loved ones hurt and killed.

They fought like warriors, They had each others backs, In a world where the word "hero" is tossed around like so much fetticini on a plate, THESE guys are the true definition of the word!. I hope they understand, and their families understand, that the main stream media doesn't have a clue, of the depth of support, love and admiration that "main STREET America" has for our fighting men and woman.

God Bless..:wvflg:

 

Shacknasty Shagrat

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thanks for the post.
'If the Taliban organized this attack as shown after the arrival of US forces, they are a better outfit than I had thought.

One possibilty. By freak chance, and due to poor intelligence, the outpost was placed right in the middle of a main Taliban force.

The other: The Taliban had several days notice that the US was coming."

There are a lot of questions, and I suspect, this operation will be examined closely.
'bazaar'??? So the base was located adjoining a town?
I wonder what the support plan was for the FOB or are we just dropping off people wherever and if they get in trouble, just wing it?
'All this happened within the first 20 minutes of the fight'

At that time, air support arrived in the form of Apache helicopters, A-10s and F-15s, performing bombing and strafing runs.'

'Two hours after the first shots were fired, Stafford made his way — with help — to the medevac helicopter that arrived.'

Our troops are excellent!!!
They have my respect, best wishes, and prayers.
SS
 

SIRR1

Inactive
I got goosebumps reading the story...

I can only say that I am so proud of these men who fought and died, now I have tears...

From the first hand report it seems that the automatic weapons failed under attack conditions from over heating.

Possibly we need to pull out the old water cooled machine guns from WWII and take a second look at them.

That would suck having your primary weapon seize up from heat in the middle of a battle.

God bless those men!
 

expose'

The Pulse......
Damn!

Talk about a wide-eyed head shaker!
When their backs were against the wall - they turned on the adrenal nitro!
If these guys are a sample of what we've got in our military today...our adversaries in the world had better take notice.

Why does Russia come to mind when hearing about the insurgents increase in RPG's and arms and sudden coordination in attack? :rolleyes:
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Damn!

Talk about a wide-eyed head shaker!
When their backs were against the wall - they turned on the adrenal nitro!
If these guys are a sample of what we've got in our military today...our adversaries in the world had better take notice.

Why does Russia come to mind when hearing about the insurgents increase in RPG's and arms and sudden coordination in attack? :rolleyes:

A lot of other countries make RPG rounds and use the RPG, including Pakistan. Pakistan has been playing both sides against the middle long enough. It is long overdue to tell Pakistan to either be our friend and do what they've promised on their side of the border, get out of the way or face the consequences of supporting these guys. The plausible deniablity of the Pakistani ISI activities has lasted long enough.
 

Troke

Deceased
John Masters, ex-Brigadier in the British Indian Army turned to writing after WWII to support himself. (His Brigadier peers ended up as butlers etc in the US) He wrote of fighting the Afghani's. Never do the same thing twice.

These guys were in place 72 hours without enough of a force to defend against a heavy attack.

Somebody should start reading Master's book.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
Housecarl nailed HALF the issue....

IRAN is the other half here.

PERHAPS the Sov's are providing SOME aid but not much... WAY too much liklihood that they would be running into their own ord in some of THEIR areas...chechens come to mind..
 

expose'

The Pulse......
A lot of other countries make RPG rounds and use the RPG, including Pakistan. Pakistan has been playing both sides against the middle long enough. It is long overdue to tell Pakistan to either be our friend and do what they've promised on their side of the border, get out of the way or face the consequences of supporting these guys. The plausible deniablity of the Pakistani ISI activities has lasted long enough.

You posted an article in June about Russia suddenly wanting to join the fight in Afghanistan...The article stated that Russia would be providing weapons to the Afghan Army...(and who else?..:rolleyes:)

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292585

A joint statement issued in Moscow over the weekend following the meeting of the United States-Russia Working Group on Counterterrorism (CTWG) revealed that the two sides had reached "agreement in principle over the supply of Russian weaponry to the Afghanistan National Army" in its fight against the Taliban insurgency. The 16th session of the CTWG held in Moscow on June 19-20 was co-chaired by Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Kislyak and US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs William Burns.

Talking to reporters alongside Burns, Kislayak said, "We [Russia] in the past have already provided military equipment to Afghanistan and we feel there is now a demand by the Afghan population for the ability of Afghanistan to take its security in its own hands." He added it was "possible" that Russia might increase the delivery of arms to Afghanistan, though "I wouldn't be eager to put a number on it".

All I know is that BEFORE Russia stepped in to (cough) help us..the insurgents were not that stocked with weapons or organization....Now, it seems like they had an endless supply of RPG's and someone helped them coordinate the attack...
It could be that some of Russia's arms deliveries have been hijacked by insurgents...but that doesn't explain their sudden tactical knowledge and wisdom...
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
This may help clarify or confuse more...

Posted for fair use...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0721/p08s01-comv.html

Behind Afghanistan lies Pakistan
The US is wising up about Pakistan, where Al Qaeda and the Taliban find safe haven.

from the July 21, 2008 edition

Like its towering mountains, Afghanistan looms as a serious security threat, with Taliban attacks on US and NATO forces there rising precipitously. But the road to improvement starts in Pakistan, and the route is as winding as the Khyber Pass highway that connects the two countries.

Al Qaeda has regrouped in Pakistan's lawless tribal region on the border, reaching pre-9/11 strength. Taliban militants also find safe haven in this remote region and cross regularly into Afghanistan.

This growing hornets' nest poses a risk not only to Afghanistan and NATO forces, but to the world as a whole. Islamist terrorists in the border area are hostile to the newly elected secular government in Pakistan. Remember that Pakistan has the world's second-largest Muslim population and is equipped with nuclear weapons.

Thankfully, Washington is starting to pay more attention to this part of the world. Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama visited Afghanistan over the weekend, and last week, Republican candidate John McCain elevated the region's importance by speaking extensively about it. Both recognize the critical role that Pakistan plays.

Meanwhile, Gen. David Petraeus is talking with Pakistani officials about how to better wage a counterinsurgency in the tribal areas. And last week, the leaders of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee pushed a bipartisan bill that provides a far more balanced US approach to Pakistan.

The bill, sponsored by Joseph Biden (D) of Delaware and Richard Lugar (R) of Indiana, would more than triple development aid to Pakistan over the next five years and aim to extend it for another five. It would put the American contribution to roads, secular schooling, and clinics ahead of military aid.

America has poured more than $7 billion into military aid to Pakistan over the past six years, with little result. In the bill, the military aid is contingent on Pakistan making a concerted effort to put down the terrorist groups.

By emphasizing development aid that won't dry up at the next US dispute with Pakistan, the senators hope to rebuild Pakistani trust – and build up a poor region, helping to drive out extremist Islam.

Many Pakistanis resent America's support for the military rule of Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who was spurned in February elections. They blame the US for the growing strength of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, saying it failed to finish them off at Tora Bora in 2001 and then got distracted in Iraq.

Passing the bill can help reverse this attitude, much as US aid for Pakistanis in the 2005 earthquake created a surge of goodwill toward America. But the legislation, which has support from the White House, must be viewed as just one rounding of the bend on the way to a reduced terrorist threat.

Other challenges include a Pakistani government in disarray; a triangle of suspicion involving Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India; and Pakistani security forces ill-suited to counterinsurgency. All of these factors contribute to Pakistan's intermittent and ineffective dealings with the terrorist infestation.

The US is making a more serious effort with Pakistan. A week from today, Pakistan's new prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gillani, is to meet with President Bush. Mr. Gillani should acknowledge this US effort and show that he, too, is more serious about the border region.

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Posted for fair use...
http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSSP229370

Pakistan army fights militants in northwest hills
Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:46am EDT
(Updates with clash in Baluchistan)

By Mohammad Hashim

KOHAT, Pakistan, July 20 (Reuters) - Pakistani security forces backed by helicopter gunships have killed 15 Taliban militants and captured 60 in an operation that began mid-week in a troubled northwestern town, the military said on Sunday.

The operation was launched on Wednesday around Hangu town after militants killed 17 soldiers and abducted 49 paramilitary soldiers and government officials just over a week ago.

"The operation is still on. We have successfully cleared the valley and now our troops are fighting militants on the mountains," spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas said, adding five soldiers had also been wounded in the fighting.

He said the operation's goal was to flush out militants from Hangu district, 40 km (25 miles) west of the garrison town of Kohat, but not to extend it into the neighbouring Orakzai tribal region, where most insurgents were believed to have fled.

Residents told Reuters by telephone that the military was using heavy artillery and mortars to hit militants' position in the Tora Warai area, about 25 km (15 miles) west of Hangu town.

Militants hurled a grenade inside a military cinema in Kohat city on Saturday night, wounding four people, including a 9-year-old boy.

A general deterioration in the security situation across the northwest in recent weeks has coincided with calls by Western allies with troops in neighbouring Afghanistan for Pakistan to put the militants under greater military pressure, while also engaging less recalcitrant groups in dialogue.

Authorities have imposed a curfew in and around Hangu.

Violence subsided in Pakistan's northwest after a new coalition formed following February elections began talks.

But Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, who is also wanted over former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's assassination, suspended talks last month and the security situation has deteriorated once more.

In southwestern Baluchistan, paramilitary troops battled nationalist rebels after a gas pipeline was blown up in a rocket attack, killing eight militants, a senior security official said on Sunday.

The clash broke out in Dera Bugti, a gas-rich district of the province, late Saturday.

Separatist rebels, fighting for greater autonomy and control over Baluchistan's mineral resources, have waged a low-level insurgency for decades, attacking gas pipelines, infrastructure links and the security forces. (Additional reporting by Gul Yousafzai in Quetta; Writing by Kamran Haider; Editing by Alex Richardson)

© Thomson Reuters 2008. All rights reserved.

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Posted for fair use....
http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSISL21506


ANALYSIS-US plays for high stakes on Pakistan-Afghan border

Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:36pm EDT
By Zeeshan Haider

PESHAWAR, Pakistan, July 20 (Reuters) - Former U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld may not have been shy about projecting U.S. military power, but even he didn't dare send American troops into Pakistan's tribal lands to snatch or kill al Qaeda leaders.

But now Pakistanis fear the U.S. presidential campaign has heated up the foreign policy debate over how to handle the Taliban and al Qaeda threat to a point where American leaders could throw caution to the wind by taking unilateral action.

"If this was a possibility in the past, it's a high possibility now," said a senior security official in the northwestern city of Peshawar, shuddering at the statements coming from the United States.

In 2005, Rumsfeld reportedly aborted a mission to eliminate Ayman al-Zawahri, al Qaeda's second-in-command, because it involved too many troops, chances of success were too uncertain, and the danger of riling the situation in Pakistan was too great.

The risks today may be even greater, with Pakistan going through a precarious transition to civilian-led democracy and tribesmen across the northwest reaching for their guns.

"If Americans hit the Pakistani side, they will make more enemies for themselves," Ayaz Wazir, a former Pakistani ambassador to Kabul, said.

TALIBAN PROTECTION

Mounting casualties among Western troops across the border in Afghanistan have fuelled alarm, as have intelligence assessments that al Qaeda could organise strikes on Western soil having regrouped in the tribal areas under Taliban protection.

The United States is now piling resources into Afghanistan, where the Taliban insurgency is stronger than ever 6-½ years after U.S.-backed forces drove the Islamist militia and its al Qaeda guests into the mountains on the Pakistan border.

With Western forces pressing into areas where the militants had ranged, there have been more encounters, more casualties, and more talk of ordering "hot pursuit" into Pakistani territory.

Talat Masood, a former general turned political analyst, said U.S. Congressional hearings, the media and think-tanks were generating the kind of hype that could persuade President George W. Bush to authorise an intensification of air strikes and even limited ground operations in the tribal belt.

"Pakistan must have to take action on its own. It is left with no other option," Masood told Reuters.

An American incursion would be a call to arms for tribesmen who had hitherto shunned the insurgency based in the ethnic Pashtun tribal belt straddling the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and undermine the fledgling civilian, coalition government.

"Anti-American sentiments will rise exponentially," Masood wrote in the Daily Times. "The civilian government would be destabilised and moderate forces will be further marginalised."

TRUST RUNNING LOW

In past week U.S. impatience has been very evident.

There is a perception that the Pakistan army reduced pressure on Taliban groups in the border areas as the new government tried to get tribal elders to persuade the militants to end their war.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has also cast accusations that members of Pakistan's security apparatus are playing a double-game by helping the Taliban insurgency in order to preserve leverage in southern Afghanistan for the day when Western governments pull their forces out.

Bush has said he is "troubled" by al Qaeda's presence in Pakistan and will discuss the matter with Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani when they meet in Washington on July 28.

Admiral Michael Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, spoke of greater numbers of insurgents and foreign fighters crossing from Pakistan, "unmolested and unhindered" and warned: "This movement has to stop."

Rumsfeld's successor, Defence Secretary Robert Gates repeated that U.S. troops were "ready, willing and able" to help if the Pakistani government asked, but there was "a real need to do something on the Pakistani side of the border".

Analyst Hasan Askari Rizvi doubted whether the United States would act too rashly. "If at all they decide to take action, it will be very, very limited but quite effective action."

But the sense of trepidation in Pakistan that the United States might dispense with diplomatic niceties was reinforced by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's remarks.

"We cannot tolerate a terrorist sanctuary, and as president, I won't," Obama said in a major foreign policy speech.

"We must make it clear that if Pakistan cannot or will not act, we will take out high level terrorist targets like bin Laden if we have them in our sights." (Editing by Simon Cameron-Moore and Alex Richardson)

© Thomson Reuters 2008. All rights reserved.

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Posted for fair use....
http://www.istockanalyst.com/articl...leid_2413906~title_EDITORIAL--Get-Tough-.html

EDITORIAL: Get Tough: Strong Action Needed to Induce Pakistan to Fight Terrorists on Its Border

By The Columbus Dispatch, Ohio

Jul. 20--The time has come for a serious debate about cutting off U.S. military funding for Pakistan. Two leading U.S. senators propose a freeze unless Pakistan does more to stop the flow of violent extremists into Afghanistan.

The $5.6 billion in military aid since 9/11 was intended to reimburse Pakistani forces for fighting Afghan insurgents linked to the Taliban or al-Qaida. But Pakistan's counterinsurgency has been a fraud against U.S. taxpayers. Nearly seven years since the attacks on New York City and the Pentagon, the Pakistani military still lacks a comprehensive plan to uproot militants in the rugged mountains of northwestern Pakistan.

The semiautonomous tribal region is a haven for jihadists and likely is where Osama bin Laden is hiding.

Some of the U.S. assistance, part of an aid package of nearly $11 billion since 2001, appears to have been directed instead to counter the military power of India, Pakistan's rival.

Sens. Joseph R. Biden Jr., D-Del., and Richard G. Lugar, R-Ind., ranking members of the Foreign Relations Committee, have had enough. Their bill proposes $7.5 billion in development aid for hospitals, schools and roads over the next five years but suspends military funding unless the State Department can certify that the Pakistani forces are making "concerted efforts" to defeat the insurgents.

Lugar says the bill envisions further cooperation with Pakistan but denies Islamabad a "blank check."

Pakistani governments, both the military regime of Gen. Pervez Musharraf and the current civilian leadership, have been more inclined to negotiate with the violent extremists than defeat them. Pakistan's leaders fear a backlash from ultrastrict Muslims if they crack down too hard. Truces give the insurgents time to regroup.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai said that members of Pakistan's army and intelligence service are supporting the insurgents. He accused Pakistani forces of involvement in various attacks, including an assassination attempt on Karzai in April and a suicide bombing on July 7 that killed more than 60 people outside the Indian Embassy in Kabul.

President Bush, who has been hesitant to criticize Pakistan, said the U.S. will investigate Karzai's accusations.

In the most-recent assault launched from Pakistan, about 200 heavily armed militants attacked a U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, killing nine U.S. soldiers.

When the perpetrators are unable to sustain their positions, they slip back across the porous border to seek sanctuary. The Pakistani Frontier Corps, the paramilitary force that is supposed to police the tribal areas, often refuses to engage insurgents in battle.

If Pakistanis won't do the job, they should allow NATO- and U.S.-led forces serving in Afghanistan into Pakistan to attack the insurgents' bases. Pakistan's concern about national sovereignty rings hollow because it allows the Taliban and al-Qaida to violate Pakistani sovereignty with impunity.

The U.S. should require that allies in the war on terrorism be true partners.

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Posted for fair use....
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\07\20\story_20-7-2008_pg3_2

ANALYSIS: Saving Pakistan — Dr Hasan-Askari Rizvi

It is a wrong assumption that the Taliban will again become friendly to Pakistan if it gives up its support to the US-led war on terrorism. The Taliban have an anarchist agenda that aims at dismantling the Pakistani state

The debate continues unabated on militancy in the tribal areas and how the United States should cope with its spillover in Afghanistan. Official circles in Washington hint at resorting to unilateral military action in the tribal areas against the backdrop of intensified military challenges to American and NATO troops from Afghan and Pakistani Taliban, and the overall deterioration of the security situation in southern Afghanistan.

It may appear quite reasonable to some US military strategists to take unilateral military action in the tribal areas, including the use of ground troops. There is no guarantee that such an action can eliminate militancy in the area. Rather, it may worsen the situation and increase American losses. The US should balance the need to control militancy in the tribal areas with the importance of stability in Pakistan. Any major unilateral US military action in the tribal areas will destabilise Pakistan, which will in turn undermine the US goal of controlling militancy and ensuring stability in Afghanistan.

Despite the current distrust between Pakistan and the US on coping with militancy in and around Pakistan, they will have to work together to address these problems.

American talk of unilateral action unnerves the Government of Pakistan, which is already faltering in addressing acute internal political and economic challenges. Top Pakistani officials attempt to salvage their credibility by declaring that no foreign country will be allowed to undertake military action on Pakistani territory. These statements sound hollow to those who remember periodic US air-strikes and, at times, limited ground offensives in the tribal areas. Any new American offensive will add to the problems of the Pakistani government in the domestic context.

Pakistan is using diplomatic channels to dissuade the US from taking unilateral military action. Its Foreign Minister, Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi, visited the US last week to convince American policymakers that Pakistan views the war on terrorism as its own war and that Pakistan is determined to control extremism and militancy. His spirited defence of Pakistani policy was weakened by the statement of Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani on July 14 on the possibility of “Nine-Eleven-like attacks” on the West from the tribal areas and he admitted that Uzbeks, Chechens and other foreign militants were based there.

Pakistani officials are unable or unwilling to explain why and how these elements have become so entrenched in the tribal areas that many people talk of the spectre of another 9/11.

The war on terrorism is so closely identified with the US that a good number of politically active circles in Pakistan, especially those with strong Islamic orientations, do not view it as serving Pakistan’s interests. Their worldview is so coloured by anti-America sentiments that they are unable to comprehend the fast increasing threat of extremism and militancy to civic order and stability in Pakistan. This worldview was partly modified in the aftermath of the Red Mosque incident when the Taliban and affiliated groups resorted to suicide attacks in parts of the Pakistani mainland; some of them began to view Islamic hardliners as a threat to the Pakistani state and society.

However, there are still people in Pakistan, including some in the military and civilian official circles, who consider Pakistani security operations against militants in the tribal areas and the Red Mosque the sole reason for increased violence. They view Taliban violence as a reaction to the use of force against them by Pakistan and the US rather than a strategy to establish their hegemony in the name of Islam.

Some, including those with military backgrounds, describe militancy as the instrument of the weak to challenge a powerful adversary and they describe suicide attacks as defensive moves by the Taliban, who do not possess advanced military equipment.

Pakistan’s civilian leadership, military and intelligence cannot cope with the challenge of extremism and militancy without developing a categorical consensus that Taliban-type elements constitute the main threat to Pakistan’s existence as a coherent and effective state. Religious fanaticism and violent enforcement of a narrow interpretation of Islam will tear apart Pakistani society to such an extent that it will not be able to sustain itself as a collective social entity.

Pakistan’s salvation lies in working towards an egalitarian, pluralist and democratic political order that derives ethical inspiration from the teaching and ideals of Islam. Pakistan has to identify with and practice Jinnah and Iqbal’s vision of a homeland for the Muslims that gave equal status to the followers of other religions.

Pakistan’s survival depends on functioning as a nation-state in an inter-dependent international system. Some extremist groups cannot be allowed to hijack Pakistan to pursue their narrow and bigoted agenda.

The political circles have to first develop a consensus among themselves on the dangers of religious extremism and violence. This will make it easy for them to mobilise the people in favour of a tolerant, plural and democratic socio-political order.

People have to be sensitised to a number of issues. First, no individual or group has the right to enforce Islam by coercive means. None of the Taliban leadership is a known Islamic scholar who understands Islamic teachings and principles in their true spirit and recognises diversity in the interpretation of Quranic verses and Shariah.

Second, no group can establish a state within the Pakistani state and resort to public executions, extract money for protection or doing business in the region, kidnap for ransom and dispatch young boys as suicide bombers.

Third, Pakistan should not allow its territory to be used by any group for challenging established authority in a neighbouring state. The principle of sovereignty applies equally to Pakistan and other states.

Fourth, the time has come to finally give up the esoteric notions of ‘territorial depth’, ‘militancy as an instrument of the weak’, ‘militants as the vanguard of the Pakistan military’, and that the Taliban are now contesting the Pakistani state because it is pursuing the American agenda in the region. It is also a wrong assumption that the Taliban will again become friendly to Pakistan if it gives up its support to the US-led war on terrorism. The Taliban have an anarchist agenda that aims at dismantling the Pakistani state.

One of the Pakistani Taliban leaders, Baitullah Mehsud, is said to have delivered an ultimatum to the NWFP government to resign in five days or face his wrath. This shows that the Taliban are determined to confront the Pakistani state because they have learnt from experience that the Pakistani state caves in to their demands. If these trends continue, the Taliban will soon demand the withdrawal of federal administrative and security presence from the tribal areas.

The federal government and the military/intelligence authorities should adopt a determined and unambiguous approach to cope with the militancy challenge. However, the federal government has lost most of its momentum due to its failure to work along with its political partners on restoring the ousted judges and deciding the future of Musharraf. If the political forces continue to drift in different directions, they may not be able to cope with the current challenges to the Pakistani state and may lose the initiative either to the military or to the Taliban.

<>Dr Hasan-Askari Rizvi is a political and defence analyst
 
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Red Baron

Paleo-Conservative
_______________
Getting to be the same old story,

- M4/M16's malfunctioning.

- M249 Squad Automatic Weapon is a hopeless joke.

- Air assets unavailable and uncoordinated.

- Not enough shoulder fired rockets for our troops.

Regardless, I am sure our guys doled out a -lot- more casualties than they recieved...
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Getting to be the same old story,

- M4/M16's malfunctioning.

- M249 Squad Automatic Weapon is a hopeless joke.

- Air assets unavailable and uncoordinated.

- Not enough shoulder fired rockets for our troops.

Regardless, I am sure our guys doled out a -lot- more casualties than they recieved...

Something else that was missing from the report on the fight for the patrol base, unless I missed it, no mention of defensive mines, particularly command detonated claymores.
 
From Housecarl's posted articles:

Remember that Pakistan has the world's second-largest Muslim population and is equipped with nuclear weapons.

Thankfully, Washington is starting to pay more attention to this part of the world. Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama visited Afghanistan over the weekend, and last week, Republican candidate John McCain elevated the region's importance by speaking extensively about it. Both recognize the critical role that Pakistan plays.

Meanwhile, Gen. David Petraeus is talking with Pakistani officials about how to better wage a counterinsurgency in the tribal areas. And last week, the leaders of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee pushed a bipartisan bill that provides a far more balanced US approach to Pakistan.

The bill, sponsored by Joseph Biden (D) of Delaware and Richard Lugar (R) of Indiana, would more than triple development aid to Pakistan over the next five years and aim to extend it for another five. It would put the American contribution to roads, secular schooling, and clinics ahead of military aid.

America has poured more than $7 billion into military aid to Pakistan over the past six years, with little result. In the bill, the military aid is contingent on Pakistan making a concerted effort to put down the terrorist groups.

By emphasizing development aid that won't dry up at the next US dispute with Pakistan, the senators hope to rebuild Pakistani trust – and build up a poor region, helping to drive out extremist Islam.

No.

We have been sending BILLIONS to Egypt, Israel, Pakistan, etc. for YEARS in an attempt to buy off government/military and provide a pre-funded and ready-made market for numerous international entities engaged in the business of war and war munitions.

There is too much money made, by ALL sides, in the business of war - the Russians, the Chinese, the western nations, and all of the middle-men and smugglers who populate this lucrative money chain -- next to illegal drugs, war is THE MOST PROFITABLE undertaking that an entity could engage in.

It is TIME for Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Yemen, Israel, and India to pick up the tab, both in military AND money. The USA is broke, and the U.S. citizens and taxpayers cannot any longer afford to carry this burden. If THEY (Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Yemen, Israel, and India) are unable to prevail and bring some semblance of order, and, instead, the whole of the ME turns into a war-zone, then so be it -- let them fight it out, and exhaust themselves in the process -- the U.S. can take another look once things are settled out, if this were the outcome.

Which is WHY it is PAST THE TIME to move our country AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE towards energy INDEPENDENCE. Whatever the ME becomes or evolves into, we will NOT be beholden to their insane whims and fancied hatreds, nor will we be fueling those fires by our economic or military presence.

OK. Shall we debate the realities of a nuclear Pakistan or Iran, in the context of what this would mean to a disengaged U.S.A.?


intothegoodnight
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
More...
Posted for fair use...
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JG17Df02.html

July 17, 2008
Militants ready for a war without borders
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

KARACHI - From thinly disguised insinuations against Pakistan following the suicide attack on the Indian Embassy in Kabul this month to outright accusations against Islamabad by the Afghan government over the unrelenting Taliban-led insurgency, the blame game has entered a critical time: a major regional battle could erupt in a matter of days.

Last week, US Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman Admiral Mike Mullen paid a sudden visit to Pakistan during which he revealed to Pakistani leaders and military officials the possibility of surgical strikes on Taliban and al-Qaeda networks operating in the border regions and that coalition forces in Afghanistan would not hesitate to conduct hot-pursuit raids into Pakistan.

Mullen urged Pakistani leaders to play their part from their side. He pin-pointed the North and South Waziristan tribal areas as a focal point, along with the areas of Razmak, Shawal, Ghulam Khan and Angor Ada along the border with Afghanistan. Across the divide, Khost province is considered a likely target for carpet bombing and an offensive by the Afghan National Army.

Pakistani army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kiani was quick to call in senior strategic analysts, who pointed out that the military would only follow the directions of the civilian government. Yet just days earlier, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gillani had announced that all decisions concerning military operations would be decided by the army chief. This does not bode well for Pakistan's whole-hearted cooperation.

But regardless of how sincerely the Pakistani army fights against the Taliban, the fact is that the Taliban have already staged a virtual coup in North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) bordering Afghanistan.

They have established a reign of terror against which the state writ is powerless. In all districts, the Taliban have taken security officials hostage to press their demands that a strict Islamic code be enforced. Many officials have been killed when the Taliban's wishes have not been granted.

As a result, the middle and lower members of the security forces are effectively non-functional and answer to the Taliban's call across NWFP.

This has left the secular and relatively liberal government of the province, led by the Awami National Party, with no choice but to form "defense committees" at the district level to organize civilians against a complete Taliban take-over.

Across the border, a similar situation exists in Ghazni province, close to the capital Kabul, where, apart from the provincial headquarters, the Taliban call the shots in all districts once dusk descends - the district administrations and the police simply give up control, giving the Taliban freedom of movement.

In Kunar and Nooristan provinces, the Taliban are fighting for similar dominance and already most security checkpoints have been abandoned out of fear of the Taliban.

On Monday, a high-level al-Qaeda shura (council) concluded in Miramshah in North Waziristan with instructions to all members with families to retreat to safe locations in expectation of the Afghan war spreading into Pakistan's tribal areas.

Not that this alarms al-Qaeda and the Pakistani Taliban. They reason that should coalition forces seriously enter into Pakistan (they have in the past sent unmanned Predator drones on raids into Pakistan), the reaction in Pakistan, even among liberals, would be so fierce that the Pakistani army would not dare to follow up with action of its own. This would leave the militants with a free hand to launch operations inside Afghanistan.

The shura also noted that militant ranks in the region had received their biggest boost since the US invasion of Iraq in 2003, including growing numbers from Muslim countries.

Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief. He can be reached at saleem_shahzad2002@yahoo.com

Copyright 2008 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved.
 

Yarnball

Veteran Member
My uncle told me many stories of the assaults/fighting he was involved in when in Nam. This story somehow reminded me of those. He always said you never knew who was friend; who was enemy. That they never did the same thing twice and they popped up out of holes/tunnels in the ground and then disappeared. I've never been in the military ... is this war w/ the evil turds over there similar to our war in Viet Nam??

yarnball
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
Posted for fair use...
http://dmm.broadchoice.com/www.johnbatchelorshow.com/whats_news_tonight/liberty/blog:4382,9530,305

Fort Apache, Afghanistan

By John Batchelor. posted on July 19, 2008 at 1:47 AM

"If you saw them, sir, they weren't Apache."

Hoping to speak on Sunday 20 to Daoud Sultanzoy, an MP of the Afghanistan Parliament from Ghanzi Province, who is inbound to Kabul. The landscape in Afghanistan is reported to be deteriorating rapidly, especially along the Pakistan border in mountainous Kunar Province (left). My best signals source reported that part of the rush by the Bush Administration to hand over Iraq to the Maliki-Sistani duet is because there needs to be a shift of combat brigades to the Pakistan border.

An Afghan source reports that the massacre of nine American soldiers and wounding of fifteen in Kunar Province in the last week, at a Forward Observation Base (FOB) that is now abandoned, was the result of deliberate arrogance by command and control, bad tactics at the FOB, and a general deafness to the locals by the NATO-American forces in the region. The U.S. Army is reported investigating the incident and reviewing the decisions made by the brigade command. This is Army speak for SNAFU, and we need a scapegoat. The report about the Kunar massacre is so alarming -- the FOB was surprised by 200 Taliban at dawn --that it reminds me immediately of John Ford's 1948 U.S. Cavalry epic, "Fort Apache," that was based loosely on Custer's defeat.

You recall that Colonel Owen Thursday (Henry Fonda), a West Point popinjay, joins his raggedy command at undermanned Fort Apache with a yearning to find glory now that the Civil War is over and the heroes of Appomattox Courthouse, such as himself, have been forgotten as relics of bad days. Thursday gets the picture wrong from the first day when he speaks disdainfully of Indian beggars at the main gate to his second in command, Captain Kirby York (John Wayne):

"We here have little chance for glory or advancement," sneers Henry Fonda. "While some of our brother officers are leading their well-publicized campaigns against the great Indian nations - the Sioux and the Cheyenne - we are asked to ward off the gnat stings and flea bites of a few cowardly 'digger Indians'."

"Your pardon, Colonel," says John Wayne. "You'd hardly call Apaches 'digger Indians', sir."

"You'd scarcely compare them with the Sioux, Captain."

"No, I don't. The Sioux once raided into Apache territory. Old-timers told me you could follow their line of retreat by the bones of their dead."

"I suggest the Apache has deteriorated since then, judging by a few of the specimens I've seen on my way out here."

John Wayne closes, "Well, if you saw them, sir, they weren't Apache."

Massacre at Kunar

My Afghan source reports that the massacre at Kunar demonstrates the same arrogance as "Fort Apache." Our brigade just recently stationed this FOB at the bottom of a valley, not on the high ground, and placed it near a village named Want that may have provided good cover to the attackers. Source reports that the Nuristani locals had long warned brigade not to place an FOB in this valley and that this decision was machismo by brigade. Source reports that the FOB relied upon signals intelligence and did not patrol aggressively. Source reports that there were warnings for days before the attack that the Taliban was mounting a force. Source reports that all or most of the nine KIA were slain at one observation post that was overrun. The FOB defenders fought off the assault. But source reports that brigade has now withdrawn all teams and the FOB is abandoned. All of these points are under investigation. What is not in dispute is that Kunar is a big talking victory in Kunar for the Taliban.

Obama Afghanistan is McCain Afghanistan

Senator Obama made heralded remarks this past week that he wanted to shut down combat operations in Iraq and shift two combat brigades to Afghanistan. (And Mr. Obama has now travelled to Kabul to meet with the Karzai cadre to start his tour of the region before going on to Europe.) John McCain has made many remarks supporting continued combat operations in Afghansitan against the Taliban and in pursuit of the Al Qaeda leadership that certain enjoys refuge along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

In sum, the 44th president of the United States is promising more of the same in Afghanistan. Despite the facts on the ground that the Konar massacre came nearly six years into the mission with no clarity of the mission and no demonstrated success.

Daoud Sultanzoy has reported on the show and in print that the Kabul government is a disgrace of graft and sloth. Daoud Sultanzoy has named President Karzai and his family as men at the center of the corruption, men who were not trained to govern to begin with and who are now the permanent, pass-the-hat government. It is grimly reminding of General Big Minh and his wormy successors at Saigon. (Is it too early to weigh who will be on the last helicopter out of Kabul?)

Ann Marlowe, who has reported on her ten trips to Afghanistan during the war, does not dispute Sultanzoy's judgment, though she does point to some success among the Afghani Army and some savvy by the NATO forces. However the prison break at Kandahar some weeks back, which Marlowe and Sultanzoy reported on air, demonstrated that the Taliban is cocky and fearless. The Canadian troops guarding Kandahar are reported to have stayed in their camp.

Colonel Thursday's Last Stand

At the climax of Fort Apache, Colonel Thursday (Henry Fonda) orders a charge of the troop mounted in fours into a trap laid by Cochise of the Apaches. York cannot stop him, not with reason or insubordination. The trap is transparent to the audience, and somehow this suggests that Thursday, though he is a knucklehead, is our knucklehead. At the same time, the men who ride behind him do not choose to die. They follow stupid orders and are forgotten afterward. At the last, York find Thursday fallen on the battlefield, somewhat back from his command, which is now surrounded in the valley. Thursday aims to die with his command, and the exchange with Captain York (John Wayne) sounds irony:

"Trouble you for your sabre, Captain," says Henry Fonda

"My sabre?" asks John Wayne.

"I must rejoin my command."

"The command is wiped out, sir, and there's nothing we can do about it."

"I'm not asking your opinion, Capt. York. When you command this regiment - and you probably will - command it! Your sabre, sir."

John Wayne hands over his sabre.

"Henry Fonda asks, "Any questions, Captain?"

John Wayne watches the doomed Thursday ride to his death. "No questions. "

Afghanistan Questions

What is the mission in Afghanistan? Why after six years is the government no more than Kabul and a few conclaves? Where are the roads? Why does Pakistan find it useful to promote the Taliban? Why are the Northwest Provinces of Pakistan in rebellion from Islamabad and from the 21st Century? Does Al Qaeda hiding in the wastes of Waziristan represent a credible threat? Who supports Al Qaeda and why? If Afghanistan is critical to the region, why aren't Iranian and Pakistani and Russian troops involved? If the Obama Administration can withdraw combat troops from Iraq and leave the disputes to Iraqis, why not leave Afghanistan's disputes to the Afghanis? And does John McCain believe the the security of the Persian Gulf depends upon the security of Kandahar, Khost, Jalalabad, the Khyber Pass?

Did the security of the United States of America in 1876 depend upon containing the Sioux, the Cheyenne, the Apache? It did? Did Captain York think so when he took command of the the troop (right)? Did Colonel Thursday deserve to die for his blindness? None is so blind who will not.... JB.
 

night driver

ESFP adrift in INTJ sea
this last article conflicts with a post from an a-i-g troop I read on another forum, which I won't cross-post here.

the analysis is innacurate.
 

Housecarl

On TB every waking moment
this last article conflicts with a post from an a-i-g troop I read on another forum, which I won't cross-post here.

the analysis is innacurate.

Yeah, I looked at the replies to that piece and the author also made note that the information he referenced to write the piece has been conflicted with newer information.
 
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