LEGAL Felons use gun ruling to challenge bans

Dornroeschen

Inactive
Felons use gun ruling to challenge bans
Supreme Court decision spawns new lines of attack on firearms laws
The Associated Press
updated 11:30 p.m. CT, Sat., July. 19, 2008

WASHINGTON - Twice convicted of felonies, James Francis Barton Jr. faces charges of violating a federal law barring felons from owning guns after police found seven pistols, three shotguns and five rifles at his home south of Pittsburgh.

As a defense, Barton and several other defendants in federal gun cases argue that last month's Supreme Court ruling allows them to keep loaded handguns at home for self-defense.

"Felons, such as Barton, have the need and the right to protect themselves and their families by keeping firearms in their home," says David Chontos, Barton's court-appointed lawyer.

Chontos and other criminal defense lawyers say the high court's decision means federal laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of people convicted of felonies and crimes of domestic violence are unconstitutional as long as the weapons are needed for self-defense.

So far, federal judges uniformly have agreed these restrictions are unchanged by the Supreme Court's landmark interpretation of the Second Amendment.

"The line I'm proposing, at the home, is entirely consistent" with the Supreme Court ruling, said Chontos, a lawyer in Turtle Creek, Pa. A court hearing on the issue is scheduled for late July.

New angle of attack
The legal attacks by Chontos and other criminal defense lawyers are separate from civil lawsuits by the National Rifle Association and others challenging handgun bans in Chicago and its suburbs as well as a total ban on guns in public housing units in San Francisco.

People on both sides of the gun control issue say they expect numerous attacks against local, state and federal laws based on the high court's 5-4 ruling that struck down the District of Columbia's ban on handguns. The opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia also suggested, however, that many gun control measures could remain in place.

Denis Henigan, vice president for law and policy at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said Scalia essentially was reassuring people that the laws keeping guns from felons and people with mental illness and out of government buildings and schools would withstand challenges. But Henigan said he is not surprised by felons pressing for gun-ownership rights.

"The court has cast us into uncharted waters here. There is no question about that," Henigan said.

"There is now uncertainty where there was none before," he said. "Gun laws were routinely upheld and they were considered policy issues to be decided by legislatures."

At the Justice Department, spokesman Erik Ablin said the agency's lawyers "will continue to defend vigorously the constitutionality, under the Second Amendment, of all federal firearms laws and will respond to particular challenges in court."

City bans most vulnerable
Cities' outright bans on handguns probably are the most vulnerable laws following the Supreme Court ruling. Many lawyers and Second Amendment experts believe that restrictions on gun ownership in public housing also will be difficult to defend.

The question for courts will be whether the government has more power when it acts as a landlord, as it does in public housing, than in general.

"I think there's a very substantial chance that these kinds of ordinances will be struck down because they are aimed at people who have shown no reason to be viewed as untrustworthy," said Eugene Volokh, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, who has written about gun rights.

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom has said the city will defend the policy as good for public safety. "Is there anyone out there who really believes that we need more guns in public housing?" Newsom said when the suit was filed a day after the Supreme Court ruled on Washington's handgun ban.

In the District of Columbia, the city housing authority is considering whether its prohibition on firearms in public housing can survive the court ruling, spokeswoman Dena Michaelson said.

But Volokh and some gun rights proponents said people convicted of crimes are less likely to succeed in their challenges.

"Many felons may need self defense more than you and I, but the government has extra justification for limiting that right because they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy," Volokh said.

A gun for Scooter Libby?
Judges may find it harder to resolve cases in which nonviolent criminals, particularly those whose only offense happened long ago, are charged with gun possession.

"Do you think Scooter Libby should have a gun?" asked Douglas Berman, a law professor at Ohio State University who says the ruling will complicate the work of the courts, prosecutors and police. He was referring to former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who was convicted of perjury, obstruction and lying to the FBI in the CIA leak investigation.

A more plausible case for being allowed a gun might be made by someone now in his 50s or 60s who was convicted as a teenager of taking a car for a joyride, said Stephen P. Halbrook, a gun rights supporter and lawyer. "You might have a court look at that differently," Halbrook said.

The Supreme Court has a case on its calendar for the fall that could indicate whether the justices are inclined to expand their ruling.

In United States v. Hayes, the government is asking the court to reinstate a conviction for possession of a gun for someone previously convicted of a domestic violence crime. In 1994, Randy Hayes received a year of probation after pleading guilty to beating his wife.

The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the conviction because the West Virginia law Hayes violated does not specifically deal with domestic violence crimes. The question for the high court, then, is a technical one: whether the law has to include domestic violence to be used in the future to prevent someone from owning guns?

Advocates on both sides of the gun control debate will be watching closely to see whether the court's D.C. decision is relevant to the Hayes case and, if so, how.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25753541/
 

Hacker

Computer Hacking Pirate
I believe it is unconstitutional to restrict convicted felons, who have served their sentence(s), from owning firearms.

Likewise, I believe it is wrong to restrict "mentally ill" people from owning guns.

JMHO . . .
 

Thomas Paine

Has No Life - Lives on TB
I believe it is unconstitutional to restrict convicted felons, who have served their sentence(s), from owning firearms.

Likewise, I believe it is wrong to restrict "mentally ill" people from owning guns.

JMHO . . .

WHAT HE SAID.
 

Desertrat

Inactive
FWIW, Texas law allowed a felon to have a gun at home for self-defense. Federal law pre-empted that.

BATFE has the authority to review people's felony convictions, and allow possession. However, they don't request any budget money for that, and they therefore take no action on applications.
 

Scotsman

Inactive
I believe it is unconstitutional to restrict convicted felons, who have served their sentence(s), from owning firearms.
Likewise, I believe it is wrong to restrict "mentally ill" people from owning guns.
JMHO . . .

I agree with ye that a felon who has served their' time should be allowed to own a firearm. However, I must STRONGLY disagree on letting "mentally ill" people own guns. That's just asking for a violent crime to be committed.
 

gonewacky

Veteran Member
If anyone should have a gun it should be a vet. It has been a long time since the Vietnam war, and a lot of them with PTS are out there with guns. There crazy you know. You can have my crazy PTS gun when you pry it from my cold dead hand. I fought for that right and I’m keeping it.

There is a civil war coming you know. I will need it more than ever then. If for nothing else, to save a bunch of dumb a** sheep.
 

Hacker

Computer Hacking Pirate
I agree with ye that a felon who has served their' time should be allowed to own a firearm. However, I must STRONGLY disagree on letting "mentally ill" people own guns. That's just asking for a violent crime to be committed.

And who gets to say who is mentally ill ??

I submit that the people in the BATFE are mentally ill, since they seek to perpetuate unconstitutional laws and maintain control (as the jack-booted thugs that they are) over those who have harmed no one.
 

The Freeholder

Inactive
If a felon has done his time, then their rights ought to be restored. If their crime was so bad that their rights should be taken forever, then why are they walking the streets?

The mentally ill, however, is going to be a very different subject. How you work out the rules I don't know, but I know that your average schizophrenic most likely doesn't need a gun. However, someone who sought counseling for marital problems or something similar should be in the clear. Where the line gets drawn between the extremes is more a matter for angels than men, I suspect.
 

Doc1

Has No Life - Lives on TB
Thank you all!

Thank you all for showing a little sanity on this subject...and NO, I am not a felon ;-) I have maintained for decades that after a felon has served his entire sentence - to include parole - ALL rights should be restored. Otherwise, you are effectively condemning convicted felons to at least partial life sentences and this does nothing to reduce recidivism.

Also, in truth, a lot of "felonies" are actually pretty trifling, small-time crimes. If the truth be known, a hell of a lot of felonies are the result of blatently unconstitutional laws in the first place.

Best regards
Doc
 

Malone Laveigh

Inactive
If you can't be trusted with a gun, you can't be trusted without a custodian. That being said, I fully expected something along these lines by the anti-gunners as far as a refined view of Heller. It's no surprise they weren't happy about it, so IMO they'll be trying any and everything to get the issue back in front of SCOTUS.



Malone
 

Troke

Deceased
I am with you on felons that have servied their time. Although you should be aware that 1/75 of people in slammer for murder are there for their second murder. So there is a problem with that.

Mentally ill? First time one of them goes postal and wastes a bunch of people and it turns out it was 'known' he was nuts but had a constitutional right to possess his personal Schmeisser, we can kiss our 2nd Amendment Rights goodby.

Believe it.

BTW, the legal term mentally ill means to me that there was some sort of civil action where the patient had counsel to defend the finding. Rubber stamps ain't good enough. But I suppose we can expect all kinds of bullsh*t from the MSM that the 19 killer perp was "known" to have mental problems but the gun dealer had to sell him the gun anyway.
 

Christian for Israel

Knight of Jerusalem
I believe it is unconstitutional to restrict convicted felons, who have served their sentence(s), from owning firearms.

Likewise, I believe it is wrong to restrict "mentally ill" people from owning guns.

JMHO . . .

absolutely.

troke, the problem is that 'mental illness' is entirely subjective, even among psychologists. there is no way to legally define it when every so called 'expert' has his own definition. consider that many psychologists consider merely the DESIRE to own a gun sufficient proof of being mentally ill and you will see the problem. consider that a couple hundred years ago mental illness was virtually unknown but demon possession WAS understood. the two are actually quite similar legally. so, should we restrict gun ownership based on a pastor's claim that someone is possessed or some secular humanist priest's (psychologist) claim of mental illness?

as for those who really are unstable...if they're so dangerous they are probably already incarcerated and if they aren't, then likely they aren't known and therefore still have legal access to guns (not to mention that they always will have access to ILLEGAL guns).

disallowing gun ownership due to mental illness isn't about keeping guns away from the unstable, it's all about using a loophole in the law to prevent ordinary citizens from exercising their rights.
 

rhughe13

Heart of Dixie
Thank you all for showing a little sanity on this subject...and NO, I am not a felon ;-) I have maintained for decades that after a felon has served his entire sentence - to include parole - ALL rights should be restored. Otherwise, you are effectively condemning convicted felons to at least partial life sentences and this does nothing to reduce recidivism.

Also, in truth, a lot of "felonies" are actually pretty trifling, small-time crimes. If the truth be known, a hell of a lot of felonies are the result of blatently unconstitutional laws in the first place.

Best regards
Doc

:applaud: +1 for each paragraph
 

Conrad Nimikos

Who is Henry Bowman
I agree that after having served their ime their right to self defense should be returned. I also think that if their crime involved violence or the use of a weapon they should be required to only own registered guns. This is the only situation I would agree to registration.
 

Troke

Deceased
"...troke, the problem is that 'mental illness' is entirely subjective, even among psychologists. there is no way to legally define it when every so called 'expert' has his own definition. consider that many psychologists consider merely the DESIRE to own a gun sufficient proof of being mentally ill and you will see the problem..."

My position, as written above;
"...the legal term mentally ill means to me that there was some sort of civil action where the patient had counsel to defend the finding. Rubber stamps ain't good enough. But I suppose we can expect all kinds of bullsh*t from the MSM that the 19 killer perp was "known" to have mental problems but the gun dealer had to sell him the gun anyway. .."

I still hold it. The VA Tech killer was so off the rails that even the professors noticed it. Them people is what I am talking about.
 

Publius

On TB every waking moment
I believe it is unconstitutional to restrict convicted felons, who have served their sentence(s), from owning firearms.

Likewise, I believe it is wrong to restrict "mentally ill" people from owning guns.

JMHO . . .

I have to say your right and our founders never meant making someone a second class Citizens for such crimes, that was to be used only on people convicted of treason of a lesser degree! Accessory to the fact.
 

mcchrystal

Inactive
I agree with ye that a felon who has served their' time should be allowed to own a firearm. However, I must STRONGLY disagree on letting "mentally ill" people own guns. That's just asking for a violent crime to be committed.

Sorry, Scottie, but you're just plain wrong.

Why? Because it's stunningly easy to label (and in many cases, mislabel
and misdiagnose) mental illness - And it's been done here in the US and
in most semideveloped nations since time immemorial.

The Soviets were true champions in "diagnosing" dissenters and "suspending"
their rights as citizens.

And it can (and very likely will) happen here in America.

-Steve in Burbank
 

Harbinger

Veteran Member
That is why felons are allowed go before the court to partition to have their rights restored. Other wise to allow every felon who has served their time to be given their rights back automatically is a dangerous thing.


:popcorn1:
 

Cardinal

Chickministrator
_______________
That is why felons are allowed go before the court to partition to have their rights restored. Other wise to allow every felon who has served their time to be given their rights back automatically is a dangerous thing.


:popcorn1:

They shouldn't have to partition (or Petition either) to have their rights restored. It should be automatic, and Florida just passed a law automatically restoring voting rights because they agree and understand that.
Restoring gun rights is next.
And keep in mind, for those with "connections" (think Patty Hearst) it was never a problem anyway. It is only a problem for regular nobodies.
All of which is moot, because come the s hitting the fan, the gov will not be able to control who has or does what anyway.
 
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