Bush hails Israel's "chosen people"

Desperado

Membership Revoked
Maybe Bush needs to run for President of Israel, since he seems to think that country in more important than the US.

Bush hails Israel's "chosen people" as Arabs lament By Matt Spetalnick and Tabassum Zakaria
Thu May 15, 1:40 PM ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080515/ts_nm/palestinians_israel_nakba_dc_4


JERUSALEM (Reuters) - President George W. Bush told Israelis on Thursday they were a "chosen people" who can forever count on American support against enemies like Hamas and Iran.
On a day when Palestinians remembered homes and land lost as Israel was created in 1948, Bush made only fleeting reference to their aspirations for a state of their own in a speech marking Israel's 60th anniversary that was laced with references to God.

Basking in ovations on the second day of a farewell visit to a country where his presidency is hailed as a golden age, Bush again said little of the talks he has sponsored in recent months between Israel and the Palestinians, which he hopes can bring a deal on a Palestinian state before he leaves office in January.

Speaking of the "promise of God" for a "homeland for the chosen people" in Israel, Bush told the Israeli parliament after a visit to the Roman-era Jewish fortress at Masada: "Masada shall never fall again, and America will always stand with you."

He predicted the defeat of Islamist enemies Hamas, Hezbollah and al Qaeda in a "battle of good and evil."

Letting Iran have nuclear weapons would be an "unforgivable betrayal of future generations," he said. By comparing talking with such foes to appeasement of Hitler, he sparked a debate at home among those campaigning to succeed him as president.

Bush described the "bonds of the Book" -- faith in the Bible shared by Christians like himself and Jews -- as bolstering an "unbreakable" alliance between Israel and the United States.

Of the Palestinians, half of whom were pushed into exile to make way for the Jewish state, Bush said that, looking ahead another 60 years in the future, "the Palestinian people will have the homeland they have long dreamed of and deserved."

"SLAP IN THE FACE"

The president's language in Israel has dismayed Palestinians looking for the U.S. superpower to mediate in their negotiations with Israel. Islamist Hamas, which spurns such talks, said Bush sounded "like a priest or a rabbi" and had delivered a "slap in the face" to those Palestinians who placed their hopes in him.

Bush said: "Some people suggest that if the United States would just break ties with Israel, all our problems in the Middle East would go away ... America utterly rejects it."

In scattered protests marking the anniversary of Israel's first day of statehood on May 15, 1948, Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip threw rocks towards Israeli police and troops, who fired tear gas and bullets in the air.

In a speech marking what Palestinians call the "Nakba," or catastrophe, when some 700,000 Arabs fled or were forced from their homes during Israel's foundation, President Mahmoud Abbas said: "Isn't it time for Israel to respond to the call of a just and comprehensive peace and achieve historic reconciliation between the two peoples on this sacred and tortured land?"

But Palestinian political analyst Ali Jarbawi said Bush's rhetoric showed Washington was not being an honest broker: "He is not talking about a two-state solution. He is talking about a state of leftovers for the Palestinians," Jarbawi said.

Arabs are especially sensitive to what they see as amnesia, or worse, among Israelis and foreigners about how many of them were forced into exile in 1948. By saying Jewish "refugees arrived here in the desert," Bush may have done little to persuade many Palestinians their own refugees are not forgotten.

Amid the standing ovations that have followed him since he arrived in Israel on Wednesday, there was some discord.

Three Arab members of Israel's parliament held up a sign reading "We shall overcome" and were escorted out of the Knesset chamber as Bush began to speak.

"HOPEFUL" ON DEAL

Asked about Bush's speech, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said the president was "hopeful" a deal could be struck by the time he leaves office.

In Ramallah in the West Bank, pedestrians stood at attention as sirens wailed for two minutes to remember the Nakba.

Calling Bush "the leader of evil in the world," Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri said the group would never grow weak.

At Masada, a cable car carried Bush high above the Dead Sea to the plateau where, according to a Roman-era historian, 960 Jewish men, women and children committed suicide rather than surrender to Roman legions crushing a rebellion.

There have been few signs of progress in U.S.-brokered negotiations since promises were made at a peace conference in Annapolis, Maryland, in November.

In the latest setback to a deal, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said he will quit if indicted in a police corruption probe. The split between Abbas and Hamas and fighting between Israel and Hamas in Gaza have also hampered peace efforts.

On Friday, Bush and his wife Laura will wind up their visit to Jerusalem and fly on to Saudi Arabia before weekend talks in Egypt with Abbas and other Arab leaders.

(Additional reporting by Jeffrey Heller and Brenda Gazzar in Jerusalem, Mohammed Assadi and Ali Sawafta in Ramallah, Haitham Tamimi in Hebron and Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza, writing by Alastair Macdonald; Editing by Elizabeth Piper)
 

deja

Inactive
Maybe Bush needs to run for President of Israel, since he seems to think that country in more important than the US.

Desperado, I have said the same thing lately...........:whistle:
 

von Koehler

** In Timeout **
Some questions (and no, I am not trolling because I really don't know the answers):

1. Is it true that Jews consider themselves the "chosen" by god?

2. Is it true that a non-Jew (by birth or upbringing) can convert to being a Jew?

3. Is the converted Jew as equally "chosen" by god?

4. What do Jews consider non-Jews (everyone else) to be if they are by definition not "chosen"?

5. Actually, what does being "chosen" really mean?

6. What happens to non-Jews?

Flavius Aetius
 

KateCanada

Inactive
Some questions (and no, I am not trolling because I really don't know the answers):

1. Is it true that Jews consider themselves the "chosen" by god?

2. Is it true that a non-Jew (by birth or upbringing) can convert to being a Jew?

3. Is the converted Jew as equally "chosen" by god?

4. What do Jews consider non-Jews (everyone else) to be if they are by definition not "chosen"?

5. Actually, what does being "chosen" really mean?

6. What happens to non-Jews?

Flavius Aetius


It goes all the way back to Abraham. The Jews are descendants of Abraham’s son Isaac.

You can read what it all means here FA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion
 

von Koehler

** In Timeout **
I skimmed your wiki reference but I don't see the answers to my specific questions.

I would prefer to have a Jew answer this directly.

Flavius Aetius
 

Desperado

Membership Revoked
It goes all the way back to Abraham. The Jews are descendants of Abraham’s son Isaac.

You can read what it all means here FA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

The Old Covenant, which gave conditional promises to the Jewish people IF they KEPT the covenant, has been destroyed. It was destroyed by THEM when they killed the One Who was the Head of their covenant, thus making a relationship with God impossible. One does not murder one’s Spouse and then still have a marriage (Ezek. 16:8). Yet the Bible thumpers like John Hagee keep pounding away at promises which were CONDITIONAL AND WHICH WERE BROKEN.
 

Rattlehead

did someone say BBQ?
I skimmed your wiki reference but I don't see the answers to my specific questions.

I would prefer to have a Jew answer this directly.

Flavius Aetius

Silly Goyim, that is not for you to know!
orth.gif
 

Fred's Horseradish

Membership Revoked
The Old Covenant, which gave conditional promises to the Jewish people IF they KEPT the covenant, has been destroyed. It was destroyed by THEM when they killed the One Who was the Head of their covenant, thus making a relationship with God impossible. One does not murder one’s Spouse and then still have a marriage (Ezek. 16:8). Yet the Bible thumpers like John Hagee keep pounding away at promises which were CONDITIONAL AND WHICH WERE BROKEN.

Silly Goyim, that is not for you to know!
orth.gif

Agree with both. As a believer in Jesus, I am chosen. It appears most white Jews, (hook nose) are fr NE Europe, SW Asia. It's the shepardic that are true Jews. It doesn't matter, the earth is the Lord's and fullness thereof.

It also appears, that at Pilate's judgement (Jn 19) when the mob cried crucify Him, crucify Him (gave Him the middle finger) that folks, is where the paths parted. Those who followed Jesus (jews & nonjews alike) continued as Israel, the others wondered into darkness to this day. Israel's future is not good. Pray that more Jews will see in Jesus their only hope, not Israel.
 

von Koehler

** In Timeout **
Agree with both. As a believer in Jesus, I am chosen. It appears most white Jews, (hook nose) are fr NE Europe, SW Asia. It's the shepardic that are true Jews. It doesn't matter, the earth is the Lord's and fullness thereof.

It also appears, that at Pilate's judgement (Jn 19) when the mob cried crucify Him, crucify Him (gave Him the middle finger) that folks, is where the paths parted. Those who followed Jesus (jews & nonjews alike) continued as Israel, the others wondered into darkness to this day. Israel's future is not good. Pray that more Jews will see in Jesus their only hope, not Israel.

This doesn't answer my questions....and it's way too weird.

Flavius Aetius
 

buff

Deceased
"Isn't it time for Israel to respond to the call of a just and comprehensive peace and achieve historic reconciliation between the two peoples on this sacred and tortured land?"

yep...just as soon as one of the two parties involved stops lobbing rockets at the side that is trying to achieve a solution...and if they didn't have walls blocking off the terrs..there would be people blown to bits in buses and cafes...

why does common sense alluded you Israel haters?
 

von Koehler

** In Timeout **
6. What happens to non-Jews?

They are called antisemites.

Ed

Do you understand what the words "happens" and "non" means? Your reply doesn't make any sense.

Still waiting for a Jew to answer these questions.

Flavius Aetius
 

ofuzzy1

Just Visiting
NOTE: I will probably not be reading this thread after posting this. I'm sure #2 will cause this thread become a troll fest.

Flavius Aetius: Good questions. My questions are strictly rhetorical.

1. Is it true that Jews consider themselves the "chosen" by G-d?
Yes.
see #5 for more detail.


2. Is it true that a non-Jew (by birth or upbringing) can convert to being a Jew?
Yes and so are your children.

Something that Despo / Patrick and his ilk can't wrap their minds around. :stfu:
e.g. It appears most white Jews, (hook nose) are fr NE Europe, SW Asia. It's the shepardic that are true Jews.

Following this line of thought: So the who are the true Christians? ... the Sephardic Jews who 'converted'.

Caveat: Orthodox Jews only those who were converted under an Orthodox Rabbi's supervision. They also don't approve of Jews who follow the Reform / Progressive or Conservative tenants.
Similar issues as the Catholics/ Protestants / Baptists / Mormons / Seventh Day Adventists / Jehovah Witnesses.
... Mine is better than yours. Neener, neener :shk:



3. Is the converted Jew as equally "chosen" by G-d?
Yes. -- IMNSHO more so you chose and worked to do so.
Is a Christian Convert any less Saved?
- You do fully accept Christian Converts, don't you??



4. What do Jews consider non-Jews (everyone else) to be if they are by definition not "chosen"?
How do Christians view non believers? The level of feelings vary.
I had a friend who stopped being a friend because he became a Born-Again and could not deal with the fact that I chose a different path.

I have been shunned by Hasidim [Orthodox^nth power] in my own neighborhood.
I reminded him that my Great-Aunt's & Uncle's were murdered along with his in Russia and Germany - Who was he to think I was any less than him? Now we periodically have great discussions.

We all chose our own path. Choice is the gift we received from our Creator

And that is the most important point

-- Most Jews don't preach, because we know how it feels to have it done to us.

... Yes, we're a minority and we accept that.
Just respect us as you wish to be respected.


5. Actually, what does being "chosen" really mean?
Responsibility to follow the 613 Mitzvoht [~rules / laws]. Israel means to struggle with G-d.

Sometimes I think it means: Pogroms, Purges, ... Pain.
It means you will have your mettle tested.
As a wee tot I asked my Mom why the store had a Sign: No Dogs or Jews.
As a tween I was asked at camp: Where are your Horns.
I've been denied jobs.
[Added:] Dating: I don't want Jewish babies.


An olde Yiddish commentary: So, if this what it feels like to be chosen, let someone else enjoy this for a while.

The Pharaohs, Greeks, Romans, Czars, Nazis, [added: USSR - Lenin & Stalin] has tried to kill us off, we have survived, they have perished. Somebody BIG must be on our side against such determined foes.


6. What happens to non-Jews?
We all chose our own path. Choice is the gift we received from our Creator.
I'll see you in heaven when the time is right -- let's not rush it.


Jehovah Witnesses claim to be the chosen people, where's the beef about them?
Born-Again's claim to be the the only one's who will be saved, where's the beef about them?
 
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ofuzzy1

Just Visiting
What does it mean to be a Christian?

There is a broad spectrum of Christian folks: From the nicest to those who aren't even close.

We all struggle with being the best we can be.
Some give up, while others are doing their very best and succeeding .
And some who are still come up short.

Encouragement is your job, judgment is not -- Judgment is reserved for our Creator.
--- I certainly respect your wise choice to avoid toxic people.

Choose wisely, that is all anyone can ask.
 
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von Koehler

** In Timeout **
ofuzzy1:

Thanks for your reply; that's what I was seeking. The questions weren't meant to be "trick questions". You answered them directly. Unless there are other Jews who wish to add other points? Like what is a "Sephardic Jew" and how are they different from other Jews? Am I correct in deducing that "Hasidim [Orthodox^nth power]" Jews consider themselves even more Jewish then other Jews? On what basis?

Flavius Aetius
 

The Cub

Behold, I am coming soon.
Actually, what does being "chosen" really mean?


God the Father entered into a number of covenants with the Jews in the Old Testament. One is that they were the chosen race from which the Savior would come forth.

That covenant was realized in the birth and death of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ set up the New and Everlasting Covenant at the Last Supper with His followers.

When He expired on the cross we see evidence of the transference of the presence of God from the synagogue to the Church in the tearing of the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the people.

http://www.call2holiness.org/ReconstructionoftheTemple/ReconstructionoftheTemple.htm

Yes, the Jews still consider themselves to be chosen, because they do not recognize the truth in that Jesus is the Christ.

The term 'Israel' in many place in the Bible refers to "the people of God". The Church is the 'New Israel'. ;)

The sad thing is how many fools do not see that, and still want our sons and daughters to die protecting the Jews at all costs. :shr:
 

TECH32

Inactive
ofuzzy1 gave a pretty good synopsis.

Sephardic Jews are generally from Spain and Portugal while Ashkenazi Jews are typically from Eastern Europe (although DNA testing from both groups show common semetic origins in the Middle East).

Hasidim are ultra-orthodox, and the word literally means "Pious Ones". They tend to look at anyone who isn't Hasid as being not Jewish. Hasidim are the Jews you see wearing the black hats and coats.

Orthodox Jews strictly follow Jewish Law, just without all the "extras" that Hasidim impose upon themselves. They keep kosher at all times and observe the sabbath. They also wear Peyos (side curls) and yarlmukas (skull caps).

Conservatives follow most Jewish Law (they'll keep Kosher in the house, but eat out at non-kosher restaurants). They typically also follow the sabbath and wear yarlmukas.

All of these groups are usually very conservative politically.

Reform Jews are typically the most liberal, both when it comes to observance of Jewish Law, and politics in general. They eat non-kosher foods and most don't observe the sabbath. Few (other than Rabbis) wear yarlmukas.

But understand that these are not hard and fast lines drawn in stone. I know Reform Jews who keep kosher at home and have sabbath dinners (but don't observe the rest of the sabbath) and I know Conservative Jews who don't keep kosher at all (home or in restaurants). People gravitate to whatever aspects of the faith seem right to them.

Reform Jews believe that being a Jew is "in the heart". It's about how you live your life and treat your fellow man. It's about following the intent of Jewish Law without having to live by the letter of the law. Take Tzedakah (charity) for example. Tzedakah is a pillar of Jewish faith. Reform Jews know this, they feel it in their hearts, and it's why there's almost as many Jewish charities in this country as there are Jews.

None of this matter to the Hasidim though. If you don't follow all Jewish Laws, then you aren't a Jew. Same thing with lineage. Reform Jews accept children who have Jewish fathers but non-Jewish mothers if the the children are raised Jewish. Conservative and Orthodox do not (they require a "formal" conversion, and even then the ultra-orthodox don't accept the children).

Hope this helps to clear things up for you.
 
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von Koehler

** In Timeout **
ofuzzy1 gave a pretty good synopsis.

snip

Hope this helps to clear things up for you.

Yes, thanks. But I can also see how a religion which considers its members solely to be the "chosen of god" (and by implication, thereby excluding all others), might seriously piss off the other religions. And I can see how Jews do not appreciate some Christian sects "revising" Jewish beliefs to fit their particular religious agenda.

Flavius Aetius
 

TECH32

Inactive
Yes, thanks. But I can also see how a religion which considers its members solely to be the "chosen of god" (and by implication, thereby excluding all others), might seriously piss off the other religions.

No more so than a religion that preaches the only way to heaven is by accepting "their" saviour as the son of God.

Flavius Aetius said:
And I can see how Jews do not appreciate some Christian sects "revising" Jewish beliefs to fit their particular religious agenda.

Quite true.
 

ofuzzy1

Just Visiting
You're quite welcome Flavius.

-- There can't be only one pathway! Too many choices. G-d wants us to return, so any path home is just that: a path home.


Me thinks: The Golden Rule is the best summary of the way.

Tech32: Thanks for the clarifying the details, after Midnite things get muddled.
 

Desperado

Membership Revoked
Not sure how this thread got off track.. but it was about Bush calling Israel the "Chosen" people. I just think the President of the USA to think of his countrymen as the "chosen" people. That should be his main responsibility and that should be where all his attention should be. If he believes what he says he should move there.
It is like people of one religion calling members of another religion "God's Chosen" peopel. I that is the case, whystay in the religin you are in. Join the group that you think are God's chosen. If you don't that would seem very hypocritical.
 

von Koehler

** In Timeout **
Not sure how this thread got off track.. but it was about Bush calling Israel the "Chosen" people. I just think the President of the USA to think of his countrymen as the "chosen" people. That should be his main responsibility and that should be where all his attention should be.

Sorry. I have been wondering what this "chosen by god" meant for awhile.

Flavius Aetius
 
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