What if gas cost $10 a gallon?

Martin

Deceased
What if gas cost $10 a gallon?

Forget pizza delivery. And cheap airfares. And bottled water. In fact, forget a way of life that looks much like today's. But would that be so bad?

By Shirley Skeel
Editor's note: This is one in an occasional series of financial what-ifs.

In four years, U.S. gas prices have doubled to more than $3.70 a gallon, and crude oil has tripled to around $125 a barrel. Allowing for inflation, that's higher than prices were during the 1978–83 oil shock that triggered a recession and sky-high interest rates. But . . .

What if gas cost $10 a gallon?

Thousands of truckers would go bankrupt. Airplanes would sit idle in hangars. Restaurants and stores would shut down. Car-pooling, hybrid vehicles, scooters and inline skates would swing into vogue. And telecommuting, rooftop vegetable gardens, home cooking and recycling would proliferate.



Yes, it would be painful. At $10 a gallon, filling a Ford Explorer could cost $225. Even gassing up a Honda Civic could set you back $132.

And suddenly the bus wouldn't look so bad.

A large recession, not a depression
According to Todd Hale, a senior vice president for consumer researcher Nielsen, at $10 a gallon, the average family's gas bill would leap from 16% of its retail spending to about 40%. People would drive less, yes. But many have to drive to work or the supermarket, and they'd cough up the cash -- screaming all the way -- and cut back elsewhere.



Businesses and farmers, meantime, would be squeezed as the costs of transport, petrochemical fertilizers and plastics rose. If an oil shock came quickly, sending gas to $10 a gallon and oil to roughly $350 a barrel, the chain reaction of spiraling prices and sliced consumer demand would hit us hard.


"It would be a large recession, not a depression," says Michael Englund, the chief economist for Action Economics in Boulder, Colo. That would mean tight budgets and unemployment until the economy adapted and growth returned.


.
Here are some likely effects:

Consumer spending on eating out, clothing, electronics, vacations and other little luxuries would fall sharply. A Nielsen study found that even at recent gas prices, 41% of consumers were eating out less. In total, 18% of those surveyed were cutting spending to a "great degree." That would bruise companies such as Applebee's, Macy's, Gap, Best Buy and others. But discount retailers, particularly those selling food and gas, could do relatively well. Think Costco, Wal-Mart and McDonald's.

We'd see "a lot of parked planes," says Bill Swelbar, an air transport engineer for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The U.S. airline industry pays out $465 million in fuel costs for every $1 rise in oil. At $350-a-barrel oil, the industry would pay more than $100 billion extra, almost as much as last year's total airfare sales. Even if airlines ratcheted up fares 50%, half of their airplanes would be grounded because they'd be too expensive to fly, Swelbar reckons.

Many independent truckers, who pay for their own fuel, would go bankrupt as their costs soared and shippers switched to barges and trains. Taxis and FedEx would be strictly for the well-heeled. And home pizza deliveries would cease. Pizza delivery drivers also pay for their own gas. "It'd be brutal," says Joseph Miller, an assistant manager at a Domino's Pizza in Seattle. "I would think we wouldn't have any drivers."

Food prices could jump by a third or more, experts estimate. About 80 cents of the $4.50 retail cost of a box of cornflakes goes to transport it, says Dan Basse, the president of AgResource, a Chicago research company. On top of that, there's the cost of fertilizers to grow the corn and diesel for farm equipment. In 2005, transportation and energy made up 8.5% of all retail food costs, but energy was far cheaper then. As $10 gas pushed up food prices, pinched consumers would give up pricey fresh meat and vegetables for cheap pastas and oils. Ranchers and dairies with energy-hungry milking barns would struggle. And cities might sprout to life as people planted vegetable gardens on their roofs and balconies and in vacant lots.

Plastics for appliances, packaging, pacemakers and myriad other products would jump in price as the natural gas that plastic is made with rose in value alongside oil. Bill Wood, the president of Mountaintop Economics and Research in Massachusetts, says shoppers would have a choice: "Paper or paper?" Small plastic bottles of water would disappear. Glass and metal containers would make a comeback. And recycling would explode. Families might even have nine bins in the hall to separate their trash, as they do in Japan, where consumer recycling tops 90%.



Economists say oil prices could continue to surge in the next two years, with prices as high as $5.60 a gallon at the gas pump possible.

As drivers began to switch to 100-mile-per-gallon plug-in hybrid cars (already expected to launch by 2010), the electricity grid could come under strain. Theoretically, if everyone had one and plugged it in at night, the grid could handle 84% of the nation's car fleet. But to avoid the risk of city brownouts, the grid capacity would have to rise. Solar, wave and wind power would ramp up. Giant solar thermal power plants, which use mirrors to concentrate the sun's energy, would be built. But in the rush to get power, we'd probably also step up the use of cheap, dirty coal (50% of our electricity generation now). Even nuclear power (21%) could be considered anew.

Resistance to drilling for oil in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and off California would shrink. Environmentalists might stand their ground. But as James Williams, an energy economist for WTRG Economics in Arkansas, says, "Let's put it this way: Y'all wanna drive?" Oil reserves in both areas are thought to be more than 10 billion barrels, double the proven reserves in Texas. That would help feed America's 21-million-barrel-a-day appetite.

Continued: It might be good in the long run




After the hurt, some benefits
There'd be other ramifications, too. The federal government's deficit would balloon as it paid for energy incentives and social welfare. We could even see civil unrest as the poor scrambled to survive.

Suburbanites would crowd into urban town houses to avoid costly commutes, and working from home would become common. Eventually, public transportation might even improve.

Some of these things, such as small cars and excellent public transportation, are already entrenched in Europe and Japan. Gas prices there are the equivalent of $8 to $10 a gallon, largely because of high taxes. They live with it. We could, too.

In the longer term, we might even be better off.

As the economy adjusted to functioning with new energy sources and more-efficient energy use, jobs in engineering, science, alternative energy and conservation would boom.



Matthew Simmons, the founder of investment bank Simmons & Company International in Houston, says he thinks a good slice of the hundreds of billions of dollars that would flow to oil-producing nations would filter back to the U.S. He believes the oil industry infrastructure is aging and America would be called on to help.

"We'd have a more engineer, blue-collar, scientific world, versus the Starbucks, high-tech business that we've been in," he says. Not to mention that America's Achilles' heel -- its dependency on foreign oil for 60% of its needs -- would finally have a remedy. A painful one, but effective.

Will gas cost $10 a gallon anytime soon?
It's unlikely, though short-term expectations of $4 or even $5 gas this year are increasingly common.

But most oil specialists believe that in the near term, $10 gas couldn't happen -- or that if oil hit $350 a barrel through some Middle East disaster, it would be short-lived. They say demand would fall sharply, bringing oil prices back down. Adam Sieminski, the chief energy economist with Deutsche Bank in Washington, D.C., puts the probability at less than 3%.

Richard Heinberg, a senior fellow at the nonprofit Post Carbon Institute in Sebastopol, Calif., disagrees. He believes it could happen within five years (of course, $10 likely would be worth less then).

More than half of the world's oil producers, including the U.S., Britain, Mexico, Venezuela and Russia, are seeing production decline, Heinberg says. Meanwhile, demand is growing at 1.5% to 2% a year. Heinberg says the OPEC countries need their reserves to meet booming demand at home and that at some point, oil will become scarce.

The result: Prices will shoot up.

Published May 16, 2008



http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co...r/WhatIfGasCost10DollarsAGallon.aspx?page=all
 

Green

Paranoid in Los Angeles
At $10/gal I will ride my Harley to work and have my cleaning delivered once a week to the office to change into.
 

Dennis Olson

Chief Curmudgeon
_______________
At that price the US economy would completely implode. The Great Depression would be a walk in the park compared to what would happen. Anyone that thinks otherwise is completely delusional.
 

Amaryllis

Inactive
What if gas cost $10 a gallon?

A gallon of milk: $12
A loaf of bread: $4
A dozen eggs: $6

Green's Harley: priceless

For everything else: there's always a chance we'll be able to inhabit another planet
 

Hansa44

Justine Case
At $10/gal I will ride my Harley to work and have my cleaning delivered once a week to the office to change into.

Make sure you keep the Harley with you in your office!! I would also attach machine guns. :sh2: :sldr: cause there will probably be quite a few that will want what you have.:whistle:
 

SarahLynn

Veteran Member
Make sure you keep the Harley with you in your office!! I would also attach machine guns. :sh2: :sldr: cause there will probably be quite a few that will want what you have.:whistle:


THAT is exactly the far wider reaching implication I think we all better start thinking seriously about.
 

Hermit

Inactive
It's kind of funny that the OP thinks trendy rooftop gardens would pick up the slack for the lack of affordable supermarket foods. I also agree with Dennis.
 

TECH32

Inactive
We'll never hit $10/gal. I keep saying, and firmly believe, that at the $8 mark we'll start TAKING oil from whomever we damn well please. The American public will demand it.
 

William

Veteran Member
This works for me.. This is a nice road trip that I took a couple of week ago
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0273-a.jpg
    IMG_0273-a.jpg
    75.8 KB · Views: 440

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
We'll never hit $10/gal. I keep saying, and firmly believe, that at the $8 mark we'll start TAKING oil from whomever we damn well please. The American public will demand it.


Hmmm... and how well do you suppose that attempt will work out? Short of some type of weapon which simply wipes out the entire population of a country or region (leaving no one to protest our "taking" the oil), any attempt to do so is likely to be incredibly expensive, messy and totally counterproductive.

The US military already uses more fuel than any other entity or purpose.

That said, if it gets much higher than it already is, life will change to the extent that much of what people currently worry about won't even be on the radar. "Eating out LESS?" HA! Try "worrying about whether or not your kids are malnourished, and dumpster diving to improve their diets". "Riding to work on a motorcycle".. well, like others mentioned, are you going to be able to protect that bike during work hours? Or, probably a bigger problem- will your employer still be in business at $10 a gallon fuel?

The rise from $1 a gallon to $4 a gallon was the easy part. From here on in, it's going to get real ugly.

Summerthyme
 

TECH32

Inactive
Hmmm... and how well do you suppose that attempt will work out? Short of some type of weapon which simply wipes out the entire population of a country or region (leaving no one to protest our "taking" the oil), any attempt to do so is likely to be incredibly expensive, messy and totally counterproductive.

Take over everything from the pumps to the tankers and shoot anyone or anything who gets within 3 miles. Easy. Messy, but easy. And at $8/gal, the American people will CHEER the troops for doing it.
 

mbabulldog

Has No Life - Lives on TB
This guy is out of his mind, "only a recession".

for example; a lot of parked planes means pilots and stewardesses out of work. cleaners of those planes out of work. all the suppliers closed down and out of work.

No one will be eating pizza because the transportation costs of that pizza will mean that pizza costs in excess of $35/dollars, minimum. So, that being said, the pizza industry goes into the shitter, taking all the jobs of that industry with it.

ECONOMICS 101:Where the jobs go, so does the economy. If people ain't working, they ain't spending...This guy is a schmuck.
 

Warandra

Membership Revoked
There would certainly be no uprising nor rioting from the sheeple of this nation. Why?

Sheeple don't riot.
 

von Koehler

** In Timeout **
...only a recession, not a depression? Where is she scoring that good a weed?

Actually, $10 a gallon is rapidly approaching...soon after Israel/neo-con's engineer their long wished for attack on Iran.

Personally, I am planning on using a bicycle.

Oh, by the way Tech32, the Saudi's already have their oil intrastructure rigged to blow, so don't think you are going to able to seize it.

Flavius Aetius
 

Walker10

Veteran Member
I think Dennis is right. Once you look at the distances Americans travel, the distances food and goods travel, the inability of tapped out Americans to afford $10.00/gal. gas (and what would diesel be priced at if gas is $10.00?), a depression would be the MINIMUM we could expect.

There just isn't the public transportation infrastructure in the US to compensate for these types of fuel price increases. Also, how would people who are in hock up to their eyeballs in debt be able to make the transition to better mileage vehicles such as motorcycles/mopeds, etc. I just don't see us being able to make the adjustment in time if the prices keep increasing at the rate they have in the past year or so.

Just another example why so many of us prep and WHY it's a good idea.
 

Laurane

Canadian Loonie
If prices get that high.....

my DH fully expects to see tanks in our streets in Alberta, as the USA secures its supply from the Oil Sands.

We could do little about it and the oil would flow to the US refineries where they already process our oil into gasoline then send it back to us.

But if that happened, the US soldiers would be working overtime against the "saboteurs" and guerilla fighters, who would not want to give up what is ours so easily.

Would be very nasty......and Canada is the next obvious target......after Mexico.
 

Walker10

Veteran Member
Take over everything from the pumps to the tankers and shoot anyone or anything who gets within 3 miles. Easy. Messy, but easy. And at $8/gal, the American people will CHEER the troops for doing it.
I see what you're saying and why TECH, but this may not even be an option.

A few years ago I read an article that described how the Saudi's had 'doomsday' type of devices rigged around at least some of their oil production facilities in case a scenario like this was attempted.
 

Loon

Inactive
What did folks do before the gasoline powered engine?

I think the our personal world will shrink and we'll stick closer to home. We'll trade with our local merchants and we'll have to learn to do with basics and no foreign imports of much.

Some industries will cease to exist.

Those who have the tools and knowlege will survive just fine. Those that don't will either turn to crime to steal what they need or they'll die trying.

Public transportation will become more popular as well little mopeds and bicycles and itty bitty cars.............just like over in Europe.
 

Marthanoir

TB Fanatic
If gas reaches $10 a gallon then you'll be on a par with is here in the Euro Land atthe moment unless we go upto $40 a gallon that is
 

Scotto

Set Apart
This guy is out of his mind, "only a recession".

ECONOMICS 101:Where the jobs go, so does the economy. If people ain't working, they ain't spending...This guy is a schmuck.

He is a schmuck alright.

What about tourism? People will be having a hard enough time affording what they NEED, and all of that stuff will go away. Disneyland can't afford to stay open for just the uber-rich. How many people are employed by relying on tourism?

If gas got that high, the largest percent of the population would ONLY be buying neccessities. No eating out, or long drives to the beach. Good will stores would be all the rage. Our cities would look like China with all of the bicycles we'd have going. The skies would all be about empty of airplanes. How many people do the airlines alone employ?

If people think the food banks are being depleted now, they ain't seen nothin' yet. Restuarants are empty now, and many are very stressed. So are the coffee shops. How many people do you think restuarants employ in the U.S.?

Times are tough NOW. These dorks that write this drivel need to grab their necks and yank their heads out of their arses, cuz from where I sit it ain't too rosy now, with oil and food as high as it is. Schmuck.
 

TECH32

Inactive
...only a recession, not a depression? Where is she scoring that good a weed?

Actually, $10 a gallon is rapidly approaching...soon after Israel/neo-con's engineer their long wished for attack on Iran.

Personally, I am planning on using a bicycle.

Oh, by the way Tech32, the Saudi's already have their oil intrastructure rigged to blow, so don't think you are going to able to seize it.

Flavius Aetius

There's plenty of places we can take oil from. Venezuala is one. Northern Africa is another. Not to mention Iraq, and, of course, Iran.

And don't be so sure the Saudi's would blow things sky high to keep us from taking their oil. They don't seem like the types who'd be willing to slit their own throats. If we promised them a kick-back of $25 a barrel along with some neat US military gear, I'm sure they'd take it rather than get $0.
 

Loon

Inactive
Marthanoir has a point. If we want to know what life will be like with super high gasoline prices just look at the countries that are already paying that much and see how life is for them. They seem to be surviving OK so why wouldn't we?
 

ElkHollow

Inactive
Ya know I really think the authors of articles like this are actually afraid to say the word depression for fear of some kind of reprisal for spooking the sheep.. TPTB are not quite ready for that YET!!!

ELK..............................:wvflg:
.
.
.
 

Micah68

Inactive
$10 a gallon gas equals recession?? :lkick:


I think many people would consider it the EOTWATKI.

I have been wondering how big the average suburban yard is? What percentage of their own food could a family of 4 grow if they tore out their grass?

At what point will alot of mothers quit working because the cost of daycare, plus getting to work, is more than they make - or not enough to bother with?

The higher transportation goes, the more things will change. We just need to decide if the changes are for better or for worse.
 

Marthanoir

TB Fanatic
Marthanoir has a point. If we want to know what life will be like with super high gasoline prices just look at the countries that are already paying that much and see how life is for them. They seem to be surviving OK so why wouldn't we?

We get alot of thefts of heating oil from peoples homes, mainly the holiday homes as they are empty for long periods of time, there has been instances of cars tanks being siphoned or a fuel line cut and drained, theres big business by the organised crime gangs for laundering Agri Diesel removing the dye and selling it to gas stations who sell it as road diesel, but no major break down of society or rioting in the streets,
 

summerthyme

Administrator
_______________
Marthanoir has a point. If we want to know what life will be like with super high gasoline prices just look at the countries that are already paying that much and see how life is for them. They seem to be surviving OK so why wouldn't we?

Loon... it's like comparing apples to oranges. Basically, it's not possible.

Europe is SMALL... it's countries are absolutely tiny compared to the US. They also have well developed, efficient and affordable mass transit... something even the larger cities in the US often haven't done much to facilitate.

The population density in Europe is actually pretty shocking to see... and European relatives who visited us a few years back were literally stunned to see how much "empty" land we have. We live in a rural area, with two houses visible from ours, and on average a house every half mile or so along our road. They perceived that as being "wilderness"... despite the cultivated fields and obvious signs of human habitation. They also said they couldn't conceive of needing to drive as many miles as we do to get to stores, etc.

I suspect that few Europeans need to drive 30 miles or more to work, and while for some folks that's "optional", simply saying "everyone should live closer to their jobs" doesn't exactly cut it... there are many reasons folks choose long commutes... and many of them won't go away just because the price of fuel is sky high.

I personally haven't ever seen the need to drive thousands of miles for recreation, but many people do in the US. In Europe, they can simply hop on a train and go almost anyplace they wish.

It's not only two different worlds- it's almost two different planets.

Summerthyme
 

silent watcher

Senior Member
my DH fully expects to see tanks in our streets in Alberta, as the USA secures its supply from the Oil Sands.

We could do little about it and the oil would flow to the US refineries where they already process our oil into gasoline then send it back to us.

But if that happened, the US soldiers would be working overtime against the "saboteurs" and guerilla fighters, who would not want to give up what is ours so easily.

Would be very nasty......and Canada is the next obvious target......after Mexico.

Terrorist!
 

Loon

Inactive
Then we need to pour more of our resources into mass transit. There is no way around that. If we get to where we can't afford to drive our cars what else is there to do? People are already selling out their rural homes and moving back into the cities to be closer to work. The mass exodus out of the cities is reversing itself. People will adjust their lifestyles in order to survive. We're retired so we aren't going anywhere and we will use our hybrid car for all trips to town from now on.

Now, if the car companies want to make a comeback they need to start cranking out cheap fuel efficient cars pronto.
 

Troke

Deceased
The Cultural Left can hardly containt their glee. Everything is going their way. The Lesser Classes will live frugally, whether they want to or not.

The CL lives in terror of people who live in self-imposed frugality. Such people cannot be controlled. Proper frugality is imposed.
 

Pass Go

Inactive
Anything close to $10 would be a trip-switch for any one of a number of bad things to happen. The comparison of America to Europe can be summed up like this. If you go to and drive all over Europe you'll see that it's no different than living here and driving all over the place at $7+ per gallon, though the point about having the option to drive because of an evolved public transit system is certainly a valid one. BTW, public transportation is Europe ain't that cheap.

It will cause crazy inflation and the underclass and barely-hangers-on now will lose everything; they'll almost certainly revolt. They won't have a choice if they want to eat and survive. After years of liberal handouts, at $8 to $10 the price of gasoline would spawn outlaws and/or gangsters again, especially in the inner city. I believe they will be of quite another ilk though.

Elderly folks? I can't even type it. They are already squeezed between mortgage, heat, food and medicine, and that's not even accounting for a car and all that encompasses. Paying taxes when they have nothing won't sit well. I'm afraid The Greatest Generation will go down in flames.
 

AnnCats

Inactive
Marthanoir has a point. If we want to know what life will be like with super high gasoline prices just look at the countries that are already paying that much and see how life is for them. They seem to be surviving OK so why wouldn't we?

I am always interested to see this kind of "reasoning." Europe can do it, so can we... except that you can go from Italy to Switzerland to Germany and not have covered the distance form New York to Florida... guys, it's NOT the same thing! You'd have to divide up the US into nine or ten countries and most of that would still end up larger than the countries in Europe. They are small, they are local, they do NOT have the huge transportation issues that we have in the US. It's NOT THE SAME.

There are huge differences in travel possibilities, too. America lives in the car and the trucks and the highways. Europe has railroads, buses, trams, and even horse drawn transportation. They can do that because the countries are SMALL! At $10 a gallon a driver in a small efficient car can traverse a whole country on a couple of gallons of gas. Try doing that from New York to the farmland even at the end of the state - $20 of gas won't get you any place. Farmers can't bring their goods to New York city because they cannot afford the $10 gas to get it there - you'll go hungry.

Farming is another whole different deal, too. You aren't getting the huge crops from the huge farms in Europe, they don't have them there. Pasta riots hit Italy because there wasn't enough duram wheat... they can't grow more, they depend on other countries and people with large tractors, lots of water and plenty of transportation to keep the pasta coming and the costs under control.

There are farmers markets and roads lined with small shops in every town and village - you have local in Zurich or Paris or Rome where there isn't any local possibilities here because of America's size. Size does matter and don't go telling us we can adjust and do juust fine with $10 gas. Actually look at the differences and try to understand that our world is going to come to a crashing halt if this isn't dealt with soon.

Deal with it how? I don't know, I just know that anyone who thinks that we're the same as Europe and can adjust to the same constraints that Europe has with their gas and traveling , their food and work possibilities is completely out of their cotton picking mind!
 

Marthanoir

TB Fanatic
I am always interested to see this kind of "reasoning." Europe can do it, so can we... except that you can go from Italy to Switzerland to Germany and not have covered the distance form New York to Florida... guys, it's NOT the same thing! You'd have to divide up the US into nine or ten countries and most of that would still end up larger than the countries in Europe. They are small, they are local, they do NOT have the huge transportation issues that we have in the US. It's NOT THE SAME.

There are huge differences in travel possibilities, too. America lives in the car and the trucks and the highways. Europe has railroads, buses, trams, and even horse drawn transportation. They can do that because the countries are SMALL! At $10 a gallon a driver in a small efficient car can traverse a whole country on a couple of gallons of gas. Try doing that from New York to the farmland even at the end of the state - $20 of gas won't get you any place. Farmers can't bring their goods to New York city because they cannot afford the $10 gas to get it there - you'll go hungry.

Farming is another whole different deal, too. You aren't getting the huge crops from the huge farms in Europe, they don't have them there. Pasta riots hit Italy because there wasn't enough duram wheat... they can't grow more, they depend on other countries and people with large tractors, lots of water and plenty of transportation to keep the pasta coming and the costs under control.

There are farmers markets and roads lined with small shops in every town and village - you have local in Zurich or Paris or Rome where there isn't any local possibilities here because of America's size. Size does matter and don't go telling us we can adjust and do juust fine with $10 gas. Actually look at the differences and try to understand that our world is going to come to a crashing halt if this isn't dealt with soon.

Deal with it how? I don't know, I just know that anyone who thinks that we're the same as Europe and can adjust to the same constraints that Europe has with their gas and traveling , their food and work possibilities is completely out of their cotton picking mind!

:lkick: :lkick: :lkick: 2 gallons of diesel wouldnt even get me as far as the nearest McDonalds let alone across to the other side of the country, I have a 70 mile drive to get to the shops, as for public transport its the same 70 mile drive to get to the train station but i suppose i could take the bus (although we only have one a day)
 

AnnCats

Inactive
:lkick: :lkick: :lkick: 2 gallons of diesel wouldnt even get me as far as the nearest McDonalds let alone across to the other side of the country, I have a 70 mile drive to get to the shops, as for public transport its the same 70 mile drive to get to the train station but i suppose i could take the bus (although we only have one a day)

That's kind of my point! I live in a place that doesn't have a street light or a stop light. We don't have a McDonalds and one of the two hamburger joints just went out of business. We have to spend an hour on the road to get to any kind of town or city with actual shopping olike Safeway or Albertsons or Krogers.

That's why it makes me shake my head is disbelief at the people who think that we can just turn around and live like the Europeans with no problems. When they're starving and realize that the farm is two hours away and the food ain't coming to them, they'll get the idea, but not before that, I'm afraid.
 

Marthanoir

TB Fanatic
That's kind of my point! I live in a place that doesn't have a street light or a stop light. We don't have a McDonalds and one of the two hamburger joints just went out of business. We have to spend an hour on the road to get to any kind of town or city with actual shopping olike Safeway or Albertsons or Krogers.

That's why it makes me shake my head is disbelief at the people who think that we can just turn around and live like the Europeans with no problems. When they're starving and realize that the farm is two hours away and the food ain't coming to them, they'll get the idea, but not before that, I'm afraid.

Yeah same as me but i live in Europe :D
Rural Ireland to be exact,
 
Top